what are valid reasons for suicide?
 

some people seem to think that there are at least a few valid reasons for suicide. Others seem to think it's all out wrong. so, my question to you is: what are good reasons to kill yourself? Is it ever justified?

My opinion, is that cases of extreme pain, where going on just isn't an option, justified suicide. I do not think that said pain must be physical. Perminant psychological torture is just as painful as physical torture, and I don't see the need for distinction between the two. I often hear that suicide is selfish, because people don't think of the one's they leave behind. This perplexes me, because whenever I was hurting, I was always told to take care of myself, before worrying about others. Which is it?

Well i think the problem with judgeing whether or not suicide can be justifiable is that there's so many thing's telling you whether it can be or not. Religion, family, society, friends, whatever culture you hang around, and your personal thought's and beliefs, but i have alway's believed that if you are in so much mental or physical pain that you can't go on and you see NO possible way or there is no possible way to make it stop then there is such a thing as justifiable suicide. Well thats my two cent's.

<(^_^)>

I don't think so.

Unless you are suffering from an incurable illness or you are 100 years old in a hospital bed suffering, there is no reason to kill yourself.

What may suck for you today may have an easy fix that you have not found yet.

Most people that commit suicide think there is no one around that cares if they are gone or not but in reality a lot of people care. There are entire centers of people that care enough to volunteer time to talk you out of killing yourself.

Life can be suck but there is always something good going on in your life. You just have to find that something and latch onto it until everything else evens out a bit.

I've always looked at suicide as a permanant soultion to a temporary problem!
I suppose the terminal illness thing could be a valid exception for some people.
for me.........haveing no exceptions, has kept me from becomeing suicidal

Suicide is always justified to those who attempt it. It is a hasty response to negative pressure, of course, but to suggest that there are "valid reasons" and "invalid reasons" for suicide is a bit unusual.

I'm probably goin to step on some toes with this, but one of my ex-gf's, when she was a child, her father molested her. He also would beat on her on occassion, and various other things. She tried to commit suicide many times, for which I don't blame her. I don't think anyone can call that a temporary problem. She's going to suffer from those abuses for the rest of her life. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like to see her commit suicide, but being someone who somewhat knows her position, I wouldn't blame her for it.

Had she succeeded, Fallon, it would have been tragic. You aren't suggesting that ending her own life would have been justified, are you? There is a world of difference between a botched suicidal cry for help and ending your life.

Yes indeed, it would have been tragic, nor am I saying that it would have been justified, I'm saying I'd understand why she did it though.
I suppose for me it's easier to understand because I know the girl and know to an extent what's shes been though. Also with my previous close calls with ending my own life

Ever watched "ITs a Wonderful Life", its got some truth in it. Fallon if you or your gf were no longer alive, you wouldn't be there to comfort each other. People can be worn down and not in there "right" mind but hopefully they won't go all the way, but will escape whatever is exasperating them.

But, if they weren't there, I wouldn't know that I'd be missing them. It's an interesting argument to say, if they are dead, you'd be different. Yes, that's quite true. I most certainly would be different, but I'm the way I am right now because of the steps in life that I have taken, and the steps that those around me have taken. Because of some of the people I knew killing themselves, I've also taken different steps.

Now for my ex-gf, she's going to be tormented by what's happened to her, and it's not suddenly not be a problem for her anymore.

Justifiable suicide is an interesting concept. I can't think of any situaitons off the top of my head where you would be justified to sit down and end your life.

However, I can think of some situations where the circumstances dictate that if you take action A, then you will die. I think that would fall into the realm of suicide and could be considered justifiable. For instance: Any action that appears to be certain death for you, but you willingly make that decsion in order to save someone else.

what if your choice is between suicide and being tortured to death, like if you are captured as a POW by fighters known to torture soldiers they capture?

Personally I think that most people commit suicide in order to run from their conceived (or real) problems. I view it as the proverbial easy way out. I do believe though that it would be justifiable in extreme cases of illness.
My Mother's best friend nursed her own Mother through years of cancer treatment. She watched her wither and die slowly in vast vast amounts of pain over the course of a long period of time. Once she had passed on, my Mother's friend told her that she would kill herself in order to not have to go through that herself or to put family members through it. Makes you stop and think. If I saw my own Mother in intense pain and knew that there was no solution and the end result would be the same....I would do my damndest to allow her a quick and painless death compared to possible years of suffering.

