Catholicisim vs. Cultism - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

BentNotTwisted · 08-05-2003, 12:56 PM

I decided to post this here because I wanted to hear some critical thoughts regarding it and I didn't want to get flamed too badly by the Catholic's in the Philosophy board.
Way back when the Branch Dividian folks were being subjugated by the FBI, one of the broadcast news channels put up a list of what to look for in a cult. Being raised Catholic I am most familiar with that religion and as soon as I saw the bulleted items my only thought was they all apply to Catholicism.

I picked up the following list from: http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/cults.html after a quick search on google. My comments follow each w/ ****

# The spiritual group claims to have received special instructions from one or more "messengers from the sky."
**** Can you say Angels and Saints?

# The spiritual group uses a special set of rules that you must obey or be cast out.
**** Excommunication, nuff said.

# The spiritual group promises eternal life in a paradise if you obey its set of rules, and threatens eternal suffering if you do not obey its set of rules.
**** Heaven and Hell folks.

# The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible.
**** Give more, more, more

# The members of the spiritual group call each other "brother" and "sister," even when they aren't related at all.
**** Well, the clergy do this

# The spiritual group is led by a group of enlightened masters who wear strange clothes and speak in esoteric parables.
**** They used to do Latin masses and don't forget the pope's hat

# The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.
**** Um, I'll have to work on this one

# The spiritual group demands that you select your spouse and your closest friends from its membership.
**** Always marry a Catholic, all others must convert

# The spiritual group demands that you place your children in its training program.
**** I don't know about other children of Catholic families, but I had to attend catechism classes.

# The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future.
**** Even Prez Bush use the word Crusade is his plan for terrorist retribution.

Ok, so with one exception the cult warnings all fit. So, boys and girls. Is Catholicism a world wide cult?

TheKak · 08-05-2003, 02:10 PM

Yes, kill them all.

Eviltree · 08-05-2003, 02:27 PM

it sure sounds like it. Who would've thought.......

grumpyolddude · 08-05-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BentNotTwisted

# The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible.
**** Give more, more, more

(grump): Time was, you could "buy" your way into heaven by purchasing an indulgence. Don't buy, go to Hell! Ask Martin Luther.

# The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.
**** Um, I'll have to work on this one

(grump): The Catholic Church, as well as all proponents of the Old Testament, teach "Creationism" despite the entire geological record. They condemn mysticism, unless it suits their purposes (a: faith healing, b: resurection of the dead --not just of Jesus Christ, but of ALL who have past on, come Armegeddon *zombies?*, c: transmutation --water into wine, wine into blood, bread into flesh).

# The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future.
**** Even Prez Bush use the word Crusade is his plan for terrorist retribution.

Ok, so with one exception the cult warnings all fit. So, boys and girls. Is Catholicism a world wide cult?

(grump): In short, there are NO exceptions. All of the "acceptable" religions were originally cults that grew to a dominant position in their region of the world, usually usurping the previously established cult and incorporating significant concepts to appeal to the localites.
We don't honor "Mithras", but Christmas occurs during its old holy days. Think the timing of Easter is a coincidence?

Your hypothesis fits all of Christianity and Islam, and all the rest, if we take a good close look

MacGnG · 08-05-2003, 09:36 PM

cults are pretty much like religions (in theory; on paper) but the cult leader will try to get your money or personal belongings, as well as strip you of your personal rights, brain wash you...

the simple answer is that in religions you are still an individual, in cults you are not!

Looften · 08-05-2003, 10:54 PM

There really is no difference between a cult and a religion, both are simply religious organizations. Even major religions are considered a cult by some. Islam in general has been given such a bad reputation that many ignorent "patriots" consider it a cult.

However, the classifications of them is pureply subjective. You can't really make out a list such as that and consider it proof.

BentNotTwisted · 08-06-2003, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Looften
There really is no difference between a cult and a religion, both are simply religious organizations. Even major religions are considered a cult by some. Islam in general has been given such a bad reputation that many ignorent "patriots" consider it a cult.

However, the classifications of them is pureply subjective. You can't really make out a list such as that and consider it proof.

Loof, I am in agreement with you. I posted this to get members to take a look at how they classify things and at their religious beliefs. Are religions a form of cultism, somewhat. Are they as bad as these 'New Age' cults, not even close.

MSD · 08-06-2003, 07:25 AM

A cult becomes a religion when it gains respect.

Jonsgirl · 08-06-2003, 03:50 PM

*Amen* Preach it, Brother MrSelfDesruct!

Same Guy · 08-06-2003, 05:23 PM

preach it brother grump!

fuzzix · 08-07-2003, 04:59 AM

Yep, definately a cult. Though significantly milder than some.

floonine · 08-07-2003, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
A cult becomes a religion when it gains respect.

this would be my response. maybe not respect so much as political recognition.

