Can someone argue why rap music "doesn't" suck?

[Shauk]

Maybe I just hate like 98% of the music that people pass off as acceptable but it feels like to me, that rap, most of it anyway, passes off the lowest common denominator of creativity.

Lets talk about musical composition for a moment. If you took away the lyrics of your favorite hip hop/rap song, what do you have? Seems to me, in most cases, it's a fairly thin layer of music. A beat, a bassline, and maybe, maybe, a lead.

I come from a genre that gets the MOST flak for being repetitious (that'd be electronic), yet anyone who's serious about music can tell you, hiphop/rap should easily, in most cases, be winning that title day in and day out.

I don't mean to turn this in to a pissing contest between genre's or in to a musical elitism thread, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the kind of people who will come in to this thread and do just that.

of course some people are going to be like "but rap isn't rap without lyrics" and yes, that is true, but again, on a strictly compositional level, before lyrics are even applied, what do you have? seriously.

I spent 3 hours down at the guitar center today in the pro-audio section looking at different peices of gear and it seemed like everyone that came in and walked out with something was an aspiring wannabe rap artist. Even the guys behind the counter fit the stereotype and seemed kind of put off when I mentioned I was in to Electronic Music. (yeah thanks you can put that Korg EMX-1 back, I think i'll order it online)


erg, I understand that sometimes simplicity is all it takes to get people moving, but there are people who are building thier mansions and "bling" on this simplicity and I see far more deserving complex artists go unnoticed trying to make their way on myspace and well. Man, It almost hurts to see that.

I guess it all comes down to a matter of personal opinion here and there in some regards....

eh, then again, people who say lyrics are the bread and butter of rap... I watch this and weep.

[Willravel]

Rap itself isn't music. It's by definition Rhythm And Poetry. It's just poetry with a beat. Is the poetry good? Rarely, but sometimes. Are the beats good? Again, rarely, but sometimes.

[Baraka_Guru]

The trick is to look beyond mainstream rap. Look for underground or indie hip-hop, and you'll find artistry, both in sampling, layering, rhyming, rhythm, and lyrics....the latter of which is often political, speaking about Black culture (i.e. diaspora, poverty, racism, violence, community, slavery, education, post-colonialism, etc, etc, etc.).

Unfortunately, I haven't extensively explored the rich culture of meaningful hip-hop, but I know it's there, and I've heard a lot that is beautiful. Just like willravel said, rap (e.g. hip-hop) is essentially poetry to a beat, but with added rhythms, hits, and the occasional melody. Much of it prides itself on "borrowing" or appropriating popular culture as a way of either undermining it or reinventing it for its familiarity. But it all boils down to lyrics and rhythms.

There is a lot of bad rap out there (read: gangsta rap), but there is also a lot of bad rock.... really bad rock. I'm sure you know of a lot of bad electronic music out there, or at least genres that give your preferred genre a bad name by unfortunate association (read: techno, dance). Good hip-hop has this same challenge. As does good indie/alternative/progressive rock.

If you want to find some good hip-hop, try browsing the site metacritic.com and find some of the highly rated indie hip-hop albums, and check them out. I'm not sure what's been released or reviewed lately, but some of the previous albums from other years I've checked out, and some of them are quite good. Another option would be to look for free .mp3 samples of indie artists online through various sites. I have no recommendations for any; I've been out of that loop for a while now.

[Plan9]

Easy racial-stereotype answer: Because you're a cracker.

...

Why is death metal that screams about satan good?

Why was Metallica so good? Why do people by Britney Spears albums?

Why are the Misfits living gods in my universe?

Because we all have opinions of what is good.

*cranks some Rancid*

[telekinetic]

Do not extrapolate generic crunk rap (yay MC Lars!) accross the entire genre. I'd make a more intelligent posts, but everyone pretty much already has their opinoins set in stone (even your subject line is loaded), and noone will be able to argue you into liking something you've decided sucks.

[Plan9]

Alternate answer:

"Yo-yo, so the big booty hoes shake that junk in their trunk, fo shizzle."

...

Why women like this music is beyond me... but as a guy? I can see the wet dream world of a crunk rapper: "I got girls, I got stuff, I'm the bestest ever."

[ring]

Some of my bestest friends are ironic Gangstas.

^^ like he said ^^ and others before,and will after.

