Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Interests > Tilted Music


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-04-2006, 11:07 AM   #1 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Location: Colorado
Where did the great composers go?

I was speaking with my father the other day and the subject of 20th century composers came up. He noted that most of the well known classical musical composers of the 20th century were born in the late 1800's. This led us to discuss where the musical talent that would have written great classical music went. He contends that the talent simply went away as people stopped demanding it as new muscial styles came into popularity. I'm thinking that it merely got channeled into other forms of music. What do you think and who do you think the great composers or artists of the second half of the 20th century are?
__________________
"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." -George Bernard Shaw
Sgoilear is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 11:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
I tend to agree that the talent was simply channelled into other forms of music.

As for great composers from the late 20th Century... most of my taste falls to pop culture. I wouldn't hazard a guess at who is better on anything other than what I like to listen to verses what I don't (rather than something like the underlying theory of the music).
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 11:39 AM   #3 (permalink)
Darth Papa
 
ratbastid's Avatar
 
Location: Yonder
Today's "great composers" are working in the cinema. John Williams, Michael Nyman, Thomas Newman, Danny Elfman. If it wasn't for Hollywood hiring these guys, they'd be writing symphonies.

Some of them ARE writing symphonies, by the way.
ratbastid is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 12:55 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
trickyy's Avatar
 
producers are kind of the composers of today, too. meanwhile, the record buying public has changed the type of music that is generated.
trickyy is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 01:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
You had me at hello
 
Poppinjay's Avatar
 
Location: DC/Coastal VA
John Adams. John Mauceri.

I guess they're all named John now.

The National Symphony Orchestra has a contest for best new copmoser each year and last year's blew me away. The music stood up next to any dead organist.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet
Poppinjay is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 01:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
Addict
 
Yes.

The studios are the modern 'patrons' of composers, replacing European aristocracy and royalty that had kept such people as court musicians or composers for centuries.

We also have to remember that music schools ar emore prolific than ever, we can have nay music we want instantly and not only that which is playing in town, and also that the music you now refer to as classical was the 'pop' music of its time with the obvious knowledge that current pop music can always trace its roots to the same measures and beats.
WillyPete is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 01:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Consider the society that great composers grew up in. W.A. Mozart's father forced him to play music from the age of 2 (even though most books incorrectly say 3). Mozart also wasn't bombarded with 50 cent and other things that are considered music by todays standards. Mozart grew was born in 1756, durring the middle of vast refinment tonality and harmony in western music. He was surrounded and saturated by some of the highest quality music ever written. I also was lucky to be exposed to music of that kind when I was younger, and I learned to appreicate it. Most are not that way anymore. Walk up to an average person on the street and whistle eina kleina nacht musik and they'll probably say they heard it in a trailer for a new comedy movie.
Willravel is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 01:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
spudly
 
ubertuber's Avatar
 
Location: Ellay
Sgoilear,

Check this thread out. It is a discussion about a lot of what you are mentioning. Roachboy and I wrote a lot of stuff there that I think you'll find relevant.

Part of the difficulty with seeing great composers of the second half of the 20th century is that there were so many great ones in the first half that come to mind. 1900-1950 was actually a tremendously fertile time for classical music. Strauss, Mahler, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Bartok, Shostakovich, Berg, Shoenberg, Rachmaninov, Ravel, Hindemith, Webern, Copland, Ives, Puccini, Debussy, Sibelius, Kodaly, Vaughn Williams... That's an abundance of riches and I haven't even stretched to find name yet. Consider that someone born in 1950 is only 55 today - not too old to still write masterpieces.

As to the "greats" of the last 50 years, I think there are some. Poppinjay is right on with John Adams - I'm a HUGE fan. Check out Grand Pianola Music. I think Adams has really found a voice for modern America (just think about listening to his stuff while driving cross-country).

Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Christopher Rouse, and Arvo Part are all great as well. I like some Penderecki and Gorecki, and some of their stuff turns me off...

