Ultimate God?
 

This is a prelude to a more interesting question or possibly interesting question, but are there religions that GOD creates everything in the Universe AND GOD knows everything that will happen?

Umm... yes, most forms of Christianity do, for example.

All three religions of Abraham believes in an 'ultimate' God.

that's this one covered get on with the "possibly more interesting question"

I get the feeling that the question that he was going to ask was the first part of my signature. Just a hunch.

no it's more along the lines of.........

if God knows when he creates a person that the person will do certain things such as, kill people, deny him, be homosexual, molest children, and basically everything bad one can think of, why does he still create them? Since God controls essentially how a person thinks and their environment, or at least knows what each will be and the effect of it, isn't it essentially his chioce to create homosexuals and such? I mean if he creates me, knowing that in the environment he puts me in and the level of mental capactiy I contain that I will not believe in him, then isn't that his fault?

i mean, I guess it's pretty much the same as why God creates an evil world, but people always argue that God gives you free will and that it's your choice that you will do those things. But I argue doesn't God already know the moment he creates me that I will make those bad choices and such?

I had an discussion with one of my muslim friends who is REALLY religious. Full out religious, and when I asked him these things he was stumped. In the end i made something up like, " O i guess we still have free choice that God doesn't control" and left because i didn't want to destroy his beliefs.

I have the same questions you do about the Abrahamic religions on this one. OK, even assuming that I have free will, and any wrongs I do are my fault and not God's, this doesn't make sense. What kind of God gives free will to beings capable of torture, sadism, etc.? Parents create and love their children, but they don't give their children cigarette lighters and car keys before they're clearly old enough to handle it WITH DIRECT SUPERVISION - the first few times, anyway. I hate to invoke the authority of the Nuremberg Tribunal, or even Spider-Man, on this one, but I do believe that with power comes responsibility, and, following that logically, any all-powerful being has ultimate responsibility, and is responsible for everything his creations do. If he doesn't accept that, then he's an unjust God. And if he's not all-powerful, he doesn't meet their definition of their God. Like you, I can't find a single one of them who can explain this to my satisfaction. They may be content with "Well, it's a mystery", but I'm not. I'm stubborn, and curious, and I guess if their God is real, then my nature is his fault, too, so they shouldn't blame me for giving them grief over it :)

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Gimme That Old Time Religion - PAGAN FOR LIFE!!

God is Love. He created us to share that love with. What is love if you cannot share it. Even people that are in love with only themselves want to let everyone else know how much they love themeselves and how important they are.

Frankly, the problem with said religions is that one cannot have free will and have a being that is omnipotent. If he knows everything that has, is and will happen, then that circumvents free will by default. Abrahamic religions are GENERALLY such a sham! Some people individually get it right, but the masses have no such luck.

I myself am not sure whether God is all-knowing, future-wise, or not. It's a big mystery. But I just get a feeling from the things that I see and the way that I feel that He's real, regardless of whether there is evil in the world or not.

There is always the "God works in mysterious ways" answer, which seems kind of like a cop-out to me.

There is the "You need evil to see good" answer, which is interesting, although in my opinion, not true.

Now I'm wondering if God ever said in the Bible that He was all-knowing and all-powerful, or whether that is merely an assumption made by man. Anybody more knowledgable in Bible quotes know the answer to this?

There are portions of scripture, in the Psalms in particular, where it is stated about God that He knows what I'm going to say before I say it. The same Psalm, I believe states that God knows "when I sit and when I rise", as well as "my going out" and coming in. The psalmist states something like "all my days are numbered by God." It may not come right out and say that God knows the future, but it certainly gives that impression. The other aspect is that much of the prophetic writings came true, historically speaking. Provided that the prophesy orriginated from God and He gave the prophet the words to say/write then we could conclude that God knew what was going to happen before it did.