"I'm sorry mama"

[Baraka_Guru]

There are a couple of "rappers" doing really well in Canada right now: k-os and Buck 65. Much of the reason is because they mix genres in with their rap, including jazz, reggae, funk, rock, etc. The end result is something fresh. Oh, and the rhymes are good.

[Shauk]

subject may be loaded but if you read the post I'm sure you'll see i'm open to your debates TM.

Try me. I just want someone to open my eyes here, Give me examples, toss me a youtube video or a rhapsody link, show some effort and stand by your genre of choice, champion the fucking genre like you love it if it means anything to you. It's how I treat what I do, and I like a lot of different genres, I like to think of myself as somewhat rounded, but this is just one slice of the pie that I can't seem to want to eat after the various samples i've been fed.

[Plan9]

Dude, don't make me bust out MC Hammer. That would be all bad.

[ring]

Try some 'Trick Daddy', see what ya think.

[Baraka_Guru]

The following video contains mature 9-11 subject matter.
Viewer discretion is advised.

"Bush Knocked Down the Towers" (Lyrics included!)




Not the best example, but is shows that aggressive "gangsta-style" rap doesn't always have to be about money, bling, bullets, and hos.

I'll look for something better, but this is a start. (i.e. examples of how rap is often about the message, not the music.)

EDIT:
Same artists (Immortal Technique), different message. Still political. Better example.
Course language, violence. Viewer discretion still advised.


Sweatshop Union "Thing About It" (So uplifting )


Sabac Red "Speak Militant"

Talib Kweli "The Proud"

Talib Kweli "The Proud"

(no embedding available) *This one's pretty good.


This isn't a bad sample to start. This is along the lines of what I was talking about.

[ring]

Yeah.. it's kinda like the three elements of the most popular action movies,
I call it the Three B's (bullets- boobs- bombs) Damn that would be a good name for a band would it not?

Thank you Baraka Guru, it's all about the message for me.
Just saw the second video you put up, thanks again for taking the time to do that.

[Jack The Lad]

I like the music. This is what I think is wrong with rap/hip hop culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger

[ring]

Jack the Lad, if you could give an example of how this link affects you personally in your opinion, I might understand a bit better.

This whole topic could do a wheelie on glare ice rather quickly I imagine.

I sense strong emotions..Am I wrong?

I am going to start a band called the 'Animal Crackers'

[Manic_Skafe]

Like all things and all other types of music, rap doesn't suck if you learn to appreciate it in it's proper context.

But first things first, that song by T-Pain and most of everything else that you hear on the radio or see in videos really shouldn't be considered rap. For the most part, they are, for lack of a better term, gangstafied pop.

So while they may seem to be the lowest common denominator of creativity, you'll have to realize that the songs weren't created with the intention of displaying the artist(s) range of musical capabilities or pushing the envelope any further. They are created for the purpose of being catchy enough to be remembered and trendy enough for kids to dance to. And if the song comes along with it's own dance then that's just icing on the cake:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vum3qgoh0x4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vum3qgoh0x4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

of course some people are going to be like "but rap isn't rap without lyrics" and yes, that is true, but again, on a strictly compositional level, before lyrics are even applied, what do you have? seriously.

For someone who makes music as typically ambiguous as electronic music, I highly doubt you're incapable of answering your own question. Even with the pop-rap I described above, you can still take away quite a bit from the music alone if you're willing enough to appreciate it in it's own context.

But if you're looking for artists who appear to put exactly as much effort into producing the beats and underlying tracks as they do in writing the lyrics then just listen to anything produced by El-P, Aesop Rock, Blockhead, or the Rza to name a few of my favs.

but there are people who are building thier mansions and "bling" on this simplicity and I see far more deserving complex artists go unnoticed trying to make their way on myspace and well. Man, It almost hurts to see that.

You can't pin any of that on the artist who made the song about bling. They didn't go platinum by repeatedly purchasing their own albums - millions of people independently chose to do so and while it may seem that there are more deserving artists out there, who are we to say that whatever their fans take from the music isn't valid or truly significant?

I guess it all comes down to a matter of personal opinion here and there in some regards....

No, it's a matter of opinion in all regards to the subject.

And I also disagree completely with Willravels assertion that rap isn't music but rather rhythm and poetry.

