Zeitgeist..
 

So has anyone seen this film yet? it opens your eyes, to think and to me that is all it does.

but i thought i would throw it here for discussion.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/statement.htm

and

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

watch this.

and discuss. i never saw it but i will tonight..

Pretty much the only thing that can scare me

I've seen it. It's pretty damn good.

Wow. One of the best links Ive encounterd. Thanks for sharing. Powerful stuff there.

Has anyone fact-checked it?

Most of it. Especially the religious stuff.

Please excuse gram msp errors, normally I put posts through word and check them, but its late so on so on. . .

Not all of it. For myself the Federal Reserve, Constitution, and a subject that wasnt mentioned in this material nor will I bring up, are areas I have focused the most time on.

In my percpetion is it true, yes. Its fucked. The more I research the angrier I get. 1992 was the last year the 1040ez form instructions had the following statement on it "Annually thousands of Americans voluntarily pay their income taxes." I had to sell out and let alot of it go, and just be cattle. Thats a terrible bleak compromise isnt it. To give in to these parasites of humanity in order to live as peaceful of an existence as possible. To tune out what is happening, to develop a habitual belief that ignores that we are (people of Earth) all connected. If I dont do this I really feel that after so much time, day after day letting the truth consume me it would drive me to do something that would get me or those I care about killed.

So I conform, and hope the greedy bastards dont take this to Iran, and other injustices that are happening in that region are righted.

Remember when you get a job- you sign a legal document with the IRS stating you are going to pay them. So dont sign the document- right then you dont get the job.

A friend of mine owned a video store in San Diego years ago. He didnt charge his customers taxes on the movies or pay himself. This was primary because he was not able to find a specific law that stated this was mandated. I began to assit him to find the law, alot of hours going through state regualtions and law books at the library. You would think something such as this would be as easy to find as the Bill of Rights. I called the California State Board of Equalization the enitity that was harrassing him by mail. I asked agent after agent to just point me in the right direction to find the law that states a person had to sign up with them to run a business. I just couldnt believe that all I got was double talk and guidance to periodicals that were not law.

What was the result? The same as it was, is, and unless something beyond all of us steps in, always will be- he lost. While I was sitting in the store talking with him one night, 5 California State Board of Equalization agents and 1 US Marshall came in told me to get out. They handcuffed him and took him away. Take him to jail? No. They took him to the California State Board of Equilization office and forced him to sign up through threat tactics. He eventually lost his store. So the moral of the story. . .

The process is exactly as they put it in the other link. They even promote they maybe you shouldnt believe any of it, but research it. In that research pay attention to the sources your using. In my opinion, especailly on the internet- in these times of instant education; research of who put that site together, research of their sources, and their sources' sources. This should be as automatic as the sifting through the material of what brought you there in the first place.

great stuff! free bump, this should be a sticky, if not for just general information to others.

oh hi all. =)

cant find this on Wikipedia either, so someone should put it there and make it be known. I wont since i am a very bad informer. lol

who wants to take the initiative??

Thats nuts. That is also the title of the new smashing pumpkins album.

That was interesting, and it's scary because it's probably true. Too bad congress, the FBI, media, or who ever will never be able to research these things and make the public aware of it.

I feel very small now.

And angry.

Excellent link, Ustwo. I suspected you'd like the first part of the film.

My friends are posting this on social networking sites so often. I definitely believe parts 2 and 3, but i have a feeling that maybe all the people/legends mentioned in part 1 are actually just one thing? maybe im proven wrong by carbon dating though

It's an interesting compililation.

It blew me away. I feel cheated, angry and taken for a fool. I hunger for revenge but don't know what to do! Guns? Revolution? Watch more porn?

So would you really base a revolution off of a youtube video?

If the revolution involves watching more porn, then you bet your ass I would!

Does it really matter what starts a revolution, so long as it's just?

Are we talking about a basis or a catalyst?

i aggree if you feel that way about something then by all means, start something up.

as long as you believe in it. and feel that it's the right thing to do.

where to start ? hmmm..

Now that I could get behind.

Just, batshit insane propaganda, whatever.

so you say........(ali g voice.)

*Yawn*, so I guess you believe that god exists now? Or are you going to ignore half the film? Did you even watch it?

TFP noticed this film and watched, and yet somehow the zeitgeist on TFP is to hate Ron Paul? I think that in itself blows me away just as much as the film itself.