As for the why did(does) God allow evil? Look at all the good in the world that has come from someone experiencing great adversity. If not for adversity, which some call evil, many of our great leaders in the world (and history) may never have turned out as they did. Just as in your body, you give yourself resistance so that you can develop strength, evil in the world provides the resistance necessary to develop certain character qualities. C.S. Lewis call life a "vale of soul making". You put new, imperfect, people in it (as infants) and under pressure and resistance from evil, at the end of life, out come people of character.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. John 3:16

Everyone who believes. I identify as queer and born-again...and i don't see conflict between those. I appriciate it when queer isn't in the same sentence as murdering, molestation, and "basically everything bad one can think of." yeah, actually, i *really* appriciate it when that conflation isn't made.

To your question. think of a parent who never let their kids grow up...never let them have any experience that hurt them. it's not just a bad idea...it's all but child abuse. to shelter a being with moral agency from the possibility of making bad choices is to destroy them.

Rational thought is not a part of faith. Rational though may strenghthen faith, but it does not compliment it. Faith relies on no proof at all. So, if God made himself known in a corporeal manner, then he would negate the need for faith. This is why God keeps to himself mostly.

You may find this thread interesting: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=48966& It seems to address the exact same question that you are addressing.

I'd give more of a response now, but in my sleep deprived state, I can't seem to shake off the idea that "Ultimate God" sounds like a video game character, and would most likely be able to kidk Raiden's ass.

Just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean that we don't have free choice. That only means that he knows what we're going to choose. The only way for him to take away free choice would be by not creating those he knew would choose against him. People who complain that an omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing) God should stop evil need to step up and take responsibility for their own actions.

Personally, I've always wondered if God sits up in heaven, knowing which people are going to reject him, but hoping he's wrong. I think he would much rather have his children love him than spurn him and kill each other, but that's our choice to make. If you disagree with me, that's fine because that is your choice to make.

I've said this before, but just for the record, neither God's omnipotence nor his omniscience contradict free will in any way. The only problem is between his providence, that is, the control he exerts on the world, and free will.

there is no god.

WAIT... everybody stop talking...

First off, i'm not arguing the stupid shit of why there is evil in the world or GOD has his purpose or something like that, so if you're thinking that, stop thinking.

this is the exact response i'm looking for.
the point that lots of people seem to be missing is that how is there free choice if God knows it's gonna happen and he creates us? And you can't argue that only God knows so what we do is still our choice.

here is what i'm trying to say:
God CREATES us. So he determines my mental capacity, my enviroment, everything that controls who I will be when I am older. So the moment God creates me, he knows what I will do with what he has given me. In that aspect, if he knows i'm not going to believe in him because a) i'm too smart or stupid to believe in him, or b) i'm just evil or something like that. Why didn't he make me smarter or stupider or less evil so i don't do bad things and believe in him.

more example: So say I decide that i'm going to use my life to kill people because I have no sympathy for people and dont love people. If God knows that I am going to do this today when he created me, why didn't he give me more sympathy or understanding when he created me. Or why didn't he situate it such that I will go through something that teaches me those things.

side note: sorry for the homosexuality remark, I only put it there because I know all those die hard religous people believe that so I am trying to catch their attention. I actually believe in gay marriage and support it. I mean it doesnt make sense to deprieve them of rights they deserve.

also, although I write these things in first person, it doesnt acutally describe me.

Bah!

a) I still say that omnipotent beings circumvent free will. Look at it from a quantum mechanics standpoint. *shrug*

b) I don't believe that any god creates each of us individually. Even if an ultimate being created one human (or two), the rest were all created as offspring from them, not directly via the hand of god. Again, anyone so religious as to believe that is not the case somewhat goes against free will. If god's hand is involved in everything that happens, it means that he does assert some level of control, and therefore strips us of free will. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?

Nope. Wrong. When god creates the universe in the begining, he sets in motion cause and effect. The deistic cause and effect theory has been put forward by your own St. Thomas Aquinas. Also, you can look at the 'principle of sufficient reason', essencially says the same thing as St. Thom with a few slight differences.

Both theories essentially state that the chain of events that have lead to the present are all a result of a previous cause ie Cause 5 --> C4 --> C3 --> C2 --> C1 --> Ending (or beginning however you want to look at it) with a necessary being or event. Xianity says that this necessary being is God. (I say bullshit, but that's just me.)

