12-11-2006, 08:39 AM | #41 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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We are witnessing an even that could cause as large a change to the fabric of the universe as has happened since the universe was a few seconds old.
Intelligence is a virus in the physics system. Use your brain and grasp what kinds of things Intelligence can do, even without technology much beyond what we have right now. And there is reason to think that technology isn't going to come to a complete stop in the next decade... Look at the big bang, and see how many increadibly amazing things happened in a fraction of a fraction of a second. The power of exponential growth is scary.
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
12-11-2006, 01:36 PM | #42 (permalink) | |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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12-12-2006, 12:07 PM | #43 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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No. The Invisible Pink Unicorn, in an opposing alliance with the Flying Spagetti Monster (may I be touched by his noodly appendage), created Evolution. This Evolution was guilded by The Colour We Cannot See to produce a being who created God.
God doesn't exist. God, as a concept, was created by IPU and FSM through the mechanism of Evolution and TCWCS. I mean, if you are going to add in one uncaused cause that cannot be either detected or disproven, why not add in dozens! Why believe in only one arbitrary being -- believe in them all!
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
12-12-2006, 10:15 PM | #44 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: California
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The "Why not believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster instead of God" argument is flawed- I wish people would stop using it. You can make arguments like "what was the cause of the Big Bang?" and answer "God", and there's also a historical perspective of people believing in God as opposed to FSM.
The idea that a being existing outside of Nature, and thereby being capable of causing the First Cause without needing a cause of its own is something worth consideration, in my opinion. Given God created the Universe, I would have to say that God would necessarily have also created Evolution, or an elaborate hoax to make it appear to exist, due to the preponderance of evidence in favor of it.
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It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got. |
12-12-2006, 11:19 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
Devils Cabana Boy
Location: Central Coast CA
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The "Why not believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster instead of God" statement is no more flawed then believing in a supernatural being. most religious people don't believe in 99.999% of all the gods out there, why this one? What is wrong with dismissing one more god. Isis, Ra, Vishnu, Ares, Zeus... why stop one god short?
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Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen Last edited by Dilbert1234567; 12-12-2006 at 11:24 PM.. Reason: removing 'you' |
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12-13-2006, 02:45 PM | #47 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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I love that line "the color we cannot see"! Reference?
I thought the Big Bang happened because the forces within the original particle became insupportable and thus it exploded. All perfectly natural, if difficult to grasp, and 13.7 billion years later, here we are discussing what I consider a fantasy born of primitive fears and hopes. It's wild to think of.
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12-15-2006, 12:01 AM | #48 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: Sweden, Stockholm
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If evolution - because it maximises both mean fitness and disorder - explains both good and evil things, a dilemma with God and evolution seems to be that God may have created the evil also? Or is it that the creation is not finished yet and that the good things - in the long run - will dominate more and more due to the maximisation of mean fitness? |
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12-15-2006, 12:25 AM | #49 (permalink) | ||
Artist of Life
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Along the lines of Dilbert's previous statement, I find the idea of evolution creating what we would call God/s very intriguing. Natural selection through millions of Big Bangs and Crunches.
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In the case of "Good" and "evil", one is not necissarily more efficient than the other. Moreover, they, like intelligence, have not yet proved themselves to be a necissary tool for survival. If they were (which I doubt) it would make more sense for them to reach an eventual state of equilibrium. Last edited by Ch'i; 12-15-2006 at 12:43 AM.. |
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12-16-2006, 12:04 AM | #50 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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I happened upon an article in Discover today, and dated a " long time" in the past, that postulates our universe is the effect of our universe acting on another universe, situated so that we can't see it. Does anybody here ascribe to this theory, and would you try to explain it to me? With this idea there would be places we could go! Lebensraum is necessary. Um, sorry but thankyou......
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12-16-2006, 12:35 AM | #51 (permalink) |
Artist of Life
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Sounds a bit like M Theory. The reason we supposedly cannot see the relationship between realities is because we are three dimensional beings and those interactions happen in higher dimensions; 1 dimensional beings can't see two dimensional beings; 2 dimensional beings can't see 3 dimensional beings, ect. (Supposedly)
//end thread-jack// |
12-16-2006, 01:01 AM | #52 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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//end thread-jack//? Supposedly the 10 dimensional (whatevers) know everything, or/and can do everything, and we're so lucky to be here existing in our entertaining little 3-dimensional place that we won't ever wonder?
