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#1 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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The case for espionage
This is a great article and covers just about every corner of the situation. I would suggest that you read this, it is quite long, but it is also very comprehensive. I don't have much of a background in law so I would definitley like to hear what those of you with law backgrounds have to say.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Pr...06advance.html Quote:
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#2 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#3 (permalink) |
seeker
Location: home
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Yup!!.....
Kill the messenger that tells "we the people" what our goverment is doing behind our back. Thou shalt not report our crimes sayeth the lord. What's the difference between the goverment and the mafia again?
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All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.
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#4 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Quote:
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#5 (permalink) |
seeker
Location: home
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Just to expand on this...
let's take a hypothecial situation Let's say the goverment is opereating detainment camps for citizens (political prisoners) Protestors, right wing millita's, ect. Remember now, this is a hypothecial situation, and we are assumeing it is true. Now a newspaper sneakes into the camp takes pictures writes a story, publishes the photos, and classified documents that set up this detainment program. Is that newspaper now commiting espionage? or they protecting the people? The same holds true for this hypothecial situation, and the wire tapping story.....If we are to be consistant in our thinking
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All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.
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#6 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Lets not take a hypothetical situation and focus on the real-life situation at hand first. Re-read the paper and I'll be back on monday.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 02-03-2006 at 01:36 PM.. |
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#7 (permalink) | |
seeker
Location: home
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Quote:
This article (and your comment) simply seeks to reframe the dicusion away from the reality of illegal wiretaps and on to espionage. Well written spin is just more spin
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All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.
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#8 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Quote:
Now I'll disagree with your statement and tell you that the paper does in fact discuss the legality of the wire taps. I started this post asking for people with legal background to share their thoughts on the paper. You obviuosly have none.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#9 (permalink) | |
seeker
Location: home
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I wouldn't say partisan spin because both parties seem intent to keeping goverment secret from the people, and expanding goverment power. And now the justice dept. is investigating the wiretaps Because of the NYT article. So do I need a Masters in criminal justice to know right from wrong?
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All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.
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#10 (permalink) |
pigglet pigglet
Location: Locash
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stevo,
I read the vast majority of the article / paper. In some places I skipped a few words, but I read the whole thing. I'll have to think about it a little bit - but the question I keep coming back to is why not use the methods that are in place to monitor these communications? I've wondered that a few times - the only logical reason I can come up with is a desire to limit a paper trail. I'm not saying that's automatically bad, although it seems it could obviously be abused. The other thought is a curiousity if our government is concerned over infiltration of its intelligence ranks by Al-Queda operatives, etc. Regardless, from what I understand much of the older cases the article points to are most likely moot, as they would be settled using out-of-date legislation. For the Plame reference, it seems that the contention woudl be that the NSA program involves revealing an illegal surveillance program, the Plame leak itself was illegal. So basically, I think it hinges around the legality of the monitoring program. I don't think the president's interpretation of the FISA statute really means shit; its the actual law that matters. This whole nonsense with signing his interpretation of the laws for torture and so forth is pretty weak. I wish I could say that I interpret stealing other's people's shit as not being illegal, so theft doesn't apply to me. That would be great. Hmmm... as far as it being a partisan piece, well it's obviously fairly biased towards the position of the administration, but an interesting read.
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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style |
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#11 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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My ability to be neutral concerning neoconservative beliefs ended with PNAC and the notion of preemptive war.
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#12 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#13 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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![]() After reading the whole article, every word, it's obvious that it's just a reiteration of what's already been said. Becuase it is so easy to get wire taps through the FISA court, and the executive branch (whoever is responsible) still went around it, there is still only one conclusion: the wire taps are illegal. Bush continues to say that FISA would have wasted time, when the average warrent takes less than a few hours with proper documentation ready. Quote:
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Any governmentally classified information that outlines or proves illegal actions by said government cannot remain classified. It is the responsibility of every free thinking man woman and child to ensure that their govnermnet acts legally and ethically. The Times should be applauded for their efforts in our democracy, not dismissed as traitors by those who welcome tryany. Edit: In case it still isn't clear, here's a link to US CODE: Title 50, Chapter 36 -- Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Please read it, as I have, in order to understand what's really going on. Last edited by Willravel; 02-03-2006 at 06:57 PM.. |
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#14 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Gosh, us2, thanks for the recommendation. No "Commentary" link yet, but I did find this interesting article:
TruthOut Link Quote:
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#15 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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the main real point is that anyone who knowingly divulges classified information should be prosecuted, HOWEVER, if that 'whistleblower' is revealing something that is illegal then they should NOT be prosecuted.
