Faith: Do you have it?
 

Although faith generally refers to a theological belief system, I wonder if it is something else. Yes, I get that religion relies on faith to shepherd believers. But people are always telling others to "have a little faith" when it comes to waiting for actions of others, and not every one of these users of the word affiliate with any particular god or religion.

If, by that meager analysis, one can assume that faith is merely trust, must you have that if you don't have a god? Is there something that controls your fate that you should blindly believe? Does everyone have to have something to believe in to survive? If you have belief in yourself, can you consider that as having faith? If you trust no one, do you not have faith? Isn't faith a belief in something/someone with no proof? Is faith immoral?

For me, Faith is one of those words I have difficulty separating from reliogiosity (not a word, right?) even when it comes to humanity itself. There are people that I feel have earned my trust, but there is not one person who has my blind faith (redundant phrase, ya?) . It's all been earned but is easily lost.

So when I'm hoping for a particular outcome to a life situation and someone tells me to "have faith", I can only base the actual outcome on my efforts, the situation and any parties or objects related to that outcome. In that case, I would have faith in myself.

But if it's a situation over which I had no control but had hopes for an outcome for a particular person, it would seem that would mean I'd have to trust that specific person to have earned that outcome. Or maybe fate = luck?

Your thoughts and opinions?

I don't believe in the supernatural. Things like fate and luck have no place in my world view.

I too agree that to have faith in someone is just a matter of giving that person your trust. You believe that they will do something either based on previous actions or because you trust them to do it. As such, I cannot have faith for something in which I don't believe exists.

I don't think faith is necessarily associated with religion. I have faith that the sun will come up in the morning because I believe what I think I know & hope to be true about our physical surroundings. My faith in others is circumstantial & transitory. I think faith healing has something to be said for it, although faith applied to gods & such I do not claim.

There is nothing faith-like about knowing the Sun will rise and set. There demonstrable proof that it has been happening daily for a very long time. There is no need of faith.

I don't know that I'd call myself faithful. I'd think it'd be more accurate to say that I'm relatively comfortable with the notion that I could easily be wrong about everything and choose to take the most straightforward course of action by acting as if it isn't actually important whether I'm wrong about everything.

With respect to luck, if you accept the idea that luck is just a catch-all term used to denote the results of any poorly understood (or analytically untenable) deterministic process, everything is determined at least partly by luck.

Charlatan, it's likely that I use the word too loosely for you to have faith in my use of it. I take it on faith that it's a loose enough word to accommodate much. All I meant to say was that faith can apply to things not supernatural without losing meaning. I daresay it gains a little.

doesn't everyone have faith even Atheists? I was thinking this very same question the other day walking down the streets of Chinatown.

Don't they have faith that the cars will stop at red lights and stop signs? That trains will stop at the platform and not just skip a stop? That when you press the elevator button it will actually stop on the floor number you pressed?

I think that there is lots of faith every day by everyone.

Cyn, there are two main distinctions in our use of the word faith. The one you are using refers to trustworthiness. The other meaning, with regard to religion and spirituality, refers to belief...usually a belief in something supernatural or what cannot otherwise be proven to exist.

Most of us have much faith in the first meaning of the word: societal rules and expectations, in addition to the expectation the sun will rise tomorrow as well, I guess.

But I think the question here is whether we have faith in phenomenon we cannot prove or explain. This goes beyond deism too, I think. I don't believe in deities, but I have faith in humanity and how we navigate the universe. I believe that a future is possible. That is faith in my eyes.

Faith can be understood multiple ways. In the broadest sense faith is simply holding a belief.

The word faith (Faith) is also used commonly in a religions context to mean specifically belief without consideration of evidence.

By one meaning, everyone has faith; by the latter, many do not. This is a line that must be tread carefully, lest one falsely equate the two (which is what many religious folks are doing deliberately when they point out that 'atheists have faith').

Cynthetiq walked the line well, yes atheists have faith that cars will stop at stop lights. They do not have Faith that the cars will stop at stop lights (well, some might since atheists are just as capable of having Faith). I've been to a few places in Mexico where it seems like the stop lights are regarded as little more than polite suggestions, people with Faith that cars will always stop at the lights wouldn't last very long in that environment.