My recommendations:

Aesop Rock - None Shall Pass

On the track "Bring Back Pluto", Aesop draws a parallel between the fact that Pluto is no longer classified as one of the planets of our solar system and the pressure that he feels as an artist and what people expect of him and his career.

El-P - I'll Sleep When You're Dead

On this album El-P collaborates with everyone imaginable - from Trent Reznor to The Mars Volta to Chan Marshall of Cat Power to create one of the most dense and epic rap albums ever.

..

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/l1u43KDiWD0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l1u43KDiWD0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[Jack The Lad]

Originally Posted by ring

Jack the Lad, if you could give an example of how this link affects you personally in your opinion, I might understand a bit better.

This whole topic could do a wheelie on glare ice rather quickly I imagine.

I sense strong emotions..Am I wrong?

I am going to start a band called the 'Animal Crackers'

It's nothing too deep really, just a peeve, and it's probably more applicable to young English middle class 'wiggers'.

I'm all for multiculturalism, but I guess what really annoys me about 'wiggers' is that they tend to - at least in my experience - assimilate aspects of black culture in the most crass way possible. They often re-inforce negative stereotypes, become a parody the way of life they aspire to live, and pretend to be something that they're not. It's a free world - people can act the way they like - but, for example, I respect rappers (of any colour or creed) a lot more when they talk about their REAL lives, not just violence or bling...unless that IS their real life, of course.

Ice T's appraisal of Vanilla Ice springs to mind: 'He says he's 'street'? What street?!? Sesame Street?'

*EDIT* I'm not saying white people can't rap. Eminem is not a wigger. He speaks with his own voice in a hip hop context. I'm talking about posh teenagers, with names like Tarquin or Timothy, who think they're 'gangstas' if they wear tracksuits, speak like Snoop Dogg, and grab their crotches alot.

The Streets tell it like it is:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/veAIHDGghP4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/veAIHDGghP4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

By the way, I hope no one is offended by the term 'wigger' (it's only ever been used in a comical context, to the best of my knowledge, but I'll gladly delete my post if it's deemed inappropriate.)

Boyakasha!

[Derwood]

you can't judge all kinds of music equally. to say that there isn't "deep composition" in rap is looking at it all wrong. it's a musical form that originated on the street with NO music whatsoever (except maybe a human beat-box).

that said, there is some pretty complex production in a lot of Dr. Dre produced tracks from the late 90's

[Rogue Element]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

The trick is to look beyond mainstream rap. Look for underground or indie hip-hop, and you'll find artistry, both in sampling, layering, rhyming, rhythm, and lyrics....the latter of which is often political, speaking about Black culture (i.e. diaspora, poverty, racism, violence, community, slavery, education, post-colonialism, etc, etc, etc.).

The correct answer.

In fact, I would go beyond it being about black culture. Hiphop and rap is now a global lingua franca for the dispossed and disenfranchised youth. Barring the monied superstars pushed by the big record labels, naturally. There is some excellent hiphop coming out of China and Siberia, for example. Ghana has some hot stuff too, and even Indonesia has a fledgling scene.

There is also very much an underground, DIY ethic, which some fans of punk will no doubt appreciate. Most new tracks and artists in rap spreads by word and taking part in rap battles and the like, not by being groomed by record execs.

A couple of decent English speaking examples of decent rap would be Jedi Mind Tricks, Black Twang, Roots Manuva, El-P (whose last album dispels any myths about rubbish backing music. Unless you hate Mars Volta), Sage Francis and Saul Williams.

In fact, I better stop there, before I get carried away.

[Plan9]

Hmmm, it seems kinda stupid to say that only those with a dark pigmentation who grew up in the ghetto (street cred) can create certain types of music.

These kinda comments perpetuate racism if not stereotypes.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Rogue Element

In fact, I would go beyond it being about black culture. Hiphop and rap is now a global lingua franca for the dispossed and disenfranchised youth. Barring the monied superstars pushed by the big record labels, naturally. There is some excellent hiphop coming out of China and Siberia, for example. Ghana has some hot stuff too, and even Indonesia has a fledgling scene.

This is an excellent point. I used Black culture as one example. There certainly are other cultures that use the form to express themselves to get their messages out.

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Hmmm, it seems kinda stupid to say that only those with a dark pigmentation who grew up in the ghetto (street cred) can create certain types of music.

