Visitation issues

[Suzz04]

Hey guys & gals,

Before I start off on my little tirade or whatever you'd like to call it... let me first say that I realize that everybody has different ideas of parenthood and raising children.

Alittle background. I have a 10 yr old daughter and have been divorced for 6 years. Althought I separated 8 years ago. Took me two years to finally get my divorced finalized.

My ex-husband lives in New York. I am in Virginia. I have primary custody of her. He calls usually every Sunday if he remembers. And gets her when he comes in for Thanksgiving and Christmas.

During the summer, he usually takes her for 2 to 4 weeks to New York. Our agreement in the divorce papers did state that he was allowed to have her for 4 weeks that one year. However, it didn't say that this was a permanent visitation type order. Just that it was supposedly for that summer. She was 4 at the time and I felt it woudl be tramatic for her to be forced to go stay with her father. On the note, I have to say that during the 2 years of divorce proceedings, he barely spoke to her, much less visited. He was almost a stranger to her by the time this visitation came about.

That summer she was taken out the door by him. She was kicking, screaming and crying. One would almost feel that she was being beaten to death to have heard her.

Currently, she is in New York as I type this. She told her father for 2 months that she didn't want to go this year. I tried to warn him that she didn't want to go. He said that they, meaning her and him, would discuss it when the time came. She still didn't want to go right up til he got here. She asked him if she could stay and not go. No such luck.

Now, I realize that at 12, she will be able to decide and there won't be much he can do on it. My problem is what is happening now. She's been with him since Sunday. She's cried every time I've talked to her. She sounds like she's done alot of crying before and after phone calls. I realize that she's homesick.

But, tonight really made me wonder why he even takes her each summer. She took her computer, little pet shop collection, and video now with her. He doesn't have anything really there for her to play with. They've been there that long and he's not bothered to hook up the computer for her. She's watched her video now and dvd's on the laptop til she's almost got them memorized.

I understand he's allowed to decide what she can or can't eat and drink. I'm not sure if he's doing it this summer, but usually she is not allowed to have anything that has caffeine in it. However, he drinks it himself right there in front of her. I've never denied her certain drinks or foods. I do moderate how much she has of it. He did make a deal with her that he wouldn't drink any pop while she was there. I made a comment that it was rude to sit and drink that in front of someone and not allow them any. I'm sure if someone was to come into his home he would offer them whatever he had. I just can't see why it doesn't apply to her.

He tells her to be quiet so he can work. He's working from home for 2 weeks. Mostly on call. He doesn't want her to be on the couch. He lays down on it and complains when she's on it. She can't watch tv because he needs quiet time to be able to read while laying on the couch. And he needs quiet time to watch some poker show.

They've been swimming twice. And out to get bedding type stuff the day they arrived in New York. That's about the extent of the trips out of the apartment. The pool is part of the apartment building. I feel that if she was 12, he'd send her down alone so he wouldn't have to go. But, pool rules are under 12 must have a adult.

I've never done my child support review. That came over over 3 years ago. I've always been afraid to do it. But, now I'm thinking about getting a lawyer to help her be able to have the choice to go as well as get my support reviewed. The division that handles my support said they could do that on their own with their own laywers, but would take up to a year or more to see if there was a increase or decrease.

She's a bright child. She knows what she wants and knows how to make her own decisions. She's active and sometimes has trouble playing alone. She's very social and it's hard to keep her cooped up and occupied for long periods (ie winter).

I'm at my wits end.... I have been accused of being over protective and need to back off. Just tell her to hush about it and send her on her way. I feel guilty enough as it is telling her that this year might be different and he'll pay attention to her more than last time.

Should I get a lawyer and see about having the visitation amended? The decree didn't say that this was a yearly type visit. TFP is known for their wonderful advice, comments, suggestions. I'm not asking for anyone to sugar coat it. I just want it like it is.

[Ample]

Four weeks out of 52 is really not a lot of time. As long as he is not physically abusing her I think that he should be aloud this little time, weather the daughter likes it or not. Don’t forget that she is only 12 and maybe when she is older she would value that little time she had with her father.

I know sometimes my daughters are unhappy when they are with me. I run a tighter ship than my exwife. We just have different parenting styles, as does you and your daughter’s father. It is unreasonable to expect him to raise your daughter in the exact manner that you do.

One thing you have to keep in mind with the couch, drinks, and television is that you are hearing this second hand, and it might not be as bad as your daughter portrays it to be.

Best advise I could give is to talk to him, and see if there is anything that could be done to make her visits more pleasant. If he isn’t around 12 year olds all the time, he really isn’t going to know what they are like and what there needs are.

