Strange Famous

Apologies if this was posted before, but I searched and couldnt find... Im just interested in how a cross section of people view Jesus.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ninety09

I think he was a normal person suffering from schizophrenia.

irateplatypus

i don't think the second and third options are mutually exclusive.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Strange Famous

my understanding is that the Messiah was supposed to be a human descendant of David?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

irateplatypus

here is a list of judaic criteria for the messiah that seems to be generally accepted.

while was certain that the messiah was supposed to come from the Davidic line... i haven't found much documentation for the jews requiring that he actually be God and man like Christians believe about Jesus. maybe i was assuming things from my Christian perspective that aren't a part of Jewish theology.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

SecretMethod70

I would state that I believe 2, 3, and 4. Jesus was fully human and fully divine - this is a necessary belief in Christianity.

EDIT: Come to think of it, 6 would apply as well.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

asaris

Actually, depending on how you define things, I could say all of 1 through 6. (C.S. Lewis, for example, describes Christianity as "true myth".)

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

SecretMethod70

Completely forgot about that. Yes, I would agree with that as well.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

MageB420666

As far as I understand the prophesies for the mesiah, he was only supposed to create a better physical world. the messiah prophecy had nothing to do with the afterlife or salvation from eternal damnation. The prophecies were changed by the followers of Jesus after his death to try and fit them to him in a effort to make him seem the mesiah. Suddenly instead of the messiah creating a type of heaven on earth(peace and love among all mankind), it was, oh wait, that's not what was really meant, it actually meant that if you believe in Jesus and ask for forgiveness you'll be saved in the AFTERlife.

So I had to vote for something else. I think that Jesus could be better compared to a cult leader, because Christianity was just a cult for the first few hundred years it was around. He gathered a group of followers that radically went against many of the "modern" beliefs, a.k.a. a cult.I do not believe he was the son of God or a true prophet, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't a rabbi, although he was Jewish. As for being a trickster and a fraud, I doubt it, as far as I've heard he wasn't exploiting his followers and mooching off of them for personal gain.

Oh, and 1 and 4 are really the same thing, the Christian god, Jewish god, and Islamic god are all the same god(except for the Christian inclusion of Jesus), and since a true messenger of God is a prophet, if you believe in one, you beleive in the other, because Allah and God are one and the same.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

:::OshnSoul:::

A mortal man who was a true messenger of God

btw- I noticed how you only put that one in italics- how come?

DEI37

The italics is the indication of the option you voted for.

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Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Rdr4evr

I believe Jesus is a myth, a fictional figure blown out of proportion. "All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people." I don't believe in any so called prophet for that matter. The whole idea behind prophets is hypocritical and senseless.

:::OshnSoul:::

AH! lol, silly me...........

irateplatypus

and yet those who did write about him were nearly all martyred for their testimony that he was the Son of God. i understand someone being reluctant to ascribe divinity to Jesus, but the case for him being a complete fabrication is tough to make.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Rdr4evr

I just find it hard to believe considering all accounts of Jesus are hearsay. If such a man existed and in fact did do all the unearthly things that he did, you would think someone would write about it DURING his life, not years after the fact, no?

I refuse to believe Jesus did exist, and I refuse even more so to believe that without accepting him as my savior that I will be turned away from "heaven". This goes for all religions.

irateplatypus

hopefully this isn't straying too far from SF's thread purpose... my apologies if it is.

if Jesus were to be born today... i would fully expect some contemporary record of his life to endure two thousand years from now. we're talking about another culture two millenia ago. a time and place where oral transmission of knowledge was the order of the day. a jew from that time reading your last post might respond "why would i need to write it down? i saw it with my own eyes!" literacy was rare, implements for writing were expensive... we're talking about a completely different paradigm for the spread of knowledge.

additionally, those that wrote about Christ probably just didn't have a frickin clue what he was all about during his ministry. there were many people claiming to be the messiah at his time. jesus didn't even fit the mold the theologians of the day thought the messiah would arrive in. they thought he would be an ass-kicking conquerer to free them from roman oppression, not a humble carpenter. it's entirely probable that they just didn't grasp the gravity of the situation till it was over. if a man can appear to do wondrous miracles and charismatically deliver a challenging message, he'll draw crowds... but everything starts hitting the fan when he beats death. if the narrative of Jesus is true, there is a decent chance that his followers wouldn't have considered writing it down for the ages (given their oral culture) till the full impact of his ministry resonated through the region.

one more thing, accounts of Jesus aren't hearsay. many of them are firsthand accounts... but only written years after the actual experience.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

tecoyah

In My opinion, Jesus was an Avatar, Much like the Buddah and others.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

rfra3645

Absolutely right on...

that would basically be the same thing as really any biography its always done after the fact the new testament or a good part of it is just that a biography of Jesus written after the fact. As irate said writing back in that time period was expensive and rare in the majority of people’s lives. There is an awful lot of written material from that time period you just don’t know about. There are buildings full of writings of that time just verry few can read it and few less know about it.. I have to believe there are 3rd party accts of what he did written in the same week or month that it happened..

i understand it would take someone who is capable of beliving in something to get this.....

