Need advice with Car Audio - In specific subs and amps.
 

I'm planning on finishing my car interior here in a few weeks and the first step is going to be the subwoofers. I have a bazooka sub now and its decent but def nothing more than what you would find in most new cars. I already have the deck and speakers done ( Boston Acoustics, very nice), and I'm looking at either getting 2 12'' Alpine Type - R's in a sealed Box with a 1000W Amp ( so far I've looked at Alpine and R Fosgate). Ive also looked at 2 12'' JL Audio 12W3's but apart from that and that their more expensive I don't know much about the JL Subs. I've been told, and from what I saw from 1 8'' that their very nice subs and will probably be a little better than the Type R's.

Ive got a mid-sized car and I intent to spend about 1000 to 1300 on the Sub, Amp, and Box. I want to know what people think would be best in terms of Subwoofers, and what they think would be the best in terms of Amplifiers. I want to spend around 500 or so on the Amp, and can prolly find it for that price on E-bay. If anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated.

I suggest you save some money and go with a 200w amp, since you're never going to use it's full power. Basically, a 1,000w amp is like a 1,000hp car. How often--if ever--are you going to use all that power?

I recently helped a buddy set up a box with a 10" Pioneer sub, running off his head unit's amp (around 22w RMS) and it shakes the shit out of the car. At full volume, you can't even sit in there. Anyone who suggests more than 200w is either ignorant or a retard.

I wouldn't get an amp off of ebay. The prices are just too good on there. Sounds fishy. I would get one at Best Buy or your local audio shop and get a damn nice warranty. Also, a 200 watt amp is not enough for your subwoofers. If you want enormous bass, the kind you have subwoofers for, get at least something that will do 150 watts X 2. 200 X 2 or 300 X 2 would kick royal ass. When I had my setup before I sold it (due to car issues), it made driving fun. If you can get a bandpass box (makes the bass inside the car super strong, but outside the car it lessens the sound) you're in business. And I have to high-five you on the Boston Acoustics. Some of the best damn speakers I've ever heard. I have 4 of those in my car as well on the inside.




Brands:

Rockford Fosgate is always a solid choice. DO NOT get Sony Amplifiers. I've seen more of those fried than any. One thing to keep in mind: The more money you spend, generally, the more power and quality. Sucks doesn't it :(


JL Subwoofers are very nice sounding from what I've heard. Sony subs aren't bad either.




Get a CD player that has bass boost and a sub level built in, so you can change the settings around to make it sound the best.

alpine and JL are both very good companies, but JL makes AWESOME subs. if you can afford them, get them. or kicker... kicker is great.

if i were building in your price range i would do this...

2 Kicker L7's x $350
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-A4Rd3hH...00&I=2064S10L7
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/pro...64S10L7-f.jpeg

1 MTX (great amp brand) Thunder 1004 x $500
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-A4Rd3hH...120&I=236T1004
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/pro...36T1004-f.jpeg

$1200, great system.

JL audio is basically one of the top of the line brands. i have a w6v2 and a 500/1 amp in my car. JL is very very good at reproducing wide ranges of frequencies, however i do not know very much about the w3's, except they are an older model.

alpine is always good though
rockford fosgate is decent
i really am a fan of polk/momo also

id say go alpine though for your price range.

get a hifonics amp and a 12" brahma sub (around $150); you wont regret it. I bought 3 hifonic amps off ebay and they all work flawlessly (until they got stolen of course). My friends brahma sub hits hard. Check it out at Adire audio. google that name for the website. I wouldnt go with the type-r subs; you can get much better better with that same kind of money.

Absolute nonsense. There is more to audio than math BoCo. I can tap out a 200 watt amp with no trouble at all. Ask it to accurately reproduce a 20 Hz pipe organ note at full reference and it'll puke out guaranteed. The reason you need/want big power on your system is to accurately reproduce the full dynamics of the recording (its called headroom). Let's pull out a little math here since you seem to be so fond of it...

