What if Jesus died without witnesses? Would we be saved?
 

What if Jesus had died in a prision without anyone watching, and with none there to mourn or torture him, would we be saved?

Are we "saved" right now?

i reccomend you read chuck palahniuk's survivor, if you haven't already
the same guy that wrote fight club
its a satirical novel about celebrity and questions such as this
its very darkly humorous, very enjoyable

I guess we would still be "saved" but wouldn't know it. Or we would all be saved by Allah, instead.

Hmmm....Just a thought, Without Jesus, we could all be following the life of the Buddah, what a peaceful world it would be.

Ha that's actually where I got this question from. So I thought I'd post it here.

If a tree falls in the forest, but there's no one there, does it make a sound?

If a prophet is crucified, but there's no one there...

Since any belief system -- whether you accept it as the one and true one, or not -- depends on actual _belief,_ then no, Jesus couldn't have saved anyone if no one knew of his sacrifice. Because they wouldn't believe it, and wouldn't change their behavior accordingly.

Some people believe that Jesus died "for our sins," but you also here in liturgy and scripture that Jesus was "the perfect sacrifice," and that means something else. In old Jewish society, only priests and others who were ritually kept "clean" could make sacrifices to God and thus communicate with him/her/it meaningfully. God was separate from ordinary men. Jesus, in being considered the perfect sacrifice, was the _last_ sacrifice ever to be required; God and man now were together (the Holy Spirit), instead of relying on priests as intermediaries (and believe me, the priests in those days milked that role for all the power and privilege they could.)

I'm warping the argument a little, because I don't remember it perfectly, though that's the gist. But basically, if you didn't know that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, you wouldn't know that you could be close to God on your own; and you wouldn't be.

This all said as an agnostic, of course, but a good church-attending one.

If what is said about his death is true, then it wouldn't matter if we saw it, the existence omnipotence doesn't depend on observation.

So Jesus didn't need to be crucified for us to be saved?

Not in my opinion.

I haven't read survivor so I probably don't know all of the background of the question, but here goes.

I don't think it really matters since, afterall Jesus had a lot of followers before he was killed, so even if he died in prision without all the drama of a crucifiction, they probablly would have noticed he was missing. I imagine that simmilar traditions would have developed around him, though obviously you would end up with a different Easter story. The jist would be the same though: he died for our sins, we are forgiven if we accept him as our sacrifice, as this was established before he was arrested at the last supper.

But maybe I misunderstand the question. Is it really "what if Jesus dies before proclaiming his message"?

Basically. Also did Jesus actually say that he died for our sins or did the apostles make that up later?

So no answers?

Anyone who says they have a definative answer to your question, Is lying, or confused. You are asking for opinions, not facts.

If you want an opinion, OK.

Jesus probably died for many reasons, and many people have likely put words into his mouth in an attempt to add weight to their own causes.
The reality is.....Nobody actually knows, for fact, what he said, and there is no possible way to verify anything as the words of Jesus. There is only reasonable speculation, and politically motivated manipulation of text.

"new version"
There is an argument that goes, if Jesus had to die for our sins then we should thank those who killed him. Therefore, hug a Jew today! For, otherwise we would not be saved. It is a small problem I have with the crucifixion story, but one that a creative mind can get around if he or she wants to cling to his or her faith.

When Jesus says "God why have you forsaken me?" it tells me that he doesn't know that he has to die for our sins. Of course, it could also mean that he knows he doesn't have to die for our sins and is kinda mad that God put him in that position.


"old version (I think I was drunk when I wrote this)"
To join this discussion late, for Christianity to make sense, Jesus could not have died for our sins. If this is so, then the Jews HAD to do what they did. We should therefore lionize them for killing the "Son of God." You can't condemn another people for saving all of humanity, can you?

By the way, if Jesus says "God why have you forsaken me?" then he probably didn't have anything to do with the claim that he had to die for our sins. But, then, we have no way to tell because the Bible was written at least decades after the events that are reported.

So is the bible ethical in saying that he did?

Hmmm.....biblical ethics, are you sure you want to go there.
Ethics are relative to the observer, and are thus almost as difficult to pin down as the bible itself. When you combine the two, it will be quite a journey to come up with anything definative.