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this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

LoganSnake

I, also, favor the Myth option. I think that if such person really existed, he could very well be a healer or some sort (energy, herbal, manual, etc) but him being the son of god is pretty far fetched.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

radioguy

definitely the son of god, plain and simple

SecretMethod70

The way in which we know about Jesus is not all that different from the way in which we know about Socrates, yet Socrates is accepted as having been a real person. Like irate said (in an excellent and completely "on" post I might add), I can understand someone choosing to believe that Jesus was simply a nice guy and that stories of him have gotten out of hand, but believing he didn't exist is just something I don't see as a realistic option.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

GMontag

No they aren't. None of the gospels were actually written down by the people they were named after. The earliest manuscripts of the gospels date from well after all the people in them would have died.

SecretMethod70

That's not entirely true. While I agree that the Gospels were likely not written by the people they are named after, the earliest Gospel if I'm not mistaken was written around 70AD - a time at which the apostles were likely still alive.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Rdr4evr

Either way I still believe he is a myth. I don't care how anyone puts it, if you want to use literacy or expense or whatnot as an excuse, that is fine, but I don't buy it. Even two thousand years ago, if someone saw a man return from the dead or walk on water, an eye-witness would find some kind of way to get some kind of message down during his life, if they could record other things, they could certainly record something as incredible as Jesus’ supposed miracles.

I will leave it at that as I am out-numbered here and no matter what I say you guys will say that I am wrong because you are Christians yourselves, its a lose lose situation.

But until Christ comes down from above and damns my soul to the depths of hell for not accepting him, I won’t believe he ever existed.

Now if you'll excuse me, half time is over, I need to get back to the game.

asaris

Actually, it makes sense they were written somewhat later (I think Mark actually might be 60s); they were written as the eyewitnesses were starting to die, so that there would be a record for the next generation. Before then, people just talked with the eyewitnesses themselves.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

chance

I've heard about the whole schizophrenia thing, and it's pretty strange. To think that Jesus was a schizophrenic would make a lot of sense.

Strange Famous

Well, just to add my own thoughts. I am certain in myself that Jesus was historically a real person - I find the claims that he was a myth as realistic as someone claiming Augustus was a myth as well. I am open to the idea that Jesus was divine, but I cant be certain. I do believe in God - and I would go along with the fact that all of the major religions do seem to talk about the same God - and I think Jesus preached an ideal of God that I find attractive. My understanding of Jesus was that he he told people Mosiac law was not so important, that no religious authority on earth held the key to the gates of the Kingdom of the Father... but that the Kingdom was with every person, inside them and outside of them, that to know the Kingdom it was not necessary to practive ceremony or obey 1000 year old Jewish social customs, but it was only necessary to do what is good, to not lie to God, to know yourself and open yourself - When you know yourselves you shall be known"...

The fundamentalist Christians who believe homosexuals burn in hell, the fundamentalist Muslims who treat women as third class citizens, the observant Jews who still follow millenia old ceremonies... all of this I think is opposite to what Jesus taught. I think what he really meant was that everyone has a relationship with God internally, that it is not of this world, that the Kingdom is the part of us we do not know... that hell is not a place of Satanic torment, but "hell" is a state of lacking self understanding, of being lost, that the kingdom is open to all who have understanding, from those who do the greatest good to those who do the greatest evil in this world.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

For the most part, I would have to say I agree with Strange Famous's assessment. Sure I would alter some wording here and there, but I think he is generally correct.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

TawG

I find this highly unlikely. We're not talking modern times, most people didnt live untill they were 80-100 in biblical times. Life expetancy back then must have been something around 40 years tops for someone like the apostles.

And one of these apostles actually traced Jesus' bloodline back to king David/Davis and the grandfather (Josef? moses? dont remember) for all the jews. Allthough i doubt these researches were accurate or done in such a manner that they could be called proof of him beeing messiah.

As for the whole thing, Jesus lived, and he died. Lets leave it at that. Any attempt at diving deeper into the whole issue i find destructive, and its probably best to forget all about him and the cruelties he brought into the world.

martinguerre

I believe Jesus Christ is Lord. In that affirmation, i join generations of Christians...dating back to the earliest church.

Dubya is not Lord. John Kerry is not Lord. The UN is not Lord, nor is any creed or belief here on earth.

I think that's what is the greatest moment of Christianity, when it takes you out of your preconcieved notions, and allows you to worship anew...not an idol of power, but real love, goodness and mercy.