Another great point. I'm not sure if this would always generate racism, but it certainly draws undue and unfounded criticism, and is why I'm wary of the term wigger. If you've listened to enough Eminem and The Streets, you'd know that the genre isn't impenetrable to White folk. If anything, it's a mode of communication for urban youth in general. Blues, jazz, and rock took similar paths: They started as Black genres and branched out to virtually every walk of life.

[Plan9]

threadjack:

Are black and white proper nouns?

[Strange Famous]

listen to Dizzee Rascal instead of 50 Cent

what do you know about boiling a kettle for a bath?

[Fly]

nope sorry..........no argument here.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Shauk

eh, then again, people who say lyrics are the bread and butter of rap... I watch this and weep.

*listens to Bono wail*

"Yeaaah, yeaaah, yeaaah, yeaah... AND I FEEEEEEL!"

*listens to Pantera scream*

"Ohhhh fucking hostile!"

...

You were saying?

[Willravel]

If there were rappers out there on the level of Rudyard Kipling, this would be a different conversation. There aren't. The few rappers with some insight or ability are considered to be outstanding because of the field they play in. I'm not talking about TI or Kanyeayie West. I'm talking about 2pac or Mos Def, rappers that are able to reasonably articulate something beyond "I'm an alcoholic", "I enjoy the presence of promiscuous women", "my car is worth more than your house", "I live in a low income area", or "I am a murderer". But really if you compare the artistic abilities of even the best rappers to any poet of merit in history, they fall short in a way that can only be described as "das fucked up, yo".

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Are black and white proper nouns?

No, they're common nouns.

Common noun: American
Proper noun: Crompsin

I capitalize Black and White to distinguish the cultural entities from the common colours. I mean Black and White people, not black and white.

It saves me from having to type out "of African descent" and "of the Caucasoid race."

Originally Posted by willravel

If there were rappers out there on the level of Rudyard Kipling, this would be a different conversation. There aren't.

Poetry is dead, willravel. But, seriously, we can't expect rappers to produce something akin to what came out of a stuffy British guy from the turn of the 20th century. Rappers that are good are coming out with statements about things that bother them and weigh them (and their "people") down. Not the best example for content, necessarily, but do you think it's easy to piece together what comes out of Eminem's mouth? To deny that he's good in some capacity would convince me you don't have a full enough understanding of language and how it works.

I would have preferred you compare rappers to the likes of Langston Hughes, considering the culture and the issues of their respective art forms. I don't know of any rappers that would hold up to that, though. But it's not like I know rap that well.

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by willravel

If there were rappers out there on the level of Rudyard Kipling, this would be a different conversation. There aren't. The few rappers with some insight or ability are considered to be outstanding because of the field they play in. I'm not talking about TI or Kanyeayie West. I'm talking about 2pac or Mos Def, rappers that are able to reasonably articulate something beyond "I'm an alcoholic", "I enjoy the presence of promiscuous women", "my car is worth more than your house", "I live in a low income area", or "I am a murderer". But really if you compare the artistic abilities of even the best rappers to any poet of merit in history, they fall short in a way that can only be described as "das fucked up, yo".

I'd give a twenty one gunshot salute
With the toy rifle that you bought me but it won't shoot
And all is well because there's been one too many shots
The sterile robots want to talk to me about detox
Stop the presses, there's been an update
Delivered via 1:30 AM phone call
When an only half-informative source talks discretely
Meet me... at the family room on the side of the Intensive Care Unit
Immediately, I carry a tune
The sirens so loud, can't hear my music
Keep free... of negative thoughts, everything'll be fine
We all assume... That it would go back to the way things were
That it would go back to normal soon
Saw the moon in a way that I never seen it before
When I looked up that night into the sky wondering why
Lookin' for answers, guess I ain't asked right
I'm guessin most of y'all out there know exactly what that's like
What that's like, now tell me what's that like?

It's like a whirlwind of emotions that occurs when moms and dads fight
It's like when a girl grins, an emotion of hers
That holds your arm, and grabs tight
Hurl him into the ocean, one of them cold sweat heat flash types
But extreme fluctuations and temperature changes
Have been known to crack pipes...
...crack pipes...crack pipes...