Look at this article (state of the union): http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/state_of_union
And watch this video (David Rockefeller fears Ron Paul): NOT ONE OF THE GREAT ISSUES?!?!?! GWB is proposing a plan to fix the economy! The Fed cut interests by 3/4 of a point! Who is Rockefeller kidding?! (btw, 150bil is *nothing* compared to the 555bil GWB pushed for a few months back to spend in Iraq... GWB is such a joke)
There are just way too many signs that show how real all of this is; how can the TFP still be ignoring it? I'm sorry but I'm feeling more and more desperate every day, and I don't know what to do.
Ron Paul is being shut out of the media completely now, even though he is still one of the top 5 candidates. I had to vent somewhere.
Oh yeah, and you can't fix rampant inflation with even more rampant inflation--all that does is delay the inevitable.

World Zeitgeist Day. Find a location and watch with friends. Or you can host a viewing (as my healing center is doing) and open it to the public.

MARCH 15th 2008

more info on the website: www.zietgeistmovie.com

People should be made aware of this stuff...I hope everyone will share it.

now that I have watched this movie back when i did, i have come to see everyday that what is shown in this movie, is what happens in everyday stuff. should I say, I see it on TV and how the TV tries to mess with your head just for their "agenda".

It is as if no one cares in this place.

I hate to see this everyday and hate to see that this movie is making more sense each day but it actually is.

sad really.

It is as if no one believes in this place.

There are a few of course, but don't confuse skepticism about propaganda on Youtube with caring.

I believe there are people out there. Very hard to find, but then again I am not really looking for them. I always tend to look at the negative things.

also I didn't only mean youtube, but IRL also. I see it with co-workers, and people in the malls. People driving.

maybe I am thinking too much into it I guess.

This movie from what i understand is mostly true and very very scarey. Its a throw back to the old quote

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."

That's crazy that I randomly click this thread, and read a poem I just recently wrote an essay about...

You people who believe this should be used as a study in the effectiveness of propaganda.

Its not only a tool of governments.

I'm not gonna watch it because i don't want to end up on some list. I will, however, assume that it mentions the secret cabal of jewish businessmen who actually run things.

I know you dont believe in remote viewing, so you are of the belief that there is no way to tell the future. However, Im sure you can take a creative guess.
I think I read that you state you were an atheist, so you dont believe a God is going to come clean up any mess that humanity creates for itself.

Having said all that in studying history, observing your preception of the present, and making as good of an educated guess as possible- do you think thing are going to turn out OK? Are we going to end up in a Star Trek society? A world where Mecca has been destroyed and our Republic form of government spread across the land? Ive also read you have children, so I would conclude you do care about the state of Earth in the future.

Suppose you are correct (which really wouldnt be bad thing) and our government is exactly what you promote as being, what do you think our world looks like in 20 years?

*SIGH* the movie is basically like every politician I've ever known

It makes an awful lot of statements it reports as fact, tries to pass off everyone who doesn't believe that fact as crazy or ignorant, then when you try to investigate the facts you find it leads to self serving evidence, non peer-reviewed journals, and other dubious sources and claims makers.

When I find myself agreeing with Ustwo over stuff like this it reinforces that your personal politics have nothing to do with your ability to think critically. The burden of proof rests with the claimant. To quote Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." Quite frankly, Zeitgeist is found wanting. The vast majority is mere scare tactic, mixed with flashy montages and a dash of plagiarism.

People in this thread claim the movie is true, that the evidence backs it up. I ask you, did you do more research than simply going to the web site's Sources page? Just check out some of the books he cites as his sources for the first part alone. Then realize to yourself, anyone with any view can write a book about anything without any sources and get it published if they know the right people or have enough money. There's a reason this stuff isn't in Academia. Oh right, scientific and academic peer-reviewed journals must be in on the conspiracy. How silly of me.

/goes to put on his tinfoil hat to protect my brainwaves from the tremors caused by so much gullibility

Meh, believe it if you want to, or choose not to. But Ustwo why even bother going into a thread if all you have to do is trash talk?

True or not it is interesting.

Pretty much because even though this is the paranoia forum, and crackpot shit that wouldn't fly on the rest of the forum is allowed, it doesn't mean that someone shouldn't swoop in and counterpoint.

Yes, it's interesting and entertaining... as a work of fiction. Once it starts reporting fact it steps into a whole new world that holds its claims to a higher standard.

Because merely posting something doesn't automatically give it value. Seriously, people should be have some insight before watching this sort of thing because it was produced to be extremely persuasive and if you don't know that it's all built on insinuation, faulty logic, and lies it can result in ignorance, insufferability, and severe annoyance to people who actually think. I think we can all get behind Ustwo's fight against what I like to call, 'The Axis of Irritation'.

