Ballzor

I don't have a link to the report, but they did a poll of average Americans and apparently half of them don't believe in Evolution. As hard as it is to believe, I think it could be true.

I'll keep looking for the article, but I'm positive those were the results

Anyone else hear about this?


Ah I finally found it , though now I kind of wish I had made it up
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17879317/site/newsweek/

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bluepolaski

Polls are always horribly inaccurate.

But no one in Vermont questions scientific logic, and there's also a bunch of people who want to secede from the union. I'm moving to Vermont.

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The_Jazz

People are stupid. The polls prove it.

I actually don't find this that difficult to believe. The results should be cross-tabulated with those who believe in UFO's, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster to see how many believe in all four and identify themselves as conservative Christians. All four are in direct conflict mainstream evangelacal Biblical teachings, by the way.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I don't believe half, but I read somewhere that half of us don't drink any alcohol at all. Maybe there's a correlation?

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cyrnel

Hey, my brother doesn't believe we made it to the moon. It takes all kinds.

It being what happened in Rome those last few centuries. Children of Men, here we come.

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LazyBoy

I'm just curious as to who is the "they" that conducted this survey....

-Will

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Willravel

The funny thing is, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster might be provable using Darwinian evolutionary theory. I'm sure if there are UFOs, the pilots would have developed through a long process of evolution.

The_Jazz

Exactly. Thank you sir.

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Lizra

That's the stupid half!

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Charlatan

I am not shocked by this. The amount of effort that has been made by certain factions to question the validity of evolution is shocking.

People talk about things like "that war on Christmas" but you can just as easily point to the "war on evolution" in the US (and I really do think this is primarily a phenomena in the US - though I am not sure what the thinking is in conservative Islamic circles).

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roachboy

yeah, you know i cant make anything of the op claim without a link to the study. without being able to look at the data, claims deriving from it mean nothing.

on the other hand, alot of american apparently believe that capitalism is rational, so there is obviously no real absurdity filter at work out there.
all this means is that i am predisposed to cynicism when it comes to statements about "americans" in general--but this only serves to emphasize the need for access to the poll and its data. stuff like the geographical distribution of the sample would be nice, dont you think? the methodology would be nice to see as well.

i wont go from there to posing questions of why it is that a claim like this presented without any information can without problems be posted in the philosophy forum. i dont have anything nice to say about that. so far as i am concerned, this has fuck all to do with philosophy and unless there is information about the poll posted, i'd rather see it moved to nonsense or vaporized altogether.

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telekinetic

I don't believe in evolution. I have a hard time believing anyone with a serious knowledge of science and biology can believe that the complex organisms that all life consists of are the result of chaos.

At the simplest leve, entropy applies EVERYWHERE else--why choose to not apply it here?

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Willravel

It's hard to call natural selection chaos. I see it as moving away from chaos, towards perfect adaptation. I do have to wonder how serious a knowledge of science and biology one has when one doesn't 'believe' in evolution. It would, in my mind, be like someone calling himself an astro-physicist that doesn't believe that stars are hot.

archetypal fool

I've never had a problem believing in evolution. Honestly, how hard is it to understand? The better fit animals have a higher chance of living and reproducing, and random mutations cause these improvements (though much more often results in disadvantages). Is that so hard?

Frankly, to this day, I simply don't understand where the skepticism comes from. I mean, I know that the fundamentally religious peoples are the ones who see the conflict, but really...Being a Christian -or religious- doesn't mean you should denounce all sciences which deviate from the -man written- Bible and make yourself look like an idiot. I believe it's just foolish -and a bit depressing- that some people can't rid themselves of the dogma, especially one as (for lack of better terms) ignorant as creationism.

Dilbert1234567

72% of all polls cited online are made up...

that being said, yes, there are idiots all around us, the lack of scientific understanding scares me.

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Willravel

Lol....I get it!

filtherton

I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of americans didn't believe in evolution. I bet that the majority of americans who do believe in evolution don't actually know shit about it just like the majority of americans who believe in cars don't know shit about mechanics.

When it comes down to it most people are just looking for that person with the authoritative clothing to tell them what to think anyway. Especially in esoteric matters like science and religion. I don't think it really matters all that much if someone believes in the validity of evolution because it just doesn't come up that much in the day to day goings-on of the vast majority of people.

I think a couple years ago i would have scoffed at someone who denies the validity of evolution. Now, it doesn't seem to matter all that much, just like it doesn't really matter to me anymore when i meet people who are staunch proponents of things they clearly don't understand. When the conversation goes that way i just nod and change the subject. When it comes to certain things, certain people don't think the way i do. That's okay, everyone has that right.

Carno

Well, I don't believe in evolution. I don't believe in creationism either.

Both of them are still just theories.

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Ballzor

There was a National Geographic magazine article that said that Evolution had literally been observed in a laboratory experiment . Now chances are there were 15 other experiments done that proved that experiment wrong, but still without getting into a major debate over which 'theory' is right, the fact that such a large number still believe in creationism is suprising.