Meet me-- half way and i'll go that extra length just to help your strength
Meet me-- at the AA meeting, needing to take more than 12 steps
Bring me to your hiding place, so I can face your vice grip
I'll chisel every single monkey off your back with this ice pick
Come meet up with me on the sidelines when the game is over just to say hello
Then afterwards, backstage to let me know that you enjoyed the show
And go to grandma's house for Sunday dinner
Sit at the head of the table, take away the fatal flaw
you made the day before, I seen you bleed
Meet me-- on Christmas Eve, we can fight but make up before you leave
Make visits with the rest of those who rest in pieces of my dreams
Meet me at the fork in the road where lost souls get indecisive
Meet me at the crossroads so I can have someone to walk into the light with

_____________

Go write something better than that about loss and then come back and make your point again?

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

No, they're common nouns.

So much for being facetious. I brought a sharp stick to that sword fight.

...

Mom! He called me a proper noun!

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

/snip, strange famous (Paul Francis) lyrics
_____________

Go write something better than that about loss and then come back and make your point again?

Or I could tell you that my job is not to rap or to write poetry, but that doesn't mean I can't tell that lyrics are crap compared to real poets. Would you really compare the above with Walt Whitman?

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by willravel

If there were rappers out there on the level of Rudyard Kipling, this would be a different conversation. There aren't.

Pfft, haven't you read any Poe lately?

"Hark," quoth muthafuckin' blackbird, "Nevermo', bitches!"

...

Yeah, not too many rappers come straight outta the mean streets of Oxford.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by willravel

Or I could tell you that my job is not to rap or to write poetry, but that doesn't mean I can't tell that lyrics are crap compared to real poets. Would you really compare the above with Walt Whitman?

Not many "real" poets can hold up to Walt Whitman, so why would you do that of rappers? You're missing the point here. Rap is not the poetry Whitman was concerned with. What would you say if I told you that Homer pwns Whitman? What is the point of that?

If anything, rappers are doing what was pioneered by William Wordsworth: "Speaking in the language of common man." People in inner-city Detroit don't speak like Whitman did; why should they rap like him? Besides, Whitman was mainly free verse, rap needs a strong 4X4 beat, often with rhymes.

Originally Posted by Crompsin

"Hark," quoth muthafuckin' blackbird, "Nevermo', bitches!"

Holy shit, Crompsie. You've got to stop killing me with this stuff.

Do Shakespeare! Do Shakespeare!

[Strange Famous]

THE world below the brine,
Forests at the bottom of the sea, the branches and leaves,
Sea-lettuce, vast lichens, strange flowers and seeds, the thick tangle openings, and pink turf,
Different colors, pale gray and green, purple, white, and gold, the play of light through the water,
Dumb swimmers there among the rocks, coral, gluten, grass, rushes, and the aliment of the swimmers,
Sluggish existences grazing there suspended, or slowly crawling close to the bottom,
The sperm-whale at the surface blowing air and spray, or disporting with his flukes,
The leaden-eyed shark, the walrus, the turtle, the hairy sea-leopard, and the sting-ray,
Passions there, wars, pursuits, tribes, sight in those ocean-depths, breathing that thick-breathing air, as so many do,
The change thence to the sight here, and to the subtle air breathed by beings like us who walk this sphere,
The change onward from ours to that of beings who walk other spheres.

___

Well, I'll think a while about which means more to be about my life - and let you know.

But poetry is personal, the only poet I have ever read and enjoyed is Philip Larkin, but many rap songs have affected me emotionally.

The appreciation of art is mostly subjective. There are millions of people who listen to rap music, far fewer today reading this character you call "Walt Whitman". So is rap better because it is more popular?

What is the criteria to judge by? Grammatical correctness? Popularity? Or just what each person thinks and feels?

The fact is that rap does represent, whatever colour the people are, the working classes, the youth - perhaps when one is in a position like you where you plan to send your children to private school and so on, it is harder to identify?

My original point was not entirely a joke... what DO you know about boiling a kettle for a bath? This music represents an entire generation that the middle class and well off and the establishment like you do not even know exists.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Not many "real" poets can hold up to Walt Whitman, so why would you do that of rappers? You're missing the point here. Rap is not the poetry Whitman was concerned with. What would you say if I told you that Homer pwns Whitman? What is the point of that?