I think when a person tells you to 'have faith' usually they mean 'have Faith'. To me, having 'Faith' that a situation will work out the way I want it to is very unhelpful. It means the desired outcome is unavoidable, which while possibly emotionally satisfying, is not a very good way to get what you want. Success is almost never unavoidable.

//edit: Despite the 20+ minutes between them, cross-post (yes I take a long time to compose my responses).

I just came across a relevant article regarding a crossover between both meanings of the word faith, and I immediately thought of this thread.

Metro - Romanian witches to face jail time for failed spells

Faith - trust - belief.

In my opinion 'belief' contains a bit stubborn outlook of matters, even disregarding the opposite ideas without examining them.

Faith has religious ring to it, not necessarily though, and I would compare it to optimism, wishful thinking that something good will come eventually.

When you trust a person, you likely have knowledge and experience of him conducting reliably. Unless you're a fool and trust everyone. Faith is a little less solid trust in someone, you like and whom you don't want to disappoint you.

"Having faith" - it's realizing you're not in the best situation right now, but things will change for the better. Those who have religious outlook, will include God having something to do with it. "Losing one's faith" - the sum of your hardship might be more than you can take at the moment to be willing to look to the future. "Having no faith" is pessimism.

In general, I believe we all aim to go towards a better future, so this gives faith validity. If it wasn't so, would we still be here?

I have problems to connect faith with witchcraft.

i think the distinction between perceptual faith and belief in some god is pretty straightforward. i believe that in the next instant my computer will not fly into atoms. i don't **know** that it won't, but experience has shown that it's reasonable to expect that will be the case. that's a kind of perceptual faith.

the shift to beyond that would come with "i believe that in the next instant my computer will not fly into atoms because god wouldn't let that happen."

so excluding the second thing; perceptual faith transposes or is analogous (take yr pick) to lots of registers that involve pattern or expectation and projections into the future. at that level, it is a basic human function. from a cartesian viewpoint, a basic form of evasion, a way of not dealing with the kind of (hyperbolic) doubt that could pin you in place unable to be sure that the floor beneath you will persist moment to moment or finish this sentences because the computer could fly into ato

I'm not sure. This hones in on what I was thinking. What is that faith? I think saying faith = belief (when not talking about religion) is way oversimplified and maybe not true. I don't think that we have faith that cars will stop and the sun will rise; I these are merely expectations based on experience, science, logic, whatever. It doesn't mean we have faith in the car or the driver, or the sun. Maybe a better definition for faith would be expectation? If so, maybe the wrong phrase was coined or did it just evolve out of those with religious faith?

Or could the difference between faith relating to God and "having faith" in others be that with God, there are no expectations allowed, but as mortals we may have expectations of others and mother nature in a more logical, mathematical sense?

I have faith, though its shaky right now.

Is faith just a word that justifies you're belief in something? I am sure the terrorists that flew a plane or 2 into the world trade center had faith in their beliefs.

What if you have faith in something and it turns out not to be true? Is it still faith? Or just gullibility.

If your faith fails in the face of new information it was misplaced. I venture that a more flexible faith is less assailable. I'd even go so far as to assert that surety is brittle.

I don't have faith in the religious sense, but my wife does.

Sometimes I'm jealous of this fact.

I have no faith, no beliefs. This is a choice.

It appears that belief systems are what is wrong with human beings.

Without faith, one simply employs working hypotheses. It's not rocket science.

Faith is one of many words that mean different things to different people. Another example is the word "socialism." Such words often lead to confusion.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia and Google)
Professor Emeritus
Montclair State University
.
.

Other examples: buffalo, teabag, cart, democracy

Doc, if you're going to answer, then answer. Otherwise you just look like you're here to shill your work, which is unattractive.

I have faith that Tilted Philosophy isn't doomed.

Faith went out the window with religion. It pretty much separated the family. Ahh the Irish are funny people when it comes to their faith and religion." North or South" The family is from both.