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<Krost> I'm American so excuse my president.

LazyBoy

I'm a Christian....but I still must admit that there is FAR too much proof for the Theory of Evolution to (if not just accept it) AT LEAST give it some thought...

-Will

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archetypal fool

Well, this is still one of the current problems within science. It's a little hard to make an experiment which will verify any claim as to the origins of life, seeing as we still aren't 100% sure as to the composition or environment of the young Earth, similar to the case of verifying the Big Bang or String Theory. These are all things which will be contained in though-experiments and conceptualization for some time to come.

Seeing as you don't believe in evolution, I'll take it you're not a big fan of Richard Dawkins, but the first 3 chapters of his book 'The Selfish Gene' do a great job of explaining one of the leading theories as to the origins of life. Basicall, here's how it works (I won't get too technical, I promise, but I'm a Biology major, so forgive me... ):

The early oceans were filled with amino and nucleic acids (which are even present in asteroids and comets). By random chance (I think this is the property which throws people off of evolution), some bundles of nucleic acids began to reproduce (since they compliment themselves at the molecular level). The bundles of nucleic acids were independent of each other, and eventually, the nucleic acids began to get used up more and more as more and more bundles reproduced. Those who became more efficient at collecting or keeping the molecules were more likely to "survive" since they would be able to reproduce more often, and as a result, viola, natural selection! Fast forward trillions or quadrillions of generations, and here we are.

Problems most non-believers see with this:

Entropy: As you pointed out entropy is always increasing, but not as explicitly as we would expect. The universe isn't just breaking down to the lowest possible denomination, because then there wouldn't be complex molecules ANYWHERE, and even in the absence of life, there are always processes which create more and more complexity (e.g, supernovas), while at the same time creating entropy. In reality, this subject is WAY too complicated to discuss without bringing in mathematics and ugly terminology.

Probability: Yes, the chances of two or more nucleic acids finding each other and also becoming reproductive are astronomical (say, 1 in a billion trillion, or more). But, if you couple this with an ocean of trillions of trillions of trillions of such molecules, then there WILL be such an occurrence. The same equally applies to the random mutations which contribute to evolution and natural selection.

If there's a 1 in 10,000 chance of a mutation happening in your genes, you'd say that's high. If there's a point mutation (more on this later) in your genes, there's a 60% chance that nothing happens (since different codons can code for the same amino acid - think of it as back-up, just in case of a mutation), 39% chance of a disadvantageous defect, and a 1% chance of a beneficial change, then, again, in a population of millions or billions, there will be some individuals which gain advantages, and that's where natural selection steps in.
[Note: These percentages are dependent on the type of mutation. Point mutations are less influential, but more common, while insertions or deletions are much rarer, but VERY much more influential. Also, there's no set of percentages the way I have presented them here (i.e, 60%, 39%, 1%), but I feel this is as close to correct (considering point mutation, not insertions or deletions) as can be represented with percentages. Insertions and deletions are more like 0% chance of nothing happening, 99.9% chance of something bad happening, and 0.1% chance of something good.]

Well...That's as far as I'm willing to take it. I'm sure you're all bored to death, but if you're interested, look up 'The Selfish Gene' by Dawkins or 'Genome' by Ridely. Maybe knowing this extra information is why I so strongly support evolution. I know that if more people would actually study biology, a lot of misconceptions would be removed from the public eye.

Again, I apologize.

Evolution is can easily be found in laboratories. The only problem is some people refuse to consider it full-blown evolution. I'm talking, of course, of bacterial transformation.

Given enough time, money, and resources, larger, more complex animals can be seen to evolve. I suspect the next big trials for evolution will come from fruit flies, since they're so easy to keep alive and reproduce so copiously (both are pluses).

Also on the subject of full-blown evolution, some don't believe that animals will become "other" animals. That is, a fish never became an amphibian, which never became a reptile, which never became a mammal or bird. To this, there's one clear example which trumps this argument: Dinosaurs and birds. There's an obvious correlation in the skeletal structures of dinosaurs and birds which even the most clouded fundamental Christian can't deny.

bluepolaski

I recently saw an interview between Richard Dawkins (whom I find, personally, to be quite irritating and condescending, but my opinions can be saved for another thread) and the Bishop of Oxford.

The Bishop, apparently along with most Christians in England, did not refute the theory of Evolution. He quoted from a previous debate on the subject where it was said that God didn't simply create the world, but "makes the world make itself." Isn't that enough for wacky ass Christians here in America? I guess not, and my explanation is quite biased, but I suppose it should be offered anyway.

The Roman Catholic world seems to support much more philosophical and free thinking than the protestant Christian denominations. Catholics seem to me to be more flexible, hell, they've been flexing since the beginning: Christmas and Easter were both merged with pagan holidays in order to convert more "barbarians" in western Europe.

By contrast, Protestants, which are the majority in the US, take the bible very literally and very seriously. Therefore when posed with evolution they fiercely refute it, simply because that concept doesn't come up in the bible.