Its production values are a little heavy-handed, and its claims often sensational... but much of Zeitgeist's material is corroborated elsewhere. The Hero of a Thousand Faces comprises much of its inspiration regarding Jesus, and that text is pretty well vetted, if dated by its reliance on Freudian analysis.

Then there's From Freedom to Fascism, a documentary you can find on Google, as well as Century of the Self and an interesting presentation on the drug war and 9/11 given by Michael Ruppert a few years back, at Portland State University.

I don't recommend watching any of those videos if you need a good night's sleep.

When you say "it" are you refering to this movie specifically, or anything in general?

A friend of mine just watched this movie and started to have anxiety attacks and hasn't slept in 3 days. Do i just lie to them and tell them its all bullshit when I think truth comes from seeing as many points of view as possible and interpreting yourself. I believe truth stems from your own conclusions so I almost feel obligated to let her ride all this mental instability out but I also feel obligated to return my friend to a normal state of mind. If I was to denouse this movie how do i begin, All you Zeitgeist Haters out there lets hear some of our ideas on why its all bullshit, (Besides what the media says and because it goes against what we're told hundreds of times a day) Show me some solid flaws in the logic and I'll try to forward those to my friend and restore her sanity.

Actually, Judaism/Christianity/Islam did of course borrow from older myths. Even theologians admit that.

What part exactly? The 1st (religion), 2nd (WTC), 3rd (Federal Reserve, etc) or all three?

The issue I have seen and encountered a lot is people having problems with the first part. Even if they believe the whole government corruption thing, they are worshipping Christians, so its hard to discuss anything beyond that with them.

The problem I always have when debating them is they always use the Bible to defend itself. The primary thing I ask them to do is set aside what is mentioned in this film initially. Research an unbiased history if the Bible and its process of how it became what it is today. Who's hands it went through at a time when only a few could read and write, who they were, what and how they edited. I am a former Christian, I have traveled and seen to what I thought was the birthplace of Jesus, his tomb, and other sites of interest.

After years of extensive research both history from various sources and general interest in quantum physics, the "holy house of cards" fell apart. I truly do see it (at least in a general sense as the film puts it) about a means of control. Infact, beyond that when I see a large portion of actions being played out today; its almost as the grand prophecy (the generally accepted version of it) is going to be fulfilled one way or the other. It really doesn’t seem to matter if the Bible had as much reality to it as The Odyssey written by Homer- because the powers that be are going to make it happen.

I also came to the realization that without having a spiritual belief that a Supreme Being is going to come and wipe the mess humanity has created clean, and make all the bad things go away; a lot of people would have anxiety. God answers the questions we don’t know (what was before singularity), having a devil takes accountability away and lets people know that there is going to be a happy ending through all this madness. Its not a pleasant mindset to think that our journey would possibly end when we die. Even worse that people could act in any greedy way they chose without suffering any consequences.

I don’t consider myself an atheist, but more of agnostic. I don’t think science has the answer for everything. When I see stars being born in the Eagle Nebula from nothing, I understand why the brightest minds have never cracked what was here before it all began, how, and why. I don’t think they ever will. That is God to me. Given the size the known universe that we can see visually (what we see with Hubble) I cant help but think how arrogant it is of humanity to think that there is anything that us simple carbon based organisms could do that would offend a supreme creator (if there is one). We would honor a grand creator by using the tools we were born with, clean up our own act, stop warring in the name of my God is bigger than your God, and evolve socially as fast we are technically.

I was really pissed off when I was told there was no Santa Clause. I was even more pissed when I researched it and found it to be reasonably true. I'm certainly not any happier knowing that Santa doesn’t exist.

My friend is in a psych ward right now, I showed her that movie. I feel like a total shit bag and can't fall asleep at 3-30am when i have work at 8am. :( I don't even really know what happened but i was trying to get a hold of her all night and eventually found out her dad checked her into a psych ward. That movie is fucked up. It teaches you keep your nose down and get yours before somebody else does.

How did you interpret that? I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Are you certain it was the movie and not something else going on? Perhaps depression already there and the movie maybe accented it. I dont see it any more depressing than turning on the news on any given day.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with this movie, speaking hypothetically: are you one that would take the red pill or the blue?

sounds like your friend has issues. Not saying that to be rude but this forum is full of people who watched the movie and we're not in a psych ward.

I don't think you can blame the movie though.

by the way, your signature from fight club, it's another anti establishment movie in a way. Now THAT guy was crazy :p

I'm the type of person who wants to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

But my friend is under alot of stress too from school and work and expecially from her mother (she has mommy issues) but the movie was part of the catalyst it wasn't the only factor.