Always keep the faith in the good beer!

I have faith in OCM, thats about it.

TFP killed God so therefore my religious faith (actually I should say spiritual since I have no faith in religion) is dwindling if not gone completely.

...got that.

Alright, somewhat more,
call it rape if you need to,
not mutilation:

"Funny place to put our faith,
in mystic musings of others past,
when right now you can google."

(Please read through
the haiku, if in the way,
where it's not useful)

Of course I didnt mean that TFP literally killed God but many things I've read have put my (perceived) faith to the guestion.

I kinda hate that cause I found my spiritual faith rather comforting (if not delusional) at times.

The comfort we each take from our ideas about the nature of reality is delusional. I'd rather think that than to think I know such basic truths as the meaning of life.

I try my best not to.

I also work toward no beliefs or labels. I work off hypotheses too. But the faith I mean, is the faith in being Okay for the stuff I can't make hypotheses for (well ethically testable). I have faith in the unknown. The faith in no belief or labels.

I suppose you're correct, your entire reality is based on what your senses tell you. Those who are taught to accept logic & reasoning as their sole course towards reality must conclude thats all that exists. Since no evidence exists to state otherwise this must be so, or its simply a matter that we are unable to grasp certain concepts because we dont have the capacity to analyze or measure such things as faith (religious, spiritual or otherwise.)

While it is true that certain meditative and religious states can be seen & measured on an EEG, the essence of what these states are based on remains elusive.

No faith here, at least not in a personal god. The universe is too vast to believe that the creator of it all, is personally looking after you and the other 6 billion plus souls roaming the Earth. Though I have nothing against people who hold such believes. With that said I do think karma is something to hold faith in, it's simple and makes sense.

I thought I had faith when I was younger and heavy into church. Looking back on it now, I was really just going through the motions and using church as a social outlet.

Now, the only things I have faith in is karma. I don't know HOW it works, but I believe in it. Belief in something that you can't prove is faith.

So... I guess I have SOME faith.

Actually faith & karma or very dissimilar, in the original Indian concept of Buddhism, God or gods have no role in karma, they believe that all roles past, present & future are being actively shaped by karma during many different existences.

In the traditional Abrahamic religions, the will of God takes the role in all human actions, thereby faith is all too important,(lets hope God knows what the fuck he's doing), although in Hinduism humans do have free will to choose good or evil and suffer judgment which requires God to implement Karma's consequences.

Religion is too fucking complicated.

Meh not really. Karma is a poetic way to say cause and effect past your natural life. Faith is a way to say you have confidence in something that can't be proven (by you I should mention. As most people have faith in science since very few test it).

I think I have faith at least some of the time, in some things. I'm not really talking about religion now-- I think we all know where I stand with that.

But I have faith, at least sometimes, in the power of kindness: that any small act of kindness can result in far-reaching ramifications and repercussions that we may never know, or to a degree we might never believe.

I have faith, at least sometimes, in the capacity of people to fulfill their promise in ways none of us might ever expect.

But I also have faith in the almost infallible ability of the human race to shoot itself in the foot. I truly believe that the progress of humanity is all too often like that of a glacier: one step forward, two or three steps backward. Still, I also have faith that humanity does inevitably progress. Which I suppose is something.

I have faith, at least sometimes, in the ability of knowledge to empower a person, almost disproportionate to anything else.

I have faith, almost always, that power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I guess these are some things I have faith in. I dunno. Does that count?

faith doesn't really make sense to me unless you just generally mean hope.

i just do not get it and never have. i always thought myself weird because i never grasped it.
-shrug-

The only thing I really have faith in is me... myself.
No external objects or forces. I'd like to believe in karma, but it's just not consistent enough for me. I'm the only thing that I absolutely have to trust and believe in, in order to make it through the day. I have a wee bit of faith in a few other people, but only on very specific things.
But other than that, no.

What a great topic for discussion. Thank you, Jewels for thinking of asking.
I have faith in myself, humanity, Nature, and even a little in God.

