Alternates

[bagatelle]

I'm not sure how to exactly pose this question, because of the terminology. If there's a thread already, could you point me to it.

I've been to other forums and seen many accounts being banned, because they belong to same person. Usually it has happened, when someone is banned and they try to come back and explain.

I have no knowledge of what mods exactly can do, but I know they can trace accounts that have same IP, yet this can also be bypassed, so that staff can't always find out connections.

I would like to know, is there a possibility (or has it happened) that a person does these alternate accounts without knowing about it him/herself? In case of scitzophrenia or some kind of personality disorder?

[The_Jazz]

Well, there are two answers since there are two questions. The first is that yes, there have been folks that created two accounts without realizing it. That's almost always because there's a pretty significant amount of time between the two events. However, we've seen folks register while impaired, leave the page open, then come back the next day and reregister.

As far as multiple personalities? No, not that I know of - and that's something that I'd have probably heard about at one point or another.

Now, because we're in Paranoia, I'm going to send chills down the spines of any long-timers: Bones. The_Dude.

[Redlemon]

I still say that Air_45 was Bones.

[DaveOrion]

I'm sure people have multiple accounts or re-register after they've been banned but personally I've never seen the need. I've even known people who try desperately to change their posting style and reintegrate into some board; and others who are expert multiple account crackers. IMO both types have way to much time on their hands.

You'll always know its me when you see this....................or this (& instead of and) or anything in parenthesis or a general lack of proper syntax or sentence structure (done on purpose in honor of BG) or a "slight" disdain for authority figures.

Yea, I could change my IP & re-register & try and change my posting style & bla bla bla but ya know, fuck that. I am what I am.

[ASU2003]

Since this is in paranoia, do you keep track of all the IPs that I have used to log into this site, or just the most recent ones? I probably have a long list.

(I still think we need to have an Anonymous FreeNet type of Internet available. One with no rules, no power to give to some over others, and no tracking...)

[DaveOrion]

Originally Posted by ASU2003

(I still think we need to have an Anonymous FreeNet type of Internet available. One with no rules, no power to give to some over others, and no tracking...)

In a perfect world this might happen but this aint it and this will never happen here. The powers that be wouldnt stand for that & in all fairness they paid for the servers & bla bla bla so I suppose they're justified in they're very limited amount of power. (as limited & superficial as that may be)

[Zeraph]

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Well, there are two answers since there are two questions. The first is that yes, there have been folks that created two accounts without realizing it. That's almost always because there's a pretty significant amount of time between the two events. However, we've seen folks register while impaired, leave the page open, then come back the next day and reregister.

As far as multiple personalities? No, not that I know of - and that's something that I'd have probably heard about at one point or another.

Now, because we're in Paranoia, I'm going to send chills down the spines of any long-timers: Bones. The_Dude.

I remember Bones....always was curious why some petitioned for him to come back.

Anywho, multiple personality is extremely rare bagatelle. Since you asked, are you worried you have multiple personalities?

edit: as to the rest of the discussion, I'm not sure I've even been warned. Which is odd, since I don't hold back at all. And will give someone my full opinion if they need it. To me it seems quite hard to be banned from TFP. Most mods are quite lenient.

Oh, maybe off topic, not sure, but Plan9 used to have a different account. Never was sure why he changed.

---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

Originally Posted by ASU2003

(I still think we need to have an Anonymous FreeNet type of Internet available. One with no rules, no power to give to some over others, and no tracking...)

naw, why would we need that? I've said some outrageous stuff and never even gotten a warning. What are you so worried about?

[ASU2003]

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

In a perfect world this might happen but this aint it and this will never happen here. The powers that be wouldnt stand for that & in all fairness they paid for the servers & bla bla bla so I suppose they're justified in they're very limited amount of power. (as limited & superficial as that may be)

I wouldn't say never. I could imagine a world where the religious conservatives clamp down on the Internet, banning anyone they don't like. Trying to turn it into a 'safe' Disneyland 'for the children'...