There is some truth to what ratbastid and WillyPete wrote as well - there is some great music in the film world, though the need to be profit-friendly can be somewhat constrictive. I've met Danny Elfman and he is quite talented... I heard his Concerto for Two Pianos last year. Frankly, it isn't as good as his film stuff. Of course, that's only one piece on one day, so take that with a grain of salt. John Williams wrote a tuba concerto that is pretty decent (not that there is a ton of competition there).

Seriously, check out the thread I linked.
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam
ubertuber is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 01:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
spudly
 
ubertuber's Avatar
 
Location: Ellay
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Consider the society that great composers grew up in. W.A. Mozart's father forced him to play music from the age of 2... He was surrounded and saturated by some of the highest quality music ever written. I also was lucky to be exposed to music of that kind when I was younger, and I learned to appreicate it.
I think that is less uncommon today that you would suppose, will. I went to school with many people who have been playing their instruments from the age of 3 or 4, and many of us grew up in homes filled with art music. I'm not claiming that's average, but then, you aren't claiming Mozart was average, are you? The real difference is in the number of people who think that classical music is relevant to their lives and experiences. Most think it isn't (though they usually don't know what they are talking about, since they haven't listened with an open mind). Those that open their eyes before looking find that there is something to see. I'm not ready to count classical music out yet...
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam
ubertuber is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 01:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubertuber
I think that is less uncommon today that you would suppose, will. I went to school with many people who have been playing their instruments from the age of 3 or 4, and many of us grew up in homes filled with art music. I'm not claiming that's average, but then, you aren't claiming Mozart was average, are you? The real difference is in the number of people who think that classical music is relevant to their lives and experiences. Most think it isn't (though they usually don't know what they are talking about, since they haven't listened with an open mind). Those that open their eyes before looking find that there is something to see. I'm not ready to count classical music out yet...
I'm not couting it out...it's more a matter of waiting for something good to come along.
Willravel is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 08:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Location: Colorado
Ubertuber,

Thanks for the link. Some good points in there that I didn't consider or even think of for that matter. I'll look up the names you mentioned and find some recordings. Much appreciated.
__________________
"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." -George Bernard Shaw
Sgoilear is offline  
Old 01-04-2006, 08:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
Psycho
 
hilbert25's Avatar
 
Location: nOvA
I think it's more just looking at the past with rose colored glasses and all that. Not to mention the fact that you probably can only name like 20 or so "great composers" over 500 years, yet there were thousands of competent and even good composers in that time, we just remember the best. No doubt some of these current ones (Philip Glass is my personal pick) will be grouped with the "great" ones in 50 years or so.
hilbert25 is offline  
Old 01-05-2006, 09:26 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
i never really understand this question--where are the "great" x of today?--one version i heard once was "where is today's james joyce?"---which i thought about at the time--chances are that "today's james joyce" (whatever that means) is out there working in obscurity, struggling to get over and continue to operate in an environment that offers minimal support. remember that joyce would perhaps have remained obscure longer had it not been for ezra pound (the little review) and others whose activism and support...

where are "today's great composers?"---the question assumes that cultural markets are rational and that, if someone who met your criteria were out there, you would know--well, cultural markets are not rational---particularly not in the states, and even more so if you are dealing--as i suspect you would be--with experimental music. for example philip glass--i dislike his music intensely myself--i do not find his use of repetition to generate phase effects to be interesting, and if you do not find that interesting there is precious little to bother with--but folk know about him. glass has become the posterboy for minimalism-lite--along with john adams---if you compare his work to that of, say la monte young or james tenney, its shortcomings become evident---depending of course on what you are looking for when you approach repetition or phase effects or long sustained pitches etc....glass/adams stay well within the set of conventions that have dominated western classical music since its inception in the late 18th-early 19th century-young, tenney, etc. do not.

other variables: la monte young for example has a very particular relation to recorded versions of his music--he does not seem to want to submit to the loss of control over his music that an extensive engagement with commecial recordings would entail--so he tightly controls how his music is released, how it is performed, etc.--my impression is that this control follows from aesthetic, political and personal objections to the current state of the american culture industry.
the point is that you cant control for varying relations to the media that gives you access to what is being produced out there in the world.

where are today's "great composers"? probably working shitty day jobs and producing a fraction of what they might otherwise have been able to---many are not able to hear their own music performed with any regularity, which means that development as ensemble writers becomes really difficult.

the other question was raised earlier and is quite important: what is composition anyway?
1. since world war 2, with the development of magnetic tape, people have been able to manipulate sound directly without having to pass through a score or any of the processes related to generating scores---musique concrete (pierre schaeffer, pierre henry initially--michel chion, bernard parmegiani, luc ferrari et al of a second generation), tape music, digital processing--all these media admit of this.

