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"They" don't hate us... they believe almost the same thing:
Above is a video explaining in reasonable detail how Jesus Christ is interpreted in the Qur'an and how he is perceived by Muslims. I've posted it in philosophy because I don't want this to turn into something about Iran vs. US or getting our of Iraq or Israel vs. Palestine; no, this is simply about bridging a phantom gap between Christianity and Islam. This is a gap much smaller than I think people realize. Please enjoy, and I hope you'll discuss what you think about the video and it's philosophical implications. |
For those who like to read
Birth:
And she (Mary) who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the nations. —Qur'an, 21:91 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs —Qur'an, 23:50 When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead. Death:—Sahih Bukhari, 4:54:506 O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court... —Qur'an, 3:55 And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him... —Qur'an, 3:144 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. Second Coming:—Qur'an, 4:157 And when Allah said: O Jesus, I am going to terminate the period (or give you death or take you back) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. —Qur'an, 3:55
—Qur'an, 5:116 And peace on me (Jesus) on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. —Qur'an, 19:33 |
[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them... Excerpt K 8:012 Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. Excerpt K 9:029 Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. Excerpt K 9:073 Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them... Excerpt K 47:035 Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works... And on, and on, and on...... Its nicely old testament. But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore. |
Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an.
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And by the by, I could post endlessly about the atrocities committed by the American people. But what would be the point? I would think no less of you and it would be irrelevant here. Please try to keep focus. You don't see me posting a bunch of paintings based on the Qur'an. I'd really like to because their beautiful, but you see, they're irrelevant here. |
EDIT: You know what? It's just not worth it.
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Please stop thinking you are the authority in everything Islam. This has been a fight for 1500 years for a reason, and it doesn't' take a genius to figure out that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't all be right, and as such 'they' hate us as we have. |
i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to.
i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit. but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is. |
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Edit: and Ill state when the usual liberal posse is mad at me, I must be onto something. |
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The Bible has just as much violence as the Qu'ran, as much as you'd like to link the book to the behavior. Quote:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html I suppose it fits less nicely into the conservative world-view when you have to accept that the Bible encourages as much violence as Islam does. |
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This whole thread is a misattributation.
"They" don't hate Christians so much as they hate imperialists. The essential topic is interesting though. |
how about this, then:
it is self-evident that there are a huge number of belligerent statements about others all the way through the biblical old testament. it would be a doable but tedious exercise to make lists of them, take them out of context and paste them up here. it is, as they say, a no-brainer. but doing that says nothing---and i mean NOTHING--about modalities of actual belief or practice. even without going into any specifics, this should be obvious: you are talking both in the case of christianity and islam about belief systems that incorporate HUGE populations--HUGE ranges of belief--and on that basis alone ANY sequence of sentence ripped from EITHER the bible or the koran is not going to provide you with a basis for saying anything--except that the adopting of attitudes articulated through these sentence is a POSSIBILITY. but that means nothing--not really: it doesn't explain how or why these possibilities might be taken up by particular individuals or organizations and not others--it doesn't say anything about context, whether anti-imperialist politics might get routed through these types of statements for tactical purposes for example. so these lists say NOTHING about how or why these possibilities might or might not be operationalised--so they say NOTHING about outcomes. and these lists do not even get CLOSE to enabling you to talk about the range of beliefs within communities--what they do is to enable a superficial kind of politics of gesture. that's it. this is obvious--self-evident--if you think about what you're doing at all. sadly, this cuts in all directions: it is a problem for the thread as well. so these lists, then, are therapeutic exercises that are entirely about the viewpoint of the person who assembles them---and in alot of cases about the weakness of the thinking behind that assemblage--so the lists, when you evaluate them, rebound onto questions of intent behind their assemblage. and this is where the trouble lay, and this is why i say--and stand by--the claim that no. 3 is bottom-of-the-barrel tripe (like that better?) and it is not obvious that islam entails the same kind of belief that christianity does, and so you are wrong even in assuming that it does. it is really simple to find this out. all you need is a little curiousity about modes of being that are not yours. and i stand by the claim that the fact you feel authorized to post about something you neither know nor particularly seem to care about knowing is an embarrassment. but post away---it's your prerogative: i'm the last person to get in the way of that. |
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People getting pissed at you has nothing to do with your politics, U2. It doesn't have anything to do with being "onto something". It's your malicious way of posting. You see something you don't like, you don't understand, or that frightens you and you put up your wall and bring out your guns. You kick and scream and threadjack until you're either sent to the corner or the thread gets closed. That kind of behavior damages our community. While I'm sure you're aware of this on some level, I feel I need to make it crystal clear. |
For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.