As far as the child support I would defiantly get it revised if you feel that you are not getting your fair share. Personally I would wait until she comes back to get that ball rolling.

[maleficent]

I made a comment that it was rude to sit and drink that in front of someone and not allow them any. I'm sure if someone was to come into his home he would offer them whatever he had. I just can't see why it doesn't apply to her.

She's a child, he's an adult... If he were sitting down having a beer or a double scotch,would you expect him to offer her one? I surely hope not... It's not rude to have a soda in front of her and not offer her any if those are the rules, it's not like he's taunting her with it.. there are child beverages and adult beverages...

[Toaster126]

There is also evidence that growing people shouldn't have lots of caffeine. And parents get to tell children what they get to eat if they feel like it.

But you are being a concerned mom, which is your job. Relax. Unless you think he is abusing her or whatnot, just realize you aren't in control during that time and chill out.

[cj2112]

so let me get this straight, you want to deny the absent parent visitation with the child because he only sees her a few times a year, and from what a homesick 10 y.o. tells you, he's not as attentive as you would like him to be?

[Suzz04]

Actually, I have to say that I wouldn't be denying him visitation. Just that if she didn't want to go, she would be allowed the choice.

I wouldn't have a problem with him doing parenting his own way, but his other child has now left and refuses all contact with him after being treated pretty much the same way. Only her mother gave up full custody of her before she was 3. I can see this situation rapidly becoming a problem as she gets older.

I realize there are age appropriate drinks, but he doesn't allow her any soda at all. And her diet while there is mostly take out.

I guess some would have to have met and know him to understand my problems with him.

I'm not denying him visitation. I have been put through hell when it comes to trying to put together visits. The last 8 years have been done his way on the holidays. A few times I have even been told he wouldn't be coming in for a holiday time and then he shows up demanding that I send her along when plans have been already made based on that he wasn't coming.

I haven't been unreasonable and have expressed my concerns that he doesn't pay attention to her. Remembering that his other child has dropped out of contact to avoid him. She went through a rough life. I'd rather not see at 18 that happen with this one.

[savvypup]

One thing you have to keep in mind with the couch, drinks, and television is that you are hearing this second hand, and it might not be as bad as your daughter portrays it to be.

This is exactly what I was going to start off on. Gosh, just maybe she's not getting her way and doesn't like his rules.

He's her father, you can't deny him access. Yes, 4 weeks out of 52 isn't an awful long time to build a father / daughter relationship especially the type that you envisage or have with your daughter. Personally, I think you should be encouraging her to spend time or at least involve him in her life.

If he doesn't call on a Sunday, do you suggest to your daughter to call him? If she does something special at school, why not encourage her to call and tell him. Who knows, he could be really touched that she's thought to make the effort. It's not a one way street and he doesn't have ESP.

Do you spend 24/7 entertaining your daughter? He obviously has work responsibilities as I assume you do too, and he can't put that on hold just for your daughter.

I'm sorry, to me it just seems like you're not looking at the whole picture and then again I only know the smallest snippet. But put the shoe on the other foot. There are lots of single parents out there that just because they're not the sole provider for that child, doesn't mean they don't love and want to be a valuable influence on that child.

[Derwood]

If he has a legal right to visitation, it doesn't really matter if your daughter wants to go or not. The reason it's not up to her is that one or both of the parents could easily influence her decision

[cj2112]

Thank you for clarifying what you were saying...

perhaps breaking the summer visit up into 2 seperate visists 2 weeks at a time w/ a month or so in between would benefit both your daughter and her Dad. I think that this might help calm some of the boredom for both parties, and would probably help them develop a closer relationship. I don't have too much issue with the soda deal at all, he IS the parent, she IS the daughter.

You need to make her go unless you have good reason to strongly suspect actual abuse, or neglect to the point where it's dangerous for her to be there. Keep in mind that she is 10...and if she's anything like my 12 y.o. daughter was @ 10, or is now, she is likely very dramatic. Keep in mind that she is not an adult, and doesn't process or react to things with the same maturity as an adult. Therefore you have to realize that when she says he tells her to be quiet so he can work, he may be saying that to her right before he gets on the phone with a client. I think you may just be getting one side of the picture here and need to have an adult conversation (without making any accusations at all) with your ex.

[Suzz04]

I'm not wanting to completely cut his visitation. I can't seem to make any one understand that. I have encouraged her to call him as well as visiting. I've had to almost at times do everything I can to get her to even go. It's not like I'm not trying. I am not sitting around here telling her that her father is a bad man and she should hate him. He's proven to her himself that he will not pay attention to her then, now or later. You can only put off doing the things you promise them so many times before it gets old.