We are listening to a classical recording at a volume of X. At the end of the recording, we get two big whacks on the timpani at X+2 for good measure. Depending on the listening volume, your 200w amp may or may not have the power to accurately reproduce it at the proper relative volume to the rest of the recording. Say you get lucky and you had the volume on the head unit low enough to still be within the amp's power reserve. Trouble is, most people don't listen to music like this (*especially* classical). Call me crazy, and I like screamo, hardcore, and metalcore as much as the next guy... but there is no musical experience as visceral as a loud and dynamic classical recording. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra circa 1950's comes to mind... Most car audio people don't listen at comfortable volumes. So now we're jammin along at elevated levels on your little 200w amp. Now (obviously) the level of the background symphony is louder, we'll call it X+2 and so must be the subsequent whacks on the timpani at the end. The reference level for the timpani is now X+4. Here is where the 200w just can't cut it anymore. The recording calls for X+4, but your amp can only take it up to X+3, so it clips. The amp produces a square wave until the recording drops back to within the capabilities of the amp. A square wave causes the woofer to stay "locked" in mid excursion, and because the cone is not moving, no air is flowing over the voice coil and it cannot cool itself. Granted an instance like this will only produce a square wave for a brief second, bass music that is soooo sought after by car audio fans will. With 1000 watts, you can (virtually) never ask for too much out of the amp, and it will never clip and put your woofers at risk. I have never seen a blown woofer due to overpowering. Not one. Ever. Ever. I have, however, seen more than a few (dozen) that went kablooey because they were trying to serve up the latest offering from Lil John with a shitty couple hundred watt amp. Few brief anecdotes here regarding "over" powering woofers:

1. I ran my 750w RMS rated 12W7's at 1000 watts (each) with never so much as a hiccup out of them.

2. I later ran my 300w RMS rated Alpine Type R's at 1000 watts (each) with the same result.

3. My friend Andy ran his 1000w RMS rated 13W7 at 2000 watts (JL 1000/1 on each coil... rawr) with no problems. He is a fan of rap and bass music. It also *barely* moved off a JL 500/1.

If you ask me anyone who runs a subwoofer off a head unit is a retard. The amp in that deck is 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, clipping to beat the band. And I know NO ONE would turn down 1000 hp over a paltry 200.

1) what type of music do you listen to
2) the JL subs have more movement ability, I've torn 4-6 Type-Rs from over-extension with double kick drums.
3) W3's have more room than the Type-R, the W6 sounds twice as good as the W3 (which by the way, max out at around 350w (little more, but if you go to a store, ask to see the company warranty information, they have a graph. If you have too much power it will void the warranty.)
4) 1000W is too much for a Type-R setup. I ran a single Type-R off a 500w and tore it to hell (as stated above), switching to a single W6 10" now (possibly another switch to a 12", which is what the type-r was)
5) Something to inspect with your subs, do they have a rubber lining to the cone or a foam. JL has foam which improves life expectancy, where as the type-r will seperate after time.

Naturally it's going to barely move off something like that. That's like putting a 500w amp on a Type-X, it just won't work. When you get to the high quality sub line, you're going to be paying for a high quality amp to go along with it.

However, the poster is not looking to put in high quality subs. Type-R's are near obselete until later this year when they come out with a re-created version. Currently the Type-S is the same as the Type-R of old. If the poster is looking to get new subs from a retailer, he's most likely going to be offered Type-S' unless it hasn't sold out of it's Type-R or ordered the new Type-S.

They have 2 specialty stores in the area, one pushed the Type R's and a memphis amp. The other sold mainly the JL Audio's. 18'' JL sitting right in the middle of the store to emphisize the point. I have a friend who put 2 12'' Type R's with a 1000W Fosgate Amp with a ported box in the back of his tiny Eclipse. No Trunk Room. Sit in that thing for more than a few seconds when those things are unleashed and you wont think straight for the rest of the day, great stuff :D . Not to mention the fact that he's selling the amp to get a 2000W amp. From what I heard of the JL Audios I couldnt be sure, only heard 1 8'' in the back of an SUV. The sub brand really depends on what is on E-bay at the time (new of course). I would probably buy everything off of ebay and have one of these stores install it just because of the overpriced nature of what their selling.

Thanks for the info, I'm going to look into MTX and the JL amps now and see whats there.