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dc_dux

I guess that explains this $27 million anti-evolution museum coming soon....there is a market:

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archetypal fool

That article was the funniest thing I've read in days...Then I realized they're serious. How disappointing. I couldn't begin to say how many problems there are with this...Brainwashing the youth because science doesn't agree with their fairy tales? What a truly twisted time we live in.

As long as people like the ones funding this museum walk the Earth, life will be unnecessarily complicated (no offense to some TFP members )

limbicsystem

polls aren't representative of half of america

Willravel

ROFL, that's completely awesome.

Ballzor

um... since pretty much every poll of America featuring any topic similar to this (republican/democrat, abortion/no abortion, gay/no gay, stem cell/no stem cell) is almost alwasys 50 50, I really think it might be true.

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<Krost> I'm American so excuse my president.

asaris

I'm suspicious. I mean, I run in fairly conservative Christian circles, and almost everyone I know believes in evolution. I suspect that people are opposing evolution to the notion of evolution as "God's tool", and so saying that they don't believe in evolution simply because they believe that God used evolution in his creation. That's a very different thing from believing in a six-day creation or something like that.

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Ample

Since most American are theist, I don't understand why any theist in their rational head would or ever could believe in evolution. God's assembly of the earth, stars, and life isn't that a cornerstone belief? I'snt the great almight as much as a designer as he is ruler over the universe? I'm surprised that the number isn't 75% or higher.

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samcol

I think it's because there's no reason why evolution and creationism have to be mutually exclusive. The bible says God created everything, but it says nothing about different species evolving and changing.

Now if you're talking about man evolving from bacteria in the water to tadpoles to monkeys to humans, then I agree with you. However with changes in climates and enviornments, I don't see how the more prominent genes that allowed a species to survive and evolve into something slightly different goes against creationism.

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filtherton

I would bet that if you spent some time familiarizing yourself with the diversity of american christian beliefs you would understand a little better.

The_Jazz

Ample, you must be using a different definition of the term "theist" than I am. As I understand it, simply believing in God doesn't necessarily disqualify anyone from believing in evolution. I know lots of Christians (my wife, for one) who believe in the theory but believe that God steered the process or was involved somehow. There's no immediate conflict in that interpretation.

It's the folks who believe that the world is only 6,000 or so years old that tend to have the biggest problem with the theory.

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ProfessorMayhem

The religious basis for refusing to accept simple biological facts is largely an American Christian phenomena. As I've observed, the problem in this country is two-fold.

First and foremost, a lot of people don't want to believe that evolution takes place simply because of pure ego. The idea that any given person is in fact not the special creation of some omnipotent father figure can be unsettling for someone brought up in a religious way of life. People tend to have an over-inflated sense of self importance when it comes to our role on this planet. We invent arbitrary reasons with which we imagine ourselves as being "outside" of nature or "above" other organisms on this planet. The fact that we share a common ancestry with organisms that some people consider "beneath" humans causes a lot of people to shun the reality of evolution and natural selection.

Second, biology is a complicated subject. It's easier to reject something outright because of an inability to understand it than it is to actually get off your ass and learn. Creationism offers an easy answer that requires little thought and virtually no compelling evidence, and people like easy answers.

Part of this is the fault of our educations system. When the average person thinks of evolution, they think of that "monkey to man" diagram from old museum displays. They think of evolution as going from single-celled organisms to mammals and higher primates. This isn't even close to what the theory of evolution actually entails. The ridiculously inept understanding of evolution that a lot of people have is easy to reject, because it doesn't make any sense. Most people really aren't going to bother to tackle the aspects of evolutionary biology, anthropology, genetics, zoology, paleontology, etc. required to get a firm grasp on the subject matter.

In short, people are lazy and people are vain. ""Simple and flattering" is preferable to "complex and impartial to one's preconceived notions of religious self-importance." Fortunately, this doesn't change simple observations and objective fact. People can refuse to believe in evolution all they want, it isn't going to change the fact that it happens.

A rejection of gravity isn't going to prevent you from falling on your ass.

Jinn

This title is wrong. It should say that half of America doesn't understand evolution.

There are many things that people confuse with the word "believe." However, not "believing" something is much different than not "understanding" something.

I'm not at all surprised that 50% don't believe (despite the obvious sample-size flaw) because even more than that don't understand it.

I think Anthropology should be required in all high schools nationwide. There's far too much evidence to be ignored.

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Dilbert1234567

evidence? thats just Satan tricking you.

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Willravel

ProfessorMayhem, you clearly get it. Nice post.

Dilbert1234567

an excerpt from a report i wrote last year:
oh and if my professors here and recognizes this report, send me a shout... and um... yes that is me in Tilted Exhibition

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Jinn

Wow, ProfessorMayhem - I just saw your post. I agree with Will, you nailed it. Well said.

EDIT: Damn you people, you post too fast. You too, Dilbert.

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Willravel

Nice report, Dil. I hope you got an A.

abaya

Yes!! I agree. Not only for the sake of educating young minds, but because that would help me get a job after this damn PhD is finished.

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