And....good point firefly you made about being a POW. I think then a lot of people would view suicide in a different light.

What do you think are the determining factors in whether suicide is "justified" or not? Is immense physical pain a factor, but psychological/emotional pain is not?

From my experience, my emotional scars have been much more painful than physical. The times that I've seriously thought about suicide have been times of intense emotional duress, not times when I was physically ill for days or weeks.

i think the only justifiable suicide is doctor assisted suicide. if i'm a vegetable, if i'm living on machines to keep me alive.. i dont think i'd want to keep on living. whats the point? what joys do i see? i'm just..breathing. when animals suffer, the right thing to do is end their life bcos it's better to be dead than to suffer physically until death. why isn't it the same for humans?

but generally, i don't think suicide is the answer at -all-. it is a cry for help. it is the easy way out. life, with all it's emotions and ups and downs, IS suffering. there will be moments when you'll suffer. some more than others for different reasons. truama. depression. etc. but its part of living. if it's not time to die, then you have to start living.

So, hypothetical response here. Let's say I'm Timmy, a 22 year old who's got nothing to account for in his life, he can't say anything good about his life, all of the choices he's had to make have been hard ones. Such as, live here till next month, or eat? He's never had an easy choice in his life. Finally he starts contemplating suicide, and finally decides that he's going to...
Now, is that him taking "the easy way out?"

edit: Just want to make sure to say that the situation above about housing or food would have been one of his easier ones.

My friends 15 year old brother got his 14 year old girlfriend preggie and she died in childbirth with the baby. After this he killed himself. I found that justifiable.

I've mentioned before that there was a point in my life where I was on an extremely high dose of morphine while hospitalized. The morphine was (obviously) for an extreme amount of pain that I was in. During that period, the doctors didn't think there would be much of a chance of survival. During that point, when I knew I was going to die in a horribly drawn out and painful manner, the thought of suicide did enter my mind. Luckily, I didn't want to act on it. Before and after, I didn't want to do it, but the thought during that time was there.

After all of that, I still agree with the idea of assisted suicide. I know what it's like to sit in pain, knowing that my last moments would only be pain. I didn't like that thought much even though I would never had acted on it, even given the opportunity.

i only said it's an easy way out because life IS hard. killing yourself as the solution to it would be the easiest thing to do. why not think about your situation, how you could change it positively, and act on that? sure, it'll be hard as hell and won't change overnight, but what have you got to lose, really. if life works against you, learn to make it work for you. with confidence and action comes freedom.

While I can certainly understand why a person would want to commit suicide in that situation and certainly wouldn't fault someone for choosing suicide, I personally would not think it's justified. I think that suicide as an escape from great physical or mental pain is not the answer. Pain is temporary and can be tolerated or dealt with on some level.

i think suicide or euthanasia is justified. However, i can't really comment on the other because i have never experienced such emotional pain and torment such that i'd consider doing that. That said, i have been mildly effected by some suicides and i do think it is a little selfish (no pun) in that everyone who cares about you suffers because of you. But that might be unreasonable to some... i dunno.

ah, but sleepyjack, what if that's part of the revenge? "You people have hurt me all my life, and now, in escaping the misery, i can get something back."

The only thing more painful than feeling like you need to commit suicide, is failing. Failed suicides are NOT "cries for help." At least, not in my opinion. Failed suicides are a way of life telling you you're a failure, even at failing. Hell, not getting the guts up enough to do it is just one more kick in the ass as well. (gee, can we tell cheers had some probs when she was younger? ;) )

how so?

i don't understand..

because he would've had to live with his 'mistake' (of having unprotected sex at such a young age and her actually going thru the pregnancy..just to die at the end of it..) all his life..

or because of the 'oh no, woe is he, young love, so perfect, that was lost'...

or, what?

i am sorry if i'm missing something here, but i just don't get it.

:confused:

because he caused the death of one he loved?