The original court issued visitation was 4 weeks to be take 2 weeks then the other two weeks at a later time during the summer. He refuses to acknowledge that. There is no co-operation with him. It's always been his way on things and doesn't matter if it interfers with your life, plans, or anything. He simply does not care.

I sat and thought for a while on the abuse/neglect. And I remembered a instance where at the age of 7, she managed to open a window and was hanging out of it. Not so bad right? Wrong. He lives on the 6th floor of a apartment building.

She may be alittle dramatic, but I watched what he did to the other child from the time I entered their lives. It was exactly the same thing.

He's not telling her to be quiet before he gets on the phone with a client. He has no clients. He works for a bank as the network admin and is currently on call for another week or so. Last summer when she stayed, she had to wake him up in order to go to work. He wouldn't set the alarm and said she would need to wake him up. She's like every kid, summer time means sleep in time alot.

To even be able to get his attention at any point, (and yes, this still happens) with both children, they start off with "daddy?" for about 7 or 8 times. After about 10 minutes, of trying to get his attention, they had progressed to the point of calling him by his full name. Mind you, during this time, he's not working, or on the phone, he's usually watching tv, reading a book, or playing a game on the computer. Many times I have had to get up and go over to him and force him to acknowledge that they were speaking to him. I still have to do it today. I'm not sure if he's just so engrossed in himself or just doesn't want to hear them.

My life is constantly put through hell around the summer and holidays. I'll get told 6 months in advance that he's coming in or not for that time and I make plans according to what he says. However, there have been many times, that he has told me he's not coming and I have made plans. Now, I'll say that I have asked him right up til 2 weeks before the holiday if he's still coming or not. There have been times he's called me the night before he gets ready to drive down that he's coming in and I have to cancel everything.

On a side note, there is no adult conversation with him. It doesn't matter how calmly and rational my ideas or arguments are. I'm treated as if I'm 2 again and that I have completely no idea of anything. I'm just too stupid to know a damned thing about what goes on in the world or how to raise a child.

I never grew up around other children nor did I babysit. Our two years of marrige, I learned on my own how to take care of that baby. He was never home until after 11pm and disappeared with his friends for the weekend or wanted all of us, to go out so he could have his time.

I don't know if he's abusing her physically. I have told her on many occasions that no matter who they are or what they say, to come tell me about it. No matter how much one reassures a person of that, they still may never tell. I do know that he can inflict mental abuse. I took it for 2 years and for 3 more years after I left. He tells me things are one way, and when I go look it up, it's not that way.

For instance, our divorce. He assured me that I had to wait a year before I could file a separation agreement. Blindly naive, I believed him and waited a year. Til a co-worker was going the the exact same process and told me she filed her's the week she moved out. Whoops... there was a year of things I should have been doing and never done it. So, I had to file the agreement then wait a bit. It took me almost 2 years to finally get my divorce. I left in Nov 97 and finalized in Dec 99.

I have bent over backwards to accomodate his schedule for calling to talk to her. I have canceled birthday parties at the last minute before he came when he said he wasn't coming.

I have one thing to add before I'm finished. His oldest daugther is 21. After the same treatment he gave her that is happening to this one now, she left and he now has no clue where she is. He managed to put himself out of two marriages and has lost communication with one child. I fear that he's going to do the same things and end up with the same thing happening. I can't prevent it if he's doing it himself.

And let me stress it again since I'm not sure anyone is getting this part, I am not looking to completely cut him out of her life. I just want her to have some fairness on getting to decide alittle. You'd think after 8 years of her crying every time he gets her during the summer, he'd rethink about how the visits would go. I'm afraid that he simply does not care and needs to feel that he is in complete control.

[Lady Sage]

I feel perhaps there is more to the situation that she isnt telling you.

For a child of that age to be crying that much on phone calls she is either very disturbed (for lack of a better word) or a very good actress. I doubt she should be in pictures so I get the feeling she has valid reasons for feeling as she does.

If the father has this severe lack for seeing how distressed his child is he needs to be shot in the foot.

Thats all I have to say about that. My psychology classes have said their piece.

[cj2112]

I don't believe that you are trying to cut him out of the picture at all, that's why i thanked you for clarifying your earlier post.

The first thing you need to address is the inability to communicate with him, if that means you two have to go to mediation, then that's what has to happen. If he's unwilling to do mediation then it's time to take the next step which is:

You need to go back to court and get a very detailed visitation agreement hammered out. It needs to specifically state what days he has her, and between what times. When you do this, then you will be able to stop rearranging your life to meet his schedule, because the visitation schedule will be very clear. If he decides he's not coming, he misses the visit. If he shows up unexpectedly....tough shit, he doesn't get the visit unless it's on the schedule.

in the meantime, it sounds as if your daughter may have some issues surrounding the divorce that she needs some help with. i don't care if she talks to grandma (if grandma can put aside her own feelings about the situation), the counselor at school, or the friggin pizza guy that lives down the street....but she needs to be talking about this stuff to a neutral party.