BullHazzer · 08-08-2003, 09:01 AM

Couldn't you also say that any religion that is not concurrent with your own beliefs and religion is a cult?

I have long thought of Catholicism as a cult because their belief system is very divergent from the book they base their religion on. Many other cults in the past have taken the Bible and twisted it to say what they want, taking passages out of context or deleting / adding passages all together. Does the Catholic Church do that? (Shake your head yes)

And, just because a religion becomes mainstream, gains respect, or gains political recognition, does not make it any less of a cult?

skysooner · 08-08-2003, 01:26 PM

I think that any organization that claims to know all, etc. and doesn't allow you to think for yourself can be considered a cult. I know some churches that definitely can be considered that way as their members in no way, shape, or form are prepared to discuss differences in opinion in an intellecutal way. I hope my church isn't like that, but I know some hold opinions in there that might seem cultish (the difference is the rest of us laugh at them). Seriously, the Branch Davidians was just one in a long line of organizations where one man or woman claimed to speak for all. Sometimes the leaders rule by fear and intimidation. I'm glad I'm pretty strong-willed (and self-confident). I can see how some would fall under the sway of a strong person however. Look at the Jim Jones cult suicide.

Tophat665 · 08-08-2003, 01:59 PM

It's glib, it's flip, but it's also true: The Difference between a religion and a cult is PR.

A little more deeply, though (strangely, I was pondering this on the way home from work today), a religion is of a size that it provides it's primary function of obviating its member's alienation by inclusion in itself. A cult, on the other hand, obviates alienation by transferring the alienation of the individual member to the group as a whole, thus setting itself against society at large. Religions drive society (sad but true), cults do not.

BentNotTwisted · 08-08-2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tophat665
It's glib, it's flip, but it's also true: The Difference between a religion and a cult is PR.

A little more deeply, though (strangely, I was pondering this on the way home from work today), a religion is of a size that it provides it's primary function of obviating its member's alienation by inclusion in itself. A cult, on the other hand, obviates alienation by transferring the alienation of the individual member to the group as a whole, thus setting itself against society at large. Religions drive society (sad but true), cults do not.

If I understand correctly you are saying organized religions make the members feel part of their internal group and try to get their organization to fit into the greater community. Cults try to get their members to feel part of the cult but in the end alienate their group from society as a whole. Interesting take.

TheKak · 08-08-2003, 05:15 PM

You dont think Catholics are alienated from society? I mean just look at their leader. He has his own city, and his own bank. Hmmm....?

grumpyolddude · 08-08-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheKak
You dont think Catholics are alienated from society? I mean just look at their leader. He has his own city, and his own bank. Hmmm....?

Recall, or research if you are too young to remember, how controversial and devisive J F Kennedy's presidential nomination was. Protestants were afraid that JFK's loyalties to the pope and the Catholic Church would interfere with his conduct as president. The separation of church and state were at risk, they thought. that was only 40 years ago.

tehblaed · 08-09-2003, 10:57 PM

# The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.

Can you say Creationism?

Lebell · 08-10-2003, 09:06 AM

Sigh,

Frankly, this post is non-sense and just a little research would have shown it, but I guess that's why it's in "Paranoia" instead of "Philosophy".

Just a few points:

-The Catholic Church doesn't demand you give up friends who aren't Catholic or marry Catholic. You DO have to promise to raise your kids Catholic.

-The Church officially recognizes evolution as the vehicle that God used to create man. It does NOT preach creationism.

-I don't recall ever being told as a youth I might have to sacrifice my life for the Catholic Church.

Anyway, I guess it's easy to spread lies and half truths. After all, that's how bigotry usually starts.

grumpyolddude · 08-10-2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Sigh,

Frankly, this post is non-sense and just a little research would have shown it, but I guess that's why it's in "Paranoia" instead of "Philosophy".

Just a few points:

-The Catholic Church doesn't demand you give up friends who aren't Catholic or marry Catholic. You DO have to promise to raise your kids Catholic.

-The Church officially recognizes evolution as the vehicle that God used to create man. It does NOT preach creationism.

-I don't recall ever being told as a youth I might have to sacrifice my life for the Catholic Church.

Anyway, I guess it's easy to spread lies and half truths. After all, that's how bigotry usually starts.

This rsponse suggests, at best, that not everyone's experience with the Catholic Church is the same. Historically, there have been periods of "liberalization" in the Church's official view. Pope John XXIII made a concerted effort to reach out to other Christian sects in an attempt to consolidate dogmas. Many Catholics raised in the late 1960's and 1970's recieved "Catholicism Lite" with no latin masses, folk songs in place of traditional hymns and a generally more "humanistic" view of religion.