Stores do not sell at an "overpriced nature," they sell at the RETAIL PRICE. You are a consumer, you pay the retail price. You get what you pay for. Call me a bad person if you will, but I really enjoy it when someone brings in a broken piece of gear to me they bought on ebay and expect me to do something about it. I really enjoy seeing them get fucked. Does that make me a bad person? Because I really don't care. Save your few bucks if you will...

Post up what you decide to get.

Do the type r have a heavy magnet? Ive never worked with them, just wondering some specs on em.

Type R's don't have a mega magnet like W7 or H2's or anything, but they are a very capable sub. I think their magnet is like 20 lbs or something. I loved my Type R's when I had them. Considering you can almost get 4 Type R 12's for the price of 1 12W7 and they don't require a zillion watts to move, you can't really go wrong.

He is going to be getting the old type-r, pushing that much power and he (obviously wants boom), will lower the lifetime of the sub considerably. I ran 1 12" Type-R off of a 500w, i tore the cone from the rubber lining numerous times. Type-Rs are being rebuilt FOR A REASON. Most stores only have a warranty that covers a one time issue. Others, like Ultimate Electronics, have a more long term guarantee.

I would highly suggest buying a JL as it will be a longer term investment and you won't have to replace it as soon.

IMO spend your money on the amp, a good amp with a decent speaker will sound better than a shitty amp with the best speakers on the market. Oh, and please for the love of god DO NOT buy a pre-fab box. I'd go JL personally because I dislike Alpine, most high end audio equipment is about on the same level, it mostly comes down to brand preference.

I don't really know how you guys are blowing Type R's... I never saw one come back when I was selling them. I ran mine at 1000 watts each and never hurt them.

A shitty amp will blow a good speaker. Running too much power to a sub in a ported box or too big of a sealed box, watching a sub try to reproduce 10hz @ full power is always fun too.

This is bar far the biggest load of crap I have read on this forum (your next post is a close second).
PLEASE do us all a favor and refrain from posting ANY more of your hot air on here. This information is loaded with false claims and pure BS :crazy: :confused:

Enjoyable, seeing I had just come from researching on my own and discussing at length with a variety of car audio techs (not salesman), furthermore, as someone who has owned a type-r for the past 3 years, I know my sub.

What part of my statement was crap by the way? That i've torn multiple cones from their lining? That the Type-R doesn't sound as good? That 1000W is too much for two type-r subs? Or perhaps the Type-S sounding like the Type-R right now?

Fact: Recreated Type-S has been released, currently taking the spot the Type-R. Type-R is to be released later this year.
Fact: There is more room for cone movement on the JLs, I've personally witnessed this.
Fact: I've torn my Type-Rs multiple times running off a Rockford Fosgate 500W amp.
Fact: The sub was overpowered by the amp, tearing the kevlar cone from its rubber lining after time. (it lasted roughly 8-12 months this past time around, most lasted 4-6 months before dying when I was out in Arizona)
Fact: The type of music he listens to is very important in determining the sub.

Count yourself as lucky :)

I don't know why the argument over Type-R's anyways, Alpine has never been a big SPL player they are almost always used in SQ. At least they used to be when I used to do SPL a couple years back.

Brandon11983: What amp were you running the Type-R's off of to get 1kw to each one?

Update:

Got my new JL Audio W6 10" installed...I can honestly say its better than a single 12" Type-R running on my 500W Rockford Fosgate (pre-best buy sellout days)

It hasn't even been broken in and I'm making this statement. Sounds better, reacts better, has more visible room to move. I love it.

I wouldn't say that, I just know how to set up and tune a system. I wouldn't be afraid to run 10,000 watts through them if it was possible. The amps I ran them off were Alpine MRD-M1001's. This "visible room to move" you speak of really means nothing. How far a speaker moves is rather unimportant. What is important is how linear it stays within its excursion range. The JL W6v2's and the Type R's are both very linear subwoofers and I don't think the naked eye could really tell a difference in their movement, as their one-way xmax's are pretty close.

