Orchestras in rock music...
 

I was thinking about this as I was watching Evanescence's performance on the Billboard Music Awards...why are orchestral instruments so popular in rock music now? It seemed like it was a really cool idea years ago when you didn't hear it all the time but now it seems like every band has some kind of strings in the background of their music. Especially in "My Immortal", which I love don't get me wrong, the strings are simply unecessary. Besides creating a texture to the music that in my opinion is already getting beaten into the ground there is nothing going on with the string parts that help the song.

Also, who is writing these parts because they aren't anything complex. I've been thinking about this for a bit now and I'd like to hear all of your opinions. Especially on the radio it seems like I hear a lot of orchestra stuff with rock music. To wrap this up I think I'd either rather hear a really well composed orchestra part for a rock song, a good rock song at that not some main stream crap that needs some radio air time, or I would rather just listen to the band. Comments?

i think it kind of depends on the song and band on how well an orchestra sounds.
for example something mellow and loud like VAST with violins in the background and monks it really works well with the mellowish type voice.
but i didnt really like the metallica S&M all that much for the exact opposite reason.
it could be getting popular though because the big names are doing it and succeeding i guess it could almost be a way of getting more airtime and attention to a band

there's a certain appeal for rock bands to be "mainstream" in the sense that they are performing with traditionally "old-folk" bands - like, "look at us! Our fanbase transcends the boundaries of prepubescent 12 year old girls, because we ARE GOOD! We're performing with THE san francisco orchestra!"

I only liked a few seconds of a string assembly in one song. The string solo for Tuesday's Gone by Lynyrd Skynyrd. Thats it. Otherwise, I think it should die.

i'd say that stuff is made to improve airplay. sounds more pleasing than a typical rock song, so there is more appeal. instead of just hearing it on the alt-rock station, you can also hear it on the pop station.

i don't mind big productions, but like you say, it has to add something interesting to the song.

sometimes it works and makes the song more powerful, othertimes it can sound cheesy and trite. it really depends on the song. artists should be careful and take caution before adding an orchestra to a song, it can ruin it if used wrong.

I really only listen to it when the bands intend for the orchestration to be a part of the original piece of music. Epic symphonic metal (which is essentially what Evanescence is trying to do when it does that) is a pretty ridiculously cool and complex deviation from the norm of really loud guitars and incomprehensible screaming that characterizes a lot of metal.

If you like it this style and are interested, check out:

Nightwish
Blind Guardian
Rhapsody
Symphony X

Were the Beatles one of the first bands to incorporate the orchestra? Like in Day In The Life???

The Moody Blues recorded Days of Future Passed with the London Festival Orchestra. It was released in Mar 1968. Two of their most famous songs came from this album, Tuesday Afternoon and Nights in White Satin.

Check out Lacuna Coil too. Type O Negative use Orcestrial music to great effect.

One of the cooler concerts Ive been to was a rock band covering Led Zeppelin, with the Albany Symphony Orchestra...

I dont know about anything else, but that was seriously cool.

problem with most orchestrations in pop music is that they are so fucking straight, so 19th century in voicings, in understanding: it is as if the groups that write orchestral parts find themselves with a problem of legitimacy when they do it. the result is, more often than not, really really lame.

that said, there are pieces in which i kinda like it:
"smile" for example
or the studio work by mercury rev

but for the most part, the results are excremental.
and this not in a good way
witness the deep purple thing with the lso.
witness the moody blues

did george martin use tape loops exclusively with the beatles, btw?

I think strings can create a very 'dynamic' effect for a song, which sometimes fits very well. Other times its pretty bad. It's not the orchestra that makes a song though, the song has to be good in the first place without the orchestra. The strings and such are just the icing on the cake.

It isn't really new. Check out this thread: Orchestra in Rock / Art Rock / Prog Rock ?; Tirian removed the content of his article, but if you PM him nicely, he might send you a copy. It was a very interesting essay.

Beatles tested the water with a string quartet on "Yesterday" in 1965 and "Eleanor Rigby" in 1966. Full orchestra on Sgt. Pepper in 1967.