The problem with this is that if god is omnipotent, omniscient, and a whole hoard of omni-things that he claims to be, then in the instant that god creates the universe, by definition of his qualities, he has knowledge of the full spectrum of time and space. By full knowledge we're talking about everything, including the atoms that were split to destroy two cities, full of people, in Japan in the 1940's.

Interestingly enough this also obsolves you of many of the things that xians hold dear. Judgement upon death, how can god judge you if he caused you to everything that you did? Prayer, god ain't doin' nothin' more for you bud, he made his choices in the beginning, nothing you say is going to change that because he already knows what you are going to say and discounted it. And so forth, and so forth. Use this method to discount pretty much anything in the Bible. Either there is no such thing as free will... or God is not omnieverything, in which case I see no need to worship him anyway.

:thumbsup:

(There's also the famous qoute about omnipotence, "If God is all powerfull, can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?" Toss that around for awhile. :hmm: )

very well put Mr. Zen. I've always meant to discuss this topic, but since I didn' want to destroy my friends beliefs i've always been hesitant to talk it out with them after my one experience with a muslim friend. It's good to have this board to discuss it.

The same Aquinas also proved that the notion that God's omniscience contradicts human free will is based on an error in the placement of a modal modifier. So, for example, take the statement "God knows that Tom is sitting in a chair". According to those who want the contradiction, this entails "Tom is necessarily sitting in a chair"; that is, 'necessarily' is modifying 'sitting'. But this is wrong. What the statement 'God knows' entails is simply "Necessarily, Tom is sitting in a chair". And this does not contradict free will.

Let me put it another way. Sometimes we have knowledge[1] of the future; most often because we are the causes of what's going to happen in the future. I know I'm going to be driving to South Bend tomorrow afternoon, because I'm going to make it happen. But I also know that Donald Uitvlugt is going to be riding with me. No one would say that my knowledge in this case somehow compels Donald to get in the car. Then why is it supposed to be different with God's foreknowledge?

Xephyrs. SHOW me how God's omnipotence contradicts free will. Let me use a similar example to the one above. I could compel Matt to have a cigarette with me, either by using a gun, slipping something into his coffee that makes him really, really want to smoke, kidnap his wife and threaten that unless he smokes... But the mere fact that I could compel Matt to smoke with me doesn't mean that, when I do go to his office and ask him to smoke with me, that I'm compelling him. So why is it different in God's case?

Mandal suggests that, since God creates us, we aren't free. But I would strongly disagree with his claim, both in a broad way and a narrow way. It's at least anti-intuitive that the combination of environment and genes determine our selves. We like to think, at least, that our choices in part create who we are. And furthermore, if that combination determines who we are, there's as little room for freedom under a strictly materialist framework as under the most devoutly Christian. Now, more narrowly, I tend to follow the existentialist/Nietzschean notion of self-creation (I say tend because I also tend to like the medieval notion of individual essences, and there's a little tension there.) So, while we have certainly abilities and propensities, we can create ourselves into the person we want to be. I reject the idea, popular among many American protestant, that God has one specific plan for our lives; rather, I believe that he works through our own choices to bring about good in this world.

Finally, Mr Zen, I think we had a thread on "God create rock?" a while back that you might be interested in.
[1]That is, knowledge in the philosophical sense; justified true belief.

But what you have to consider is: What is going to make MAtt decide if he is going to smoke? his experiences, his frame of mind, how he thinks, his environment, all things controlled and put in place by God. God's foreknowledge is very different becuase he creates us. So in essence he creates how my mind works and how strong/weak my mind is. By him creating us and him knowing what will happen when he creates us, he knows that if he creates me "x" way, I will do "y". So if he doesn't want me to do "y" he should actually create me like "z"

I think it's pretty clear how God's foreknowledge is different. Your foreknowledge doesnt change anything because you have no real control on how he thinks and how he will react, but God does. When God created Matt he determined everything about Matt.

I feel like i'm pretty much repeating myself. Try to read everything carefully and think about it carefully. I think you should see why there is a BIG difference between your foreknowledge and God's.