I don't believe that, no I don't believe that at all. So, like someone said above, "because an animal is probably feeling pain, we can put it down" but someone who is feeling pain doesn't morally have that choice?
I have to agree with Cheerios, it might have been done to get back at some of the people. I know I'm not totally right in the head, but I've said to myself, "If I kill myself now, they'll feel like shit because they are the one that caused me to do it." I haven't been like that for a year, but I do remember distinctly having those feelings.
I'm hesitant to say that this is justified. Like I said earlier, I have empathy to this situation. I can't say I understand it, but I can feel for this persons loss. Unless we personally have been thrown in this situation, I don't really think we have a right to comment on if it's justified or not. We can take from this others experience and hopefully use it to help us along...

edit: fixed my improper word usage

do you mean empathy?

cause i thought it was truly saddening (the story)....

although i agree with what else you have said. Fortunatly i haven't suffered any kind of torment, scuh that i'd consider ending my life, so i have no experience to comment on suicide, cause i have only seen it from one side.
But the least we can do is to try and be empathetic with everyone, and not just with suicide, but with everything that people do in life.

Ya, sorry, I got my words confused and my brain was running in a different direction

Not all pain. The pain I talked about, morphine couldn't touch. It's not that uncommon in some conditions that the heaviest available pain killers will do little or nothing to help ease the pain.

Perhaps my choice in words was a poor one. I understand that there is some pain that cannot be helped by pain killers. I, for one, get very little relief from morphine as well. And I also understand that there are some conditions that will cause physical pain until you die.

I was thinking more along the lines of there being ways to "deal" with pain. Not that it goes away, or even that it isn't still a distraction. But, I have known several people that were/are terminally ill and in a great deal of pain, but can manage the pain because they understand that there are still reasons to live and they can still make an impact on this world.

I think if people commit suicide because physical existence is uncomfortable, they would be doing a diservice to themselves on a supernatural/metaphysical level (because life still has experiences left for them) and definitely a disservice to those around them who care for them.

Whether or not you believe in an afterlife or religion in general, it is undeniable that your actions, and therefore your existence has some immeasureable effect on those around you. Whether they are loved ones, or people in a position to observe from a distance, i.e. other medical staff who may be inspired by your determination to continue to fight your condition, there are people in this world that you will impact and never even know it.

I don't see the need to parse it or rationalize it.
If a person isn't in charge of his or her own life, who is?
I'd say the valid reasons for suicide are personal, period.

Astronauts and Special Ops come to mind.

Other than when drastic measure need to be undertaken, I am opposed to suicide, seems like a waste of life and a quite permanent solution to a temporary problem.

quote:Originally posted by Sen
Pain is temporary and can be tolerated or dealt with on some level.


uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh.. no

when you're a 17 year old guy in so much pain after heavy doses of morphine or demerol that you cry tears from pain because you turn your fucking head wrong is NOT just a 'gee it'll be over tomorrow'

i understand that some people cannot grasp true physical pain. its ok. i hope you never have that pain. but never be so cocky or knowing that its just not possible or that bad.

walk the walk before talking the talk dude.

i don't see how people can comment on morals... i mean they are different for everyone so i would understand if people sat down and discussed "i think it would be ok if *I* did this... or that"... but talking about what other people should and shouldn't do is pretty pointless... ofcourse this is only true with things that are causing no harm to other people... i mean my choice is what i choose to do, and if i'm causing no harm it shouldn't bother you...

ofcourse there are many people who will argue that suicide is causing harm to the people who care about you... however then they are just being selfish because if you really want to die - then they should respect that wish and be happy for you... besides i think people are too emotionally attatched to things to begin with....

anyways i'm not suicidal at all... i love every day i live (almost)... but i don't see how one person should be able to sit down and say whats moral for someones desicion that doesn't concern them...

i dont think any one should feel, or does feel, HAPPY that someone would choose to commit suicide.

if someone accomplishes a goal that they want - as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, i'm happy

and i don't mean happy as in enthuisiastic like "hey lets throw a party..." i just mean content with the way things are...

I'd have to give it serious thought if I was diagnosed with Alzheimers. I'd hate to be a burden on my loved ones like that.

I say you can off yourself if you have become a legitimate burden to everyone around you and society in general, or if you are in the last stages of a terminal illness.

Short of that, you have an obligation to live, even if you don't want to. Your parents/guardians and society have a huge investment in you, and you owe them.