I don't believe you at all.

Perhaps you could try not lying the next time you want to inspire discussion.

believe what you want, but my friend watched that movie and ended up in a psych ward 4 days later. I'm almost positive it was some kind of a factor. I watched the movie with her and one of our other friends watched it and neither of us are in a psych ward. I know dozens of my friends who have seen it and not ended up in a psych ward but that doesn't detract from the fact that it was part of the catalyst that sent my friend into the hospital. I also do not appreciate you insinuating that i'm a liar, its unfair and without insight. So if you feel the need make unfounded accusations do it in a different forum becuase i like this one.

..............

It doesn't take much land oneself in the psych ward. Why is this so hard to believe? Not that it matters much to the wider public.

There is some good discussion of this movie, and everything else you ever wanted to know about conspiracies at Above Top Secret.

Zeitgeist and it's like contain some interesting ideas, but its real value is in doing today what Bill Hicks did for a small segment of the UK population (*waves*) and a tiny segment of the US population 15 years ago.

It IS ok to ask "WHY?" and keep asking it until you get an answer. A real answer.

There is a reason why our language describes those who become engaged in politics or activism as undergoing an "awakening". You can work that out for yourself.

I was going to go through a whole list of stuff that troubles me about the world and what we can do about it, but I don't think anyone really wants to hear about that.

What I will do is put up a load of link to other videos that discuss the same ideas about the current state of the world and how we got here, and recommend that anyone interested in shaking themselves out of their slumber reads.

If only one author: George Orwell. Only one book? No. Two. 1984 and Animal Farm. Multiple times.

Adam Curtis Documentaries:

The Century Of The Self:





The Trap:



Part 3 - We will force you to be free

Noam Chomsky:

Manufacturing Consent

Lots of Chomsky videos, I don't think you can ever call the man less than interesting

Jon Ronson Documentaries (Semi-humorous in origin, but not always how it works out):


Secret Rulers Of The World - David Icke, The Lizards and The Jews

The Crazy Rulers Of The World - The Men Who Stare At Goats - First of 3, you can follow them through...

Others:

Why We Fight


The Revolution Will Not Be Televised - Documentary surrounding the failed coup in Venezuela a few years ago.

And of course, all this is just a start - but a good one in my opinion.

DISCLAIMER: Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

Whoa! That's a great list of links! Thanks!

ooh ooh ooh, don't forget The Power of Nightmares - part 1, you can follow them through on google video.

and the book Farenheit 451

I hope you don't mind, but I HAD TO lift that quote for my signature!!!

Thanks for the links, I'll get right on them.

Some things, and 'your own good common sense' clash from time to time.

The problem with using ones own good common sense is quite a few people don't have any.

Everyone has common sense, quite a few just choose not to use it. Or some say that those who don't believe what they believe have no common sense because their beliefs clash.

Ustwo, I'm am dreadfully sorry that your capacity to believe in magic has been amputated. You are so left-brained, your head must tilt awkwardly. Perhaps that is what attracted you to the Tilted Forum Project!!! :lol:
I am a fairly logical woman, but I find life to be much more fun and fulfilling when I let go of the narrow-minded view of the world. In a way, it allows me to experience the joy and freedom I had when I was a child.
I wish the same for you. Unclamp that sphinctor, Sweetie!! :icare:

Ustwo: I would suggest that this is where "experience" comes into play... but if you claim that both your experience and common sense are adulterated to the point of being unable to trust either - experience including your life history, education, beliefs, etc, I won't argue. How could I?

RE: Icke.

I do not believe that there are races of shape shifting lizards who perform blood rituals ruling the planet. If you watched that program, you'd see its point is a long way from pushing this view of the world.

I am quite happy to be "left brained" its served me quite well in life and keeps me from being suckered easily.

There is a difference between experiencing the joy of a child and being childish. If you were to meet me personally you would never connect your vision of me from TFP with the 'real' me. I won't get into specifics just because in some ways I'm so uninhibited it would easily identify me and I enjoy being able to speak freely here.

But that doesn't mean I have to think someone who thinks he got a message from the spirit world is anything besides a egotistical loony for thinking outside forces guided him to play soccer so he could become the chosen one.

There is plenty of real magic out there in life, and it doesn't require turning off your logic pathways to enjoy it.

I really like this. This is what I try and convince people of all the time. It's my turn now to say... I agree with Ustwo.

Are you Robin Williams? Be honest.

