If I'm not online, does this thread exist?
 

:confused:

I IM therefore I am

No it does not actually exist, all you see is light emitted by your screen in a pattern, that pattern is determined by a sequence of magnetic points on a disc in a computer, but nowhere does this "thread" exist in and of itself.

Sure it does, you don't think information exists?

Does it mater? The important part is that it will still be here when you get back.

Nope, information is an abstract concept that does not actually exist, it merely an interpretation of reality.

I'm still of the school of seeing is believing. I came, i saw therefore in that time it existed.

Well it is a concept but it realates to reality and it fits in with our universal model thus it's not abstract.

<edited spelling>

It exists in the moment(s) that you see it. You only exist in the ongoing present as well. The next moment isn't ever here until it's present, and the past is a memory, which only exists in the mind. Although i'd say it still exists in the realm of thought and memory, dreams and higher energy of which our spirit is part of.

? who knows, it could be right ;)

You could argue that it exists in a quantum half-state, like shoedinger's (sp?) cat.

it may not be on your computer all the time, but its on some computer somwhere, so it exists in some place.

Right. The real question, much like Schrodinger's Cat, is whether or not the thread exists when no one is viewing it or checking it's existence in any way.

ok but isnt that similar to a book then.

for example the dead sea scrolls....no one was reading them, or checking their existance and they were lost in some cave in jordon..does that mean that they didnt exist on some level at any point in time?

i'd have to say no..and if no, then why is electronic information any different?

It's not, it exists on a server in a series of binary code interpreted by the users computer, it is as real as any written inforamtion

I'd argue that that's all that does exist, knowledge/information.

That doesnt matter. As long as it behaves as if it exists all the time.

On a philisophy standpoint, for something to exist, man has to be aware of it. To have witnessed it. The world stops existing as you sleep, for you are not conscient of your environment.
This thread. you have created it. You're aware of its existence. However, do you know it? Its possible, that while your offline, someone has posted something on it, and your knowledge about the thread has become something inacurrate. The world is something in constant evolution.
So if you standpoint changes from a yourself view, to a humanity view, there is a constant awareness of things, and they don't stop existing when one of them stops being directly aware of it.
or something.

ok biznatch.. i agree totally with what you said.. i really do....

but what about long lost documents like the dead sea scrolls for example..since no one was aware of them, what kind of existance did they have?

I'd say they got pretty bored and lonely.

And I still say that information, in and of itself, does not actually exist, it is merely an abstract conception. Just like thought itself doesn't exist, it's merely what you conceive from electronic pulses in nuerons.

If thoughts didnt actually exist, you would not be able to think.

Thoughts are merely interpreted physical events, and besides, who says that I think? In fact, a great many people who know me would support the idea that I don't.

The dead sea scrolls existed. The information they contain did not, or existed only through other media.

This thread does not exist for the OP when he is not here. It most likely has changed into something else as the information whithin changes.

I know that thoughts an interpretations of physical events but what is the actual thought? As you said they are "electronic pulses in nuerons". Thus they are very real.

One must not confuse the function of a process with the actual process. Only our interpretations are subjective, the real world exists in one form or another. The machinery behind our thoughts exists, without it thoughts would not exist. We can interpret this process of thought and our interpretation becomes subjective but the process remains real.

They did not exist until we became aware of them, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, they were out there, but existence is based on validation, and objects have no consciousnes to self-validate. So, until someone is aware of an object, it does not exist.

As far as thoughts being real, thoughts are what make us real. They are the one thing that make us certain of or existence "I think therefore I am". Thoughts are real, however, they are ephemerous. They also evolve, they are filtered by your own brain without your awareness of it, and you can't be sure of what exactly lies in your own head(ever wonder about those weird dreams you can't understand?). What we do know is that they're real, even if sometimes (as disturbing as it is) we can't explain our own opinions or their origins.
About the dead sea scrolls. They have existed; parchments have been found, and carbon dated. However, they are decrepit and old, and their state has changed.
But awareness of the existence of something, and knowledge of something are two very different things...You know that you exist, but can you really know your own self? here again, problems of different perspectives take place.

You're all too far blending physical reality with metaphysical reality. The Dead Sea Scrolls (the paper, the ink, etc..) physically exist. However, since the very word knowledge connotes having been learned by someone, the knowledge they contained (likely) was not known by anyone. Metaphysically, they did not exist.

Likewise, the physical reality of this thread exists. It is contained on a hard drive, in the form of binary 0's and 1's. When it is updated, it continues to exist, but merely with more bits. In a metaphysical way, if you have no way of knowing that someone posted to it, it no lonhnger exists. Your mental representation (metaphysical) is no longer the correct representation of the physical object.

this is only true if you define reality was what man is currently perceiving, which i don't believe is true.

regardless of whether we are here to perceive (i prefer 'interpret' -- <a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00019F6C-E9EC-1329-A41C83414B7F0000">Scientific American</a>) reality, it's there. when all humans disappear, do you think the earth will disappear, since man isn't here to be aware of it?

i'm going to kill you all....muhahahahahahah!



(shuts eyes)

Mantus <- *poof!*

Does this thread exist physically? yes, on a computer somewhere the memory of what goes on here is inscribed in 0's and 1's which are "dips" and not dips" on a disc somewhere. Will that physical thing cease to exist if there were no humans to witness it?