I'm a full time single Dad of a 12 y.o. girl and a 10 y.o. boy. There mom hasn't spoken to the kids in 8 or so years now....i read stuff like this and I'm grateful that I don't have to go through that.

[cierah]

I'm not qualified in any way but reading the posts I thought of his other daughter - the 21 year old. I would suggest a talk with her about what went on - really, in hindsight, with an adult - when she was younger. It may be information that is good to know about your daughter now. The older daughter - depending on her personality and maturity - may be able to be a friend/ an ear to the 10 year old. You know - same shit different pile - sort of philosophy.

[Suzz04]

I would really love to talk to the oldest child. When I was with the family and with other visits of seeing her, she was a quite disturbed child. And, yes, the lady that we took our daughter to, I should say I took her to, was a pysch for small children. She recommended against the first 4 week visit at the age of 4.

I believe our child has issues. But, it's not the divorce that is the problem. She has been given answers that fit her age to understand over the years. She's got issues with him, I think. She's always talked about how she likes New York, but hates going there because if her sister isn't there, she's ignored. And, I know he ignores her. He still does it now. It's not something that has suddenly crept into our lives. He has been this way from the time she was born.

During our separation, he failed to keep in contact with her for a year. Then suddenly started calling once a week. Mind you, this started at the same time as the visitation issues were in court. I believe it may have been on the advice of his lawyer of phone records that he was keeping contact.

I have always wondered what he does to her when she's serious about something. I know that when I have tried to discuss her with him about serious things, he would laugh at me. He has always done that.

All I know on the oldest child is that she is somewhere west. That's all he could tell me. The younger one loves to talk to her sister and wants her to come visit. She really hoped that the oldest would be there this year, but her father finally admitted to her that he didn't know where she was.

The last talk those two girls had, the oldest told her that she was going to elope. The father was not to be told ever. The oldest does not want him there nor him to know. And I don't feel that I'm in the place to inform him of it. I'm sure if someone knew something like this on one of my children, I would want them to tell me. But, the little one was asked to promise to never tell. I would hate to be the cause of a broken promise between those two.

There have been times I have wished, sadly, that he wasn't in the picture anymore. It's been a aggravation each year with him that has made me a nervous wreck at times. Everyone that has known him and found out that I married him have all felt the same of him. They don't like him. Now, I'm not going to say that they said it for my sake, but, I doubt that unless it was a good friend it wouldn't have been said.

On a side note, my parents refuse to deal with him. He has pulled a few things that doesn't settle well with them. They don't talk about him. He's rarely discussed and if is, then she's not even with us. Alot of people don't even know the real reasons why I left. They all assumed that it was I met another man and wanted out. I have always been ashamed of my true reasons and will leave them with myself. The very few that do know aren't even sure how I survived the 2 years there.

Like alot of people, I'm sure they get tired of dealing with annoying, nerve grating people. Honestly, his voice over the phone sets me on each. Everytime he wants to speak to me, I cringe in horror at what he's going to spring on me next. Usually when he asks, it's to tell me something that's going to mess up plans, or something that is just plain silly.

I'm not going to say I'm the perfect parent, but I feel sometimes that even with just one child, I've done alot better than he has with two.

[Demeter]

I think it's good that even though Dad isn't perfect, he cares enough to take her for a few weeks & try to establish a bond
.
My kids do not see their Dad because he can't be bothered with them. On earlier occasions, years ago, he'd take them, but only after the kids begged him to let them come stay with him. The last time he had them, and I went to get the kids, I cried in horror at how he had ben neglecting them. If it wasn't for the fact that their Grandpa lived next door, the kids wouldn't have eaten or bathed at all.

If he had merely been somewhat inattentive or indifferent, I wouldn't have any issues. My dad never did anything wonderful or entertaining with us & we survived.

I think your daughter's homesickness & anxiety is partly propelled by your own anxiety. Kids pick up on that. Instead of trying to curtail the visits, work out ideas with him & her to keep her occupied.
If part of the problem is the child hardly sees Dad, she could keep in touch will calls or letter during the months of the year she doesn't see him. Like it or not, he's her Dad, and there's a relationship there that will always exist.

If I am totally off base, and this is more serious than I've perceived, you need to talk to a lawyer about changing your custodial agreement, because they aren't written in stone.