No! Steve Martin!!!
He's a Wild and Crazy Guy!!!!!
:lol:

You're not a true TFP member until you look at yourself and say, "What the fuck? I just agreed with Ustwo." If you usually side with him, then it's when you agree with willravel.

I think the CBC put it best.

"Zeitgeist would be great, if it weren't bullshit!" :)

Most of it is less than likely, to be kind... but it's a different perspective, even if untrue, and shaking people into questioning the verities that surround them is always a good thing.

*puts visor back over eyes, goes shopping to feel better*

Zeitgeist doesn't depress me, or make me angry, or make me feel any smaller. I have already come to the realization that I'm a small, insignificant object in the universe. And I was a conspiracy theorist before I saw Zeitgeist.

For some reason, it empowers me. Opening my mind to new information towards the truth, and not authority, inspires me. I know my existence won't change this universe completely. But I know that if I can look for the truth and see it being spread, it gives me hope.

Questioning is good.

Lying is bad.

When you look at the number of people who buy this stuff hook line and sinker its not longer about questioning and searches for the truth, its just simple propaganda.

For a counter-argument, I won't bother to restate it, you can simply read it here.
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

I just read a huge chunk of several of his pages, including some 9/11 stuff. He does a worse job explaining things than the conspiracy people do. His 9/11 stuff just kinda sounded like a rant.

The problem comes when you believe, and I put myself in this category, that you are surrounded by media that are, to be kind to them, utterly incompetent when it comes to portraying reality to the masses. Really, I'm with Chomsky on this... they're unconscious agents of population control, for the most part.

When you have a media you cannot trust, then maybe it takes wild, inaccurate propaganda to shake 'normal' people into... Maybe it takes more than that.

I lost a Nebraskan liberal arts major last night... no great loss.

maybe though... maybe he was abducted by international freemasonry! ;)

Edit/Update: Turns out he just made his way directly from one bar to a train and a 4 hour journey to another city. Rum is not his drink.

As a former Nebraska liberal arts major, I blame our natural curiosity & explorer's spirit. The rum just helps coax that out.

I think Zeitgeist is both good and bad. On one hand, it forces the viewer to stop and think about the truth of things. Unfortunately, and on the other hand, most people will take it for its word, and not do anymore research. Luckily, I've found that enough of Zeitgeist is grounded in truth that it makes for a good starting point for the encouragement of free thought and, given that the person has some amount of common sense, it should propel them into actual enlightenment. I suppose what I'm getting at is that, speaking from an almost militant Atheist point of view, it makes for a quick solution to the problem of religious nutjob friends.

It's sort of like an upper that needs a downer to balance it out. If you don't give the friend a downer (which, sadly, probably means burdening their minds with text) after the upper, then it's going to be too much and they'll turn into a conspiracy theory nutjob, which would suck.

Having said that, I have to at least halfway agree with Ustwo. It would be much better if the video were to only give truths. I'm not entirely sure why, but it seems no side is completely truthful, as they are a lot like opposing political parties, which of course demand propaganda. Further, while there are sects of each "party" that do for the most part give truthful accounts, they are just not exciting enough to be widely acknowledged by the opponents.

For example, for my party, the Atheists, we have the fantastic spokesmen Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and the more mean-spirited Christopher Hitchens. Now, if you've ever attempted to read their material, it's not necessarily the most exciting prose out there (specifically the work of Dennett), and when it is exciting (Hitchens) it just comes off as rude and volatile. As such, while we may think their opinions are the best of the best, our opponents will call them out as boring nonsense and angry rants. So, something has to act as quick convergence before deploying the much more truthful, less radical works to even them out.

I'm sure this sounds completely robotic or devious or whatever, but that's how I see it as working. It's all a very convoluted game.

I've found that enough of Zeitgeist is grounded in truth that it makes for a good starting point for the encouragement of free thought and, given that the person has some amount of common sense, it should propel them into actual enlightenment.

But this is what makes it propaganda of the classic kind. A lie surrounded by truth. If everything was a lie it would be easily shot down, but instead give enough truth that they buy the lie.

For example, for my party, the Atheists, we have the fantastic spokesmen Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and the more mean-spirited Christopher Hitchens. Now, if you've ever attempted to read their material, it's not necessarily the most exciting prose out there (specifically the work of Dennett), and when it is exciting (Hitchens) it just comes off as rude and volatile. As such, while we may think their opinions are the best of the best, our opponents will call them out as boring nonsense and angry rants. So, something has to act as quick convergence before deploying the much more truthful, less radical works to even them out.