During this period, the church allowed for the possibility that the account of creation in Genesis may be more metaphoric than literal, but only in that the timeline may have been condensed and that the "days" may in fact refer to decades, centuries or even millenia. The active hand of God was still insisted and the genetic eveolution of mankind from the same roots as the apes was still utterly rejected.

Pope John Paul II has been championing a return to biblical fundamentalism, with mixed success. His hard-line Catholicism is running against the grain of a generation of clergy raised under John XXIII and Paul VI. John Paul II survived in a Communist Poland where Catholics were called upon to, and did, sacrifice their very lives for their faith. He considers these people martyrs and saints, and calls upon all Catholics to be prepared to make the same sacrifices. The religious persecution of Catholics is still a fact of life outside of the Western Hemisphere and Europe.

For the record: I was born into a Catholic family and educated by the Sisters of Charity, the Christian Brothers (out of Chicago, IL), and Jesuit priests for 12 years. I spent 2 years at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit, MI. I got a look "behind the scenes" of the Catholic environment in the Detroit area, and came away disturbed and disillusioned.

Over the past 30 years, I've spent time with Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Baptists,, Unitarians, and the Assembly of God. Every congregation I've come to know has had an "us vs. them" mentality which, with one noteable exception, began with an extremely self-righteous pastor.

The exception was a Presbyterian minister with an extremely open mind and heart, that truly sought to help his congregation on many levels. He and I debated theology and dogma without prejudice or recrimination. The Presbytery shut his church down.

I am not spreading lies and half-truths. I am speaking of history, current events and personal experience. I honor your right to disagree with me based on your own expriences. I will not call you a liar simply because we disagree. The same courtesy would be appreciated.

Spritebox · 08-12-2003, 08:04 PM

The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge.

--Creationism vs. Evolution

StormBerlin · 08-30-2003, 08:14 PM

Sounds alot like the Mormon church too.... Some differences tho.

GakFace · 08-30-2003, 11:08 PM

I have a better one for you..

What do you define as "Cult"... because I looked it up, and found no negative connatations to it. So Please, define CULT.. so I can understand why you are even debating it.

And this thread really doesn't belong here.

present_future · 08-31-2003, 10:56 PM

A lot of the people i know do believe that catholicism is some kind of cult.
I've heard that when JFK was elected president (he was the first catholic) that people were scared that catholics around the US would get the swords from their basements and take over the country. (or something like that)

08-05-2003, 12:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
BentNotTwisted Optimistic Skeptic Location: Midway between a Beehive and Centennial	Catholicisim vs. Cultism I decided to post this here because I wanted to hear some critical thoughts regarding it and I didn't want to get flamed too badly by the Catholic's in the Philosophy board. Way back when the Branch Dividian folks were being subjugated by the FBI, one of the broadcast news channels put up a list of what to look for in a cult. Being raised Catholic I am most familiar with that religion and as soon as I saw the bulleted items my only thought was they all apply to Catholicism. I picked up the following list from: http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/cults.html after a quick search on google. My comments follow each w/ ** # The spiritual group claims to have received special instructions from one or more "messengers from the sky." Can you say Angels and Saints? # The spiritual group uses a special set of rules that you must obey or be cast out. Excommunication, nuff said. # The spiritual group promises eternal life in a paradise if you obey its set of rules, and threatens eternal suffering if you do not obey its set of rules. Heaven and Hell folks. # The spiritual group demands that you give up as much of your assests and your yearly income to it as possible. Give more, more, more # The members of the spiritual group call each other "brother" and "sister," even when they aren't related at all. Well, the clergy do this # The spiritual group is led by a group of enlightened masters who wear strange clothes and speak in esoteric parables. They used to do Latin masses and don't forget the pope's hat # The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge. Um, I'll have to work on this one # The spiritual group demands that you select your spouse and your closest friends from its membership. Always marry a Catholic, all others must convert # The spiritual group demands that you place your children in its training program. I don't know about other children of Catholic families, but I had to attend catechism classes. # The spiritual group teaches that giving up your life for the sake of the spiritual group may become necessary sometime in the future. ** Even Prez Bush use the word Crusade is his plan for terrorist retribution. Ok, so with one exception the cult warnings all fit. So, boys and girls. Is Catholicism a world wide cult? __________________ IS THAT IT ???!!! Do you even know what 'it' is? When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

08-05-2003, 02:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
TheKak Insane Location: Virginia	Yes, kill them all. __________________ Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

08-06-2003, 03:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
Jonsgirl Semi-Atomic Location: Home.	Amen Preach it, Brother MrSelfDesruct! __________________ Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you.

08-06-2003, 05:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
Same Guy Crazy Location: Hawaii	preach it brother grump! __________________ Thank you, come again.

