josobot

We have been musing abstractly, personally, and Occidentally. Consider this writer's global prediction: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/IH07Ad03.html

Baraka_Guru

The Progressive: Apart from Buddhism, what are your sources of inspiration?

The Dalai Lama: Human values. When I look at birds and animals, their survival is without rules, without conditions, without organization. But mothers take good care of their offspring. That’s nature. In human beings also, parents—particularly mothers—and children have a special bond. Mother’s milk is a sign of this affection. We are created that way. The child’s survival is entirely dependent on someone else’s affection. So, basically, each individual’s survival or future depends on society. We need these human values. I call these secular ethics, secular beliefs. There’s no relationship with any particular religion. Even without religion, even as nonbelievers, we have the capacity to promote these things.

Religion isn't necessary; human values are. Yet, the purpose of religion, if you cut out the corrupted teachings and appropriated cultures, is to teach these values. Be religious if that works for you; be atheistic if that works better. Compassion is not exclusive to those who believe in a "Greatest Conceivable Being" (GCB).

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

debaser

I don't believe in a GCB, but I don't like being lumped in with the Atheist Orthodoxy either. Do I have to fit my beliefs into a preconceived pidgeon-hole?

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Willravel

Atheist Orthodoxy? That's a doxymoron. Bwahahaha.

Sorry.

albania

Have you ever read the bible? There's some crazy shit in there (no offense to bible lovers). Some things if true have no apparent scientific explanation. The logical conclusion that most come to, which is better supplied by historians than scientists, is that the stories in the bible aren't true, or, a more pc answer, that they're not literal. It's not so much that science can explain everything in the bible, it's more like science takes the wind out of the sails of the religion boat. I know that if the most learned man in my village(let's say some 600 years ago) presented the things in the bible as true, I'd be inclined to believe him. Subsequently, it would be hard for me to question the existence of god. That hurdle has been removed by science so now it's more like just one lap around the track without hurdles to get to atheism. (Two analogies I'm on fire!)

Baraka_Guru

It is impossible to explain everything in the Bible by natural, scientific means. Miracles are a breaking of God's own natural laws. That's why they're considered miracles. It also explains why miracles have a very low probability of occurring. For an interesting explanation of miracles within the context of human understanding, read David Hume's On Miracles.




Life is too complex to be pigeon-holed. But before I try it on you, what say you of human values?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

debaser

Define human values. I am human, and I have a certain set of values, but they may not be the same as yours.

EDIT - Nevermind, I see you are refering to your post above. I agree for the most part with what is written there, certainly there is a universal set of behaviors that is neccessary for our survival as a species. Whether this is a value judgement or simple instinct is another matter all together.

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josobot

I do not take either the bible or religion literally, but rather poetically. And I believe that the poetic can be just as real as anything--even science. Pure science is atheistic and anti-poetic. And many atheists reject the poetic. However, many of the great scientists, awed by existence, have needed to resort to the poetic.

For example: There are moments when one feels free from one's own identification with human limitations and inadequacies. At such moments one imagines that one stands on some spot of a small planet, gazing in amazement at the cold yet profoundly moving beauty of the eternal, the unfathomable; life and death flow into one, and there is neither evolution nor destiny; only Being. - Albert Einstein

Humanitarismus

as stated above i think it is very obvious that it is impossibile to proof or refutate the miraculous stories of the bible.

thus it is only possibile to interpret the bible in a allegoric way. in my point of view it is very primitive to read word for word of the bible and to applicate word for word on the world. there are also scientist which believe in god and evolution. there is no reason why the bible contradicts evolutionary theory if you interpret the bible allegoric. you will often find allegoric interpretations in history in that periods of civilisations in which dominate wealth and security.

i'm not a believer or atheist. i'm a agnostic.

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"I have no respect for the passion for equality, which seems to me merely idealizing envy" Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

Baraka_Guru

Yes. The Bible appears to me to be more about the why, not the how. I think it is essential to read as allegory. I haven't read enough of the Bible, nor do I know enough about its history, but isn't it considered the word of God, not a journal of happenings?

Even the Dhammapada uses allegory, as do many other ancient texts, I'm sure. In it the Buddha says:

Killing mother and father, and two warrior kings, killing a kingdom with all its subjects, the priestly one goes untroubled.

