The Golden Calf

[Ustwo]

(decided this didn't quite fit the other thread)

I think the problem with 'who would Jesus vote for' is that some people want to see the Government AS Jesus, as god, as the savior of all.

This is not only against what Jesus taught, but also against common sense. The government has become a golden idol for some, who provides the milk and honey, or at least cheese food product, and has removed all responsibility from the individual.

I think this is a disease born of laziness, and fostered by those who wish to exploit the lazy for their own ends by buying them off with other peoples money in order to get elected.

If you support me, I will take money from HIM and give it to YOU. Despotism in its most basic form. Forced labor under penalty of incarceration. I would say its no different then any pharaoh, only that would be a lie. The Egyptians owed less to the pharaoh in labor then we currently do to pay our taxes. Only the extreme wealth of our civilization, due to our constantly improving technology and unlimited energy, has allowed us to maintain this, but sooner or later it will no longer be able to sustain itself and chaos will return.

Millions who have become accustomed gifts from the government will starve, and those who still know how to work will violently protect what is theirs.

It will of course all work out in the end, but the longer we let it go the worse will be the fall and the greater the suffering.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

(decided this didn't quite fit the other thread)

I think the problem with 'who would Jesus vote for' is that some people want to see the Government AS Jesus, as god, as the savior of all.

This is not only against what Jesus taught, but also against common sense. The government has become a golden idol for some, who provides the milk and honey, or at least cheese food product, and has removed all responsibility from the individual.

Ahahaha. That cheese reffrence is pretty funny. I see the connection as clear as day.

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I think this is a disease born of laziness, and fostered by those who wish to exploit the lazy for their own ends by buying them off with other peoples money in order to get elected.

110% behind you on this. People seem to not understand that one of our greatest responsibilities, as members of a (supposed) democracy is to make the right informed decisions to lead our country. We are responsible for our representatives, INCLUDING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

If you voted for Bush, and you are going around bad mouthing him to people who voted for Gore, I hope you leave America. You are not what this country is supposed to be.

Originally Posted by Ustwo

If you support me, I will take money from HIM and give it to YOU. Despotism in its most basic form. Forced labor under penalty of incarceration. I would say its no different then any pharaoh, only that would be a lie. The Egyptians owed less to the pharaoh in labor then we currently do to pay our taxes. Only the extreme wealth of our civilization, due to our constantly improving technology and unlimited energy, has allowed us to maintain this, but sooner or later it will no longer be able to sustain itself and chaos will return.

And....you lost me. As much good as forced labor would be from a scientific standpoint, this plan lacks morality. You, just as no other person, has the right to rule all. Any one person who has (a God complex) the want to rule all people is considered to be insane. History has already showed us that a totalitarian government is less effective than deomcracy, even if the democracy is severly corrupted. We also lack the law enforcement to deal with the MASS protests that will result in such a fundamental shift in lifestyle. I wouldn't mind doing a few years of labor to earn the right to vote, but I'm very much alone on even that.

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Millions who have become accustomed gifts from the government will starve, and those who still know how to work will violently protect what is theirs.

It will of course all work out in the end, but the longer we let it go the worse will be the fall and the greater the suffering.

Here we see a 'lack of morality' rear it's ugly head. Do you think those who are dependant of the goverment deserve to die? I don't think either of us is qualified to make such a decision. We can be mad at people for being dependant on the system, but the death of millions is hardly fair punishment.

Okay, you are thinking. THAT'S GOOD. I appreciate that you are trying to do something to solve some clear and present dangers that our world faces. More people need to take an active role in changing the world. Personally, along your line of thinking, I think it would be interesting to pinpoint certian genes that bring out murder or addictive tendancies, and not allow them to be passed on to the next generation; that is, not allow people with these genes reproduce. After a few generations, we may be able to prevent people who have severe mental disorders and such from ever existing. That is if we can't simply control the reproductive process. Sound good? Well, again we lose sight of morality.