The solution would be to have your wifi cards and routers be able to act in ad hoc mode at the same time with your neighbors, and then they can connect to their neighbors. Speed would be an issue, and it would have to be brain-dead easy to use. The really hard part would be getting people to be interested enough in antenna design to point directional antennas at their neighbors homes that are far away.

It is an interesting concept to think about, what would happen is Egypt or Libya happened here and the internet was shut down, would we be able to covertly use wifi or would 'the Feds' be looking for or blocking anything broadcasting in the 2.4Ghz range.

[bagatelle]

Zeraph, I'm not worried about having multiple personalities. Can I not ask about things regardless? ;-)

It may be rare, but I was wondering, if it could actually happen, that a person would create an alternate account to one and same forum he/she already is, without knowing it, and would possibly interact with him/herself? I know it sounds a bit silly, now that I say it out loud.

There are cases, when people actually make alternates (knowingly), and use them to boost their other forum "persona", if they aren't getting attention enough or support to their opinions.

These alternates could be detected by forum staff, if the member doesn't know how to hide it.

I really don't have much knowledge about mental illnesses, and if I'm correct, a skitzophrenic person does not know anything about the other personalities, he/she has. So, it could happen that he/she makes another account to a forum, he/she is already in? This would likely be stopped by staff, if alternate accounts aren't allowed - they usually aren't - but the forumer would be puzzled why he/she is disallowed to forums, right?

[Redlemon]

Originally Posted by Zeraph

I remember Bones....always was curious why some petitioned for him to come back.

He was funny, and pushed close to the edge. What we (or at least I) didn't see (until the end) was that he frequently pushed beyond the edge, and the moderators had to keep cleaning up after him.

Oh, maybe off topic, not sure, but Plan9 used to have a different account. Never was sure why he changed.

His previous username was "unique" on the internet, and therefore searchable by people who knew him outside of TFP. Many other users have changed their handles, none of whom I shall list here.

[DaveOrion]

Yea, Plan9 isnt using a different account, he just changed his screen name (as I did & many others). Ask a mod and they'll hook you up if you feel the need, no need to sign up with a different account.

Some simple modify their existing name (as I & others have) or change it completely, but I can still pick em out quite easily because of the their posting style (or lack thereof) so its not like its a big secret or anything, you would have to go to great lengths (or have a multiple personality disorder) in order to actually fool anyone.

[Zeraph]

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Yea, Plan9 isnt using a different account, he just changed his screen name (as I did & many others). Ask a mod and they'll hook you up if you feel the need, no need to sign up with a different account.

Some simple modify their existing name (as I & others have) or change it completely, but I can still pick em out quite easily because of the their posting style (or lack thereof) so its not like its a big secret or anything, you would have to go to great lengths (or have a multiple personality disorder) in order to actually fool anyone.

Ah, tempting. Since my screen name is properly Seraph. But I think I'll keep Zeraph. Too many people know me as that over the last 7 years.

[The_Jazz]

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Yea, Plan9 isnt using a different account, he just changed his screen name (as I did & many others). Ask a mod and they'll hook you up if you feel the need, no need to sign up with a different account.

Actually, ask an admin. We're the only ones with the ability to change names. Mods and supermods refer those requests to us anyway.

[Zeraph]

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Actually, ask an admin. We're the only ones with the ability to change names. Mods and supermods refer those requests to us anyway.

sorry your holiness

[MSD]

You're mixing up schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder/disassociative identity disorder. Under current diagnostic standards, I think the number of acknowledged multiple personality cases in history is still under 40, definitely under 50. In the past few revisions of the DSM, there's been serious talk of removing MPD/DID as a valid diagnosis because there's debate as to whether it even exists. There is a very small chance that a member here has suffered from amnesia and created a new account, but the possibility of someone having multiple personalities that interact with each other is effectively zero.