-Miscellany, XXI

An everyday practictioner--the kind Buddha taugh himself--was not expected to kill their parents or their rulers or their entire society. Here is a legend to what Buddha teaches here:

• Mother and father = greed and conceit
• Two warrior kings = grasping and rejecting
• The kingdom with all its subjects = the totality of the individual's experience of life in the domain of conditioned existence.

(From the Dhammapada, trans. Thomas Cleary)

It would be folly to read this passage literally. Why would we do it the Bible? Ancient literature is heavily allegorical. Allegory is a teaching tool. Realist literature didn't come about in any large sense until the 19th century.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Leto

A Cartesian perspective:

Willravel

I'm going to go scare the living shit out of Pastor Manuel.

Baraka_Guru

Don't worry. Took care of it.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Well met, good sir.

Ustwo

Atheists have always been there, its only lately a lot have been coming out of the closet so to speak.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

fresnelly

There must be a God because Ustwo is back.

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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

Datalife2

people try to relate things to a god but there is no proof. Give the world just one sign and then we will all unite have one religon.

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where's my lighter?

Jenna

I don't know, I've thought things out and I've come to the conclusion that I'm athiest. It's not easy. Religion is a great way to deal with problems and to not be afraid of death. However, I just don't see the reality in God or any religion.

Ustwo

When people start to congratulate each other for a terminal illness then I'll believe it. I don't think it really does much about the fear of death for most people.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Jenna

Do you mean that faith doesn't help people? Death is hard no matter what. But, believing that you're going to see your loved one after they die in heaven, and that they're looking down on you helps you overcome the fact that they are gone.

I on the other hand, believe that once my family is gone, they're gone. They are just going to be recycled by earth.

And believing that you're going onto live in heaven is a better thought than believing that you're done, and you have nothing else after death.

Willravel

I've been an atheist for a few years, and I've found that my feelings about death have shifted fundamentally. I don't fear death. I hope my posterity outlives me, and I hope no one dies painfully, but the death itself is just fine.

Ustwo

I mean, if people really believed in their religions they would find out someone had cancer and throw a party in celebration. Soon that person would be free from the potential of sin and hell and now be one with god.

Just imagine the reaction of you congratulated someone whos kid had cancer. By logical extension of religious thought, that child will go to the grace of god without facing the temptations of adult sinning, if life is but a tiny fraction of the eternal what matters 70 years of life compared to an eternity in heaven?

Now mind you there are some people with this level of faith or as I like to say blissful delusion, but they are looked upon as nutjobs by the population as a whole.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

asaris

A belief in an afterlife doesn't mean we shouldn't be sad when someone dies, just like a belief in Akron doesn't prevent us from being sad when a friend moves there.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Jenna

I never said it wasn't going to be hard I said "Death is hard no matter what."

All I'm saying is that believing in an afterlife is sometimes an easier way to get through these situations, kind of like a healing method.

When I speak to my mother about her mom's death, it's always "I know she's looking down on me, and I know I will see her in heaven." She's not an overly religious person. She goes to church probably once or twice a year. However, this thought has helped her through times.

My cousin who just died of Hepatitis turned to God a few years before he died, and so did all of his family. I just find it odd that THEN they found God. It helps heal the thoughts that someone is gone. I'm not saying it makes everything ok that they died, but it does help.

Infinite_Loser

How is that a logical extension? It seems more of a stretch, to me. Solace is taken in the fact that you'll see the departed again one day; Not that they're dead.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Ustwo

If you are a believer why would you CARE?

Death should be a celebration, a triumph, a graduation of sorts.

If you believe in God and an afterlife then death shouldn't be a time for tears and needing comfort, in fact you should be jealous if anything as they are now free from the devils temptations, they are one with god!

Of course, almost no one is like that (though some in fact are), most 'religious' people at best are uncertain deep inside, and I guarantee if you gave out pills that caused one to be immortal very few would turn them down.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

You are forgetting the aspect of suffering. Christians left behind their barbaric view of physical suffering and closeness to God back in the Middle Ages.