The orchestra is a timbre, just like any other tone color available to a composer. Some songwriters might want a cowbell here, a full orchestra there. The challenge, as a listener, is to deny associating an orchestra with a social class of person, and appreciate it for the sound value it contains in that particular composition.

The orchestra is a texture, and I agree with you all that say it is really cool with a good rock song and a well written orchestra part. As far as sounding mainstream that bothers me because when do you see a bunch of rock kids head out to see a major symphony orchestra perform? I don't want to say that most fans of rock music are ignorant to that kind of music, but it's a fact that rock fans aren't really pursuing listening to classical music. I think the biggest positive element an orchestra can add in a rock song is extra emotion during a climax, obviously the buildup too, otherwise it's going to be unnecessary for the most part. It has to be used correctly and with a purpose.

The problem I have with the whole orchestral thing is the remixes with it. And I think adding orchestral arrangements to demo versions is the same thing as well. Example..the remix for Broken by Seether feat. Amy Lee...it doesn't sound bad but it's just like they took the song as is with no real changes and threw an orchestra in back of it. If I was gonna add an orchestra behind my music I'd change the song almost all together and make it different....with these bands they're just grungy bands it doesn't really fit...I'd hate to hear something like "All Apologies" with a string arrangement behind it. Now songs that are written from the get go with string arrangements usually kick fuckin ass examples: G&R - November Rain, Silverchair - Tuna In The Brine, Emotion Sickness, Across The Night, Moody Blues - Nights In White Satin, Bread - Aubrey, Electric Light Orchestra - Waterfall (technically the strings n such are actual band members though), Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody, etc. So it has it's place but if it's not really part of what you're band originally is it sounds cheesy cause it's just some producer who doesn't really know you or your music hiring some guys who know even less to add a string melody and some horns behind your song as is....Lots a people had a problem with "Use Your Illusion 1 & 2" but Axle had already showed he had the potential to wanna go in a different direction with Appetite...he actually like writing ballads like "Sweet Child O' Mine" plus the band influences have to be taken into thought so it didn't surprise me when Axle wanted to do a song like "November Rain" among others...granted it may have gotten a little outta hand with songs like "Estranged", I can still see where it was coming from...so basically what I'm saying is if you're a grungy garage band by heart who's influences include The Clash, Nirvana, Ramones, Pixies, etc. you're music is gonna reflect that and won't sound natural if you let some ignorant producer throw a string quartet behind your song to make it more "radio friendly" and you should just stick to what works for you. A good band is a good band.

Asta!!

What it comes down to it looks like is the fact that if you want to make it you have to be a tool to the industry. The music industry is corrupt and wrong. Can't be blamin the bands, it's the guys in the suits who want more money and the stupid ass teeny girls who want to hear a beat.

People can flame all they want from this point forward, but Metallica's S&M album was fucking awesome. When I first heard that they had took an orchestrated approach to some of their songs, I didn't know what to think. Boy I sure as hell thought something when I heard that album. DAMN. Man you just can't beat some of the songs on there. Most certainly enhances their songs in a very nice way. And if you think orchestras in rock music is just trying to cash in, listen to No Leaf Clover. A brand new song MADE for an orchestra and a metal band. And it is good. Damn good.

I do admit that some bands do it just to get the publicity though. Hell, that's fine with me, as long as it fits together and enhances the experience.

No Leaf Clover fuckin owns! Love that song.

Asta!!

yeah, No Leaf Clover is awesome, probably in my top 5 favorite Metallica Songs

I enjoyed S&M by Metallica. I don't particularly prefer their music in general but I thought that was a pretty awesome idea. I'm referring to the crap you hear on the top of the charts overplayed on the radio with a little bit of string harmony that some dude the night before the recording was like, "oh shit I need to write something out" and then crapped on a piece of manuscript paper and brought it into the studio.

because people who suck at writing/playing need something else to beef up their lack in skill.

its probably some idiot on a triton. either a band member or a producer. its the same as all the new music on the radio which is so over-produced. i heard the new motley crue single and it had this ambient synth background, like all these new songs. in a guitar mag i read an article about nickleback(i almost just puked) and how they were proud of the fact they had about 100 tracks on one of their singles. 100 tracks??? for a rock band with 2 guitars bass and drums?