2. one of the most influential ideas put into the public sphere by john cage was that of non-intent, of "letting sounds be sounds"---from the first, an emphasis on procedures (chance operations in cage's case)--from the second a view of the relation between pitches which argues that the complexity of a given sound is only accessible to listeners if that pitch is presented as discrete---that is not as part of a series.

1 and 2 are linked---they push you past serial techniques, which already move well outside the patterns of tonal organization of the 19th century (which you still have operational in nearly every popular form of music btw)---the emphasis on complexity of pitches/sounds requires it--which would raise the question of whether folk would recognize what a "great composer" at this point is doing (that is is an appalling state of affairs, to my mind--but so it goes)

another matter--still related, believe it or not----that has become a big deal since ww2 is the gradual blurring of the lines that once separated composer and performer and improvisation from composition---all of which is an effect of recordings (which fix improvisations and thereby completely break down any meaningful line between the two types of activity)--for example: modular compositions (stockhausen's kalvierstucke 11 being the most famous the performer arranges elements in sequence and determines the apporach to each)---graphic scores that stipulate parameters for improvised performances (earle brown)---the often very complex systems worked out for linking composed and improvised elements by folk like anthony braxton (braxton here as a way of indicating many other folk as well who, working out of the tradition that folk still call jazz for some reason, try to address this relation--roscoe mitchell, anthony davis, ornette coleman, cecil taylor--the list goes on and on and on)---the rise of the free improvisation movement in the early 1960s around folk like derek bailey, amm, mev, etc---these folk (and many others since) have been working to subordinate compositional strategies to improvised performance. if you are looking for "great composers" in this kind of context, what are you looking for? there is much excellent msic being produced today in any number of genres---why would you look exclusively to the imploded field that is western classical music for access to it?

there is more too:
what defines composition in electronic music? circuit bending is a compositional form, not just the creation of compositional tools--how do you evaluate such performances?
many folk who work in this area exercize compositional controls over pieces by shaping algorhythms that makes selections from repertoires of sounds---performance is letting the algorhythm run--the results would not be the same twice----how would you evluate such procedures?
or you could think about the vast range of folk who make music using audio platforms on computers, whose work gets stuck into all kinds of strange categories, who draw on a wide range of genre/histories to shape what they are doing--what do you do with these musics?

composition in its more traditional form has become but one option for the generation of music.
the situation now is fundamentall other than it was a hundred years ago---everything about how music is accessed and processed has changed, mostly as a function of shifts in technology and the various ways in which these technological shifts have been processed.
so it could be that you cannot find "great composers" today because your mode of thinking about what the term might entail is wholly outdated.
for that matter, who determines what is and is not "great"?
what does the category mean?
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Last edited by roachboy; 01-05-2006 at 09:34 AM..
roachboy is offline  
Old 01-05-2006, 09:40 AM   #14 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Welcome to postmodern music 101... thanks roachboy.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 01-15-2006, 08:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
“Wrong is right.”
 
aberkok's Avatar
 
Location: toronto
I just came across this thread and...well, roachboy explained the situation in a way I wouldn't have had the energy for (but ought to). So many questions and assumptions when it comes to the "great" composers. Yeesh.

So yeah I agree with roachboy.

To add...why do the great composers necessarily have to be symphonic composers?

My answer to the O.P. might be something like: "Nowhere. The later half of the 1900s hasn't had too much time to get into the history books yet."