I've been an atheist long before it was cool, and the only atheists you heard about was that wacky American Atheists League or whatever they were called. You are right that the style of many of the vocal atheists is a turn off for those who don't already have atheist leanings, but thats a different issue from something like the Zeitgeist. You won't 'convert' anyone to atheism by making them look stupid, but it doesn't make the message any less true, its just done in a confrontational way that conflicts with peoples egos. On the other hand the Zeitgeist tries to guide you to erroneous conclusions, and in my opinion assumes you are gullible enough to buy it all.

I'd just like to point out real quick that I don't like Zeitgeist. Having said that, I still can't help but think that, as a last possible resort (which I confess makes this sound more important than it is) it works. I say this out of experience rather than personal philosophy or the like. Sure, I have to correct my friends who see the film after they've resigned to that particular state of mind, but the point still gets through--and they acknowledge this--that they need to question more than they used to, and that (and this to me is the most important part to me) Christianity and the other religions out there just don't work. Does this make Zeitgeist a good thing? No, but I don't think it hurts as much as it helps.

Also, to go off on a brief tangent, was that "atheist long before it was cool" bit a back-handed comment? I'm just curious, because pulling the age card seems like a dip in your otherwise intelligent post.

EDIT: Actually, never mind. I kind of misunderstood the comment.

three questions for you Ustwo.
1. Have you read the 9/11 commision report
2. If yes to 1, Did you notice this frequents and often massive missing peices of their story?
3. This doesn't make you wonder what our government is hiding?

I'll answer, too

1: Yes
2: Yes
3: I believe that important things were overlooked and left out for various reasons, and that the main purpose of any coverup surrounding the attacks is intended to conceal the incompetence and poorly-thought-out policies that allowed members of, or persons somehow affiliated with, al-qaeda, to hijack commercial airliners and use them to carry out attacks. While there is always a possibility that individuals may have been able to aid and abet those who carried out attacks by suppressing information within intelligence services, I see no reason to believe that the attacks were carried out by anyone other than religious extremists.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have been done by religious extremists, but I think what I need to know is, would it have been possible to blame a different group for the attacks right from the beginning? Let's say that a few hours after the attacks, the government/press would have said it was the North Koreans, would we have believed them? What if there were a few Asian-looking guys on the planes? Or the planes with the 'right' Asian guys would have been used. Would the government been able to fake enough evidence to get people to trust them? That is my concern. The government just hasn't proven their case enough yet, and I'm not sure they can. The media didn't do their job of questioning and investigating however.

http://www.mtv.com/shared/promoimage...re/281x211.jpg

wanted for questioning?

We have at least a few known Islamic extremists on camera in the airports that morning, and the MO of suicide attacks is consistent with al Qaeda and affiliated groups. North Korea, for example, has a history of shooting first and shouting like a bratty kid later. I agree that things like finding Atta's passport are very unlikely, but I'm more accepting of a coincidence like that than something that requires me to contradict what logic and my eyes tell me happened.

Power of Nightmares

^^^Better link

people in caves. People in caves. Do you think people in caves organized the most elaborate attack against american in our history. PEOPLE IN CAVES!?!?!

So you were there for the planning?

Seriously I know its not your intention but all you seem to be here is a racist, stupid arabs can't do anything, they live in caves riding camels!

I'm just saying if you lived in a cave would you have access to the technology needed to organize this kind of an attack?

Do you really think they were living in caves, cut off from the outside world prior to 9/11?

I don't know what i think about 9/11 except that the official story doesnt add up. Osama bin Laden is probably living comfortably somewhere in the US under an assumed name and the CIA probably knows it.

I think I love Ustwo.

I really enjoyed this Film, thanks for the link. It had a lot of parallels with my own view points. I would like to research some of the other Gods listed in the film to cross check the statements they made in the film.

I was planning on the same thing so please share what you find out. It will save me the trouble!!

What technology? Box cutters and a big pile of cash to send people to flight school? Sounds like it's well within their means.

Wow, that was actually good, and probably correct. Almost 100% true on the religious part, and seemed fairly accurate on the rest (though it's always hard to say for sure). Though just because jesus/the bible is a fairytale doesn't mean god doesn't exist.

BUMP. [Sorry if this becomes repetitive or redundant]

I don't subscribe to inherently restrictive social conclusions and I’ve done so for a while now. There is a consistency of ignorance and backwards thinking in preconceived ideologies that too many people adhere to in society. Things like faith masked as fact.