This is why I only acknowledge a portion of his reasoning. In fact many of the justifications that he puts forward are with, if I may say so, very weak support and justification.

So we get into a problem with the definition of omniscience. Its not simply that god has knowledge of the future, moreover that he has absolute knowledge of everything. From the beginning of the universe (and presumably what occurred before that) to the eventual end of the same universe (now this brings into question, what happens when the universe ends? Does god simply create a new one or does he decide to put up his preverbal sword and retire to a nice place in the country side? But thats a discussion for another thread). He knows the course of every quantum proportion of every entity in existence.

Now, going from that, we also have the idea of creation. I don't think people actually think that god creates every living being, rather that god created everything (this is where Aquinas comes in) and set into motion the system of cause and effect that I mentioned earlier. Meaning that he created what was the beginning - whether that be the Adam and Steve (sorry Eve) story, or the intelligent design theory (I assume that this was proposed very early on but since I'm reading Rauhut right now, I'll reference him).

I prefer the intelligent design theory so I'm going to go with that (I find the incestual connotations that go with the Genesis story a bit nauseating so I'll stay away from it). So here's the scenario, god creates the universe. He spreads atoms this way and that, and creates planets, stars, black holes and the like. While doing this he is in essence shaping the course of history. Because, using our definition of omniscience, and that of omnipotence, we know that god has full knowledge of every consequence of every action that he takes and that of every consequence of every action of the initial set of consequences and actions. Using his so called omniscience, he therefore plots the actions and consequences of every quantum of every entity in the scope of universal existence.

What that means is that, while we may think and imagine that we have what we call free choice of action and thought, everything we do, including believing or not believing by the way, is all part of god's master plan. And in fact has, as I said earlier, by simple cause and effect, been plotted since the beginning of time. Everything that happens in life, from the wonderful gifts of charity and benevolence that we see from some people, to the horrible and retched abuses of living beings that we've also been the unwanting witnesses to, can be associated with god.

:hmm: :rolleyes:

:|

While I'm writing this I should be writing a paper on a selection from Plato's Theaetetus on the definition of knowledge, in which Sacrates effectively disproves that particular definition of knowledge.

:)

Funny thing is, the contradictory nature of omnipotence doesn't really interest me anywhere near as much as the contradictory nature of the 'omni' prefex itself...

k, now I know why my girlfriend calls me a dork and tells me to shut when I talk about philosophy. :hmm: Ah, well, what can you do?

:lol:

Nevermind, I'm stupid and didn't realise that the passage was actually the origin of your definition and I just don't know how to read.

:hmm:

Mr. Zen and Mandal, I couldn't agree more.

Mandal, what you are saying is that God's omnipotence contradicts human free will, because the universe is deterministic, and God set up the starting parameters, right? Correct me if you mean something else.

Well, what I'm trying to say is two-fold. First, if the universe is deterministic through and through, then non-Theists have as much of a problem with free will as Theists; whether or not the starting parameters are just brute facts or were created by God, free will is going to be difficult to defend. Second, I simply reject your picture of the universe as being through and through determined. I believe we have free will (and for non-religious reasons at that), and so we can have a sort of sui generis causality that's not determined by the previous state of the universe. That is, for agent A's free choice between p and ~p at time t, the state of affairs S of the universe at time t-1 does not determine A's choice. There are possible worlds where A chooses p and possible worlds where A chooses ~p, where S obtains at t-1 in all these worlds.

To sum up, your problem as I understand is either a problem regardless of whether or not your're a Christian or not a problem at all.

*nods

frankly, i live in a world in which i beleve in free will, simply because it is far more interesting than the alternative.

If wishes had wings... But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

;)

Perhaps God doesn't want a perfect world? I don't.

