![]() |
![]() |
#1 (permalink) | |||||||
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
FISA court review 2002...
From a 2002 FISA court review, an "upholding" (sarcasm) of the Bush administrations "criminal" and "illegal" actions.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here is yet another example, of the constant false politicking going on here. Bush as the executive is operating within his delegated powers. If my reading of the initial court review case I quoted is correct, it was actually the FISA that was intruding and usurping check and balance power as it violated it's jurisdiction. In borrowing lines thrown out here constantly at us "lumpenconservatives" this is me putting up, not shutting up. I've provided examples from the FISA court and others attesting to the legality of the wiretaps. I wonder if this we go unnoticed or ignored, just like all the evidence that has blasted the false accusations that the Gitmo detentions are illegal. This post took me over an hour to track down the information. It caused me much strain of my legal knowledge as the court document is extremely tough to decipher, so in closing please do me a favor and at least come up with something substantial when responding if you feel so inclined, if I have to tread through more legal jargon I will be compelled to murder suicide. Also on that note, politicophile, you seem to have a very sound understanding on constitutional law, did I read and properly quote the case, cause man my face would be red if I was wrong. THat offer/challenge is extended to anyone else who would wish it upon themselves
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 02-28-2006 at 03:29 PM.. |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
#2 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
Mods feel free to close this. I must've made this thread in some ultra combative manner which was not inviting to dialogue or discussion; I dunno 15+ views and not one response, interesting. Who knows maybe closing it shouldn't even really be an option seems like this thread will die on it's own.
Maybe a rephrasing and emphasis on discussion should be in order. Again I don't know, with all the charges levied here about certain actions under taken by the administration here, people here seem pretty set in their beliefs, thought one of them would've stepped up to the plate on this one. I would've thought this post would've brought out some discussion, my apologies.
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...0/131610.shtml
I'm fairly certain the first article quotes the second one, the court case I quoted really took a lot out of me, hence the double quotation.
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
|
In March 2002, the Attorney General (John Ashcroft) submitted a memorandum to the FISC, requesting approval of newly created information sharing (minimization procedures) and other proposals, to be implemented upon approval at the Department of Justice. The Attorney General's proposed minimization procedures significantly curtailed the information screening walls. In a May 17 opinion (liked above), the FISC granted some of the Administration's newly requested powers, but refused to grant the Justice Department heightened information sharing powers proposed by the Attorney General.
According to the court, "in approving minimization procedures the Court is to ensure that the intrusiveness of foreign intelligence surveillances and searches on the privacy of U.S. persons is 'consistent' with the need of the United States to collect foreign intelligence information from foreign powers and their agents." The opinion states that the Justice Department and FBI supplied erroneous information to the FISC in more than 75 applications for search warrants and wiretaps, including one signed by then-FBI director Louis Freeh. Authorities also improperly shared intelligence information with investigators and prosecutors handling criminal cases on at least four occasions. These abuses were discovered by the Justice Department and reported to the FISC in 2000. In one case, the FISC was so angered by inaccuracies in affidavits submitted to the court that the judges barred the agent responsible from ever appearing again before the FISC. In rejecting the new minimization procedures, the FISC stated that "[i]n virtually every instance, the government's misstatements and omissions in FISA applications and violations of the Court's orders involved information sharing and unauthorized disseminations to criminal investigators and prosecutors." Because of the Administration's history of misuse of FISA authority, the FISC decided that the new procedures proposed by Ashcroft in March would give prosecutors too much control over intelligence investigations, and would allow the government to "end-run" the more stringent Title III wiretap requirements by obtaining information for criminal investigations under the lower FISA standards. "The 2002 procedures appear to be designed to amend the law and substitute the FISA for Title III electronic surveillance and Rule 41 searches." The opinion further illustrates the FISC's perturbation with the lack of response from the Justice Department, which has yet to explain how the misrepresentations and abuses occurred. The Department is still conducting an internal investigation. Under the operative standards, the Justice Department must seek explicit FISC approval before sharing information obtained in a FISA investigation with a criminal investigator or prosecutor. The March memorandum proposed that criminal prosecutors be given routine access to such information, and that they be allowed to direct intelligence investigations when appropriate. Ashcroft filed a formal appeal to the FISC's opinion on August 22, which constitutes the first formal challenge to the FISC in its 23-year history. Until this incident, the FISC has approved all but one FISA application sought by the government since the court's inception. The Court of Review heard the Justice Department's oral argument on September 9. (info from http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/fisa/) Frankly it's all moot. Bush was doing this before 9/11, so the 2002 precedent is irrelevent, in addition to being suspect. George Bush decided to skip seeking warrants for international wiretaps because the court was challenging him at an unprecedented rate. This is my favorite, though: Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#6 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
|
From all accounts I've read, legally speaking, the President is allowed to circumvent warrants entirely if it is on the basis of foreign intelligence, up to an entire year. Building off that, and something was brought up in the court ruling I provided, to reiterate this shit is mindnumbing and I could be misreading it, but the courts held that the president is allowed said powers, and that the acquistion of "foreign intelligence" doesn't have to be the primary goal of a warrantless search.
I don't get how the pre-2002 actions of the administration would make the 2002 ruling moot. As a matter of constitutional law, the courts are the branch that interpret the legality of law, if they found no problem with actions taken prior to 2002, where is the issue? Nevermind the volume of issues brought up prior to the ruling, if the court rules in 2002 that actions and provisions allowed by congressional law that are executed by the president are legal, then it's legal, there is no question. One may harbor some personal offense or disdain for actions, but that doesn't make them illegal in any sense, suspect maybe, but illegal no. Thanks for taking the time to respond Will, really appreciate, hope I properly posted against yours, that's to say in context.
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
|
They (courts) may not know about the actions pre-2002 - or post 2002, and there in lies the problem. Let me explain the roots of the FISA court really quick, and please keep in mind the current situation as it pertains directly to the formation of FISA. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act resulted from extensive investigations into domestic intelligence activities by Senate Committees, led separately by Sam Ervin and Frank Church in the 1970s (see the Church Committee report). By the early years of the 1970s, the unpopularity of the Vietnam war and the unfolding Watergate scandal brought the era of minimal oversight to a screeching halt. The Congress was determined to rein in the Nixon administration and to ascertain the extent to which the nation's intelligence agencies had been involved in questionable, if not outright illegal, activities . A series of troubling revelations started to appear in the press concerning intelligence activities . First came the revelations of Christopher Pyle in January 1970 of the U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population [1] and Sam Ervin's Senate investigations that resulted. The dam broke on 22 December 1974, when The New York Times published a lengthy article by Seymour Hersh detailing operations engaged in by the CIA over the years that had been dubbed the "family jewels." Covert action programs involving assassination attempts against foreign leaders and covert attempts to subvert foreign governments were reported for the first time. In addition, the article discussed efforts by intelligence agencies to collect information on the political activities of US citizens. These revelations convinced many Senators and Representatives that the Congress itself had been too lax, trusting, and naive in carrying out its oversight responsibilities.
So, to summerize, there was a failing war that was launched for clearly political reasons, along with the president being involved in highly suspect behavoir, and newspapers published stories about domestic spying. It was proven by the Church Committee that the executive powers were clearly not responsible enought to operate domestic spying, assasination, etc. without judicial approval (checks and balances). Here we are again, 30 years later, having the same problem. Honestly, I'm exhausted. I'm still worried my response only makes sense to me. Tomorrow I'll give it another shot. Thanks to wikipedia for the above info on FISA and the Church Committee. |
![]() |
Tags |
2002, court, fisa, review |
|
|