My apologies for my blunt and brief reply above. I’ll elaborate on my comments further.
Let me first give you some personal background:
I have worked in the car audio industry for nearly 15 years. Retail sales, installation, purchasing, marketing, store management - I have been involved in nearly every aspect of the industry in one form or another.
I have spent the last 6 years working for a nationally recognized, top 10 retailer of the year - specialist car audio store.
I currently offer some of the most highly regarded brands in car audio - including BOTH Alpine and JL Audio.
I have nothing but respect for both brands - the comments/specs used in the statements below are in no way meant to show a personal bias toward either.
As to the statements made by atomic pinkie:

2) the JL subs have more movement ability, I've torn 4-6 Type-Rs from over-extension with double kick drums.

What is ‘movement ability’? Are you referring to excursion? If so you are incorrect. Per each manufacturers listed specifications listed:
XMAX = Peak linear travel of the cone, measured in inches. In other words, the maximum movement in one direction.
Alpine SWR1241D - XMAX 13.87mm one way, 27.74mm peak to peak
JL Audio 12W3V2 - XMAX 11.7 - 13mm one way, 23.4 - 26mm peak to peak
The Alpine has a greater XMAX. - or as you call it ‘movement ability’
The fact that you damaged several Alpine woofers speaks more of your obvious abuse of the woofer and/or your inability to properly install/set up your equipment. It flat out screams abuse or improper application..

3) W3's have more room than the Type-R, the W6 sounds twice as good as the W3 (which by the way, max out at around 350w (little more, but if you go to a store, ask to see the company warranty information, they have a graph. If you have too much power it will void the warranty.)

I failed to find a specification from either manufacturer that lists how much ‘room’ they have???
My girlfriends apartment has more ‘room’ than mine - Does that qualify her apartment as better than mine?
The JL Audio W6 model number IS twice as big as the W3 - is that how you determined it sounded twice as good? Sound quality is purely subjective - there is NO measurement for it. Telling someone that something sounds TWICE as good as another can be compared to saying hamburger pizza tastes TWICE as good as sausage pizza.

4) 1000W is too much for a Type-R setup. I ran a single Type-R off a 500w and tore it to hell (as stated above), switching to a single W6 10" now (possibly another switch to a 12", which is what the type-r was)

My personal system consists of 1 Alpine SWR1241D powered by a 500W Alpine MRDM500 amplifier. I have owned this since both came out 3 yrs ago and have had NO product failures. See my above comments regarding user abuse and/or improper installation/application.

5) Something to inspect with your subs, do they have a rubber lining to the cone or a foam. JL has foam which improves life expectancy, where as the type-r will seperate after time.

When you say ‘rubber lining’ are you referring to (the correct term) SURROUND? If so, you are again grossly mislead. The debate over foam vs. rubber surrounds has been well debated for years. BOTH have their merits. JL Audio admits in their training sessions (of which I have attended many) that foam surrounds DO NOT last as long as Butyl (rubber) surrounds. Have you ever seen an old home/car speaker with a foam surround that has literally decayed from ‘foam rot’? Its quite common - so are the speaker re-cone kits to repair them. That is the PRIMARY advantage to using a butyl rubber surround - no rot or decay. But, because of the life expectancy of a typical car audio speaker (short), there are technical advantages to using foam surrounds that out way butyl rubber.

However, the poster is not looking to put in high quality subs.

Where in his post did he say this? Both the Type R and W3 mentioned ARE high quality.

Type-R's are near obselete until later this year when they come out with a re-created version. Currently the Type-S is the same as the Type-R of old.

Simply stated - NO. The Type S has NEVER been an old version of the Type R. They are COMPLETELY different designs and ALWAYS have been.

If the poster is looking to get new subs from a retailer, he's most likely going to be offered Type-S' unless it hasn't sold out of it's Type-R or ordered the new Type-S.

Again, NO. The Type S in NOT even being re-designed this year. However, both the Type R and the Type E series will be undergoing an engineering/design change.

He is going to be getting the old type-r, pushing that much power and he (obviously wants boom), will lower the lifetime of the sub considerably.

He suggested he would get a 1000W amplifier to run 2 12" Type R’s or W3's - That’s approximately 500W per driver - well withing the listed min/max power rating for each model. The only thing that would effect the life expectancy of the driver is the end users ability to properly install and use the equipment. Again see my statement regarding user abuse and/or improper installation/application.

I ran 1 12" Type-R off of a 500w, i tore the cone from the rubber lining numerous times.