It's funny, I've never thought of connecting luck with faith, but the way you phrased it makes me consider it as reality. Luck has never really been something that I've counted on, yet as I look back I realize that I have been very lucky in life. Definitely not something to discount.

I tend to have faith that things are exactly as they should be at any given moment, because they are that way. This does not automatically or otherwise mesh with my hopes and I dont expect it to.

What I mean is that, and to use that aforementioned word, I trust that how it is or happened is "right" or what should happen. It may sound crazy, but I also believe nothing is set in stone. So no matter what an outcome is and it could go any way, what happens is simply right, and I trust in that... even if it means its bad... like losing my job which has happened, a friend dying, being broke, losing something I need, etc. All have happened...

I dont believe in fate though. I believe that i have choice. Beyond the chaos of existing, everything that has happened to me has been of my own choice and doing and even though the chaos is outside of my control, i control my responses to it and how I deal with it.

Fancy, that; an unassailable Faith! I have faith that it benefits you and everyone around you. Spot on!

An interesting topic to be sure.

I know a lot of non religious possibly atheist men who are very successful business men. When one of them says "keep the faith" it is referring to believing in good outcomes even when things look tough, which are then in fact manifested because you had faith in a good outcome. It is faith in an outcome, possibly tied with faith in yourself and your abilities that allows you to make very tough things happen.

Loose that faith in a good outcome and you give up, which in turn manifests an assured failure.

That is the key to faith, believing in things going right allows the power of the mind to be unleashed. The person who believes he can overcome obstacles and opposition and does everything at his disposal to make it happen has a chance, especially when the original faith in a good outcome was based on viability.

I explored many religions, and what I saw as a common denominator was that any religious faith's success stories of turning someone's life around who was on skid row due to newfound faith are similar. The person who is at bottom turns loose of all negativity and grasps at something to believe in. The fact that their mind becomes open makes it open to the power of positive thoughts which then allows them to start making the positive changes that allow success to come into their life. The real power is all the individual who has become powerful in a positive direction due to something to believe in.

I came away from the exploration of religions with an unshakable faith in myself and my abilities. I have committed to things others said couldn't happen and made them work through sheer force of will.

The question has been put to me in a lot of ways, "Keith, what is it you believe in, everyone has to believe in something". My response is that I believe in myself, and that belief is as powerful as anyone's belief in a religious concept. The only real difference is that a belief in myself allows constant assessment of changing circumstances, religions make people walk a pretty set line that doesn't work in many instances (Like politics for one).

Faith is a very deep subject. Do you believe that?

As much as George Michael does.

If you do, you have faith? :orly:

Faith in the elevator stopping on your floor is assumed probability. Faith associated with religion is a collective construct to perpetuate and validate the time you spend worshiping something you have no tangible evidence even exists.

How can you have faith in a world that is constantly in flux? The elevator usually stops on 3, but one day that will cease, too.

So, I guess I have faith in the ephemeral nature of everything.

No determination either way as to the scope of what the impact positive or negative is of the ephemeral nature of everything? Do you trust in the outcome either way I guess is my question? or believe it to be a certain way or have any certain meaning?

I'm only responding in part about faith in humanity and the self, as the rest of the questions don't apply to me.


When I drive over a bridge, I have faith that the builders, designers, manufacturers, likely did a good job and the bridge will then likely not collapse under me.

This is not because of a faith in their desire to do a good job, provide a safe service, or other such things, but a faith in that people act in their best interests.

If the bridge collapsed, their company would collapse, their finances would collapse, their reputation, their current life style, would be destroyed.

They build a safe bridge to protect themselves and make a profit.

They take shortcuts, make mistakes, when they feel that the potential for disaster outweighed by the potential for financial- or time-gain. It is my hope that they accurately gauge this.

I do not rely on other people to act outside of their character.

I have faith in their established behavior patterns. That some people will be reliable, that others will not, that some you can tell secrets to and others you must tell nothing. That each of these traits is something that is established by their own subconscious measure of profit/loss or pleasure/pain.