Did hieroglyphics incribed on tombs in pyramids cease to exist when no living being could read them? The physical particles don't know the difference in being known or not known so they continue to act as they would whether we understand them or not.
So yes, the physical impression of this thread still exists when no one is looking at it.

Does this information (0's and 1's fed to a computer that results in light emissions from the monitor being interpretted by your brain as thoughts and words) in the thread still exist when no one can read them?

Once again, for years we had no idea how to read hieroglyphics. Some, we didn't yet know existed for they were in hidden tombs. But once the rosetta stone was found and we could interpret it through the greek the world still knew, the knowledge that the hieroglyphics stood for was known once again. It existed, and physically it had not changed at all or been lost or altered in the time it was not known.

But what about inscriptions that have been rubbed clean by the seasons? We can't read them, understand them, nor will we ever be able to. The information there, the knowledge it used to represent does not exist except in the past. It no longer exists.

So to get to my point, This thread exists until all physical traces of it (including the brain cells of all the people witnessing it) have been completely erased. It would still exist in the past, but it would no longer exist.

I think for this logic to work though, you'd have to be considering reality to be whatever would be percieved by a completely unbiased viewpoint. Completely objective, which humans aren't capable of. We're always seeing as the subject, we are always here in the middle of things, always present. While we're alive anyway.

But I think there has to be some kind of seeing-every-second-of-everything all-pervasive recording device out there somewhere. Not that it could ever go back to look at whatever it's recording, but just "knowing" or "recording" what must have undisputedly happened.

Because you /know/ that whatever happened-- happened. We don't know what really happened, there's a lot of possibilities, but that doesn't change the fact that whatever truly happened will always remain "what happened".

if that makes any sense.

Of course the thread exists. You, on the other hand....
:)

I think this question is just the "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound" problem rehashed. I would say that, even if there was no one to ehar the tree, the tree damn well did make a sound. To say otherwise is to suggest that the tree making a sound is somehow dependant on that sound being percieved by someone, which seems to cause some problems with physical reality - if conscious beings cease to exist will all things cease to exist because they are no longer being observed? Assuming an evolutionary standpoint, did nothing therefore exist before there was consciousness? I'm tempted to say no - the universe will likely be here much longer than we will (I'm not trying to open up a different can of worms here), and it seems counterintuitive to say that it will cease to exist as conscious perception of it does, or that it's existance is somehow dependant on conscious perception.

I figure, that either I'm nothing or your nothing. Perhaps I'm the centre of the Universe and you only exist when I think about you. Or perhaps the centre of the universe is a billion billion miles or so that -> way, in which case we're all nothing, perfectly inconsequencial. Since I have no way of knowing which of these is reality, I think its only fair that I choose. Don't worry tho, y'all were gonna be nothing either way.

So, to sum up. I'm everything, your nothing, thread only exists when I see it.

EVERYTHING is of course debatable.. but after only looking at the first few posts.. I decided that in my opinion this came closest to the truth.. :thumbsup:

Yes this thread does exist. Just as the Dead Sea Scrolls existed for all of those years. This whole thing about things only existing when you perceive them only applies to you specifically. Sure, the dead sea scrolls didn't exist to anyone for all of those years but they DO exist to you, and as you are aware that they were there all of that time as far as you're concerned they existed all of that time.

Time is meaningless, all that is important is now. At the moment you are reading this the thread exists, and once you leave you continue to be aware that it exists. Only when you forget about it does it cease to exist. You don't know the specifics but you do know that there are specifics, and that's enough to consider it still there.

Remember, only the present matters. As far as you're concerned, nothing existed before your birth. But once you were born and learned about all of the universe those things began to exist. At the moment all of the past completely exists, and all of the future stretching for an eternity exists. But as soon as you die all of existence ends.

If we apply this same logic to the tree falling in a forest story, as long as you know that the tree fell in the forest and that trees make sounds when they fall, it really did make a sound. It doesn't matter if anyone else was there at the time, because you know and that's all that matters.

Of course this thread exsists. I'm reading it right now. You guys are silly! :crazy:

What thread????

you never existed to me ... and you're never gonna prove it either ... this thread is a product of evolution and random forces ... it has no creator :p

I think it's pointless to debate this topic... But yes this exact frequency, of light is constantly being emmitted, and does exist, and whenever you percieve this exact frequency due to the structure of your mind you will be able to understand it. Does the information exist whether you percieve it.... It exists sure you but you don't recognize it. I guess it's best put the potential exists for that information to be accessed.

But really this is a debate over semantics not anything meaningful...
\
Edit a good analogy

If you're flying a plane, then land, and leave it.. is the plane flying now? No...

Does flying exist? yes.. becasue the potential exists... whether or not anyone's flying...

Thus if you're not percieving the color red the, the color red does exist because the potential is there....

One's reality is only what that person makes of it. Really crazy people are sane people with a different view of things. To me, this thread did not exist until I just now found it. If someone had asked me before I'd have to say honestly that I did not know, but that I assumed no such thread existed. Now I can say that such a thread does exist. However, in my dog's reality, this thread does not exist.

Furlicker, according to the dot below your name, you're offline right now. I can say with great certainty that this thread exists, because I am posting to it and viewing it. Hope that answers your question.

Of course, that's if you can trust me...