Try this for an ethics review of biblical text:

Is the bible ethical in telling you you cannot wear multi-colored clothing?
Is the bible ethical in telling women to be subserviant to men?
Is the bible ethical in condoning discrimination against other religions?

I mean, come on. This would be an endless debate if we took the bible for verbatim word of god.

Didn't jesus say, "Forgive them" while on the cross? Isn't this forgiveness along with the concept that he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven the crux of the passion?

Add to this his message that anyone can reach heaven, love thy neighbour, the meek shall inheirit, etc.

He brought an egalitarian approach to the Jewish faith... this, of course angered those in power.

skullfunk,

i've read and reread your post... i still don't have a clue how you arrived at those conclusions. care to elaborate?

Yes, I believe we would be saved, or at least those who chose to accept Christ as their saviour. Of course if you don't accept christ as your saviour then your on your own... does this mean you automatically go to hell? No, just makes it a heck of a lot harder. Think of it as having to do a heart transplant, you can do it yourself or get a surgeon to do it.

But what if you just accepted God but not Jesus?

Guess you would be tossed back and forth between christian hell, and everyone elses heaven.

... and the difference being ?????

It would seem the difference is dependent on what your fundamental understanding of the term "God" is. In most Christian sects, Jesus is the son of this God entity, but given human form. God however, is considered the creator, and generally an omnipotent creature of all knowing proportions.

The question considers the possibility that many humans consider the God entity as a plausible explanation in one form or another, but a minority of humans are followers of the Christ.
At least this is how I see the question.

So in essence it is asking if those who do not follow the Christian Biblical interpretation of "God" and Jesus, are indeed in for the rough ride you proclaim.

Oh, then yes.

*Buckles seat belt*

Well, it would sure throw a wrench in the whole "witness" aspect of the Jehovah's Witnesses...

Just curious, but what would it matter?

If Jesus died for our sins, then it doesn't matter if we change our behavior because the sins we commit will be forgiven regardless.

Unless, of course, there's fine print somewhere that states otherwise.

I am sorry if I am repeating what someone else on the forum said but if Jesus died alone in a prison without going through all the circumstances of the crucifixion would anyone even think of saying he died for our sins to save us from hell, or would we still be reading the old testament believing in a religion before Jesus?

Not really small print but a continuation in the explanation of how it works....
Yes Jesus died for our sins, but you must ask Jesus into your heart and be willing to follow his will in order for him to "redeem" you (forgiveness). If you choose not too, then his sacrifice does not aply to you. Hence you can still go to hell.

Then everyone who isn't a Christian is going to hell?

Depends on your belief...
You also have to be carefull with labels, you kind of have to look at the origin and what it's based in.

So if you believe in God but not Jesus, then you could go to hell?

All but 43,672 of us are going to Hell. Those who are chosen are the "true" believers, the rest of us are toast.I personally, have a reserved condo on the shore of a really ugly sulfer lake , near the bog of eternal stench. Although I have not had the opportunity to meet the landlord (overlord), indications are the folks next door are pretty cool, and winters are mild.
For the other 6,989,596,252 of you......I can give you my realtors number, if you like.

Sure, if you choose to. I don't recommend it.

That's pretty fucked up :hmm:

I think the whole concept of salvation is flawed. A supreme being giving humans "free will" and then tell them what they can't do is rather sadistic, especially when salvation is viewed as binary and the "0" is a rather nasty place. I reject the concept of salvation, so I guess that my answer would be no if Jesus was watched and no if he was watched.

What surprises me is the vast amount of people who see NOTHING wrong with that logic, don't even question it once, and don't see how contradicting it is.

So, in order to be saved by the person that died for everyone's sins... I have to believe in him, otherwise I'm SOL? I thought god was all about compassion and love? Surely a being that infinite and cosmic would understand that I'm only human, and in THIS day and age if I happen to think outside of the box and decide that due to all the science, microbiology, evolution, etc floating around that religion is *most likely* not real, I shouldn't be punished for it. That's pure BS. Even in the midst of all this contracition, how could I NOT be expected to come to a conclusion that something is SERIOUSLY flawed in all of this? I'm expected to just ignore it and believe? That's not right.

It's flawed every which way you look at it.

What about being baptised? Doesn't that negate all sin that you were to commit during your lifetime? There's fine print with that too, isn't there?

I'm not 100% against believing in some god-like being, but silly rules and contradictions like this surely don't help things any :rolleyes:

Re: What if Jesus died without witnesses? Would we be saved?
 