Not to say something sacriligeous, but good luck to the powers that be! xx
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12-17-2006, 04:22 PM | #56 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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For you are an apple, and I am the peel!
To the "strange question" I wonder at the pertinence of any points. Given that the universe is the soil, God grew out of it along with evolution. Given that the universe is God's soil, OMG!
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12-18-2006, 04:13 PM | #58 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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I'm going to have to stick to Dilbert's answer, I guess. How would the apple have grown? In any case, does that address whether God created evolution?
NOW I'm wondering what thread-jacking really is. I'm also thanking you for all your input!
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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT |
12-19-2006, 09:08 AM | #59 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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The Colour We Cannot See is a homage to Lovecraft's (I think) "The Colour From Out Of Space".
God could have created evolution if and only if "God" existed before evolution did. If God is a product of evolution, then God did not create evolution. On the other hand, if God created the universe and everything in it, and evolution exists, then God created evolution. So to determine if God created evolution, one must determine if God created the universe or not. Or you can determine if evolution exists. Or you can determine if God somehow came into being after the universe existed, but before evolution existed.
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
12-20-2006, 09:53 AM | #60 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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...or you cannot determine any such thing and it all tumbles back into the place where strange questions come from.
...gotta love Lovecraft, thanks yakk!
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12-30-2006, 03:16 AM | #61 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: Sweden, Stockholm
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Many interesting points of view have been contributed, but, sorry to say, I have not been able to answer all.
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Assuming that the evil is caused by the genetic or phenotypic disorder, caused by the entropy law, and that the “good” is caused by the mean fitness, you are right in the sense that one is not more efficient than the other. But they form a sort of duality, which follows from the theorem of Gaussian adaptation, which can be proved in two different ways. Firstly, one may maximise the mean fitness keeping the disorder constant, leading to the condition of optimality that m* = m (m and m* defined as before) in a state of equilibrium. Secondly, t is possible to maximize the disorder (proportional to the logarithm of the volume of the concentration ellipsoid of the Gaussian) keeping the mean fitness constant, leading to the same condition of optimality, m = m*, meaning that Gaussian adaptation (GA) effectuates a simultaneous maximization of mean fitness and disorder. This may be understood from the simple figure below where a circular gene pool is placed in triangular region of acceptability. If the circle is slightly moved in some arbitrary direction mean fitness will decrease, but may be restored if the radius of the circle is decreased (disorder is decreased). Thus, in the optimal position – when the circle touches the three sides of the triangle – both the mean fitness and the disorder are maximal. The advantage with the GA-theorem is that it is valid for all regions of acceptability – not only triangles – and all Gaussian distributions. Thus, both “good” and “evil” seem to be necessary for survival, because without the random variation and selection (causing both maximal mean fitness and disorder) there will be no evolution. But I am still optimistic in the sense that “evil” will be alleviated as a cause of increased mean fitness, in the long run. I also wish all debaters a Happy New Year 2007. |
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12-30-2006, 04:26 PM | #62 (permalink) | |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT |
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01-01-2007, 12:29 PM | #64 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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Pink is said to be soothing.
"In the beginning" is an extravagant statement, even for religious fantasists. "Evolution" has led to where we are, has it not? Thankyou, Godornot! (unless it hurt).
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01-10-2007, 04:30 AM | #65 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: LSD
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I'm only partly joking. The worst that can happen is that you will have a bad a trip and forever be haunted by the memories of what you saw and have to live with the realisation that your brain/some higher being conjured them leading to anxiety or paranoia. But that is extremely unlikely - its far more likely that you will find satisfactory answers to these questions because they are, after all, chemical reactions in your head. |
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01-10-2007, 05:00 AM | #66 (permalink) | |
Insane
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All the creation myths all over the world begin with a big nothing, then a separation of "water" or "earth" or "light" from that nothingness. Why is that ? http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/uranus.htm - here are some creation myths Last edited by pai mei; 01-10-2007 at 05:07 AM.. |
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01-10-2007, 09:34 PM | #67 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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It is said that Einstein couldn't tie his shoes.
(Also it is said) the original particles came from pre-existing universes. Why don't I "mind" my pre-boggled mind?
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