By the way, R.I.P. Derek Bailey
__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Last edited by aberkok; 01-15-2006 at 08:57 PM..
aberkok is offline  
Old 02-07-2006, 04:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Consider the society that great composers grew up in. W.A. Mozart's father forced him to play music from the age of 2 (even though most books incorrectly say 3). Mozart also wasn't bombarded with 50 cent and other things that are considered music by todays standards. Mozart grew was born in 1756, durring the middle of vast refinment tonality and harmony in western music. He was surrounded and saturated by some of the highest quality music ever written. I also was lucky to be exposed to music of that kind when I was younger, and I learned to appreicate it. Most are not that way anymore. Walk up to an average person on the street and whistle eina kleina nacht musik and they'll probably say they heard it in a trailer for a new comedy movie.
Don't forget also that what Mozart and others were composing at that time was 'pop', popular music. Lots of people didn't care for it and deemed it to elaborate, quite possibly the way people consider rap music today as redundant.

He also got drunk alot in Paris, enjoyed the ladies of the evening and got beat up and robbed in, around or during the above mentioned. The first real rock star.
percy is offline  
Old 02-08-2006, 02:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
spudly
 
ubertuber's Avatar
 
Location: Ellay
Mozart was a sissy - for real hip-hop style thuggery, check out Carlo Gesualdo (1566-1613).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
In 1586 Gesualdo married his first cousin, Maria d'Avalos, the daughter of the Marquis of Pescara. Two years later she began to have a love affair with Fabrizio Carafa, the Duke of Andria; evidently she was able to keep it secret from her husband for almost two years, even though the existence of the affair was well-known elsewhere. Finally, on October 16, 1590, when Gesualdo had allegedly gone away on a hunting trip, the two lovers took insufficient precaution at last (Gesualdo had arranged with his servants for the doors to be left unlocked), and he returned to his palace in Naples, caught them in flagrante delicto and brutally murdered them both in their bed; afterwards he carried their mutilated bodies to a public place in Naples and left them for all to see. (Maria was "viciously stabbed in the parts which it is best for a woman to keep modest," read a contemporary account.) Being a nobleman he was immune to prosecution, though not to revenge, so he fled to his castle at Gesualdo where he would be safe from any of the relatives of either his wife or her lover.
Then he lived 23 more years and got married AGAIN! His music is excellent though...
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam
ubertuber is offline  
Old 02-24-2006, 09:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
Insane
 
Originally Posted by wikipedia
In 1586 Gesualdo married his first cousin, Maria d'Avalos, the daughter of the Marquis of Pescara. Two years later she began to have a love affair with Fabrizio Carafa, the Duke of Andria; evidently she was able to keep it secret from her husband for almost two years, even though the existence of the affair was well-known elsewhere. Finally, on October 16, 1590, when Gesualdo had allegedly gone away on a hunting trip, the two lovers took insufficient precaution at last (Gesualdo had arranged with his servants for the doors to be left unlocked), and he returned to his palace in Naples, caught them in flagrante delicto and brutally murdered them both in their bed; afterwards he carried their mutilated bodies to a public place in Naples and left them for all to see. (Maria was "viciously stabbed in the parts which it is best for a woman to keep modest," read a contemporary account.) Being a nobleman he was immune to prosecution, though not to revenge, so he fled to his castle at Gesualdo where he would be safe from any of the relatives of either his wife or her lover.


Holy crap. That reminds me of that metal band that ended up killing some guy and eating his brain (or something along those lines).

As for great composers. There are many reasons why people capable of creating great classical aren't. The places where they would have in the past learned how to go about doing that are now teaching them to treat music as a science instead of an art. People care more about teaching you about music than they do about actually making it. Also, the people who care only about making pleasurable music will more likely go into pop than classical. Beyond that there is the pressure to do something original and also be high quality enough that someone would want to listen to you as opposed to the hundreds of years worth of established composers. And of course there are the money issues.

With all of those circumstances, is it really surpising that there aren't any truly great composers around? There have been similarly sized gaps between great composers in the past when the music environment was much better than it is now. How long ago did Shostakovich die anyway?
braindamage351 is offline  
 

Tags
composers, great

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:44 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360