I have been suicidal before, and I know how easy it is to into that kind of funk for no good reason, and how easy it is to get out after you get your head screwed on straight. I have been more or less happy for many years now, and even when I feel down, I don't think about suicide anymore.

That, I think, is where the tragedy of suicide lays. I feel like many people who kill themselves do so prematurely when they woulod have turned the corner in a few days or weeks and realized the value of their lives.

I am not in any way claiming to understand whatever you went through, nor am I in any way trying to diminish your pain. However, it is equally cocky for you to assume that I don't understand tremendous physical pain.

I have a post over in the Sports section of this site in a thread about "your worst sports moment" in which I detail that I BROKE MY OWN ARM THROWING A FASTBALL IN A GAME. The humerous literally shattered because of the torque and amount of force that I put on my arm throwing a baseball. After 2 reconstructive surgeries, plates and screws, radial nerve damage and 2 years of physical therapy, I believe that I have a pretty firm grasp on pain. Furthermore, I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that Morphine doesn't do any good for me, either.

Pain doesn't have to go away "tomorrow," as you stated, to be temporary. I still don't think taking your own life is the answer.

I'd say that the reason for committing suicide is irrellevant. The prerequisite would be to be absolutely sure that there's nobody left behind that would miss you, or be affected by your death.

Suicide as revenge is about as low as anybody can go.

And seriously, if I ever would find it an option, I would go and rob a bank first. Suicide works in both prison, and a five-star hotel in the Riviera. So why not take the chance?
And once I'd get to the Riviera, I might not want to die anymore.

The problem with suicide is that to different people stress levels are different. thus makeing them think that their pain is to much for them to handle. I dont think that one person or even a group of people can determine what is right and or wrong. I know when I tried to kill myself I had severe depression and was in an abbusive relationship for 7 months. To me the thought of release was welcome until i woke up the next morning and the last thing on my mind was dieing.
I do believe in helping people that are termonily ill and are in large amounts of pain that is incureable.
But since my experience I feel that I have gotten another chance and although I am still prone to depression I have a greater purpose and I wish to help others.
Suicide only sounds good in storys and for the moment. in the end when you wake up you realize how precious life really is and how many people you are leaving behind that will blame themselves.

suicide is never justified. your life is a gift, cherish it, even when the going gets really, really tough.

It is my life life and what I choose to do with it is entirely up to me. Even if I choose to end it. That is my choice. Of course I am justified. Having said that, I believe people who commit suicide are not in their right mind. So the question is akin to saying are you justified in being sick.

This forum is horribly depressing. All you people need to go out and fly a kite or something cause life is too short to be worrying about death, suicide and pain.

if you do not like a thread then leave. there is nothing more or less to consider. if it's too sad for you, go away.

considered but realized there are none.

Re: what are valid reasons for suicide?
 

On a much smaller scale: If you're going to die anyways and you have two options: painful suffering way out(i.e. terminal disease, cancer, being surrounded by a horde of flesh eating zombies) or the quick, painless way out(suicide).

When you outright kill yourself because life just sucks, etc., I regard suicide as a selfish action because you're causing everyone else that knew you pain, all for the sake of escaping your own current problems.

Suicide is a victimless crime in the same way drug use is a victimless crime. Sure, family members in both cases may be caused emotional grief but in the end it is the subject's choice and only has to be justified to them(<--singular they. Did I use this right? I refuse to use him/her).

What we really have to do is look at what the effect of suicide is. It is a deprivation of the suicidie's ability to further affect(effect?) the world. The same would be acomplished by becoming a hermit. To me, there is no major differance between being a hermit your entire life and never having human contact and commiting suicide. The outcome is the same. Think, if a hermit trips and dies at the age of 35 is it any differant than if he dies at 85?

So is sociaty justified in demanding that the suicidie not commit suicide so that they can benefit from their prolonged life? I don't think so. Therefore, any reason that is valid to the one commiting suicide is valid enough. In the end, only the one making the decision has any say.

Even though that wasn't the topic of the thread, that's a fair comment, and reasonable in the context. I think Raisin31's answer to the question of justifiable suicide would be sort of a "no" :D

As far as my own opinion ....