It's like this, if a bystander calls 911 for an arrmed robbery, you don't arrest the 911 caller.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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#16 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Quote:
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#17 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#18 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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couldn't he have listened and then got the warrents after the fact? I don't see how that would have slowed him down in the least..... |
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#19 (permalink) | |
pigglet pigglet
Location: Locash
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Quote:
I did some googling on the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act - I'll post sources later maybe, but I'm in something of a rush. From what I can see, it looks like the federal intelligence employee would report the issue to the Office of the Inspector General or a similar entity. If the OIG found the issue credible, they would report the issue to the Intelligence Committees. I know that both of these comittees are currently chaired by the Republican party, and I believe I heard that the heads of these committees are the very same people who the Executive consulted with concerning the program in the first place. From what I have read, the paper that broke the story sat on it a year. My guess is that it may have been reported internally through the OIG / intelligence committees, or it was obvious that the information had made its way as far as it was going to. Even if it wasn't reported through the OIG, the people to whom it would have been reported were already in possession of the knowledge. If the NSA employees / journalists / whomever else felt they had participated in / uncovered illegal activities - what recourse would they have if the information was stalled in committee? Let's assume that we're not talking about wiretapping, but we're talking about putting balloons full of hydrochloric acid into the rectums of irish children of ages 10-12, abducted from portions of the Appalachian Mountains, as part of some secret government program to test the resistance of Celtic sphincter tissue to chemically aggressive environments. Its headed under the NSA/FBI. I think it's absolutely clear that such a program would be unethical and illegal, where you may not feel the wiretapping issue is as clear cut. If this information has been reported to the Intelligence Committees via the established channels, and they are sitting on it...do the people with knowledge of the program have an ethical responsibility to bring light to the issue? Is the government protected from responsbility for illegal actions, as long as they are deemed classified in nature? If you say the government is protected, I don't understand how that is consistent with a conservative position of limited government with limited federal powers. If you say it is not, then the issue involving the wiretapping story centers not around how the information was broken, but around whether or not the program is illegal. At least, it seems that way to me.
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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style |
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#20 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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1) The "proper channels" is the media itself. Our current situation. 2) The proper channel is .... what else? Some government oversight committee established by the government itself? Pardon me if I doubt the ability of the government to keep itself in check when the public doesn't know what's going on.
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This space not for rent. |
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#21 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Quote:
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#22 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i have read the op article a couple of times now and frankly find it to be a really weak piece of writing. the central problem is the shift it makes between sections 2 and 3.
here: Quote:
basically, if you find this article to be interesting at all, you have to buy this shift. it is not obvious logically--in fact, it seems to me little more than a thinly papered-over non sequitor. why? the question of whether the bush administration--a political formation--is bound to act within the law or not ***is not the same*** as that of whether the ny times did. reverting for a moment to the realm of political theory: if you somehow manage to take john locke's 2nd treatise on government seriously (it is not easy), you find that locke defines tyranny as the type of power exercized by a government in violation of its own laws. beneath this is the question of how strictly one should understand the notion of popular soveregnity at issue in this is the following: the state (switching terms here) is the origin of law--but it fashions law because it (at the level of sentences at least) rests of the authority delegated to it from the people. this is important because this relation poses limits to state action--the state cannot operate outside the laws that circumscribe it and its actions--as the origin of law, there would be a constant danger that the state could arrogate to itself a position that is at once inside and outside it (as a function of the ambivalent position occupied by a material source relative to that which flows from it). it is this threshold that, in the end, distinguishes a legitimate government from tyranny (monarchy in the context of locke, dictatorship in the contemporary context). the typical counterargument that you see from the administration rests entirely on the notion of the state of emergency or war. the defenses that the administration has floated for tis actions lean heavily on the legal theory of carl schmitt (this is so consistent a feature of the defenses that it cannot be an accident---i think john yoo is heavily influenced by schmitt--the folk who repeat this style of argument probably never read yoo's famous memo, and if they did, did not check the references--but that is speculative)---schmitt was a german legal theorist whose better-known works were published in the 1920s---he was opposed to democracy in principle, arguing that it was incapable of acting in a state of emergency or war with adequate speed--what was needed was a Leader who would emerge through the context of a state of emergency (suspension of ordinary law) and whose function would be legitmate,for schmitt, because the Leader as able to make Decisions--which, he