Everyone take a good look. This thread is based on the assumption that Jesus exists. If you don't share that belief than fine, but make an aguement based on the "assumption" that there is. If you want to debate God and his existence or to what extent He should accpet you based on "your" terms, then may I suggest you start a thread on that topic. Just a thought.

I was on topic!

I'm replying to the topic as if he exists. I'm simply asking how the rules make any sense.

[edit]

To elaborate, I'm trying to clarify all the contradictions. I don't exactly know the bible in and out, but there are a few things I'd like cleared up. What better place to ask it than in a thread about Jesus and his sacrifice?

To reiterate, I thought god was compassionate and loving? If so, why is the ONLY exception to being saved to believe?

Also, what is the purpose of being baptised? I thought getting baptise negated any sin one was to commit in his life?

Lastly, what is the definition of "believe"? Do I have to 100% without a doubt believe in Jesus or god to be saved? What if there's a .01% chance in my mind that says "Well, science is quite interesting and.. well, I don't really know if there's a god.." Does that mean I'm a nonbeliever and I'm going to hell? Like right now in my life, I'm pretty young (23) and I have a keen interest in science, but later as I approach the final stages of life, I might decide to take up a religion just for the benefit of the doubt.. the "well, what if there was a god..?" Would that NOT count since my only purpose in believing at that point is to be "saved"?

Are there actual reasons/explanations for any of these and how they kinda.. void each other out, do I have the wrong idea, or are these rules just supposed to be believed without any questions as a "that's just the way they are, I don't know why" type of thing?

God will accept those into heaven who accept him into their hearts. I think that's pretty compaasionate. Knowing that, then refusing to do so is a ... interesting choice. A choice that a person would have to live with. It's not God saying you can or cannot enter, it's you. He set out the guidelines, it's up to you to follow them or not.

Ok, so what about baptism?

What about the part where I asked if you had to believe all out 100%. Let's say I think, for the most part, that I believe in god, but there's a part of me that thinks "what if...". Is that not believing in god?

If that thought is always and forever in my head, and being a human and having to deal with a thing like thought, mind, and choice, how could I ever honestly truly 100% believe? Would I be lying ot myself? What if I WANT to believe, but can't because of that thought? What if I tell others, "Yes, I believe" and I attend church, live by the rules, etc.. but deep deep down, there's doubt.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is... will he understand that I am human and that I will think and feel such things, or will he say "You're only pretending to believe. Sorry, eternity in hell for you"?

Surely there's SOME part of you that wonders "what if.."

Yes, he'll understand that you're human, he won't expect you to be perfect. As long as you make an honest effort. At least that's what I believe.

Well, we actually have an interesting aside on this question.

What about the opposite situation, where, say, Jesus never existed, but over the years older mythologies (the Hero mythologies of the Greeks, the story of Zarathrustra, the story of Appolonius of Tyana, for example) became incorporated into a story about a person named Jesus who lived, died, and lived again.

What if Jesus never existed, but over many centuries the myths became believed by so many people that a major religion evolved. However, at the core, there is no such thing as salvation or everlasting life, because Jesus never existed?

Would people still have everlasting life if they believed the mythology?

Interesting idea for a thread, you should start one.

I think so.

The witnesses weren't important, it was the fact that he died that saved us.

witnesses were fundamental--and which witnesses should be the "real" ones was debated at the council of nicea, after constantine converted and all that. they are, in the main, funny kinds of witnesses, writing well after the events, something like 150 years. but still. without the texts, there would be no story. without the story, there would be no belief. qed.

You have peeked my interest.
In your opinion, would I be doomed to the depths if I accepted my personal version of this entity, rather than the one in numerous texts. If indeed I have "Faith" in the god I percieve to be true, and it is not the same one you refer to, would your chosen aspect of this deity forgive my ignorance, and allow me access to paradise?

Yes, there are answers, go to the source to find the answers.

I am sorry....I do not understand the reply.
Elaborate please?

You, asking us what God's reasoning is. We can only speculate, so ask him yourself, get the direct answer.

Well, I was actually asking for your personal opinion, but that's OK. Thanx.

My personal opinion is you would go to hell. God would at least give you the oportunity to change your belief and be forgiven. If you chose not to then I think you would go to hell.