This is a profoundly personal and subjective issue. For me, there is no justification for suicide. That's for me, not for the person suffering from cancer who only wants to end their pain, or the victim of years of abuse who wants some way to escape the fear, hatred, and self-loating. I have looked this issue pretty much head-on, since I tried to kill myself about a year and a half ago. I did it basically because I was very depressed and angry about where my life was, and unable to think my way through to see any solutions. The split second I saw blood, though, my immediate thought was "What the fuck did I do that for?" Thankfully, 911 was called, doctors patched me up, some time was spent in a mental ward, and I'm not much worse for the wear.

The best thing about that whole mess was the simple fact that I know I want to postpone my death for as long as possible. It's a good tidbit to know when you are having troubles and feeling otherwise :D

I always keep a single bullet left for suicide in case of flesh eating zombies...

none..... it is the way out for the weak... sorry to be harsh just my own opinion..... basically what we all ask for when we post

I take it that you're a fan of george romero's movies too? :D

i.m.o. suicide could never be justified simply for the fact that there should never be a reason to take your own life....i look at life as an enternal video game....no matter what happens , how many times ur hurt getting to the end is the ultimate victory...shutting it off in the middle is just pussy style , deal with what you have to deal with and fight life till it kills you rather then you make the job easy for it! :)

none, no discussion necessary

k, so have any of the people been close enough that they have almost taken their own life? Will the answer still be the same, or will they still maintain that "it's the pussy thing to do." That's a disrespecting answer for a serious question. I think if you want to say that it's not the way to go, say that way is, to me, not the way to go because of whatever reason. I don't think you have any right to say someones suicidal actions are "pussy." I think it actually would take more guts to end their own life then for others to criticize their actions.

being a samurai
 

I think that back in the day, a culturaly just reason for sucide was being a disgraced smurail

gotta have:

fucked up brain,

fucked up body,

no money,
no genitalia,
no chance at life.


or just be really sad. it doesnt matter. suicide doesnt have to be "justified." its pretty much takes care of itself, dont ya think?

I would say that suicide as a permanent solution to life’s temporary problems is an armature act. As there is no deep thought to the act. Its just a instinctive response to pain that we feel. Its really quite an abomination, instinct killing the mind.

On the other hand, suicide as a conscious decision to end ones life just to find out what’s on the other side is a totally reasonable action in my opinion.

For life has no meaning. The only reason for any of us to keep going is to see what happens next. Like an interactive movie or a game. Our minds get a chance to see this world and enjoy it for all its good and bad, love and hate, and all the other experiences we go though. Suicide is simply us walking out of the theater in the middle of the movie.

But, it is a gamble. For one thing we cant be sure of what happens when we go over the stars. It could be less entertaining for all we know. Or worse, there could be nothing and this life could be the only time that we get to exist. But as life has no significance in the first place, this doesn’t matter. Life, if viewed from the appropriate perspective is as hollow as nothingness.

The ultimate dilemma lies in the matter of the soul. A wise man once said that one has to earn one’s soul. This just may have some truth. If so, suicide can be a ticket out of existence. Which is of course a rather unpleasant circumstance. It is this uncertainty that prevents many of us from committing the ultimate taboo.

The reason I wont do it is because if find life much to interesting and entertaining. I got a free ticket so I might as well enjoy the show. There is no going back once you are though the door and in the end we all walk though it. I prefer to stick around till the credits roll by.

This is a very very subjective matter. Some people will staunchly say that there is absoltutely no validity for suicide. Others will say there is.

IMO its a matter of upbringing, traditions, culture, and what not.

For instance, in Japan, the code of bushido, the warrior code (i guess one could compare it to chivalry for knights though not really) - if one lost his honor and shamed his family the only way to reclaim it was to perform seppuku (sp?) - ritual suicide.

In Japan it was long accepted to kill ones self rather than disgrace the family. And the last war the Japanese were in, WW2, it was a very common thing - banzai charges and holding out to the last man. It was so foreign to our soldiers that they seemed wacko - yet in Japan it was the way for as long as they could remember.

So culture and tradition takes a big part of it.

For me, personally, there is no valid reason. I will always fight even if there is little chance. but there is still chance and i'll do it. I won't give in even if i know i have to die.

Recently a senior at a school nearby where I live killed himself in front of everyone at lunch because his former-gf or something wouldn't go to prom with him.