The bottom line is this: science, logic, and morality have to play a vital role in the actions we take to try and fix our worlds problems. Without one, the others fall.

[tecoyah]

pointless to even try

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by willravel

Ahahaha. That cheese reffrence is pretty funny. I see the connection as clear as day.


And....you lost me. As much good as forced labor would be from a scientific standpoint, this plan lacks morality. You, just as no other person, has the right to rule all. Any one person who has (a God complex) the want to rule all people is considered to be insane. History has already showed us that a totalitarian government is less effective than deomcracy, even if the democracy is severly corrupted. We also lack the law enforcement to deal with the MASS protests that will result in such a fundamental shift in lifestyle. I wouldn't mind doing a few years of labor to earn the right to vote, but I'm very much alone on even that.

Well you did lose me allright. WE are already in forced labor. You know what tax freedom day is? Its the day the average American has to work to in order to pay their taxes off. Currently its April 11th. That means that from Jan 1 to April 11, YOU work for the government. They take that money from you. If you don't pay you go to jail. Taxes or forced labor, same thing, your choise is to pay, to go to jail, or join the unproductive.

Here we see a 'lack of morality' rear it's ugly head. Do you think those who are dependant of the goverment deserve to die? I don't think either of us is qualified to make such a decision. We can be mad at people for being dependant on the system, but the death of millions is hardly fair punishment.

Okay, you are thinking. THAT'S GOOD. I appreciate that you are trying to do something to solve some clear and present dangers that our world faces. More people need to take an active role in changing the world. Personally, along your line of thinking, I think it would be interesting to pinpoint certian genes that bring out murder or addictive tendancies, and not allow them to be passed on to the next generation; that is, not allow people with these genes reproduce. After a few generations, we may be able to prevent people who have severe mental disorders and such from ever existing. That is if we can't simply control the reproductive process. Sound good? Well, again we lose sight of morality.

The bottom line is this: science, logic, and morality have to play a vital role in the actions we take to try and fix our worlds problems. Without one, the others fall.

Ok now you really lost it. I never said millions SHOULD die, what I said is when the system falls down millions WILL. This isn't punishment, its just economics. Not enough food, to many mouths. I'm not sure what post you were reading but I don't think it was mine at the end there

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by tecoyah

so much anger....

I would give a rebuttal, but I really have no Idea what you are trying to express....other than a deep dislike for those less fortunate than yourself.
Perhaps if this is moved to the politics board.....you will get the kind of reply you seek.

As for the thread title.....if you are implying some level of government worship, and thus an offense to God, I suppose an argument could be made in favor of this belief.

What in Jebus's name are you talking about? A deep dislike of those less fortunate? Could you explain what I said that lead you to that conclusion?

[tecoyah]

Please move to politics......

[tecoyah]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

What in Jebus's name are you talking about? A deep dislike of those less fortunate? Could you explain what I said that lead you to that conclusion?

Ummm...perhaps you should re-read your initial post, and think about it as if you were actually someone with compassion, rather than hatred as your guiding force. Virtually the entire thing was a rant of distaste for anyone on government assistance. Other than the Jesus bit you tossed in to make this political diatribe look philosphical, it was a typical politics post, and true to your form, nasty, onesided, and pointless.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Well you did lose me allright. WE are already in forced labor. You know what tax freedom day is? Its the day the average American has to work to in order to pay their taxes off. Currently its April 11th. That means that from Jan 1 to April 11, YOU work for the government. They take that money from you. If you don't pay you go to jail. Taxes or forced labor, same thing, your choise is to pay, to go to jail, or join the unproductive.

That is one way off looking at it. What I meant (I should have been more specific), is forced labor in a more direct way. A group moves to a compound and works on a farm or in construction. Forcing people to work directly for the government. After a given time, we are allowed to go back to our normal, tax paying lives with one difference: we can vote.