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Powerclown, that's a terrible threadjack.
But since you did it, I'm allowed to reply. A terribly made (albeit true) Youtube - Why do atheists care about religion? |
That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America.
Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal. |
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Not only that, but I wasn't born a "vegetarian", and had more time exploring different meats than most people before I settled on vegetarianism. I was born eating pork (Christianity), but then studied beef (Judaism), lamb (Islam), chicken (Hinduism), fish (Taoism), etc. So you see I may even be uniquely qualified to compare, considering many people have not dabbled. What has struck me is that people seem to think that Christianity and Islam are at odds so very much. From my perspective, they're simply variations on the theme of Abrahamism, but even from the perspective of a Christian, if you line them up side by side, the similarities are staggering. This thread is about studying the similarities from a theological or philosophical standpoint, so as to educate and explore. Can we get this back on track now, please? |
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:lol: :orly: |
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There's a damned good reason to be concerned about religion as an atheist. |
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/pseudo-threadjack |
As I recall, you started a thread regarding socialism while you yourself are not a socialist.
If you don't like a thread, hit the back button. I'm not interested in any more threadjacks. Please stock to the subject at hand. |
the interconnections between islam and christianity and judaism are obvious if you read the qu'ran at all. in alot of ways, islam benefitted from its 600 years of hindsight relative to christianity and tried to "get it right" by correcting for what were perceived as excesses on the part of the latter.
all you have to do is look into this even a little and it's apparent. so the idea that xtianity and islam are radically Different is silly--but it's been a useful ideological claim for both sides--but especially for christianity, which, if you look at it's history, has a kind of xenophobia issue--to say the opposite in order to justify conflict. in this, nothing, sadly, is new. |
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To the people who consider such things important, the similarities are irrelevant. It's the differences that matter, no matter how small they seem to an outsider. Compare shi'a and sunni muslims for another example. |
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Well, a LOT of theologians are also atheists. You certainly CAN study something without subscribing to the dogma. With regard to the OT, I have always felt that the different religions are many sides of a multi-dimensional coin. A coin that doesn't really have a lot of value ... in my opinion. |
there's a way in which you can only think about religion in general if you can relativize them. hard to do that if you've got one you can't or won't relativize. only problem is that once you do this relativizing thing, the idea of religion starts moving around: it is itself a problem because it entails a particular type of relation and takes that as universal. that's an obstacle. so it's maybe best seen as a quandrant of ideology...
you dont have to believe to find that interesting. to say otherwise is like saying you have to be a bean to find beans interesting. |
The issue isn't that there are similarities in the texts... there are. The issue is that, as roach suggests, ideology has come into play.
Those who interpret the text do so according to their agendas. Agendas which are not necessarily connected to the original texts. This happens in all religions. |
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vanblah, you are correct. One can study religion without being personally religious. I don't think that is the point here, the point that was meant by this thread. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've yet to see it...would be happy to be surprised. Whether one perceives the "gap" between Islam and Christianity small or large - or whether there is an Islamic Jesus - is besides the point: the 2 sides have been warring for centuries. When one says, "they don't hate us", well, I would say take a look around: some of them do. Some of them hate us so much in fact, that they do some pretty obscene things to drive just that point home. And right or wrong, some of us hate them back. But I see what will is trying to do here, and I suppose it is admirable, although I know in the same breath he supports what Hamas and Hezbollah are trying to do to Israel. Will, why don't you send that video to Nasrallah of Hezbollah or Ahmadinejad in Iran, see what they make of it. |
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Isn't it: He who dies with the most posts wins?
Ok will, the soapbox is yours. Knock 'em dead. |
you brought it on yrself... as somewould say about some of my posts...
"get over it" |
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These omissions translate to literally: "don't start the fight, and if they stop fighting, then you stop fighting." Oh my god... how terrible!!! :rolleyes: I won't even bother with the rest. Quote:
Of course, many of the Christians of the US are satisfied with voting for a moron that will bomb and invade primarily Muslim countries and kill their citizens it doesn't matter anymore. Quote:
Also, I probably know more about Christianity than the average Christian. Why? So I can defend myself. "Ur, an atheist?! Debil worshiper?! *drools*" can sometimes be followed by serious posturing and occasionally the thread of physical harm. I have to be able to twist their own religion to my advantage in order to shut them up. Quote:
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Hey Will
I think your case would have been better served if you had stated your agenda, as laid out in your last post, in your OP. There is no quicker way to invite a threadjack or a troll than to post something without first giving a clear context. Quote:
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I was generalizing in a rant. And yes, it was a massive brush.