Also, you described many people here, including atheists, when you say most people are at best uncertain deep inside. The fear of suffering is in us all, whether we are religious or not. To assume we should be otherwise is to assume we should be perfect: We are going to die, so why do we fear it? What's the big deal? Come on now. It's the way things are.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ShaniFaye

It's simple, as a human being (I'm speaking for myself here) I'm selfish. I DO rejoice that a loved one is with God and their loved ones that have passed on previously (as that is what I believe). I grieve for myself and what I will no longer have in my every day life.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ustwo

Sorry but I don't buy it, I'm not saying you don't think thats your reason, I'm saying calling grief selfishness sounds like sophistry to justify the concept.

We are all selfish of course but a common lament among survivors in some tragedy where they lost a love one is they wish they had died instead of their wife/child etc.

I know I would take a bullet for my kids but it wouldn't be because I was so selfish I couldn't stand the grief, but because I want them to be ALIVE because I care for them so much.

But lets say I'm wrong, it is the selfishness...

Then why are people not happy when they themselves get a terminal illness? It should be like winning the lottery, you not only get to see god and family (who aren't in hell of course) but you get time to say goodbye and wish them to hurry along and come see you soon.

I do believe religion is that comfort for some people, but its a hallow empty comfort of make believe and tricking yourself in your grief to believe that maybe, some day you will see them again.

The thing is I'm not sure it is the right thing. I think people would think of life as a lot more precious if they couldn't limit its importance with a myth of immortality.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ShaniFaye

And you have every right to that opinion Ustwo

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Jenna

Which is exactly why I'm an athiest.

pig

break in your regularly scheduled debatery on the old 'god and jesus' bit to say welcome back ustwo. it's good to see you creeping back into some of these threads.

--carry on--

i have no doubt that belief in higher 'powers' and deities helps with the suffering of this world and the fear of death. but you can't really overanalyze it ustwo...it doesn't work that way, and you know it. i've always found the heaven concept to be a grab bag. it's sort of 'what you like'...and its relation to events in the mortal world are also 'what you like.' the heaven concept is not a particularly logical concept (no offense to anyone...but i think this falls under the old faith/logic split) - so why would its ancilliary relations be logical?

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

Ummm... Why wouldn't I care? If Jesus lamented the death of Lazarus then why shouldn't I lament the death of a love one?

It is, but not in the way you want to portray it.

*Points all the way upwards*

Seriously. Now you're just being absurd bordering on callous.

It has very little to do with uncertainty. The allure of living forever simply appeals to one's inner-most desire; A desire, mind you, that is shared by all living organisms.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

tecoyah

I must not be living then..."cause I sure as hell dont want to live forever...heh.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Infinite_Loser

Like I said, the desire to live is a basic instinct present in all living organisms. Since you 'say' you don't want to live forever, let me rephrase my statement: "You want to live as long as possible." Everything does. It's a natural.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Ustwo

Ok so you KNOW there is a God and all those loved ones waiting for you, YET you choose to never meet him in person?

Come now.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ubertuber

In what way is that callous? I'm honestly curious about this - I would have thought that what ustwo wrote was the natural extrapolation of Christian belief.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Infinite_Loser

You've overlooked one very important flaw in your argument. One doesn't need to die to see God; You only need to live up until the Rapture [/insert more smilies here]

People, in general, aren't afraid of death so much as they are afraid of the pain associated with it.

Extrapolation my foot. I guess you'd accept "We should kill young children before they have the chance to sin, as they'll go to heaven and be with God!" a logical extension of Christian belief too, huh?

An absurd statement an argument does not make.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

ubertuber

The question I'm asking isn't about my beliefs Infinite_Loser. I'm not a Christian, so my thoughts won't lead me to understand where Christians draw their lines.

I'm asking a Christian where these lines are, so I can learn. The situtation as I understand it doesn't make sense. So in a way, I'm paying you the oblique compliment of assuming that there must be more to it than contradiction -- I just haven't understood it yet.

I'm trying to understand you and you're trying to argue with me.

This has become a tedious pattern.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Ustwo

You are trying to avoid the question with a bad straw man.

Murder is a sin of course, though this has been used as an excuse by the faithful before for murder.

I think we all have our answer here.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.