So great, you had problems with your family and was on the verge of moving out. But I betcha your parents cared and guess what, now they are crying and suffering in sorrow for the rest of their lives because you did an act to get attention or because you ewre rejected and felt you were too good not to be.

What will your little brother say when his friends go to your house years later and look at pictures.

"Who's that?"

"My brother."

"What happened to him?"

What will he say then because you chose your way.

I agree with Zeld2.0...I have a picture of my sister in her mid 20's on the wall...I almost never say what happened...her note was rather meaningless...she had made a conscious effort to justify an estrangement from each in the family...I think the problem is one of vanity...afraid to be just ordinary...I'm sure some drugs and a bad marriage didn't help...but like Nietzsche says, sometimes you just have to change yourself (a very Christian idea) and that can be humbling. Suicide is often defiant...an I will not change statement...a trivialized vanity...if you believe in something, you live for it and if it just might not be as worthwhile as you thought...you change yourself.

Any reason is valid.

These are just my opinions: Some of us let our emotions control our lives. Self pity (just one avenue for suicide) and emotional pain can be just as real as physical pain. My former mother in law tried repeatedly to kill herself. She finally did it. I have thought about it. I had a really good cure happened to me: My oldest brother got leukemia. We all test for stem cell transplant. My sister was the closest match. To make a long story short, he has the worst case of graph verses host disease the doctors at MSU have ever seen. Her cells are trying to kill his and take over his body. He shames me with his attitude on life. I have never heard him complain. For three years he has been in the most unbearable pain and agony. He always is polite and courteous.

I was blessed to have to bring him to the hospital for chemo and stay and care for him for a week. I was shamed. I was shamed watching the children in the cancer ward. I was shamed watching those innocent souls fight for their lives and still bless me with a smile. I believe the strongest force in living is self preservation.

I still think of my useless life and at times want to end it because living gets so hard. I am old enough and wise enough to swallow my pride and seek help. I do this every couple of years. If you ever really want to kill yourself, please just take an hour of your life and visit the children in a cancer center of any hospital. Those saints will shame you for your thoughts just by a healing glance. Thank you for listening.

The people that are being completely closed minded..

I'd like to see you have to watch your grandfather in a bed barely able to speak trembling of fear and then dying right in front of your face. All after 3 months of suffering in the hospital bed.

I can promise you, you wouldnt be so closed minded.

I like to think of this issue in terms of science. Say everyone with disease X was suddenly killed off because they were suffering too much. What then? What about the research that was going in involving X disease? What if it suddenly resurfaces one day? What then? Just let it spread and do its damage again? Sure, you may know someone who suffered every single day until they died, and you may have been there 24/7 to see them suffer should not be sufficient to make you think that suicide is okay. Also, recall what Mr. Lincoln said!!!

"The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to
deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just." -
Abraham Lincoln

See!! Gotta keep fighting, god damn it! Don't kill yourself, or you will just send out a message of cowardism. Fight to the bitter end and people will remember you for how fucking tough you were! What isn't respectable about that?

That's something you can live by, and all the more power to you, myself, if I were in a different situation and my life was worse, I don't think I'd follow that. Cowardism is a personal opinion I think. For some people, someone who commits suicide might be more brave then someone who fights through it all.

I understand the opinion, and to a point I agree with you, but as you can see on this thread, there are probably more people who will take the route of suffering for a few years than the quick way out.

Thats where your scientists can study.

I believe the option should be there.

Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis.

My friends stepdad had that. If I was diagnosed with it I'd live my life to the fullest for a few months and then suicide.

Edit: linky- http://my.webmd.com/content/healthwise/96/23784

If a person feels whatever enough to want to kill themselves... then it shouldn't be anyone else's concern... it shouldn't have to be debated or against the law... I have had many friends in which I am glad have not succeeded suicide but on the other hand have had friends that did succeed. I feel bad/sad/?? for myself when that happens but I do not feel bad for them. I am happy because they finally got what they had been wanting for so very long. I think suicide is not necessarily the smartest choice for those who only are upset about something small.. or when they are young and inexpierenced.. but who is to say what is small and who is "young"?

Well, I wouldn't commit suicide. If someone else wanted to, they probably would. Any reason is reason enough if the person thinks it is. We all live in different worlds, see different things, think different thoughts. What you see as wrong, someone else may see as right.