On the topic of his omniscience, perhaps he just seems all knowing from our point-of-view because we're all dumbasses (cosmotheticly speaking[or otherwise :D ] ). Just as Bill Gates might seem to have an unlimited supply of money to an Etheopian(crappy example, I know...)

wait.. if the universe is not through determined, that means God doesn't know "everything" and rids him of his "omni"ness

I don't think you understand the complete scope "all knowing" entails. :hmm:

My point exactly... Well not exactly, but close enough.
:thumbsup:

What if free will doesn't exist? There was an experiment done in which a person presses a button to stop a spinning 'clock'. They then note the time down in which they had the urge to stop the clock. However measuring brain activity indicates that the brain becomes active (in the areas relevant) before the person gets the urge to stop the clock. I don't think this is entirely conclusive, but it does raise the question, what if free will doensn't exist? Maybe it is just a trick played on us by our own mind?

Nope, God still knows everything. How you ask? Three answers. One: He just does. He's God, he gets to know everything. Two: He's outside of time, so everything has already happened for him. Three: He causes everything to happen. I'd explain how that's compatible with free will, but I've already done that in another thread, and I need to head to class pretty quick..

:p Oh, I see, halalulya I see the light!

:lol:

1. You do have to admit that even trying to enter the possibility of an omnipotent being into a logical equation is somewhat of a error in and of itself. With out any comment on the possibilities of existence of an omnipotent being or free will, to consider the attributes of such concepts places logic at the very boundary of its competence.

2. If you're going to be that sarcastic, at least make an attempt to correctly spell hallelujah.

Umm... Sorry, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was responding in a joking manner to something that was said in a somewhat joking manner. "He's God, he gets to know everything."

I actually laughed because I thought it was funny...

Anyway, moving on from religion... Wow... :rolleyes:

nope.. I would have to say that God doesnt exist, or at least not in anyway in which we make him to be.

That's very noble of you, a shame about your extremely biggoted ideas about homosexuality.

I would point out to all those who condemn homosexuality, justifying this condemnation with Leviticus, which calls it an abomination, that Leviticus also says that eating shellfish is an abomination. So a strict interpretation of the Old Testament puts all of us straight people who've been to Red Lobster on the condemned list as well. There's much more in the O.T. along these lines, including a clear indication that it's ok for me to sell my daughter into slavery, but I won't go into it all here.

It's been gone into already. See the homosexuality thread (should be near the top). And I don't think mandal was being serious when he put homosexual into that list.

yes it was gone into.

I'd also like to add that the reason I think about this topic and argue for it is not so that I can tell religous people they are all wrong and what they think is just a sham. Rather it's so that I can defend myself and others who are pushed around by religous folks that act as though that are superior to everyone else.

This is what I was wondering from the beginning. I asked the first question to make sure that most religions believe in a God that know everything since this seemed like the more debatable topic, however, I did not think too much about the whole creation idea. I guess I'll just put the question out then for those who know... do the major religions believe in a God who knows everything AND creates everything? It was always my understanding that people say life is a gift from God and God made me this way and what not so I always assumed, but verification would be good.

Most Christians (the Gnostics being a notable exception), Jews, and Muslims believe in one and only one God who created all, is omnipotent, omniscient, etc. Muslims reject the idea of the holy Trinity, because, in their view, it makes a case for three Gods, when they believe there is only one. Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity believe it is three aspects of one God, similar in principle to the Triple Goddess - maiden, mother, and crone - as viewed by many Pagans. Buddhism contains no dogma, nor any required belief in a Supreme Being - Buddhism is a code of life, a path to enlightenment, nothing more or less. The same with Taoism, though the Taoist church has strayed very far from Lao Tzu's teachings, and has become as corrupt as some forms of Christianity. Paganism is by nature polytheistic and nature-based, though many Pagans belief in one God or Goddess that is more powerful than the rest in their pantheon - Odin, for one, in the Asatru churches of Scandinavia. Overall, it's a fair estimate that a third of the world's population rejects the idea of a single, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal God.
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Gimme That Old Time Religion - PAGAN FOR LIFE!

"Buddhism contains no dogma"

Really? I'll admit i'm not a scholar of non-western traditions, but in my cursory study of buddism there do seem to be teachings and schools of thought that are not simply a "code of life."