Some people do charitable things because it makes them feel good. Some people do not do charitable things because they derive more pleasure from spending time on their own interests than those of others.

I have faith in this.

And I have faith in myself to access these internal motivators in the people that surround me, and I have faith that if I gauge wrong, I will recover from whatever situation occurs.

The rest is meaningless.

Why would anyone believe in something they cannot prove? Since faith is a belief that is not based in proof, wishful thinking, is all it can be.
Faith is a mental projection toward a positive outcome. Assuming the elevator will stop at the floor you have designated does not come down to faith, but probability. I have no faith in machines. They break and get old, I don’t have faith that it won’t happen on my watch, but I will assume that it won’t, based on probability. In the 1000 times that I have ridden the lift to my 3rd floor office, this machine has, thus far, been reliable. Based on past experience, which is not proof but probability, it will stop on the floor I programmed it to. Mathematical statistics suggest to me that it probably won’t break down, but the fact that it has the potential to eliminates any undying faith I might have mustered up for my own security purposes.

i think this discussion leads to even greater question

If faith can lead to false beliefs, what value can there be in having faith?
presuming there a God, is it reasonable to believe we could be punished for not having it?

Richard Dawkins says 'Faith is one of the worlds greatest evils.'
(*nudge* .... interesting he uses the word evil? )

I know that A Lion, A Witch and a Wardrobe was written heavily based on the religious idea of faith!

What's wrong with wishful thinking?

I think it's in our nature to do this. Whether it takes the form of spiritual pursuits or in using well-established technology is another matter. For the record, I don't consider faith in an elevator to operate properly to be particularly fascinating. However, I think it helps illustrate what happens in faith from a wider perspective; namely, the observation of phenomenon and the understanding of its cause and effect.

Many of us cause each other (and even ourselves) pain because of our failure to observe these things. It doesn't matter whether your religious or not. It still takes place.

People believe in things they cannot prove all of the time. It isn't that big of a deal. It's something that's actually required to function in the modern world. All this "probability" talk is just a fancy way of saying that you have faith without actually saying it. Without a formal probabilistic model in mind, you're just co-opting the language of probability and projecting it over a framework of faith in order to obscure the presence of that faith.

Here's where I see faith in your statement: I think you have faith in your ability to generate accurate predictions via extrapolation. You have faith that a series of abstractions based on arbitrary axioms can accurately predict reality.

Statisticians take matters on faith all of the time. All statistical models have assumptions. Frequently, these assumptions can not be verified with certainty and so must be taken on faith (and diagnostic tests).


I don't think the problem with faith is that it can lead to false beliefs. All ways of making sense of the world can lead to false beliefs. The problem with faith is that it can't always be easily modified via rational argument - it isn't very adaptable. There are some places where this is good. I have faith that my children love me. So that when they yell "I hate you!" because I won't let them do some thing that they really want to do, I don't actually think that they hate me.

Reading through this thread again helped me to realize a couple of things so far.

1. My use of the word "luck" was not meant in a supernatural or magical leprechaun way. What I meant to convey was more of a blind luck idea, more in line with ratios and probabilities. I'm no mathmetician, but somehow it's a given that if I walk out the door, odds are high that the sun will be out at 7:00 a.m.

2. What Filth said about false beliefs was right on. If we didn't believe in SOMEthing, why would we go on? Would you still go to classes if you knew you wouldn't pass, or earn a degree? Would you go to work if you didn't have faith that you would earn a paycheck?

I think it was mentioned as a possibility in the OP. Noodle is the only one who stated it with certainty but now I have to agree. I go to work because I have faith that I will bring a paycheck home. Although my employer issues the check, I know it would be up to me to find another means to a paycheck if my employer went under, so it always falls back to me. I have faith my children will love me because I raised them with love. It seems its all up to me.

Whaddya think? Rationalization or truth?

I have faith in people and it always scares the shit out of me though when I think too clearly about it.

It seems easier to just not use the word faith to be honest. The word trust should be sufficient I would think.

What my faith teaches?
Not much when it's unexpressed,
so I press forward.