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Since this is in paranoia, do you keep track of all the IPs that I have used to log into this site, or just the most recent ones? I probably have a long list.

I ran a quick search and got almost two full pages of IPs associated with your account. The database keeps them from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Redlemon

He was funny, and pushed close to the edge. What we (or at least I) didn't see (until the end) was that he frequently pushed beyond the edge, and the moderators had to keep cleaning up after him.

There's a term ARTelevision coined when he was an admin, "Unreasonable expenditure of moderator resources." Even if someone isn't committing specifically bannable offenses, if we're spending weeks talking about what the hell to do about them or multiple mods are cleaning up after them, they're going to get the boot. A very easy way to achieve this is to not only make multiple people clean up after you, but ask other users to do stupid shit to annoy the staff in revenge for their grievous offense of asking you not to be such a colossal dickbag.

[Zeraph]

Hmm, maybe you should define, "cleaning up".

[ASU2003]

Originally Posted by MSD

I ran a quick search and got almost two full pages of IPs associated with your account. The database keeps them from the beginning.

This is why I stay paranoid whenever I'm on-line. There is too much hidden info collected by 'the gatekeepers' (ISPs, web servers, and governments)...

Then again, since I have never had an ISP account tying me to any of those IP addresses...

I wonder if at DEFCON they have classes and talks on how to remain truly anonymous on-line. Or they need to come up with a Linux live CD that would do the work for you.

[bagatelle]

Originally Posted by MSD

You're mixing up schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder/disassociative identity disorder. Under current diagnostic standards, I think the number of acknowledged multiple personality cases in history is still under 40, definitely under 50. In the past few revisions of the DSM, there's been serious talk of removing MPD/DID as a valid diagnosis because there's debate as to whether it even exists. There is a very small chance that a member here has suffered from amnesia and created a new account, but the possibility of someone having multiple personalities that interact with each other is effectively zero.

Thanks, I really don't know about these diagnosis. And I was not referring to this place alone.

So, you are saying it's practically impossible a person would create two enduring identities to the same forum, and not know about it.

The opposite is very common, accounts are created on purpose to fool others. It could become a nuisance to regular members, who can't view all the info, unless staff takes care of these cases.

It would have been kind of funny, if it were possible to witness scenario, where a person is so confused, he/she does not know, they are interacting with themselves. Opposed to a more likely scenario, where a single person creates alternate accounts to toy with someone, who thinks is talking to several individual people.

[genuinegirly]

For some reason when I saw the title of this thread, I thought that it would be about alternate dimensions and the different versions of each person that would be present in each reality. I'm kinda disappointed that it's not. :sigh:

Oh well. It's pretty much impossible to start an alternate account with the same IP address. The only exception we make is for known couples that are using the same computer.

[DaveOrion]

Originally Posted by ASU2003

I wonder if at DEFCON they have classes and talks on how to remain truly anonymous on-line. Or they need to come up with a Linux live CD that would do the work for you.

Dont know about DEFCON but this is best way I know of to truly be anonymous.

https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en

[dlish]

Originally Posted by bagatelle

Zeraph, I'm not worried about having multiple personalities. Can I not ask about things regardless? ;-)

It may be rare, but I was wondering, if it could actually happen, that a person would create an alternate account to one and same forum he/she already is, without knowing it, and would possibly interact with him/herself? I know it sounds a bit silly, now that I say it out loud.

There are cases, when people actually make alternates (knowingly), and use them to boost their other forum "persona", if they aren't getting attention enough or support to their opinions.

These alternates could be detected by forum staff, if the member doesn't know how to hide it.