There are different branches of Buddhism, just as in most religions, some of which deify the Buddha for reaching nirvana, but the general idea of Buddhism is to find the middle ground in life and to allow yourself to stop wanting for things to remain static, understanding of the Four Noble Truths is paramount. Certain techniques are advocated, but like I said, the general rule of Buddhism is to follow the middle ground. ie. don't eat meat unless someone offers it to you.

To say that "Buddhism contains no dogma," however, is only half correct. There has been a consensus set down for the whole of Buddhism by athoritive groups in the past, but at the same time, the Buddha said only to use his experiences as a guide and that one must find the path to enlightenment on their own terms, not his.

They are definately not as stringent as Jains are, some of whom have starved themselves to death so as not to harm any more living beings. :crazy:

There is a Goddess! At least, she works for me. :)

There are many ways to celebrate our connection to the world... it doesn't require believing in an omnipotent, ultimate "God", IMO.

IMO people are fscking idiots, we all are. Why do people personify god? Why do they assume it will have the same perceptions on good and evil as them? How can they assume good and evil even exist? Think of how childish that attitude is, its funny how the gods we create, that if they were a person, I wouldn't want to be friends with them.

Ignore me Im just rambling.

done, done... and...... done.

j/k well it doesn't really matter to me what you said about God because I don't personally believe in one, but i'm sure there are those who will come right back and tell you off.

I was born and raised an Anglican Christian, but most of the time I find myself asking these same questions constantly. I guess I'm more of an agnostic at this point than anything. I like the idea of God, the afterlife, salvation, etc. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, one of the things that I've been thinking about lately is this: The stories contained in the bible are thousands of years old, and it was a lot easier for something unexplained to be credited as a miracle, vs. today's standards, where there is much more information available. That said, I have another thought: I was born and raised as a Christian and taught to believe what christians believe. What if I was born and raised muslim? Jewish? hindu? I would have their beliefs set in stone the way I had christianity set in stone, wouldn't I? I don't really know what's out there, but I guess what I'm saying is, if there is a one true God, then its existence is beyond our perception or reasoning. The whole "omnipotent, omniscient" thing really gets confusing. From my standpoint, it kind of creates a paradox, doesn't it? :confused:

Try reading Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth", especially the letters from Satan to his archangel pals. Most of your arguments are covered there.

interesting... i'll check it out

It's different because God cannot be wrong. You can. Something could happen to your car between now and tomorrow or something could happen to a family member and you would have to change your plans. You might even die tonight, making it unlikely that you'd be in South Bend tomorrow. Donald could change his mind about going with you. The point is that any number of things could happen that would make you wrong. If God knows something is going to happen then it will happen. So how could I have free will if God already knows what I am going to choose? God cannot be wrong so I cannot choose anything other than what he knows I will choose. How is it a choice then? I wouldn't have another option.

That's simply false, Livia, as I've already argued. From the proposition "God knows that I will drive to Grand Rapids tomorrow", you can only infer (A)"Necessarily, I will drive to Grand Rapids tomorrow", not (A')"I will necessarily drive to Grand Rapids tomorrow". But for free will, the following proposition needs to be true: (B) "I will freely drive to Grand Rapids tomorrow". But this is the denial of A', not of A, since the denial of A is just "Possibly I will drive to Grand Rapids tomorrow." And the contingency of an action is not identical to its freedom; as pointed out in another thread somewhere, random acts are contingent, yet not free. The difference is that the necessity in question is the necessity of the statement, not the necessity of the action.

This is my issue with mainstream christianity.
How does a panel of bishops in ancient times when the world was still flat get to determine what God is like? If they received direct communication from God on this matter, why aren't THEIR words in the bible like all the other people that spoke to Him.

Personally, I think a lot of the problem lies in how we phrase the question.
Here are some others to cast new light in it:
-If there is a god and he did make us, why make us the way we are? Why are we so different from animals that work mainly on instinct and why is that free will so important?

-If there is a God, and there is a reason for the above, what is the plan? To let us continue or is there an end to the 'project earth'?

-If this life is all there is according to some people, should people who believe in a god and the god-given right of free will allow those people to live their lives like there is no tomorrow?