Mis-use and/or abuse - sorry, there’s just no other reasonable explanation.

Type-Rs are being rebuilt FOR A REASON.

This is actually a CORRECT statement!!!!! The REASON is that they have reached the end of their product life cycle! That’s it - nothing more. The C5 Corvette was regarded as the best vette ever - did that stop Chevy from creating the C6? No. And you assertion that the reason they are being redesigned due to poor performance is pure ignorance.

Most stores only have a warranty that covers a one time issue. Others, like Ultimate Electronics, have a more long term guarantee.

Alpines warranty is 1yr. - as long as the product is purchased from an AUTHORIZED retailer. The 1 time clause you speak of is a policy of the retailer. These policies stem from the abundance of abusive customers such as yourself who shred woofers, and other products, and fail to see their own abuse/mis use as the cause. Ultimate Electronics DOES NOT have a more long term guarantee. They offer extended service plans. Having been a former Ultimate Electronics employee (and a current stock holder) they are a fair value and I was paid quite well for selling them. :thumbsup:

I would highly suggest buying a JL as it will be a longer term investment and you won't have to replace it as soon.

I suspect you will have the same problems with your JL if you do not take care of the true cause of your failures. I have a feeling I would get arthritis from typing if I tried to get you to understand. :rolleyes:

Enjoyable, seeing I had just come from researching on my own and discussing at length with a variety of car audio techs (not salesman)

Are these ‘techs’ the ones that provided you with the brilliant ‘tech’ terms you used above? LOL :crazy:

, furthermore, as someone who has owned a type-r for the past 3 years, I know my sub.

No - you know how to ABUSE your sub.

What part of my statement was crap by the way? That i've torn multiple cones from their lining? That the Type-R doesn't sound as good? That 1000W is too much for two type-r subs? Or perhaps the Type-S sounding like the Type-R right now?

All of the above. Nuff said.

Fact: Recreated Type-S has been released, currently taking the spot the Type-R. Type-R is to be released later this year.

WRONG - The ONLY part of this statement that is correct is that the Type R has been re-designed for ‘05.

Fact: There is more room for cone movement on the JLs, I've personally witnessed this.

WRONG - see my XMAX specs above.

Fact: I've torn my Type-Rs multiple times running off a Rockford Fosgate 500W amp.

OK - ARE YOU PROUD OF THIS????? :confused:

Fact: The sub was overpowered by the amp, tearing the kevlar cone from its rubber lining after time. (it lasted roughly 8-12 months this past time around, most lasted 4-6 months before dying when I was out in Arizona)

WRONG - the user abused the woofer and/or used it improperly.

Fact: The type of music he listens to is very important in determining the sub.

I AGREE COMPLETELY!!!! :thumbsup: But I see how you provided any reasonable suggestions to aid in his choice.

Got my new JL Audio W6 10" installed...I can honestly say its better than a single 12" Type-R running on my 500W Rockford Fosgate (pre-best buy sellout days)
It hasn't even been broken in and I'm making this statement. Sounds better, reacts better, has more visible room to move. I love it.

I like pepperoni and onion pizza - it tastes much better than hamburger and mushroom pizza. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Im tired, have typed WAY to much, and this argument will continue I’m sure.......

I gotta call BS here. The only thing that would make you unable to sit in the car at full volume would be the godawful sound of that little amp constantly clipping.

That said, most amps that claim to put out 1000 watts are likely putting out a small fraction of that. Amps that truly put out that much are not very common and are very expensive. The kinds you find on e-bay and in discount stores are either quoting a wattage they can put out for a fraction of a second at 20% THD, or flat-out lying. So when you hear about people running 1000 watt amps, they're most likely only really putting out 100-150 or so.

You continually push the abuse angle.

I believe in company warranties and let the official retailer handle the installs. I also repeated all of the information I've been given over the past few years. Furthermore, you're writing off my own personal experiences with the sub blowing as my own inability to operate at safe levels. I am a cautious consumer who double and triple checks everything. I've made sure that I am not pushing the sub too hard, with the opinions of 1) everyone in the install bay 2) everyone on the sales team 3) one of the managers who happened to be back there to look at a $10k install happening next to mine.

I didn't go to some run-down back alley install shop. I didn't have a friend 'hook me up' over the weekend.