I liked S&M as well, I thought it was very different. However these little string quartets being added to the standard rock song is just stupid.

As a guitarist and a violinist, I love orchestrations if they're done right. Trans-Siberian Orchestra is quite possibly the best combination of rock and classical. In fact, I was just at one of their concerts at the Patriot Center on Wednesday, so awesome. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I'll have to go back and listen to "Going Under" cause I don't see what the fuss is about. The piano is a nice addition, contrast with the other instruments but a blend with the vocals, same thing with the orchestra. As long as it blends with something then it's cool with me. Amy Lee's voice mixes very well with orchestrations and I think to make the band actually work, they need to be there, because it would always be a complete contrast between her and the guitar and bass and it would eventually turn out to be annoying. Like I said, if it's done right, yeah, it's awesome, but if not then I wanna put my .357 to my temple just to get the noises out.

I have to say I like it in some stuff.....I know its not an entire orchestra but the violins in GNR's November Rain give me chills every time I hear them

/is way to obsessed with that song

^ Yer not the only one.

Asta!!

String arrangements can definitely work. People just need to do them well. Every average string arrangement makes the image cheesy.

It doesn't have to be a big overblown song either. Possibly my favorite string backing is in Nick Drake's "River Man". That guy doesn't have a single pompous bone in his body.

Spiritualized uses strings a lot in their music. Jason Pierce is really quite good at integrating them into the work and in some pieces making them the focus. Check out "Broken Heart" off of "Ladies and Gentleman..." It's all strings. Amazing. He also uses gospel choirs, blues riffs and other non-rock pieces to make this beautiful hybridized music that is just unbelievable.

Another band really great at integrating orchestral arrangements is the Verve. In their song "History" the strings serve to really flesh out the song and provide a dramatic background for dramatic lyrics.

Are The Verve still together? I heard on MTV they broke up...dunno if it's true though. I know Richard Ashcroft has released 2 solo albums that are pretty good I just didn't know if that means he's on his own now without them or not.

Asta!!

Yeah, the Verve broke up a year or so after their album "Urban Hymns" was released. Technically, they had broken up once before, 1995, following the release and tour for their album "A Northern Soul." They got back together to do "Urban Hymns" but I guess whatever tensions were in the band before (specifically between Richard Ashcroft and the lead guitarist, Nick McCabe) became insurmountable again. So, yeah, Ashcroft is doing solo work now, which ALSO blends orchestral arrangements well. The guy is nutters, but he sure does beautiful work.

the verve just released a retrospective disc. i guess the rest of the band hasn't been doing much lately. it's a shame really, i think they contributed a lot to the sound.

one interesting thing about spiritualized was the noise instrumentals, but jason ditched that in his last round of layoffs i think. still the music is arranged very well, can't think of a better example.
i was hoping to have a bootleg of a show from their last US tour (one night after i saw them) but the mailing vine has been stalled for a month...dangit. the setup was pretty basic as i recall, but back in the day spiritualized put on a huge production (see the royal albert hall discs)

One of the best orchestral type things I saw was with Page and Plant at the Skydome in Toronto about 10 years ago. They had a traditional orchestra (T.O Symphony) plus an orchestra(?) of Indian musicians also. Kashmir rocked. Otherwise if it is done in a half assed way just to do it, I'd rather pass.

Got a good laugh at what roachboy said earlier regarding how straight and lame the 19th century bit is. Reminded me of failing a big composition assignment (Rock band accompanied by strings) because the string quartet I was writing for had the violin voices below the viola and cello, and the latter higher.Asshole comp prof failed me for not sticking to the rules but the orchestra musicians who performed it thought it was pretty cool.

Oh god yes, S&M is one of my favorites. I just thought it was such a neat idea to combine such opposite ends of the spectrum of music and have it sound as good as it did. One of my favorite albums to crank up of all time! :thumbsup:

Deep Purple played with the Royal Philharmonic in '69
good album to check out IMO
let's see now, Zappa did an orchestra thing didnt he?

and good ol Yngwie 'FUCKIN!' Malmsteen did one were he is more integrated into the orchestra rather then a rock agains symphony type thing