The greatest issue for me in this movement is where to start because it's a paradox. To defeat establishment we must first destroy preconception and out-dated ideas. But, to defeat this preconceived social movement people need to witness the failure of establishment.
The longer I think about this the more frustrated I get with a (created term) "self-sustaining dependence". We've created a mechanism that runs without our help anymore but also works to restrict and oppose us. One so big that forces indifference in the face of opposing it because it seems unstoppable, and thus we give up.

Beginning with the seemingly endless downward nature of capitalism in a central banking system, to the adherence of social acceptance (ie: every man has a right to build a life on personal belief, not commonly held beliefs), we are held in check by the nature of the beast. By individualizing ourselves, we further ourselves from social evolution; we collectively "agree" in small groups instead of adhering to recognized fact. Those small groups work against progress by competing with each other. There is a common misconception in capitalism, but held socially by most "civilized nations", that competition breeds growth. But that isn't so; it restricts growth. It is a contradiction. It becomes a practice of becoming all-powerful, and then having the power to create mass technological and critical growth within society and thought. But the system which advocates monopolies breeds further competition, meaning there is a constant cycle of ebb and flow. This is true of social and human behavior on a political, philosophical, and ideological plane as well.

As belief is ever changing, since it is completely subjective, we are in a constant state of static social existence. Religion grows and lessens. A new one begins and an old one becomes obsolete. But the principal of religion stays the same: a social institution that revolves around "faith" in the unproven and indefinable and, therefore cannot be debated or defeated with critical or factual thought. But religion itself isn't the problem; it's that society revolves around a religion-like respect for all personal belief, no matter how ridiculous. A man can believe that his cat is God and we are taught to be indifferent to it.

Perhaps we shouldn't begin with the mammoth that is "establishment". Perhaps toppling the centralized banking of Western nations is a little out of grasp now. Maybe blowing up religious relics and assassinating political figures creates a moment of freedom (which is relative) but it's short lived as they are instantly revived, replaced, and strengthened. I say we start with something else: adherence to education. To critical thought. I refuse to accept this idea as elitist because that implies that education and growth aren't necessary and THAT is ridiculous.

Let's start a movement that doesn't instantly consist of falling off the grid, becoming instantly self sufficient, or "defeating the powers that be". Let's start one that consists of an adherence to fact. To thought. Not belief or uneducated opinion. Not a right to "believe whatever you want". Let's solidify by committing to becoming smarter, and recognizing that there is never going to be a time when someone is truly "smart" as knowledge is an evolution as we discover. Therefore we are adhering to consist growth rather then that of constant restriction and, therefore, fruitless debate.

I admit I know very little. But by making that the only thing I adhere to, that means I am completely open to all experiences and fact. Not a static school of thought that refuses outside interference like religion or politics or any institution created by man to define and separate completely through personal belief. One that recognizes the inevitable change and, instead of defending ourselves against it with rhetoric or sophist behavior, allows us to free ourselves from restriction.

We have the capability but no will. We have the technology but do not use it. We have the ideas but no forum. That begins by refusing to acknowledge faulty ideologies as acceptable. It will hurt, but identity is completely relative and is not static. We look at the Egyptian myths as absurd but all religious beliefs adhere to the same principals. Just like the technology of my grand father is now irrelevant for the most part. Let's stop creating answers and start discovering them, or, at the least, allowing those that have already been discovered to create an environment of forward movement and change. Let's let go of belief as a means of sustainability and adhere to fact.

Because will within belief does nothing; it changes nothing. It creates a static and friction based system that moves no where and encourages the status quo. My ability to obsess over God's will, or political will, or whatever, doesn't change anything in the world around me but my own perception. It's internal. It's personal. It can't create an environment for the betterment of humanity. It is a selfish and ignorant system in which have an "answer" - no matter how improbable and false it is - when you need one. It's lazy.

Personal belief is dangerous. Not in its intended form, but in it's current, bastardized form. The one that governs us as a species, that divides and creates individualists; a series sub-species of human beings based on self-created philosophy and self-generated systems of belief. Stuff we, individually, commonly hold true. Stuff we don't challenge because we are allowed to "love ourselves and no one has the right to separate me from my beliefs". Believing something has a place in your personal life but in the public life it DOES NOT. The laws and regulations set forth by man must better mankind, not a man alone. Otherwise the system will constantly be at war with itself because, as I stated before, belief is subjective and therefore static. Ideas can change but the principal behind them remain the same. Let that go.