I'd suggest if you wish to denounce my information you give a call to Tweeter Audio and Ultimate Electronics, and have them revise their training and overhaul their sales/install staff.

The movement points I was apparently given incorrect information about. However, I will stand by the comments made about the quality of the Type-R sub. I no longer trust subs that have it's current contsruction. If you'll notice, one of the first questions I asked was what type of music he listened to. I would never suggest a Type-R to someone who listens to 'sub-abusive' music. Death Metal would be a nice example of such. The wear on the rubber lining vs. the foam surround of a JL is one point you have not contested.

Since you've already touted credentials and I have none but as a consumer, I shall end this conversation before you continue to use such in a manner that is demeaning and condescending.

Call BS all you want, but I helped him install his shit exactly as I already mentioned. It's certainly not the first or last system I've ever hooked up that way, either. When you're hitting upwards of 90dB with one watt, you don't need 1,000 or even 100 to get the job done. Case in point, I have 2 JLB 12" subs in my living room running off my receiver. Each could get 100w RMS at full volume (if my amp was 100% efficient, which it's not), but I'd be nuts to run them anywhere near that. With my knob set on 15 (of 30), the brickwork of my building vibrates on the other side of the building (a large 8-plex). Nothing in my place sits still; my mantle sits above and beside the subs about 3" and some crap I have on top of it vibrate around; the picture above it visibly shakes; and you can hear all my duct work going with the beat. I might be pumping 50w into each of them. Add to that, I can only stand it for 10 minutes or so before I begin to get a headache. If you really think you need (or use) 1,000w and multiple subs in the confines of a car, then go for it. Personally, I appreciate my hearing much more than I do rediculously loud music. My guess would be that you people have already destroyed your hearing to the point that you need much higher volume levels than I do to get the same effect.

Informative to say the least. So more power = more headroom? As one of the select few who actually does listen to classical music in his car, how much headroom should I expect if I wanted to hear at concert-like decibel levels (perhapse 85-120 decebels)? The stock system is more than adequate in my car, but I'm always looking for the BEST musical experience.

Atomic - if you seriously had your system installed by a professional retailer then they are equally at fault for your product failures. It should have been OBVIOUS after the 2nd (not to mention 5th or 6th) product failure that the product you chose (or they recommended) DID NOT FIT YOUR NEEDS OR WAS NOT APPROPRIATELY SET UP.

Its unfortunate that you had a bad experience with an extremely good product. Whats even more unfortunate is the 'professionals' you have dealt with have not addressed the REAL problem and that you have not been properly educated on WHY you are having failures. It seems to me that you are dealing with a sales/installation staff that would rather 'upgrade' you to different product rather than correct the true problem.

Willtravel:
Yes, in theory more power = more headroom. Approximately 3dB for every doubling of power. That doesnt mean that going from a 100W amp to a 200W amp will equate to a 3dB gain in 'headroom'. For a 100W amp to have 3dB of dynamic headroom it must be able to deliver 3dB more power over a given level (variable X). Many quality amplifiers rated at 100W per channel can deliver double their rated power for short periods of time - thus having a higher dynamic headroom.

My advice to classical listeners is simple - buy as much 'quality' power as you can afford. I have never heard anyone tell me they have to much power :)

Will Ravel. No "T". That's basically what I thought. I have no interest in dynamic (or MAX as they sell it) headroom. RMS is all I usually look at. Performance should be expected to be consistant in a quality system. Your equasion needs a starting point. What power amount gives a certian dBa? How many dB should I expect from 100 watts for example? I need both numbers to plug in.

Here is a VERY basic spl/power calculator.

http://ampservice.de/splcalc.php?sen...lculate&lang=e

stick the "t" from "willtravel" into "equasion" and call it even ;)

what i think you might be asking, willravel, simply involves using logarithmic scales. speakers' efficiencies are measured at X dB/Watt @ 1 meter distance. SPL is a unit of pressure, hence it decays by 6 dB/decade (SPL = 10 log(P/ref)) versus power which decays 3 dB/decade (P = 20 log(W/ref)). If you've got a 90 dB efficiency speaker driven at 1 watt, then 1 meter from it you'll have an SPL of 90 dB. 2 meters away will be 84 dB, 4 meters away will be 78 dB, 8 meters away will be 72 dB, etc. If you want 90 dB at 2 meters, you'll need to increase your amplifier's power 4 times - rather than twice - because of the difference in calculating power and SPL. as you can see, it takes alot of power to bump up SPL just a little. If you take that logic one step further, you can see that LOTS of power is a good thing.

ballzor, when you do get your stuff, make sure you get the right box for it also. I learned that the enclousure can make all the difference.