This thread is about education and exploration of information. At least it was supposed to be. |
Mostly topical:
I addressed a similar concern to this thread to a friend of mine after he sent out a mass-forward about Obama, how he was a Muslim, how we were at war with the "Muslim Nation," and how Mohammed was a warlord. I again sent the link for the SAB's "long list of violence" in the Bible, and he responded with: "The fact is that God is just and truthful. There is a huge difference between my God and Allah in that Allah originated as a pagan moon god. My god sent his son that died for all of us, even those who dont know him at all. Muslim people are those dudes that flew into the towers, remember. I'll write more later. One love, your pal" That scares me. A lot. |
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There is a difference between viewing X as the alpha, the omega, the creator of the universe, and the judge of all that can be and has been ... and viewing someone else's god as a mere prophet, secondary to the real prophet, whose teachings replace the old prophet's teachings and are final.
I don't see how these are "almost the same thing"? I mean, many Christians believe Pasta is tasty, while Pastafarians believe God is Pasta. Is that also "almost the same thing"? :) |
Belief in one god? Check.
Basis on Judaism? Check. Belief in Mary? Check. Belief in Jesus? Check. Belief in the immaculate conception of Jesus? Check. Belief in miracles of Jesus? Check. Belief that Jesus will return on Judgment Day? Check. BTW, in Christianity, Jesus is a demigod, only a part of a whole god. So it's disingenuous to call Jesus "someone else's god". Yakk, did you even watch the movie in the OP? |
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When I watched the first 5 minutes of it, it hasn't said anything of interest that would make me think "Muslim view of Jesus is almost the same as the Christian view", or even any hint that it would get anywhere close to that. Many Buddists consider Jesus to be a Budda. Many humanists consider Jesus to be an interesting possibly historical figure, whose philosophical positions are sometimes laudible. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet. Christians think Jesus is the creator of the universe. That happens to be the core of (most) Christian theology. Viewing "X is actually god" vs "X is someone who did many of the same things, but is a prophet" ... isn't almost the same thing. Is there a particular part of the movie that would change my mind? If so, thanks! |
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Belief in one god? Check. Basis on Judaism? Check. Belief in Mary? Check. Belief in Jesus? Check. Belief in the immaculate conception of Jesus? Check. Belief in miracles of Jesus? Check. Belief that Jesus will return on Judgment Day? Check. |
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Yea you forgot that one. A good apology to your purposeful oversight would be. Pair of tits? Check. Likes sex with men? Check. Wears makeup? Check. Hour glass figure? Check. Looks good in a dress? Check. Calling it a woman without checking for the testicles? Big mistake. Its not just 'a' difference to be added up as "see there are 100 things similar and only 9 things different!" Its THE difference, its everything, its the alpha and the omega difference. One is the messiah the other is just a man. Ignoring this difference is grossly disingenuous. |
Crazy guy in the desert? Check.
Millions of even crazier followers? Check. |
Ok, I will weigh in here.
There are many similarities, and most of the muslims I talk to here in Afghanistan are well aware of them. However, it is a mistake to think of Islam as a single, cohesive entity. It is far more varied and fractured than Christianity. I have read the transcripts from sermons at local mosques where the people are implored to wage Jihad against any non-believers (I.E. Christians). I have also heard exactly the opposite from Mullahs who were preaching only a short distance away. I have read the night letters that get posted on the doors of girls schools, teachers houses, health clinics, etc. and have yet to see one that supports mutual understanding. There are many similarities between christianity and islam, both things to be proud of, and things that should shame us. I don't want to threadjack here, but Will, I don't see how you have left any room for discussion. Your first post points out similarities, yet we can't discuss the many differences? It leaves room for only nods of agreement. There are key differences between the "big three" religions that are very crucial towards understanding why the world is the way it is. The similarities only go so far. |
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We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!Holy messenger? Check.–Qur'an, 2:87Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.–Qur'an, 2:253Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'–Qur'an, 5:110Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.–Qur'an, 16:102 Holy word? Check. Holy spirit? Check. God (Allah) is still one? Check. This thread isn't about Islam = Christianity. It's about seeing how one derives from the other some of the inherent beliefs. Let's not take this out of context. |
An interesting film. Thank you for sharing.