I'd have to agree. My point, though, is that most rap is about the level of poetry one would expect from an emo guy with black fingernails who plays his guitar outside the band room back in high school, if that. The youtube video in the OP illustrates that point pretty damn well. My point is that rap would do well with people who were concerned with art, not marketing. It's the same issue I have with pop, only pop is actually music.

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

If anything, rappers are doing what was pioneered by William Wordsworth: "Speaking in the language of common man." People in inner-city Detroit don't speak like Whitman did; why should they rap like him? Besides, Whitman was mainly free verse, rap needs a strong 4X4 beat, often with rhymes.

Life imitates art more than not in this case though, not the other way around. No one really said 'hrr' instead of 'here' before Nelly. That aside, I doubt that Whitman spoke the way he wrote. If he did, it'd be really crazy to talk to him.
Me: Hey, Walt. How was your weekend?
Walt Whitman: YOU who celebrate bygones!
Who have explored the outward, the surfaces of the races—the life that has exhibited itself...
Me: What?

[Plan9]

You just equated Walt Whitman to something like talking to a drunken homeless person.

[Willravel]

Yes, but considering how many drunk homeless people I talk to it's not necessarily a negative. There's this guy downtown names Spooky (best name ever, he was born on Halloween), and he tells the best stories I've ever Walt Whitnessed.

[Baraka_Guru]

Excellent points, willravel. I think it's important to note that rap is a popular art form. To see what has worth requires going underground. Poetry has always been like that. Lord Byron vs. Samuel Taylor Coleridge! Go! (i.e. One was a lord, the other a well-known drug addict.)

I know Whitman didn't talk like he did in his poetry, but his use of language in everyday speech had an influence in his work, as it does with rappers and their own work. It is the difference that they become obsessed with. What is the difference between poetry and speech? A question for the ages. This is what even rappers explore. (Your Nelly example is suitable.) What you see is that art and life borrow from each other; it always has. The memes of Whitman's day differ from the rapper's memes of today, but the mechanics are similar. Rappers don't rap at the dinner table to their mothers. Especially if it's Thanksgiving.

Gone are the days when we wrote: "And Apollo, riding his emblazoned chariot down from lofty Olympus...."

Now, we simply say: "The sun was shining."

It is within the progression from one extreme to the next that we see the marked differences between Whitman's and Nelly's respective lines.

[Plan9]

Hamlet in duh Hiz-ouse! Act II, Scene II

"What uh piece uh work are my brothas! How proud in brains! How end-luss in bling and in Escalades, how frontin' and representin', rollin' like God's homies, in reasonable anxious fear like his holiness, Biggie Smalls, in an SUV! The beautilicious of the Earf! The uprightness of my dawgs! And yet, to me, what is this Kool-Aid of ashy elbows? My brothas don't please me no more; no, nor my bitches neither, yo... though, by your flashin' grille, you seem to say fo'shizzle!"

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Gone are the days when we wrote: "And Apollo, riding his emblazoned chariot down from lofty Olympus...."

Now, we simply say: "The sun was shining."

Whatever, Baraka. We know how you answer the phone.

[Willravel]

I don't think you're giving the medium enough credit. I suspect that rap could be an instrument of genius, if instrumented by a real maestro; someone with a ton of talent and skill with our language. It's this bar that I set which I suspect is why I am left wanting with the stars or even underground stars of today. Is it wrong to imagine Dylan Thomas being filmed fishbowl with Timbaland in the background repeating every few phrases in the break?

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by willravel

I don't think you're giving the medium enough credit. I suspect that rap could be an instrument of genius, if instrumented by a real maestro; someone with a ton of talent and skill with our language. It's this bar that I set which I suspect is why I am left wanting with the stars or even underground stars of today. Is it wrong to imagine Dylan Thomas being filmed fishbowl with Timbaland in the background repeating every few phrases in the break?

I see your basic concern, and in many ways, I have the same. As one whose educational background includes poetry, I crave something from the hip-hop genre that I'm not getting. Maybe it exists, but maybe I'm too White and middle-class to know where to find it. Basically, I'd like to see someone with the structural/musical talent of Eminem but with the lyrical talent and cultural sensitivities of Langston Hughes. If hip-hop is to be saved from the gangstas, this is the kind of artist that will do it.

By the by, your Dylan Thomas/Timbaland example is as silly, yet entertaining, as my saying Flood should produce John Williams (the Australian classical guitarist). I smell a maaaash-UP! Where's my Macbook?!