Suicide could be considered selfish because the people that care about you will be grief-stricken. But it seems to me that it's still a personal decision. If life is so painful for you that you can't see continuing on, and you see nothing better in your future, then why would you continue?

Sorry, I struggle with it almost daily because in my personal life I just don't see the "beauty" of it that everyone talks about. However, because of certain obligations I have in my life and because of people that are right now depending on me, I can't do anything about it. But if I DID decide to take action, I don't see that being anyone's decision but my own.

I can understand the "15 year old brother of a friend" example. I have a wife and two kids. If they were... I refuse to even type out such a thing. Suffice to say that I would make the deepest and most heartfelt apology to my family and friends and then I would take the "permanent solution".

Much like a person with a terminal disease, incredible pain, etc, such a circumstance would utterly and permanently remove my need for further existence. As such, I can easily see why that unfortunate young man made the choice he did.

In the end, it is the choice of the individual. I can certainly understand society's abhorrence of the deed, but suicide is the ultimate act of self-determination. If we, as a society, truly respect personal property rights, we should also respect the decision to suicide. Telling a 93 year old man dying of cancer that he is not allowed to end his own suffering is, to me, ludicrous.

It's your life.

Thank you very much for stating this, I am however very disappointed with the number of responses I had to read before I came to the statement you made.

Anyone who calls suicide selfish is a hypocrite in my eyes. Everyone dies, and to say that someone shouldnt die when they want to, how they want to, because YOU might not like it is crap.

Where there is life there is hope.

In death there is only...?

But as in everything, perception is reality. And some can't see past the pain.

any reason can be justified, as long as there's noone to miss you

if someone is on life support, and the bag runs out (i dunno how it works); it doesn't need to be to refilled if there is NEVER a chance of recovery.

i think that 10 times out of 10, if you stick with the person and get them to stick with themselves, they will be happy they did

you only get one chance at this life

.. eee - just to see how it looks on the other side ?

Life is bearable and somewhat painless to most people. But as only one in a million is superhappy, so is one in a million a sufferer. Physical pain, real or imagined; sadness, depression, hating the everyday actively...

The average human being has a set of automatic protection methods. Fantasy helps survive boredom, an otherwise lethal form of frustration.. Stress can be controlled by escaping into fantasy or directing one's concentration into art or entertainment. Also denying the truth: "Not true not true not true not MY daddy.." and even blocking tragical events out of one's memory is not just possible, but in constant use among the lucky average.

And - anyway, it is the chemical balance in our brain that determines how happy we FEEL or how devastated, and not the events that really happen to us. Events, tragic or fantastic, cause different reactions in different people's heads.

DO I HAVE A POINT AT ALL ? Yep. There are people whose brain protection mechanisms are not shielding them efficiently enough against reality. And there are people who suffer, however fantastic a life with baths in pink shampagne.

I understand with compassion if a sufferer decides not to wait untill they get out naturally. But sadly, giving up transfers a life-long depression into the family members. People who are not counting seconds and breaths day and nite, hoping all would end, can never understand. Just like I can not understand anyone who doesn't RUN every time they see a hotdog stand.

Are there instances where it is justifyable to take one's own life??

I think so yes.

example 1. Someone is trying to get information out of you that would led to the deaths of millions (or maybe just 1 loved one). Is killing yourself to prevent this ever occuring justified? I think maybe so.

example 2. Is the lots of pain going to die anyway senario thats already been covered. I believe the person has the right to choose whether their quality of life if suffient enough to carry on with.

That seems to be oversimplifying things, no?

Suicide is definitely a personal thing. I believe there are justifiable situations. I am a firm believer that, yes, most things in life are temporary, no matter how painful, sad, unpleasant... all things must pass. But for some unfortunate people, there is a point when they have to ask, "how much is enough?"

I tried to kill myself when I was 14; I was just unhappy with my life. Nothing ever made me happy, and my life seemed to be an endless cycle of disappointments, regrets, and sorrow. Obviously, I was unsuccessful.

Four years later, my life is still an endless cycle of disappointments, regrets, and sorrow. But I still hold on to hope. I still have so many years ahead of me for things to get better. I do find myself thinking about it on occasion, though. Life just seems too overwhelming sometimes, and it seems like nothing will ever be good enough to compensate for the misery I've endured. I'm completely disillusioned with life, and I don't see much of a reason to go on, but I do. Because of hope.