I really don't have much knowledge about mental illnesses, and if I'm correct, a skitzophrenic person does not know anything about the other personalities, he/she has. So, it could happen that he/she makes another account to a forum, he/she is already in? This would likely be stopped by staff, if alternate accounts aren't allowed - they usually aren't - but the forumer would be puzzled why he/she is disallowed to forums, right?

we had one particular chap maybe a year or so ago who thought it would be fun to toy with the people of TFP. he set up an alternate account and decided to respond to his own thread. of course, we caught on and he got banned for a number of reasons, one being for paedophilic tendancies. it was all sorts of screwed-up.

usually if someone is banned, they still have a chance to contact the admins to discuss why they were banned. some do, others choose to ride in the TFP sunset

[Martian]

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

For some reason when I saw the title of this thread, I thought that it would be about alternate dimensions and the different versions of each person that would be present in each reality. I'm kinda disappointed that it's not. :sigh:

Oh well. It's pretty much impossible to start an alternate account with the same IP address. The only exception we make is for known couples that are using the same computer.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. I expect more of my paranoia threads.

Create that thread, miss Girly; I'll post in it.

[MSD]

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Dont know about DEFCON but this is best way I know of to truly be anonymous.

https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en

I'm trying to find the site that checks it, but combinations of settings and extensions produce unique identifiers for almost everyone's browser that can be identified by a server on the other side of a Tor circuit. There's also the possibility of interception of data by other computers inside the Tor circuit, there's a fair amount of credible evidence that Wikileaks got a bunch of documents by running Tor exit nodes and sniffing traffic exiting the relay circuits.

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Hmm, maybe you should define, "cleaning up".

Following a member around the forum deleting a constant stream of worthless posts and threads intended to be disruptive.

[ASU2003]

The problem with Tor is that there are 'exit' nodes if I remember correctly. And it is pretty slow.

A better way is if there was someway for your computer to know what data it wanted, but would also just randomly pass the packets on to different IP addresses. They also need to better encrypt the packets.

[DaveOrion]

Nuttins Perfect.......

Tor (anonymity network) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like all current low latency anonymity networks, Tor cannot and does not attempt to protect against monitoring of traffic at the boundaries of the Tor network, i.e., the traffic entering and exiting the network. While Tor does provide protection against traffic analysis, it cannot prevent traffic confirmation (also called end-to-end correlation).[22][23]

Steven J. Murdoch and George Danezis from University of Cambridge presented an article[24] at the 2005 IEEE Symposium on security and privacy on traffic-analysis techniques that allow adversaries with only a partial view of the network to infer which nodes are being used to relay the anonymous streams. These techniques greatly reduce the anonymity provided by Tor. Murdoch and Danezis have also shown that otherwise unrelated streams can be linked back to the same initiator. However, this attack fails to reveal the identity of the original user.[24] Murdoch has been working with - and has been funded by - Tor since 2006.

In September 2007, Dan Egerstad, a Swedish security consultant, revealed that he had intercepted usernames and passwords for a large number of email accounts by operating and monitoring Tor exit nodes.[25] As Tor does not, and by design cannot, encrypt the traffic between an exit node and the target server, any exit node is in a position to capture any traffic passing through it which does not use end-to-end encryption such as TLS. While this may or may not inherently violate the anonymity of the source if users mistake Tor's anonymity for end-to-end encryption they may be subject to additional risk of data interception by self-selected third parties.[26] (The operator of any network carrying unencrypted traffic, such as the operator of a wifi hotspot or corporate network, has the same ability to intercept traffic as a Tor exit operator. End-to-end encrypted connections should be used if such interception is a concern.) Even without end-to-end encryption, Tor provides confidentiality against these local observers which may be more likely to have interest in the traffic of users on their network than arbitrary Tor exit operators.

Nonetheless, Tor and the alternative network system JonDonym (JAP) are considered more resilient than alternatives such as VPNs. Were a local observer on an ISP or WLAN to attempt to analyze the size and timing of the encrypted data stream going through the VPN, TOR or JonDo system, the latter two would be harder to analyze as demonstrated by a 2009 study.[27]

Researchers from INRIA showed that Tor dissimulation technique in Bittorrent can be bypassed.[28]

[Ourcrazymodern?]

I'd be much happier if I'd been what I was accused of...