For all that to be true...Jesus must be fully of us, humankind. I also follow that in his death, he is made Christ, the chosen one of God, and becomes the second part of the trinity.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

MSD

It doesn't matter if Jesus was real or a myth, son of God or wandering schizo, or anything else. His message to us was clear: Love your fellow man, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. To me, that's the only part that matters. I wish more people would agree with that, it seems like we would have a better world if they did.

SecretMethod70

There are plenty of theologians who do not take the "bloodline" in the Bible as literal truth. To be honest, it doesn't matter. As for the apostles lifespans, they were likely quite young when they started following Jesus - between 16 and 20 - which would make them about 45-60 when the Gospels were written. Either way, that also doesn't matter since I never said they wrote the Gospels. Their followers did, applying their names to the works much like was done with kings in the middle ages.

As for cruelties "he" brought into the world - I won't even bother to address that since the cruelties were brought into the world be people NOT following him rather than following him. It's about on par with saying Islam is a hateful religion.

Just for reiteration.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

RedbeardUH

Personally, I view Christ as a literary figure more than anything. But that aside...

Jesus has 'empiricle' evidence about his existence. A well renowned Jewish historian by the name of Josephus (sp) wrote a few blurbs about Jesus proclaiming himself messiah. Josephus in no way supported/knew personally Jesus. He was just the historian of the time.

I think that it is most fruitful to percieve Jesus as both a literary figure and as a thelogical-philosopher. Even Nietzsche, who wrote a book called The Antichrist, who hated Christianity and proclaimed aetheisim eventually found an immeanse respect for Jesus. love him or hate him, he is one of the great genius of the world. And we all owe him a lot in our culture.

asaris

Not to undercut my own position, but using Josephus is deeply problematic, since it seems later Christians went in and "edited" him. So the blurbs you mention may or may not have been written by Josephus.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Zeraph

Where's the option: "IT WAS ME!"

ScottKuma

I believe that Jesus existed.
I believe that Jesus inspired at least 13 people to worship his beliefs during his lifetime.
I believe that he was an extremely devout Jew; albeit one who held some inflammatory beliefs.
I believe that he amassed enough power & influence during his lifetime to be seen as a danger by the oppressive ruling class of the day.
I believe he was betrayed by one of his apostles.
I believe he was crucified as a criminal.
I believe that his message was a good one.
I believe that many of his stories have been twisted & exaggerated by nominally pious people across the two thousand years since his birth.

I am doubtful that he actually died on the cross.
I am doubtful that he "rose from the dead" on the third day.
I am doubtful that he was the Son of God.

I am impressed that his apostles used the story of his life (and death) to start an entirely new powerbase...and in essence a revolution against the powers that were at the time.

I also believe that his message has been used to spur Evil as well as Good in this world since his death.

martinguerre

i don't have the text out in front of me ATM, but i seem to recall it goes something like this...

"Jesus of Nazareth, who happened to be the Lord and the Son of God, was executed by Pilate for causing a motherf$cking ruckus.

I'll have to find my copy of antiquities, but i seem to recall that he verifies a person named Jesus being killed by the romans for treason. the add-ons are pretty glaring...

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

MageB420666

When it comes to to pre-modern medicine times, life expectancy figures can be very misleading. In Roman times the life expectancy may have been around forty, but that doesn't mean that most people lived until forty and then croaked, it means that many people died very young, during their early childhood from diseases and accidents. So even in Roman times, if you made it to adulthood, you had about the same chances of living to be 80-100 as you do today. The life expectancy is the average not the mode.

Example: There is a group of 1000 people, 400 of them die between 1 and 5, 100 of them die between 6 and 15, the rest die at 70 to 90. Average life expectancy, around 42 years.(Calculated using the middle of the age ranges as the life time of the age group).

So the Apostles could all have lived to see 80 or more, but I just don't buy that they were able to write down word for word conversations and sayings that they had decades before. I can't even remember the exact words of a conversation I had ten minutes ago, much less 40 years.

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

asaris

Perhaps not word for word, but you might remember that the culture was more of an oral culture than ours is now, so they undoubtedly had better memories for this sort of thing than we do. And certainly you're going to remember what your mentor says to you alot better than some random conversation. Do I remember what me and my friends talked about at the bar last night? Not really. But do I remember what Alasdair MacIntyre said to me two years ago? Absolutely. The exact words? No, probably not. But the meaning of the conversation is still clear to me, and undoubtedly will remain clear to me.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

SecretMethod70

On that point, Mage, you are right. It is precisely why there is a growing emergence of historically critical theology. In fact, I have read some very convincing things regarding the purposes behind a lot of Biblical language, and most of it not being related to literal meaning, or related to false truths for that matter. Simply put, the truth and message of Jesus does not necessarily rely on the idea that he actually performed "miracles" when considered in the context of the originally intended audience of the Bible. It is a very interesting take on theology and one I have been very interested in learning more about since I was exposed to it - through the writings of current priests no less.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling