Finding meaning in your life without god
 

Interesting problem. People that have a belief in God or even a continued existence after death can find purpose to their lives, owing to the fact that their accomplishments might be useful to them after they die. But a person that believes that death brings obliteration has a difficult time finding meaning to their life.

To the Atheists, Agnostics, and Existentialists out there:

How do you guys overcome the absurdity that is life? Where do you find your meaning?

To the God-fearing members of the board:

Have you ever had doubts about continuing after death? Any fear that when you die, you might just end everything right there?

Re: Finding meaning in your life without god
 

Life is absurd, and it's that way wether you believe in god or not (I assume as I can only look in from the atheist side).
Religious people often comment that things are the way they are because God (insert deity of choice as applicable) meant them to be that way.
I actually favor the idea that things are not meant to be this way, they just "happened" to become like this. If life is determined by God, who am I to choose my ways? To please Him? Why?

I find meaning in building a nice comfortable life for myself and my friends. Study, find a job that suits me, make a reasonable living and be able to enjoy the little things in life. I'm no selfless individual that volunteers at the local homeless shelter every week, but I'm no scrooge either. I try to stay in between, enjoying my life while trying to help others enjoy theirs.

Finding meaning in life is a crutch for the weak minded. ;)

Why does life have to have a purpose?

For me life is like a long train voyage. There are many stops but no final destinations.

The meaning, if you will, is in the process rather than some reward at the end.

You didn't answer the question. :P

Charlatan, I didn't mean to say that life needs to have a purpose to find meaning. I just wanted to say that purpose in life will give meaning to it, and Religion provides that purpose, that goal to achieve.

I was trying to ask those without God if they found life meaningful without that purpose, or if they found another purpose for life.

Silvy, you didn't really answer the question. The things you do have meaning in themselves, but how do they give your own life meaning? Why do you do them, if in a few years you face obliteration and none of it matters anyway? How do you overcome the objective perspective that what you do in your life is so inconsequential?

Yes, I've had doubts, but even if I am wrong and there is no God, I've lived a good life and I won't ever know I was wrong.

What's not to love? :D

I really do think that I'm personally no better or worse of after I die regardless of how I lived. (as in: I'm dead either way, end of story, kaput)

But, my life has had meaning when I can look back and say: I've enjoyed myself.
That's it.
Enjoyment in and of itself is what gives life meaning. Wether the enjoyment is in life or after doesn't matter.

And I find enjoyment when I'm able (have been able) to make a decent living etc. as posted above. I do not need a prize at the end to congratulate me.
Oh and btw, "in a few years you face obliteration" I hope that's at least 50 years away :)

I believe that it shouldn't matter whether or not their is a god--that you should do the 'right' thing either way. To me, it seems very selfish to do good acts to others if your motivation is to get yourself to heaven. Why not do those same things because people need your help?

What purpose does believing in God give? I missed something. I mean, there is "avoid hell, and win the heaven jackpot" common in many religions, but that is often independant of believing in God.

Distinguish one's life from the things that are done in one's life? Without clarity, this sounds alot like "why yes, A is true, but how is A true?"

First, I won't be obliterated. Or so I think. I may die, but that isn't being obliterated. And I might not die, being born at a fortunate time in history.

Second, how does death imply none of it matters? Death doesn't undo all that has occurred, that which is still is, that which was still was.

Inconsequential to what? Compared to what? My life and actions have consequences, a huge number of them, so it isn't absolutely inconsequential.

If your existance isn't the penultimate important part of your value system, no matter what your value system is, this isn't a problem. Now, even in most religions they reward you with "heaven" or the like, so I guess you could believe that this was the only option.

Who needs meaning?

I'm here to enjoy my very finite life as much as I can.

Being an atheist, for lack of a better term, I believe that when I die that is the end of the ride (to stretch my analogy above just a little further).

Knowing this and sharing the same existensial fear of death that we all share (even those that believe there is life after death fear death in this way... it is one of the main reasons to cling to life after death, it asuages the uncertainty that death represents) I take my purpose in life to enjoy it moment to moment.

Why wallow in the inevitable? We are all going to die. We could die at any time. Enjoy every moment. Live a good life. Have few to no regrets.

I see no need to look to God for this purpose... but that's just me. Silly old atheist.

As I am Pagan, I find meaning in the trials of this life and the growth it entails. I think the more I can learn in this incarnation, the less I will need before leaving this form of existance completely. Also I find great pleasure in helping others and learning from the interactions.

yes, this is the challenge of the unbelief or to agnostic, unorganized belief :P . well, by analyzing arguments of religious text, you can often find problems in the logic as in any arguments as people live on different fundemental assumption. and if these assumption happen to be incompatible, i believe it is actually quite easy to be a non-believer. plus even by compromising with these assupmtions, one still might find the lack of the "leap of faith" required to believe in a omnipotent God. For example Deist of the enlightenment period who are hardcore empericist believe in God by the argument of design and as many of you know, the famous Pascal's "Wager". yet they refuse to believe in a "supernatural" God as if God created rules of the universe, by preforming a mericle is not God breaking his own rule? Which does not justify the sense of omnipotenet/perfection associated with God. During other times, ultiitarians such as Mills believe God is only important if the God is a God who loves his people and wants the greatest happiness for all. These are just two examples, there are many reasons to believe or to not believe in God. ~ my two cents

Well, I get along with God pretty good, but I didn't always. So far He hasn't fucked up, so I'll stick with him. But before me and Him had our little convo, I found that there was plenty of meaning in life. I do believe that everyone needs an idea bigger then them to believe in, but it doesn't have to be God or such. For me, it was friendship. I know that when I am long dead and gone, the friends I left behind will be able to look back at the times we had and smile, and hopefully a couple of them can learn from some of my bigger fuck ups without haveing to go through them themselves. That is enough for me. After life or no.

I stick around for evolutions sake, there is always more to know and perhaps there's something worthwhile out there that we haven't found. Where's the new wine? Rotting on the vine.

For now, music, poetry, sex, emotion and alcohol.

alright good point. But I find the almost all religions provide a person with a meaning for life, which I almost see as an easy way out of having to ponder it yourself.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Are you refuting my argument? Or just restating it in a different way?

If you die and do not believe your existance will continue after death, your existance will be obliterated. I was using it for dramatic effect ;)

If you build a house, it will still be there when you die. But if you go through 10 years of school, then another 7 in Secondary education and learn many wonderful crazy things in life, they will all go with you out of existance when you die. Your ethical and moral standpoints will go with you, along with the ability to contribute to any more social or personal projects. You will just not exist anymore. There are 6 billion people in the world, the contributions you make during your lifetime are rediculously small in the great scheme of things, the equivalent of a drop of water in the ocean. In 200 years nobody will even know your name. How does what you do matter in the long run?


please use the word penultimate correctly. It means "next to last". I'm going to assume you meant "most". Camus believed that the only important question in philosophy was whether or not life was worth living. And i'm inclined to agree. Your values in life depend or should depend on the answer to that question. If life has no meaning, why should you live it? For example, I see Bob opening and closing a door. I ask bob why he is opening and closing the door. He replies to me, it does not matter, i'm content doing it.

It's totally absurd for Bob to be doing this action over and over for no purpose. It also has no meaning and is pointless to continue doing so. I'm trying to discover for myself a real meaning to my life other than the ignorance of how strange it is for me to keep opening and closing the door.

Has anyone considered the possibility of an afterlife without the existence (or necessity) of a supreme being?

My belief system accepts that God is possible, but is not necessary to its existance.

Couldn't agree more.

Honeslty, I find it to be extremely weak to have to look up in the sky, see nothing and hear nothing, and find meaning there.

Well, you gotta define atheism first. You can believe in God and you can be an atheist also -- if you construct your definitions correctly.

The Christian belief, at base, says that God is in each of us -- a small spark of divinity. Thus, as you relate to other people, so do you relate to God. If you acknowledge that spark in other people and treat it as divine, and so honor and respect and love and assist other people in their times of need, you are worshipping God. You are also _being_ God. Because if _everybody_ believes it, and everybody treats everbody else like a partial manifestation of God, then we have a world in which everybody loves and respects everyone, no one hurts everyone, everyone rushes to assist everyone else -- a veritable paradise. In a construct like this, a supernatural being per se is not required -- just the belief in one.

So in that sense, I believe in God -- as a construct, but as one that almost has a life of its own. Can I live with that "God?" Damn straight. If everybody talked the talk and walked the walk of their religions, a dozen benevolent gods would in effect walk the earth, and what a glorious place it would/will be.

If you are looking up for heaven, you are looking in the wrong direction. Try looking IN instead. And God aside, if you look up and see nothing, then you are blind. Look at the size of universe, and tell me that there is nothing there worth seeing. Nothing worth dreaming about, nothing that makes you hope maybe there is a better place out there that someday we will get to. You don't need God to dream about things like that.

No, you can't. Atheism by definition is the disbelief in God. If you say everyone is God, or bits of god, you believe in god and are no longer an atheist.

But i don't think that's what you are trying to say. The way your argument is coming across to me is that you believe in certain qualities in people- trust, love, dependability, generosity- and saying that these qualities are what people should work towards. Which I find admirable, but does not have to much to do with the topic of the thread.

You're looking in the wrong direction.

I dont overcome the absurdity of life.

It is, on the evidence presented, absurd.

The guy got his definitions mixed up. He's talking about Pantheism, Spinozism or suchlike. The idea that everything is God. There is no conscious entity governing the universe in any way.

You, I, your computer, the rat thats probably about 10 metres from you, that bit of moldy cheese in the fridge, the dog star, electromagnetism, the sweat under your old physics tutor's armpits (they were always really sweaty, coffee breathed induvviduals, weren't they?) everything. It's all God.

It's a perfectly defensible position, if you take the leap of faith in moving from one act of creation to two; i.e. 1. Creation of the deity and 2. Creation of the universe according to the specs of that conscious or unconscious deity.

Myself? I apply Occam's Razor.

Re: Re: Finding meaning in your life without god
 

I'm saying that the belief in God is a mechanism for organizing these qualities. If everybody believes that God is in everyone else, then loving God means loving your neighbor, which means that everytime somebody gets in trouble, the "hand of God" or "the Holy spirit" is there to help them, through the people around them, just as predicted in whatever scriptures you're using. For it really to all work, of course, everybody has to actually live by the religion they profess. Not the mumbo-jumbo around the edges, not the ceremonies, but by the base values. That's where we fall down.

Of course, this construct of God didn't create the universe. I don't believe in a consciousness that created the universe and all of us -- I can't rule it out, but I'm not putting any money on it. So how does my mindset help me survive without a belief in a creator, especially one who might reward me or give me life after death? Because I believe that I'm incredibly lucky, just to be alive. I do believe that, as a race, we're moving forward to eventually construct something on earth that looks like the biblical heaven. I won't live to see it, but I will -- as you will -- be part of what made it happen. That's good enough for me.

Fair enough, but either way, that's not atheism

For me, the meaning of life is the search for the meaning of life.

Meaning is whatever and where ever you find it. Some people need God for it, some don't. A big problem that most Christians have is they seem to assume that just because someone doesn't believe what they do, the other persons life holds less meaning to them in the long run. Not believeing in God or even an after life of any sort does not mean that you don't believe in the long term ramifications of things, and the impact your life can have. You do one good thing, and change one persons life for the better, you have just done your part to become "imortal". That impact you had will live on through them, and every interaction they have with everyone they meet. Course the same thing goes if you really fuck someone over and screw up their life for good. So, if you believe in nothing else, then, IMHO, the best thing to do is stop looking for meaning and start MAKEING meaning.

I suppose, since I do believe in God (or gods). But only as an interactive and set of beliefs and behaviors in peoples' minds -- with the possibility of emergent behavior, as in any rule set. This kind of God has no independent existence, nor any power that cannot be raised out of mankind's own consciousnesses -- although the possibility for emergent behavior could possibly bring human consciousness, or at least society, to a new level.

life should not be spent prepairing for something afterward, it should be spent doing what you wish and having fun. I dont mean that you should be completely selfish and everything should be about advancing yourself. I dont believe in God, but I still leave a pretty decent life. I dont do things to get brownie points for some afterlife, I do what I enjoy. Thats all the meaning or motivation I need. Heaven (or whatever) is not the reward for a good life, a good life is the reward.

the meaning of life? if you look for it you'll never find it. the meaning comes from how you live it, not what happens when it ends.

also, I find this statement a bit presumptuous. Is a divine being the only source of meaning? Not in my world...

//sorry for the double post

Re: Finding meaning in your life without god
 

Ah, but the existence of god and Church means the existence of order, of an overall plan, that things happen for a reason, that someone is looking out for you, that evil will be punished and good deeds rewarded. The gaurantee of an afterlife is just one slice of the pie.

I am not an atheist, but I don't think God is an integral part of existence. I've come to accept unpredictability and believe that Man is flawed thanks mostly to poor impulse control. The invention of deity may be part of that flaw, especially when one version of Him tell His flock that the whole world is theirs to command, all animals and land theirs to do what they will. I have accepted the liklihood of oblivion after death and the liklihood that the Universe has no purpose but to exist. My goals are my own to set, and I try to enjoy my time while I have it, to learn, to teach, to watch, to act.

My 'meaning' in life is to simply help people and have a good, fun existence. I don't expect some divine gift for this, only to be remembered after I am gone.

To anyone who would say that it must be miserable to expect to simply cease existance after death, I retort: If you can convince yourself that a higher being is looking out for your soul, then I can convince myself that my life, though *limited*, is worth the effort.

To take "What is the meaning of life?" literally, the answer is Death.

Life means Death.

To take "What is the meaning of life" to be "What should i do before i die?" well, that's entirely to do with your own personal beliefs.

Believe in a God? Well then, you'd better get busy with trusting in and then obeying the commandments as laid out in The Book, by people who claim to have been in direct contact with the Supreme Being.

Those people, as an aside, who would be locked up in a moment and not allowed pens or pencils lest they hurt themselves or the medical staff, in other words (the cleaners and guards can look out for themselves - they're no great loss).

No God?

Well, then we're looking towards atheist schools of thought.

My particular preference is for buddhism, nihilistic buddhism to be precise.

We are born, we suffer, we die.

I'm just trying to get through to the end as best i can for myself, those around me and humanity in general.

Why yearn for meaning in everything?

Do nipples have any function on a man?

tisonlyi, the meaning of life I believe should have no connection with your imminent death. I know this must be contradicting some post I made furthur up in my thread, but I've been thinking about this for a while. What if you lived 1000 years? 10 000? What if you did not die? Eventually you will experience every range of emotion, ecsatcy, exruitiating pain, bitter heartbreak, and true love. All these things would meld together into a nightmare of mediocrity. What just is there to do after you have enjoyed life? It would be... boring.

There must be a greater meaning to life than this hedonism that most people are happy with. To live happily is not to live with meaning, in my opinion. I just don't know if i'll be able to find it.

For me I find meaning in what I do for other people. I want to leave behind a memory with people of a person who cared and did something for them. The students I've taught, the Social Services kids that I've helped, the neighbor that I helped when they needed it, the person I was a friend to when they thought they had none - those people may not hold that memory first and forfront but there will be some times they make think of what I did and hopefully it will encourage them and they may "pay it forward" even.

It's awesome to run into a student I taught several years ago and they still see me as a friend, remember me, and give me a hug. The love I give to others comes back multiplied much more. I want that to continue when I'm gone. That is what gives me purpose.

Especially my daughter. I want to give her the best start in life. I want to teach her confidence in herself and respect for others. If she grows up to do those two things, whatever her occupation or other choices in life then I will feel that I have built something that will last when I'm gone.

"There must be a greater meaning"

Why? Because you believe yourself important?

There are 6 billion other individuals who might have an arguement for that piece of intergalactic uniqueness you just claimed there, skier.

There is _no_ reason, _no_ evidence, nothing save our own desperate reachings to suggest that there is anything intrinsicaly valuable in human life.

"What if you lived 1000 years? 10 000? What if you did not die?"

Man, the universe works on a completely different timescale to the human mind. The Earth, The Sun and even the damn galaxy we're hurtling around are inconsequencial pieces of a much greater whole.

Eventually, it'll all be swallowed up, crushed and ejected as pure energy from a black hole - to become part of the endless vibration that is the background radiation of interstellar space - the only thing in the (very small) sections of the universe that we can observe as yet that stands a chance of making it into the top 20 of "Important Things In The Universe".

You are insignificant.
We are insignificant.
Our knowledge is insignificant.
Our future is insignificant.

You Will Die.
You Will Be Forgotten.
Your Race Will Die Out.
Your God Will Be Replaced, Then Forgotten - As Will It's Successors.

Give Up Your Vain Hope Of Immortality And LIVE NOW.

*puff, pant, wipes froth from edges of mouth*

my life has meaning even though im athiest, i dont know why you would think i would not think it does? (...?...)

any way my life has meaning even though it will end. the changes i make on the world are significant, and hold meaning.

tisonlyi, the main problem of your argument is that i agree with you. I didn't claim i was unique, or that I wanted to live forever. What I was saying (or trying to) was that people who just want to have a fun/good time and helping others enjoy theirs are just defining their lives on the death that's apporaching. In some part of their minds when they say these things, they think "i'll be dead soon, so I should enjoy life while i have it." I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or even a shallow view- in fact, for the time being it is my viewpoint as well. I'm just saying it's absurd and hedonistic for our lives to be this way. If you remove death, leaving only what fufills us in life, our current experiences are not ENOUGH to me. I feel there should be more to life and creation itself than to spin around and around in cycles of growth and destruction. I know i'm not a special flower, and most likely neither is the whole human race. But the universe? It may just be something one of a kind, unique and worthy of something more. I just have no comprehension of what that could be.

Just got to ask one thing on this one. Why would living for today be absurd and hedonistic? I'm not to good at quoting the bible and all of that, but didn't Jesus himself say something to the effects of live life for today don't worry about tomorrow? I might be wrong there. I mean, think about it for a minute, who is more absurd, the person that lives their life as a good person in hopes of some reward in an afterlife that may or may not come, or the person that believes in nothing beyound death, but lives a good and full life simple because it is the "right" thing to do?

If you find meaning in your life on the basis of a life after this one, this begs the question...

What is the meaning and purpose of your afterlife?

I believe this is what you are thinking of:

Jesus isn't saying to live hedonistically.

Rather, He is saying that we should live in the moment and not worry about tommorrow.

I don't find any meaning in life other than to live.

Everything you do is pointless in the grand scheme of things. Let's say you are THE best thing to happen to humanity, you give all the cures for cancer, solve the theories in quantum physics, etc etc... once the universe implodes on itself, it won't matter. Nothing will exist anymore. Nothing.

The more I progress through life, the more I take an agnostic point of view. It's very naive to think that a god just "poof" created everything out of the blue like explained in the Bible. The whole "heaven vs. hell" thing is very ape-like thinking, to me.

You're telling me that with all this science and discovery in quantum physics that's going on.. and alllll the interesting developments in biology, you expect me to think that all this was just created at the drop of a hat? At the same time, it's unreasonable to expect me as a human to be presented with all this stuff and take a stance on "I don't know if God exists." and later find out "well, you didn't believe in god during your life, so you're going to hell." That's kinda bs.

On the other hand... something is up. Everything about the universe, energy, everything... something is causing it. Dunno if it's a "God" or just the natural way of the way things are..

Not enough prove to believe, not enough proof to disbelieve, but definitely think a lot of the "rules" in religions were created way back when to police the people. It's definitely easier to spook people into behaving by convincing them that there's this almighty being that will grant you enternal paradise for being good and one that will eternally damn you if you're bad.

Perhaps to evaluate your existance, and plan for the next incarnation......who can know, but it is interesting to ponder.

As for the whole "God vs. QM" thing, why not just accept that they could both be correct. There can be no difinative truth in this regard. Each will be right in the pursuit of truth.

Both "God" and "science" fascinate me, as I will never completely understand either one.

I feel some people are getting meaning and purpose confused. While purpose can give something meaning, it is not the only way of deriving meaning for something. So what i'm saying is life doesn't need to have a purpose to have meaning :)

Re: God vs. QM

I definitely keep an open mind and don't disregard the possibility of a higher being/consciousness/energy. Like I said, not enough proof to believe, not enough proof to disbelieve.

I do believe there's a connection somewhere, somehow. It's probably in a form we're not expecting nor could we ever comprehend.

This stuff drives me insane. I'm totally fascinated with QM, but I spent so many months, night after night just lying in bed contemplating how everything fits together, trying to make sense of it all that I got to the point where I needed a break. Now I'm getting back into it, back into the many nights of sleepless thinking ;)

Yes, but the point that I got out of the last one, and I could just be reading things wrong, wouldn't be the first time I've done it, is that by not believeing in an after life or anything means that we are just living for today and being "absurd and hedonistic". I'm just trying to point out that you can live for today, not believe in a damn thing after death, and still not see or live life as absurd OR hedonistic. Life simply is. Do what you can to make the most of it, and be the best person you can be, and worry about the afterlife when you are dead. Know what I mean Vern?

A little of subject here, but I just think it is funny the quantum physics seems to have proved there is a God, and that magic is real. 3rd law of QP, I think is is. "The intent of the observer affects the object observed". That is mind over matter, and that is the basics of "magic". Also with the Unification Theory they are working on to bring QP and reguler physics together, they point out that in order for anything to happen in the univers, it has to be observed. We don't really have to "see" it, just be aware of it, as they put it. When the woman, I can't remember her name, was asked who is observing the univers, she answerd "Us", and gave that as the explination. Now, who observed it to set off the Big Bang?

I would mostly agree with what you said.

It sorta was actually. =p

Belief that there is a concept called "God", which exists in people's minds, is not really something an atheist would deny. And that's the only belief mentioned.

They give a meaning for one's life on earth possibly. Heaven-based religions, however, give no real basis for existance, other than hedonism. They just offer infinite reward for playing the game while you live as a carrot. Hedonism, thinly vieled. Reincarnation religions offer hedonism by reincarnating 'better' often.

If one's life is but a part of the story, then raise your arguement to 'what meaning does existance have', and the tricks religions use tend to fall apart.


Refuting. You said 'the things you do [in life] have meaning', then wondered 'how do [the things you do in life] give your life meaning'?

It seems you have distingished between your life and the things that you do in your life. If you remove that distinction, there is an answer for you.

Your existance will still have been. Nothing was destroyed by your death, in a wierd way: all events, consequences and actions done are not undone.

I hope you talked to other people in those 17 years. What you learned and passed on will not go away, it will persist. The line will continue.

You can't contribute to social projects that occur after you die, nope, I agree. Well, not directly: you could set up foundations, inspire others, etc etc. But that is only the central part of existance, so don't worry about it. =)

You are diminished by the fact the universe is large?

Imagine if the universe consisted of you and a flower, on a rock floating in space. Just because there was nothing except you and the flower, would that make your actions mean any more? I would argue no: with less other there is fewer chances to matter, fewer consequences to your actions.

The universe is a big place. A cute fact, but really, so what? Why does that make your existance matter less? It gives you that much more to look at, that much more to touch, that much more to experience.

Just as your life shouldn't be defined by the fact it is about to end, your importance shouldn't be defined by the ratio of your mass to that of the universe.

Heh, sorry about that. I caught my misuse and forgot to remove it. =)

I disagree. As your belief system doesn't seem to have any use to me (it doesn't imply anything useful, nor does it seem to be backed with any evidence), and it seems that it makes you feel insignificant and useless, I will keep my beliefs, and you can go play with yours if you insist.

I don't need a reason to exist, not in some holy roller philosophical way. I mean, I exist because my parents had a baby, if you want a 'reason'. But that isn't what you are looking for.

Assertion without basis, as far as I can tell. I mean, I wouldn't join him, mainly because I don't like people named bob, but you are claiming his actions are absurd for no reason that I can see.

Make one up. I mean, I can write down reems of meanings you can select from.

The universe is the single most interesting thing you have ever seen. If you can't find meaning in a place this wonderous and interesting, quite possibly you should just give up and quit. Be polite and quiet about it, and try not to distirb those of us who are still enjoying ourselves.

The fact we live in a large reality doesn't mean we are any less for it. 6 billion humans diminishes you not at all.

However, I did say I could give you some meanings. How about:
It is quite possible (I'd even say probable)[1] that humankind is one of the first intelligent lifeforms in the universe, if not the only. Your ideas and their decendants may one day outlive every proton in the universe: they may live on without bounds.

--
[1] Why do I say it is possible or probable we are an early intelligent lifeform?

Let say humanity is still going 100,000 years from now. I'd fully expect we'd have left the solar system and have colonized adjacent solar systems. Lets assume 10 stars are colonized.

Given a 0.1% population growth rate over the long term, every 1000 years or so humanity will have colonlized twice as many stars.

There are about 100 billion stars in the Galaxy.

So, 33,000 years later every star in the Galaxy will have been colonized. (10 * 2^33 is about 100 billion)

In case you haven't been keeping track, we are still talking about a blink of an eye in the lifetime of the universe. And, for those who don't know their astrogeography, we actually couldn't pull this off because the Milky Way is 300,000 to 100,000 light years in diameter.

Basically, our rate of colonization becomes only limited by relativity.

And, with a few thousands of years of more technology, we should be able to pack civilization seeds into relatively small machines, and make them move at speeds relatively close to that of light.

Intelligence, once it is past gestation, should be able to spread at relativistic speeds over the entire universe. So, if intelligence that passes the gestation phase isn't rare as yet, we'd have been colonized by them before we ever got here...

How is that for a grand purpose to place meaning in? I can give you foma that might be more to your liking if that one isn't pleasant enough for you.

thanks man, you've given me some stuff to think about while i'm doin my studying. I'll cogitate for the next few days and give you my reply then.

Do the after effects count? Let's say nothing was around to observe the big bang, but later formed to observe and experience the after effects.

What about each of us as a person? None of us today were alive during the Revolutionary war, so how can we be certain it happened? What about events that happened before you were born? You didn't observe them. Did they happen?

By the theory they are working out, the big bang couldn't have happened unless someone was there to observe it in some fashion. It is not hte finnaly theory, but it is what they got so far, or at least last time I heard anything on it. So unless there is something or someone out there that can see time in reverse.....

There were people around fot he Revolutionary war, so it was observed, but in a way, we are observing the RW, even now. I observe people that are older then me, and they observe people older then them, ect, all the way back. There is a chain of observation that can be followed. Where it get's tricky is where the chain starts, and who started it. Does it start, or does it loop back on itself somehow? But that, is even farther off topic, so I won't get into it.

Re: QM requires an observer.

Some Interpritation of QM imply that reality requires "observation" (usually without defining "observation" well). Others do not.

Read Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics

What you are talking about is the "Consciousness Causes Collapse", or the "Copenhagen interpretation" with "Consciousness" being the only measuring device.

There are other interpritation that don't require a consciousness present, or observing the consequences of, the big bang. My personal favourate is the Many-worlds interpretation.

Note: my knowledge of QM comes from a math background, various pop-sci sources, a housemate who does research in quantum computation, a PhD student friend of mine, and the wikipedia. I am not an authority on the subject.

Holy shit.. a lot of that "many worlds interpretation" is shit I've thought of on my own without ever having seen that before..

Like instances where I have a headache, I've always thought (since I was younger) "what if I had an anuerysm then and died.. and this dimension is one in which my life continues on?"

Very crazy.

I find that my meaning in life is to become fulfilled. To be able to look back at my life when I'm older and to be able to think that I've done just about everything I wanted to do and that I can be happy with what I have done in my life. I don't believe, however, that I need 'God' to fulfill myself, I don't need 'God' to help me find a meaning in my life, because I can do that on my own. Does that answer your question any?

If god exists why doesn’t he give more proof to show us that the way we picked was the right way? On the other hand, if we have to be shown the way, do we understand enough to be accepted into the next life?

I Don't Think Too Much About The Big Question
 

In my late twenties, I thought too much about the how did we get here, how can any of this exist question. And it didn't get me anywhere, so these days I force myself not to contemplate too much about the unanswerable questions. It doesn't go anywhere.

I find more satisfaction is analyzing what I don't believe in. So, I do research into the history of Christianity and Islam, and get comfort from my conclusions relating to those religions.

I know that it is a hard thing to do, but, in the long run, I would recommend that not thinking too much about the hard questions leads to more peace of mind.

We are still discussing the meaning of life? I thought that Douglas Adams solved that riddle (its 42). Seriously though as an agnostic I believe that people should live their lives in the same way they would if their were a God or if there weren’t a God. If you spend your whole life just waiting around for God to show up then you have wasted it. Likewise, if you spend your whole life just doing whatever feels good at the moment then that’s wasting it too. Personally I try to live my life to make the world around me a little better place so that when I am gone my brief existence added to society and the betterment of mankind. And if there be a God I hope that he will look kindly upon my actions, and if there isn’t a God then at least I won’t have wasted my life waiting around to be raptured.

What makes you think that we (athiests/agnostics) need a meaning to our lives?

You live

You die.

~~{Game Over}~~

as an atheist, I don't think that life is absurd at all. *I* create meaning for myself. I happen to find meaning in enlightened self-interest, and when I die my legacy will be the people I've helped, that's all. Sounds ideal but hell, it'll be true (I hope).

I think the purpose of life, well, not really the purpose, but a way to maximize the time you have, is to do only things that cause your brain to release the brew of chemicals that make you feel good. If one dedicated one's life to inducing a state of happiness and well being, I'm sure that our DNA would be very pleased.

Meaning in your life without.....Dragons.....Santa Clause......etc

If you don't accept the "GOD" hypothesis, then there is no need to explain why you don't need it for meaning. Many find meaning in existance, experience, love,pain, or any number of "things". God is there for some and not for others, It has little bearing on fulfillment, and meaning in the life of a non believer.
God to me, is like a lace viel in front of a tombstone. I am aware there is an inscription, and I know what the stone means. But this damn frilly thing is keeping me from understanding what is written, and thus,who (the universe) could be under the ground.

The whole crux of modern existentialia is that "Meaning" isn't intrinsic in the universe.

I am a theist (belive in a God). I believe the god has a plan. But I believe in radical freedom (non-determinism).

My essence DOES NOT precede my existence. So I choose my essence- I also choose, then, my meaning.

Meaning doesn't mean purpose or goal or any such thing.

The MEANING of life is WHY life. So purpose is a PART of it, sure. But not all of it.

The only true escape from pain and anguish is suicide, then. Otherwise one must embrace it and reject it at once ( Think Camus) or they can live in "bad faith" (Sartre's rejection of a "subconscious" leads to a state where a conscious might lie to itself- in Camus terms, it is being metaphysically dead).

Re: Finding meaning in your life without god
 

Personally, I don't look for a meaning- Life doesn't have one. Except maybe to just live and try for the best future possible. These days it's all just a power struggle. I don't give up just yet because I am afraid of the potential that I have. I may have a great future and giving up could be giving up on that future.

Day by day is the way to live. Whether there is a God or not, tomorrow you or I will or won't wake up. One thing is certain; all my questions will be answered at the end. At least that's how I make sense of it. We will all have definite answers in time.

i believe the purpose of life is to love god, have a relationship with him.

the rules are just there for our own good, but i dont think there are negative consequences other than pushing our individual realities away from the absolute reality of god, making it harder to keep the relationship.

if you love god, it follows that you should show love to those he loves, the rest of humanity.

an existance based around any emotion other than love is a waste in my mind.

For those who believe in God.

What is the meaning of your life once you've made it into heaven?

It's easy to find meaning. Just pretend you are a lower form of life. Take away all your thought and reason, and just reproduce. There you are. The meaning of life. To pass on your genetic code. Lucky for us we have developed the minds to enjoy ourselves in this process we call life. Do you have children of your own? Perhaps if you did, you could see the 'meaning' in them. Your own little creations. I think that if you have to believe in something that was created during the dawn of mankind as a way to control the masses to make you happy, then your life here must suck. Sorry, I just don't worry about it. I love to spend time with my family and go hiking and enjoy the trees and animals and nature, etc. You ever just sit at the beach for hours watching the waves? I recommend it. Just don't wonder about who created it. Instead wonder about who has enjoyed it before you, before man even. Oops, I apologize, I seem to be rambling again.

To look for heaven, is to live here in hell.

Skier I think you hit the nail on the head in one of your earlier posts. You mentioned finding meaning for yourself. You don't need a god to do that.

I may just be assuming too much, but god has probably never personally talked to you. There is a reason for that I believe.
If you define god as the creator of all and giver of meaning (as it seems a lot of us do) You eliminate Him from our observable frame of reference. (e.g. if god created time he must exist independent of time, which means he exists outside our universe. If our universe is defined "as all that is" or at least all that we can observe, then god is unobservable to us.)

The whole point being that everyone lives without God because even if he exists no one can prove or disprove it.

Essentially we are alone in the universe, by which I mean no other being can know our minds so well as ourselves. And, if there is no god to give us meaning who better to do it than ourselves? If you need to believe that there is some great plan for everything it is certainly within your capability to find one. Who is to say that it is wrong? No one truly knows what there is no evidence for so it can't logically be contested.

It sounds like you're struggling a little. I hope that helped...:(

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considering the topic (haven't read the posts yet), i thought this was appropriate and amusing. :)

edited to learn html!

I disagree. To me it seems like like it talkes a much more "strong minded" person to thing about such things and figure it out for him/herself.

As for my answer, I agree with Lebell. Even if I'm wrong about God, I've lived a good life, which to me is important.

I would submit that purpose and meaning are actually the same concepts.

That being said it is up to each person to find there own purpose and meaning in life .Such things should be defined by the person not by the church or by the bible or by any manmade theological source. Being an agnostic I beleive in god I just dont do it in the same way that other people do. Why would he or she have given us the ability to make our own choices if he/she would then condemn us for the choices we made that detered a bit from what he/she had intended. Besides how can you be sure that your faith is the correct interpretation? For hundreds of years the bible has been written and re-written from one language to another and edited extensively by kings and religious figures who may have found it politically convenient to judiciously edit gods pages of scripture. I'm not saying all peoples of the christian faith are wrong. I'm simply saying that you should find you own path, meaning, purpose and faith. Life is short you should live it well rather that worrying about what happens after. I've never met the creator but i'm told that he is quite reasonable and compassionate.

I'm with many others of the mind that living a life that I enjoy and that my friends and family enjoy is all the meaning I need. I also believe that one can make a huge difference in the universe in their lifetime. By being kind to others and being a friend and such, you make an incredible difference in the universe of that person. If the universe that which is observed, then each person has their own, and any individual can make a difference. So you don't need god so much as the people around you to find meaning in life.

OK, let's say there is a god (for the sake of argument only - I don't know if there is or is not, and neither do any of you - it's called faith, not fact ;) )

We have to figure out whether this god is a part of the universe that he created or if this god created the universe but is outside of it. In other words, when the universe collapses, will god cease to exist as well, or will he be sitting on the outside watching it happen? The same question applies to heaven - I've never heard any religion address whether or not heaven is a part of the universe or not. If it's a part of the universe, then even the residents of heaven (angels/spirits/souls/whatever) will cease to exist when the universe ceases to exist and therefore even the religious are just marking time until their own demise - only difference is that they think they won't cease to exist until several billion years from now, whereas those who do not believe in god/the afterlife think they've got 100 years or so if they're lucky.

What it all boils down to is that none of us knows why we're here or what our purpose is or what will happen after we die. I personally don't believe that the biblical version of god exists, and i don't believe there's a heaven waiting for me when I die.

So why don't I just nip off and shoot myself right now - after all what's the point, I'm gonna die anyway so why bother going through the hardship of living? I'd say it's because 1) others don't feel that way and my life may have a positive influence on theirs. 2) why bother shooting myself? I've got all of eternity not to exist, why not make the most of existing while I've got the chance?

Everything is meaningless. Life and afterlife.

As an atheist, I live for no reason and die forever.

As a theist, I live to get into heaven, and then I stay in heaven, never to leave again. How is there any meaning in that either?