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Its exactly what I'm talking about a profit, and obvious one that Allah decided wasn't good enough since its his will people kept fighting. ;) If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. That Allah, hes a tricky one. Jesus lord Jesus not lord This is not difficult. |
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We're talking about similarities, not that they're the same thing. Jesus was a messenger of Allah. Allah reinforced him with the holy spirit. Though this doesn't make Jesus Lord God, it certainly makes him important. One would say the next best thing; others would say he is the same. And Allah allows free will? Interesting. Thanks for pointing it out for us. There is yet another parallel of Christianity and Islam. |
I read about the first 8 posts in this thread then just skipped to the bottom. So bearing in mind I kind of stopped reading after ustwo's horse shit this is what I have to say.
Have any of you ever met a muslim in real life? From what I have read everyone is just buying into the bull shit the media throws at us, you think every single person who reads the Qur'an hates Christians and bombs people? Every single Muslim I have ever met has been a very decent person who is respectful of other religions, and yes I have talked to them on their views of Christianity and Jesus and God. There are similarities. Back to everyone thinking they are terrorists. If I lived in Canada and all I saw on TV about USA was the red necks who hate black people and burn other countries flags. Or even that moron who says "God Hates Fags" and protests the military funerals, what do you think I would think of USA. Try thinking on your own and not labeling an entire nation and religion with a brush. It makes me fucking sick when people do that. |
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I've met some very nice, very educated, and very non-violent Muslims in my time. It was talking with some of them that has me convinced that this issue was far worse than I would have thought had I just used US sources. |
BlahBlah:
Where do you meet the muslims you talk about? Because I can tell you that most of the muslims in Europe or the United States are reasonable, moderate people who wouldn't be there otherwise. Of course, you have the same reasonable, moderate people elsewhere, but the prevalance of extremism and the views they hold elsewhere in the world is really astonishing. I have watched Arabic TV shows that air over Dubai, and Saudi state run TV depicting Jews as people who drink the blood of children for their religious rituals (they went so far as to act out the sacrifice). I talk to the poor people here in Afghanistan, away from the cities, who have never seen an american before, or even a christian. The beliefs they hold are truly astonishing. It is from this pool that the people who would do us harm come from, not from the moderate, educated, rational people that have been raised around western culture. I have an Interpreter who is afraid his wife's family is going to kill him...For being so audacious as to marry her when she asked him to. They were forcing her to marry a cousin whom she had never met nor wanted to marry. I know guys who have burned down girls schools, and killed teachers. Local people (not your typical extremists) will kill a village member if they think he has converted to christianity. Honor killings are accepted. If a daughter has sex outside of marriage her own family will kill her. If she is pregnant, they will kill the baby also. Girls can't ride bikes here, or drive cars, etc. To do so will earn them a beating or worse. If a woman walks around without a Burkha (in the rural areas) or with a non-relative male, they may both be killed. A wife usually never meets her husband before their wedding. Which leaves her with no options because if she divorces him (somethign allowed in Islam) she becomes a beggar on the street. However, her husband can take another wife if he doesn't like the first one, and his original wife has absolutely no say in the issue. Almost all the propaganda I have read (and which supposedly written in such a way as to resonate with the intended audience) focuses almost exclusively on religion and how evil christianity and Judiasm are, rather than us simply being an occupying force that needs to be expelled. I don't think I have read one that doesn't at least mention the inevitable victory of Islam over all other religions and global Sharia law. I can understand a desire to get along with everybody, and a valid desire for people to realize that most muslims are good people (they are), but don't think for a minute that what you see back at home in any way reflects the degree of extremism found in parts of the muslim world. It is not possible to have a church (at least one that isn't held in secret), or religous icons from other religions, historical artifacts with religious significance other than islam (the stone Buddhas, for instance), or anything that would indicate any degree of religious tolerance on behalf of Muslims in this country. Walk around Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu areas and old temples to other religions are allowed to stand, Mosques are built in plain sight, etc. There is only one religion right now that will not tolerate any of the others, and it is Islam. |
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Peace is used as a weapon. You ONLY make peace with infidels when you can't beat them out right, and as soon as you are stronger its wrong (sin, against allah) to NOT subjugate them. This sort of tactic is justified to them because its what Muhammad did to capture Mecca in the first place, at least thats what I was told they were taught, by one who grew up in Jordan. Of course you could tell THEM they are misinterpreting the Koran, and I'm sure they will listen to a young westerner about that. |
Who is THEM?
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Greg, I really liked reading your post. Thank you for describing it without all the stick waving that most people do when dealing with this topic. And you are right, every Muslim that I have met has been living in Canada for at least 6 months, so they most definitely are not the extremist type.
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