You're a funny guy! Equation* there we go.

That is much more clear. Thank you. Now to find my calculator...

Tonight I put a bid on Ebay for 2 New 12'' JL AUdio 12W3's in an enclosed Box. The box is by JL Audio, patent-pending. I believe the box to be the H.O Wedge, but he does not specify. Also this guy says the RMS is 1000 Watts. I find that hard to believe, from what I've researched they should only be 250. I bid 400 with 5 hours left. If anyone has any opinions on this please tell me, I also need to figure out what Amp to get to go with this set up. Thx

So you're not only buying online, youre buying from a guy online that you feel is 'hard to believe'? Aside from the obivous mistake, the price on that box isnt that great!

Dont you have a JL retailer near by?

JL is not a brand that i exactly like, and the price of that box from some "shady guy" is not something id wanna pay

Of course the first thing I did was go to the retailer here. 2 12W3's run about 479 and the H.O Wedge runs another 200. Now it may be a risk but I have no reason to doubt the seller. N saving that money is the difference between a used 300-400 W amp or a newer 1000W amp. Though I'm open to suggestions for the Amp, the Box can take 600W continuously, so I have to pick around that. Again, any help is appreciated. Thx

Not sure what exaclty u want for the amp, its kind of brand preference and such. However stay away from; spark audio, lightening audio, most pyle stuff, anything without a brand, or anything that sounds alot like a brand you know....but isnt. Basically if you can get it from those "expo center blowout sales" dont buy it.

I dont know as much about amps as I should. I wonder if attaching a 1000W amp will damage these sub's because of the setup with the box etc. Also interested in exactly what to expect from throwing a 1000W on there as opposed to a 600W amp. I definitely have no restrictions on how loud I want it, the boomer the better. I just dont want to damage the subwoofers. Thx

You definately dont want to damage the woofer if you buy them on line - you will have NO warranty. But, if you made a deal with you local specialist retailer you will have a 2yr. warranty from JL. Dont believe any hot air the online retailer blows your way regarding warranty - it is NOT through JL. He may say he can offer you warranty - but HE will be responsible for replacement. When/if he skips town you will be S.O.L.

Any reasonable retailer will try and make a compromise regarding internet pricing. It wont be as low, but it shouldnt have to be. There is value in buying from a brick and morter store.

And do the retailer a favor - if you are planning on buying it online DONT WASTE THEIR TIME AT THE SHOP. Send them an email with all of your questions just like the guy on the internet. When you have a problem with the woofer dont bother the retailer - send your internet seller an email. When you have questions about installation - send another email. BUT - if you want to talk to a human face to face that is willing to help you - buy at a specialist retailer.

Rant off :)

From JL Audios site regarding internet sales.
http://www.jlaudio.com/internetsales.html

I suppose thats one way to look at it. But its that kind of attitude that has stopped me from buying a 1500 dollar system in store the same day. I hadn't let on that I was looking to buy just yet, the guy saw another customer and walked off mid sentence. He never came back, so I mean the customer may be a bother and all, but you never know who's pockets are lined you know. I assume you work in the business, but come on man, you cant assume to sell anything if you dont put a little leg out there. Besides, of the countless retailers all across town I visited, only one of them tried to convince me that buying from the store was the right way to go. Warranty or not, Id rather spend my money on something I had a little bit more control over ya know.

Sounds like youve visited poor examples of specialty retailers (unless of course you visited the big boxes where that type of service is commonplace). I will (and do) spend all the time in the world with a customer who is considering purchasing on the net. My lively hood depends on it these days. Some see the light and some dont.

Once it becomes clear that a customer will NEVER see the light - the buck stops there. I wish them luck on their purchase and let them know I will be glad to be of service should they choose to BECOME A CUSTOMER.