When I discuss living through experience and not commonly held beliefs people raise their eyebrow: "so you don't hate rapists huh? So you think that nothing exists outside of what you know; so Paris doesn't exist since you've never been there! That's stupid!" But we are discussing two different things: fact and belief. Of course I believe rape is wrong. Of course I assume Paris is there. But if someone were to ask me to prove the existence of Paris, it would be bullshit. I can't prove it short of flying there. If someone told me rape was grand I couldn't tell this person they were wrong and punish them because what I believe is purely based on assumptions. Of course I don't hate something I've never experienced. Of course something doesn't exist to me if I've never seen it. And for someone who has ever had a fear, and then faced it, it is ALWAYS different: perhaps not better or worse an experience, but always different. Sex, getting shot, skating, owning a pet. The experience is the always the REALITY, while the assumption is the MYTH of it. Like getting shot with a paint ball hurting, until you get hit and it's painful, but only in a way that can be realized through being shot with one. And the experiences I used are absurdly polar, but the same principals apply to the small things people adhere to everyday, without questioning or thinking about why. And yet, people will defend those thoughtless, unquestioned beliefs as if they are fact. In the face of facts, proven facts, things that have been PROVEN, these people will still refuse to accept.

We must not adhere to personal truth anymore as a viable truth. A society in which everyone stands alone is no society at all, for a society is a collective; an amalgamation of humanity. A social movement cannot consist of a single voice, and yet that is how we live. Each man is his own keeper. But that’s bullshit; we live in a governed society that goes unwatched and we’ve grown tired of simply because we spend our lives battling with our own personal truths. It’s as if people are still battling with the idea of politics which is sad. There needs to be a separation of personal agenda and macro-growth. There needs to be discussions based on things we’ve learned and seen throughout our lives, and not on commonly held beliefs or taught behavior. Hearing my parents tell me something my whole life does not make it true. They simply happen to be their beliefs but that doesn’t mean I have to adhere to them.

I guess what I’m saying is that my life has not been lived before me, even though collectively the human race have experienced EVERY situation I have in my 23 years on earth; at least in a similar fashion. Life, itself, implies living; not an adherence to the IDEAS of living. That is what truly makes us individuals, and at the same time, instantly the same. That we all live, and that life is for living. That experience is personal, but because the world does not CHANGE because we think things about it, all experiences come from the same things. That is where fact is found; in that never ending sameness of the things independent of our personal will. A world of truth outside of personal truth. It exists and it HAS to be the thing that dictates our society. I may believe something about those truths, and I can create a personal life in which I adhere to these as an individual, but I don’t have the right to live publically, within the community I live in, based on those personal truths. They CANNOT take the place of truth because when they do, we live in a world that is unstable. We cannot base our society around things that can be debated because debate means it is undecided. It means it is opinion, and opinion is not a foundation but a flourish; something we put inside the house built out of facts, not things we think should be facts.

Educate yourself. Never stop doing so. Examine and apply while realizing you will never reach a point of complete understanding. There will never be an end point and the minute you allow yourself to believe that is the minute you adhere to Myths and not truths. You have the right to believe but not to enforce. To practice personally but not make public. To have pride but realize that those around you will never share the exact sentiment. To realize that being alone in your beliefs is a privilege and not a loss because a war of principles is a never-ending war. Respect must come in the form of allowing those around us to have a personal life without allowing it to leak into the public area. Debate is healthy but in the form of finding conclusions, not striving to defeat the opposition. We cannot survive it. We are not surviving it.

This film was fantastic. Not so much for the loony content, but the style defines the conspiracy genre. It is a parody of the tactics of the mainstream media and of how ideas can be spun, fallacies stated in a convincing way to music and at a fast pace. It is the modern version of farce. This genre has inspired me greatly.

As an atheist myself, I could not help but be intrigued by the religion section in this film. After watching, I wanted to look deeper into the information stated, but have yet to find the time. If anyone has done any research into part I of this film (comparisons of Gods/religion/etc) please let me know.

As for the government, economy, etc., I could not help but believe what I heard. The facts given seemed believable and I have no choice but stand by it. I myself believe in the existence of NWO, and individually believe that presidential elections are rigged, to fulfill that wanted by those 'behind the curtain'. At this moment in time, I believe President Obama is simply a puppet, one of many distractions used to occupy the public. Along with distracting the 'people', terrorism has grown in occurrence, and any well-being human can agree that it is everywhere. I believe 9/11 and other 'terrorist attacks' are a way of occupying the public into scaring them, leaving them no where to go but 'into the arms' of the government. Scaring the public is the simplist way to gain 100% control.

I emphasize that this is what I believe, and I am not insulting nor pressuring my beliefs.