I guess I'm trying to say that, in the absence of hope-- when you really feel like things cannot get better-- suicide is justifiable. I don't have any religious oppositions to it, so I believe it is a personal decision.

Itchy93

1. if you cannot contribute to society equal to that of a perfectly healty human being.
2. if you want to
3. if you like sleeping but hate waking up

I don't understand how suicide can be construed as a moral issue in a non-theocratic society. Can anyone elaborate why it is a moral issue to them?

Necessity. Desire. Your life is your own, whatever reason you determine to be valid is valid to you.

Religion is a prerequisite to establishing a moral code? I do not need a prophet to tell me how to live. Whether it be straight from the divine source or from an incorrect interpretation.

Wow, I don't think you understood my post, which was a response to the string of posts before mine.

In a question such as this, personal faith plays the determining factor, I'd imagine.

Do you believe in a higher power?

If so, you would most certainly believe that there's a purpose for your existence. If said purpose does exist, then you must understand that there is a reason for your pain, a reason for your travesty. A reason why someone took the time to create your existence and everything that encompasses it.

With that in mind, it comes down to the individual's decision of whether or not they choose to ride out this viscious train ride of life. Despite the influences of our environment, I believe you are the only one capable of defeating your purpose.

And, to me, that is what suicide is. The justification for such action would represent a defeat of purpose, but more importantly, of faith. Something that becomes harder to hold onto as the obstacles placed before you weigh down at great lengths.

Maybe that's the challenge of the game.

If it is not determined that you are already going to die, in a resonably short amount of time, (differant by case...but lets say 5 yrs.) and that you are currenly in uncurale pain, and thats its only gunna get worse...then ok, you can "commit suicide".

Or perhaps at that point euthanasia is the right term.

Anything shy of that? No, suicide it wrong. Personaly I dont care if you someone does or not, but any respect I ever could have had for that person vanishes, if said conditions are not met.

Excluding a debilitating illness which not only degrades the mind but the body as well, I find no exceptable excuse for suicide. No practical one anyway.

That's right: in a non-theistic world, we don't have a purpose. Suicide is therefore the ending of a purposeless existence.

Is it mean to people to whom you mean something? You bet. Is it wrong? Well, no. Then again, I think morality is relative anyway. People who disagree with me on that point are quite unlikely to buy my argument. Otherwise, I'm not sure how you couldn't.

I enjoy my life. When I stop enjoying it, I hang on to it in the hope that it'll become enjoyable again. If I know that it'll never be enjoyable again, why bother with living? To Finish What God Put Me Here For? Not if there's no God. Because It Is Wrong? Well, who says? Because It Will Make My Family And Friends Very Sad? Yeah, it will, assuming I have any, but I can allow myself a bit of selfishness when it comes to life-or-death situations.

Arent we projecting our values onto someone else? The only person who they need to justify suicide to is themselves. It is their life. It is their choice what they do with it.Im sure it many would consider it immoral to go up to someone and say "Your going to work in a factory for the rest of your life". Everyone would say to fuck off and that they will make of their life what they want. Why is it any different with suicide. They are the ones who have to live with the suffereing. And thats what it is "Suffering". They have to cope with it every minute of every day, You can walk away from them when they give you the shits. They have no such option. They cant escape their self loathing.No one commits suicide as a get out of gaol free card. Suicide is seen as the only escape from the unrelenting suffereing. We also need to clarrify that feeling a little down today doesnt constitute depression. It is like walking into work with a headache and saying you have cancer. Depression is a disease. A disease which doesnt go away. Medication can help some people but often that medication is sketchy at best. This myth that people commit suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem shows that you dont understand. People who succeed at comitting suicide usually attempt it numerous times over an extended period of time. There are warning signs which are unconcious calls of help from the person. Previous unsuccessfull attempts are such a sign. they are trying to give the world every possible chance to let them know that there is a place for them in it. When they finally do succeed it has been a long thought out and well practiced act. There is nothing temporary about the problem. No release from the suffering can be seen and they have given ample opportunity for that release to manifest. Thus why should they have to justify their actions to anyone but themselves?