08-07-2003, 04:59 AM	#11 (permalink)
fuzzix Psycho Location: Australia	Yep, definately a cult. Though significantly milder than some. __________________ I'm most definately not 'lovin' it'.

08-05-2003, 02:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Eviltree Psycho Location: British Columbia	it sure sounds like it. Who would've thought.......

08-05-2003, 09:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	cults are pretty much like religions (in theory; on paper) but the cult leader will try to get your money or personal belongings, as well as strip you of your personal rights, brain wash you... the simple answer is that in religions you are still an individual, in cults you are not!

08-05-2003, 10:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
Looften Crazy	There really is no difference between a cult and a religion, both are simply religious organizations. Even major religions are considered a cult by some. Islam in general has been given such a bad reputation that many ignorent "patriots" consider it a cult. However, the classifications of them is pureply subjective. You can't really make out a list such as that and consider it proof.

08-06-2003, 07:25 AM	#8 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	A cult becomes a religion when it gains respect.

08-08-2003, 09:01 AM	#13 (permalink)
BullHazzer Crazy Location: The land between the two rivers	Couldn't you also say that any religion that is not concurrent with your own beliefs and religion is a cult? I have long thought of Catholicism as a cult because their belief system is very divergent from the book they base their religion on. Many other cults in the past have taken the Bible and twisted it to say what they want, taking passages out of context or deleting / adding passages all together. Does the Catholic Church do that? (Shake your head yes) And, just because a religion becomes mainstream, gains respect, or gains political recognition, does not make it any less of a cult?

08-08-2003, 01:26 PM	#14 (permalink)
skysooner Registered User Location: Oklahoma	I think that any organization that claims to know all, etc. and doesn't allow you to think for yourself can be considered a cult. I know some churches that definitely can be considered that way as their members in no way, shape, or form are prepared to discuss differences in opinion in an intellecutal way. I hope my church isn't like that, but I know some hold opinions in there that might seem cultish (the difference is the rest of us laugh at them). Seriously, the Branch Davidians was just one in a long line of organizations where one man or woman claimed to speak for all. Sometimes the leaders rule by fear and intimidation. I'm glad I'm pretty strong-willed (and self-confident). I can see how some would fall under the sway of a strong person however. Look at the Jim Jones cult suicide.

08-08-2003, 01:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	It's glib, it's flip, but it's also true: The Difference between a religion and a cult is PR. A little more deeply, though (strangely, I was pondering this on the way home from work today), a religion is of a size that it provides it's primary function of obviating its member's alienation by inclusion in itself. A cult, on the other hand, obviates alienation by transferring the alienation of the individual member to the group as a whole, thus setting itself against society at large. Religions drive society (sad but true), cults do not. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

08-08-2003, 05:15 PM	#17 (permalink)
TheKak Insane Location: Virginia	You dont think Catholics are alienated from society? I mean just look at their leader. He has his own city, and his own bank. Hmmm....? __________________ Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

08-09-2003, 10:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
tehblaed Insane Location: land of the merry	# The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge. Can you say Creationism?

08-10-2003, 09:06 AM	#20 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Sigh, Frankly, this post is non-sense and just a little research would have shown it, but I guess that's why it's in "Paranoia" instead of "Philosophy". Just a few points: -The Catholic Church doesn't demand you give up friends who aren't Catholic or marry Catholic. You DO have to promise to raise your kids Catholic. -The Church officially recognizes evolution as the vehicle that God used to create man. It does NOT preach creationism. -I don't recall ever being told as a youth I might have to sacrifice my life for the Catholic Church. Anyway, I guess it's easy to spread lies and half truths. After all, that's how bigotry usually starts. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-30-2003, 08:14 PM	#23 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	Sounds alot like the Mormon church too.... Some differences tho. __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

08-12-2003, 08:04 PM	#22 (permalink)
Spritebox Insane Location: Charlotte, N.C.	The spiritual group demands that you accept its teachings without reservation, even when those teachings are in direct conflict with your understanding of basic scientific knowledge. --Creationism vs. Evolution __________________ it's all nice on ice alright and it's not day and it's not night but it's all nice on ice alright

08-30-2003, 11:08 PM	#24 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	I have a better one for you.. What do you define as "Cult"... because I looked it up, and found no negative connatations to it. So Please, define CULT.. so I can understand why you are even debating it. And this thread really doesn't belong here. __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

08-31-2003, 10:56 PM	#25 (permalink)
present_future Take my hand Location: Everywhere, but nowhere	A lot of the people i know do believe that catholicism is some kind of cult. I've heard that when JFK was elected president (he was the first catholic) that people were scared that catholics around the US would get the swords from their basements and take over the country. (or something like that) __________________ The only thing I'll ever ask of you... you gotta promise not to stop when I say when.