-If there is a god, does that mean the presence of an equal but opposite deity? (Satan, lucifer whatever) What is that personage's ultimate role? If all things need an opposite, is Satan really bad or is he just fulfilling a role?

Welcome to the hell of theology.

They expected the council to be moved by the Holy Spirit to do God's will - they didn't expect God to write on the wall for them. The idea was to get enough holy men in a room together discussing doctrine and everything would come out as God wished because everyone present had the Holy Spirit. Also, there wasn't a standard version of the Bible until after Charlemagne so their words might have been in one of the versions that was not accepted.

A' is the only thing that you can argue from the proposition "God knows I will drive to Grand Rapids tomorrow." How can God know infallibly what I am going to choose (because from his point of view, I already have chosen) and still give me the choice? The only option I have is the one he knows I will take. Even when I was a Christian I didn't believe that God was omniscient because it is incompatible with free will. I'd argue that God knows every option I have and which one I am most likely to choose but he does not know for certain what I will choose.

Well, there are a number of ways to explain how God knows the future; the most common is simply that God is outside of time. He doesn't really know ahead of time what we'll choose, he knows then. It's just that for him, then is now.

I probably have an argument for my claim that the proposition "God knows..." entails A, but I'll have to look them up. It's been a while since I've done that sort of philosophy. Just to check, do you have any arguments for your claim?

There is a somewhat common position among contemporary Philosophers of Religion that seems similar to your viewpoint when you were a Christian called "Open Theism". It holds that God does not know all things in advance, but knows us so well, and the universe so well, that he has a very good idea about what will happen. And there's something to be said for the position. But the problem is that even the very near future, tomorrow say, is dependant on so many free choices that even if God is 99.99% sure about any given free decision, the odds of God's guess about tomorrow would be fantastically small.

For what it's worth, there is an issue I believe to be valid floating in the background. The question shouldn't be "How is God's foreknowledge compatible with human freedom?", but rather "How is God's providence compatible with human freedom?" If God truly ordains all things, not only knows them but causes them to be, how can we possibly be free. This has come up before, so I think I'll start a new thread with my own views up for discussion.

I have heard this before and it makes sense in as much as I can imagine a being outside of time. I believe C. S. Lewis said something of the sort. I'm assuming that's a difficult thing for most people to wrap their minds around.

I'm afraid I don't. Most of my theology comes from discussions with people around the dinner table or studying the history of the Church and thinking "oh that makes sense." I'm pretty sure that arguments for my claim exist because the people I was talking to read an awful lot of philosophical works, but I haven't run across them yet.

That would be fascinating. You have probably answered this somewhere else, but what is your theological and religious background? And are you a philosophy major? If you are, I doubt I have a chance in an argument with you.

On a personal opinion, if God is the ultimate being all laws of physics are either generated and controlled by him/her or god is also subject to them. Kind of like a judge sets the laws and can make new ones but is not above it.

Also, regarding time and knowing all things I think it revolves around your belief in whether god has a plan or not. If the world is meant to end at day x and all people are to be judges as most christians believe, then you can be pretty sure that God knows the outcome as he has planned it from the start. Does it matter if Johnny is good or bad if God knows that ultimately everyone ends up being judged whilst the world is a boling mass?

Thus we come to another point. If he DOES know exactly who will do what, then bother make us? Back to the tricky philosophy of predestination.

The best solution I have been given for this is to consider a God to be the ultimate quantum computer.
If you consider that for an equation x+ 2 = z where X can have many values, a quantum computer can give you the answer to all the possible variants at once. We could say that with regard to the outcome of the equation, the computer is all knowing. It depends on the value of X.
With that in mind an ultimate God doesn't need to predestine humans to a particular role or fate, he/she/it just knows what any answer will be for the value of Johnny being Good or Evil.

With regard to Time, what does an eternal being consider of it?
I've heard a good comparison of this too.
Were we to consider Time to be music, then you and I would be listening to the orchestra and following along the score sheet, recognising it note for note. But a god would be like a master musician. They would be able to look at the first few notes and just know the most probable progression of the melody, rythm and mood of the piece.