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Ok now you really lost it. I never said millions SHOULD die, what I said is when the system falls down millions WILL. This isn't punishment, its just economics. Not enough food, to many mouths. I'm not sure what post you were reading but I don't think it was mine at the end there

You said (joking?) that you wanted the despot system imposed now. What I was trying to say it that your solution, while valid, is probably not the best one. It is not necessarily true that the colapse, if there is a colapse, will kill millions. If we can come up with a solution that can save millions, that would be ideal. That was my point.

[martinguerre]

*sigh

Jesus didn't do fair. The prodigal son deserved nothing. He spent his inheritance. Spent other people's money...wasted it all away. His right was to be indebted the rest of his life.

No...Jesus didn't do fair. It's odd that you think he did, Ustwo.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by martinguerre

*sigh

Jesus didn't do fair. The prodigal son deserved nothing. He spent his inheritance. Spent other people's money...wasted it all away. His right was to be indebted the rest of his life.

No...Jesus didn't do fair. It's odd that you think he did, Ustwo.

That is a poor anology. The prodigal son did deserve nothing, but his father still loved him and give him a second chance.

What the government model is, the prodigal son returns and THEY force me to take him back in, even though he isn't my son.

One is about a fathers love, the other is about imposed will.

Apples and oranges.

[martinguerre]

it's far more apt than you think.

what's the reaction of the other son? Anger. His inheritance is being spent to welcome the prodigal back in. His money being taken away from him, given to another.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by martinguerre

it's far more apt than you think.

what's the reaction of the other son? Anger. His inheritance is being spent to welcome the prodigal back in. His money being taken away from him, given to another.

His FATHERS money, not his. Big difference.

You also show a bit of yourself, you just refered to the government as the father, and the taxpayer as the hard working son.

[martinguerre]

I'll absolutly deny assigning any roles to anyone. One of the true geniuses of the parabolic teachings is that they systematically deny you the opportunity to idenitify with any of the main characters. Robert Funk talks about this in "Honest to Jesus." Worth a read, even if you don't agree with other parts of his interpretation.

In the story...the money being spent is in the fathers control. you're right. but, by any sense of fairness is the rightous son's. he has worked hard to build the family business, and would expect to share in the rewards as his birthright. this is a society that takes inheritance very seriously...

my point is not: The government is the wise loving father. it should take money from hard workers and give it to lazy people.

my point is: Jesus doesn't do "fair." God's justice transcends simple accounting. Don't try to paint a picture of Jesus the capitolist...it really won't turn out very well.

So, what's the alternative Ustwo? Let the able continue to work, while the less fortunate starve...and...as history has proven on multiple occasions, rise up against those with power and tear down inequalities with violence.

Yes, you are paying for fat lazy people to sit on their arses with your tax, but you are also paying to avoid bloody revolution. (Oh, and schools, roads, trash collection and other publicly funded services) Sorry, but your myopic viewpoint doesn't hold water.

Plus, this belongs in Politics.

[irateplatypus]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Millions who have become accustomed gifts from the government will starve, and those who still know how to work will violently protect what is theirs.

not if those fine folks at the soylent green corporation have anything to say about it! god bless'em.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

not if those fine folks at the soylent green corporation have anything to say about it! god bless'em.

Mmmmmmm people.....

[Bill O'Rights]

So....what the hell are we talking about here? Idolatry, or Public Assistance?

[tecoyah]

I gave up trying to figure that out....Sounds like a politics thread though

[CSflim]

Yes. It's true. The only reason anyone is less well off than you is because they are complete lazy fatasses.

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Millions who have become accustomed gifts from the government will starve, and those who still know how to work will violently protect what is theirs.

More like the people with the most artillery will work violently to protect what is theirs. If what you're advocating is the end of goverment "gifts" than you better stock up on guns and bottled water, because the police and the public works are both "gifts".

The lower class has the most potential political power out of any class. Public assistance helps keep them from utilizing that power. Just see what happens if that which you advocate comes to fruition. You pewl when the government makes you help out your fellow man. You'll shit your pants when your fellow man is forced to rob your ass to get what he thinks he needs to survive.

Shortsighted.