argues, democracies cannot do. for schmitt, democracies are hopelessly caught up in the abstract--where the Leader can deal with the concrete---democracy is subject to interminable debate (a correlate of its abstractness), where the Leader/dictator can Act---the Leader, in a state of exception (emergency, war) embodies the nation in a situation that requires the suspension of popular sovereignty--democracy threatens the "nation" (whatever the hell that is) with fragmentation in such a context. these two positions are obviously antithetical: locke is arguing for popular sovereignty and claims that the idea that a governmental apparatus derives its legitmacy from the people, from their delegation of power to it, means that it canot operate outside its own legal framework without becoming a tyranny. schmitt is a theory of dictatorship that uses a notion of the exceptional state (of emergency, of war) to legitimate precisely that kind of government. the center of this relationship is, self-evidently, the question of the "exceptional state" or state of emergency. so the question of whether the administration did or did not violate the law in its various adventures legitimated via their favorite fiction, the "war on terror" comes down to a question of the relation of the state apparatus to the legal system. this relation is fundamental to the legal and political regime itself. the question of actions undertaken by the ny times operates entirely within the existing legal and political order: as a corporation, the paper is not involved in any way with the question of the balance of power that will obtain at the center of this legal and political order if there is a criminal aspect to their actions in the plame case (to rehearse the terms of the article) then it is a matter of application of law, not one of the relation between law itself and the state that originates it. these registers are different in kind. in the articles, this basic distinction is papered over via a simple assertion of "relevance" backed by nothing at all--it is a kind of weak writing and weak reasoning unworthy of a university undergraduate paper. the problem with this is that this transition is asolutely necessary for the article, which follows this bait and switch down a curious logical path to end up in an attack on the ny times. rather than make an actual argument for the linkage of two matters that are, to my mind, unrelated, what the writer does it begin piling on the conservative affirmations of faith as you move into the second section of the article--cheap devices like the assertion (also grounded in nothing) of some kind of anti-bush administration biais in the times--piles of assertions that the writer uses as a substitute for substantive argumentation. the conclusion of the piece appears to be: the problem here is not that the bush administration appears to have broken the law in a whole host of ways and tried to justify all by referring to its "war on terror"-the problem is, rather, that the press (a generalization from the nyt) reports on these violations. the justification for it is a rather bland "the law is the law"--but leaving it at this would create all kinds of trouble for such logic as there is in the article--so this gets blurred into typical conservative whining about the "hostility" of the press to the poor bush administration. correlate: my car will not start so could you plunge the toilet? what's kinda funny in this is that i remember the tenor of the right's endless attacks on the clinton administration for what it took to be its various violations of law: all most of them, focus was on the lockean position. now that the bushpeople are at the helm, the focus shifts to schmitt. this would be bizarre were we not, by now, accustomed to such from the curious world of right ideology. the upshot of this kind of article is that conservative political thought systematically uses the language of matters of principle to talk about matters of tactics. this is not the kind of reasoning that a traditional conservative movement would engage with: while one might disagree with more traditional conservatism, at least it is able to distinguish principle from tactics. the american right appears to be unable to do so, and in that inability positions itself as something quite dangerous--a kind of authoritarian movement that speaks to itself, about itself, in the language of the right, but is in fact different, and fundamentally different, from traditional right formations. at the level of legal theory, the administration's flaks in the right press have embraced a legal philosophy central to the rise of fascism without realizing that it is doing so (so it seems--dont know this for sure---things only get worse if you assume that "they" know about schmitt and have embraced his legal philosophy consciously.) at the same time, the writer of the article sees in the exposing of such violations of law the "real problem"--and so you get a argument for de facto censorship---reporting on certain types of violations of law carried out by an admnistration can itself invovle violation of the law--the writer appears to think that unless the press is silenced, any prosecution of the administration for its actions is hypocritical. this is absurd. what the article presents is an argument for authoritarian government. such case for the bushpeople's violations of law as it presents are a subset of this larger argument.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 02-10-2006 at 07:47 AM.. |
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#23 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Quote:
And the way I see the leak as it pertains to the wiretapping story isn't some whistleblower concerned about wrongdoing. The intelligence committee is headed by republicans, but it is a bipartisan committee. There are 8 republicans and 7 democrats. They all received the same info from the administration. What I think this all comes down to is a democrat on the committee (imo Feinstein) seeing an opportunity to leak some classified info that she (or he) knows will cause an outcry against bush in just another attempt by powerless democrats to bring down the bush administration. And, as expected, people take the bait and run. But in the end nothing will come of it but the destruction of an intelligence gathering program. Right after 9-11 there was a huge outcry. How could we not have the information. How could this have happened. Now when we have plans in place and are taking steps to keep it from happening again theres a huge outcry. To quote Joe Quimby, "You people are a bunch of pickled mush-heads." (followed by applause from the people).
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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