debaser

From the military point of view:


As a whole, we liked the Iraq war. It was an ego boost. We conquered a country with a respectable military (for a developing nation) in less time than it took the Germans to sieze Poland (please don't read any more into the analogy than the speed of success).

We are in the military to do a job. Our job is whatever the CiC says we are to do within the limits of the constitution. If he is lying, it falls on the head of every American to remove him from office, just as the responsibility for using military force ultimately rests on the head of every citizen.

Accuracy? Yes I would always prefer accuracy. As tragic as the deaths of our fine men and women are, the death rate among the expeditionary forces is actually lower than that of a similar size population here in the 'states.

Relevance to topic:

"Liberals" (gawd I hate that misnomer) lie. Conservatives lie. Moderates lie. Libertarians and Greens lie. Such is politics my friend, don't fool yourself into thinking you are on the right side.

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Liquor Dealer

Damn! Thanks Kadath - I owe ya' one.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

smooth

Thank you, Liquor Dealer.

seretogis

This thread was poorly conceived imo, and I have a lot of experience with poorly conceived threads. I think that rather than attack the wording of the initial post, it would be a better idea to let this one die and deal with specific issues brought up here on other threads.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Kadath

Uh, clearly something happened here that I'm sure I don't want to know about. You're welcome, LD.

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it's quiet in here

Hotmix

man really, if i told somebody they sucked and it turned out they didn't. Would you call me a liar?



P.S. It is not our job to prove anything. UN res. said Saddam had to prove he didn't have WMD. So . . .

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Bacon and Cheese!

geep

Before this thread dies, can I just put some input in here as to my take on this whole war? I'd like to explain to kadath what I meant by the world changing.

In 1945 after the fall of Germany to the Allies, Communism rose as the new enemy. Stalin and his country presided over the break up of Germany and confirmed their intention to spread Communism to the rest of the world. This scared the "Free World" allies into a series of political manuevers designed to stop the spread of the Communist ideology The west called this spread the "Domino Theory" and it dictated our international politics for almost 50 years. One part of this policy was the support of dictators who were "at least" not Communists. This led the U.S. into relationships with leaders who were less than desirable. It also lead to people of many countries associating the U.S. with their hated enemies. With the break-up of the Soviet Bloc in the 80's and 90's this pattern of foreign policy remained intact because it had become the "norm", even though it had outlived itself. We still governed our foreign affairs like we did during the Domino Theory era as force of habit. 9/11 changed that. We no longer faced a tangible threat from a specific enemy, but a threat none the less. In some cases this threat was a hatred of the U.S. spawned by our policies from the past. Currently our world is struggling with the response to that threat. How do you deal with an enemy that has no borders, no recognizable governing body? How can you stop a man with a bomb strapped to his chest from killing innocent men, women and children? How do you appease an enemy or compromise with him when his only goal is to kill you? The answer to that is you probably can't, at least not completely. The only avenue we have available is to disrupt the organization that assists them. If we can't stop it completely at least we can make tougher for these people to accomplish their goal of death and destruction. The organized terrorist cells that exist in countries must be dealt with, either by the local government or by someone else if the local government is unable or unwilling to do so. For that reason and that reason alone I supported the war in Iraq. Unfortunately, Iraq and Afghanistan may not be the only countries that need to see the importance of stopping the organization of terrorism. It just seems to me that the world has taken a new tact in international politics. What was prudent then is not prudent now. Things have changed.

As far as this thread is concerned, Liberals do lie although these were not lies. They were "misinformation" tactics- statements designed to cast doubt on the other sides statements (which may or may not have been misinformation also). Don't get me wrong, conservatives lie, too and practice the art of misinformation. Door, your only defense is to be INFORMED. You need to get your information from many sources on both sides of the spectrum, not just from your favorite. Then you need to make you own decision based on the information you have gathered. You may or may not use your emotions to help you decide your opinion, but if you do use emotion in your decision, I strongly suggest that you realize your emotions are not part of your facts supporting your argument

What do you think, kadath? Still think I'm a died-in-the-wool conservative fascist? Remember that these views are my perspective, not a statement of fact. They could indeed be "misinformation" or they could just be the ramblings of a silly old man.

Kadath

No, geep, I wouldn't say you're a fascist. I still take issue with the statement that 9/11 changed everything, but I completely agree with your assessment that the end of the Cold War changed the face of global conflict. The depolarization did provide America with a new multitude of enemies who could no longer be cowed simply by a massive nuclear arsenal. 9/11 was simply an object lesson. However, I don't think that force of arms is the proper solution, nor do I believe sacrificing freedom in the name of security is ever acceptable. I would rather see my whole family die in a terrorist bombing than let the government imprison innocent people unjustly simply because they are the same racial group as a previous terrorist.
But you're not a silly old man.

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it's quiet in here

The_Dude

not to mention took the longest vaction ever for a US president

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

geep

Thanks Kadath