When they ask if I will match internet pricing this is now my canned response:

'Sure! I can match that price - no problem! Here is my business card with my email address. Send me an email when you get home and I'll be glad to begin our transaction.'

Customer: 'What do you mean?'

Me: "Well, if internet price is your biggest concern I will gladly meet your needs. BUT, in order for me to do that something has to give. Our transaction will be handled just like online. We will have to communicate just like you were buying online - email only. I will only be able to provide you with limited technical information since I will most likely have my little sister reply to your emails from home (dont worry, she is good at looking up prices and can read the specs online quit well). I cannot look at your car in detail, or spend time making sure the product you WANT is the product you NEED (I really dont know if the widget you want will work with the widget you already have). I will tell you the product is in stock - even if it isnt - because I can. I will send your order out in 2-3 weeks (thats how long it takes me to find the product on the grey market). The product might be new, might not. Did I mention that sometimes I forget to send the product out at all? Dont worry, that only happens when I have to change email addresses when things get a little 'warm'.

Intermission :)

'If you have questions or problems when you receive your product send me an email. It may take me awhile to get back to you - my little sister does not handle follow up emails and I am terrible at service after the sale. Should you need warranty service on your product please send me an email requesting a Return Authorization number. Once I have sent you the RA # (it may take awhile) you will need to send me the unit in the original box and packaging. Once I have located a replacement, or had my neighbor fix it, I will send it back. I do not accept phone calls or visits at the store. My experienced installers will not answer technical questions or offer advice on your installation. If you find out that you bought the wrong thing after the sale (my sister is still working on the technical advice) I will gladly return it within 30 days for a 30% restocking fee - simply box it up in the original packaging and mail it to me.

I could go on, but if the above doesnt get my point across you will never see the light.
My products and services are a value. Are there those that will never see a value in them? Yes. Will I go out of business because of them? No. But I will continue to try and persuade each and every one of them.

Happy shopping!

Nelson, that was the single greatest thing regarding our type of business I have ever read. Thank you for that.

Seems more like bludgeoning them into acceptance of your point of view than edification.

There are 3 points that bear mentioning:

1) People do not consider the behind-the-scenes ramifications of their purchase. They wanted to save some money and the majority of retailers in any category are incapable of demonstrating their value as they present it as a merchandise-only transaction, not a value-added one.

2) People tend to approach any vehicle related service from an adversarial standpoint, i.e., "You are going to screw me.". In other words, service & accessory shops are not looked at as pillars of community ethics. Whether or not you want to admit it, car audio gets painted with the same brush that car mechanics do.

3) People do not (in general) come to you before their purchase and ask you if you'll do the installation. They may come in prior & shop you, i.e. get your recommendation on what is good to get. They go & find the same product online & buy it, and then return to you for the installation. Is this fair? Of course not. Life isn't fair either.

Here is the situation now. When they first came in & shopped you, you told them "Price X". They found it online for "Price Y". Already you are at a disadvantage because the price you told them initially was 30-50% higher, i.e. you were trying to screw them. Consumers do not consider your overhead costs, only what their cost will be. You then deliver the speech you just wrote and I'd bet the majority of the ones who bought on eBay, the Zeb, or Woofers Etc. walk out of your store, never to return.

And they do what then? They still have gear they want installed so they drive down the street to your competitor (who may have a slightly different take on how to do business):

The customer you just bounced: I bought this from Fly-By-Night-Shady-Internet-Sales, will you install it?

The shop eating your lunch: Absolutely, but there is a 50% labor premium on items we did not sell because we don't know what problems we may run into. If there is a warrantly issue, you will need to work with whom you bought it from to resolve it but, we'll help with that any way we can. However, we'll take care of you in the exact same way we take care of every one of our customers because we want you as our customer long-term. (lowers voice) You know, I might even be able to get you comped on the install supplies too and minimize the sting on the labor!

The customer has heard twice now that what he bought may be no bargain. He heard it once from you but you 'tuded him right out of the store. He's also just heard it from your competitor, but your competitor told him in a way that presented the facts without making him feel like an idiot about his purchase. Your competitor also converted him into a potential long-term customer and told him essentially the same thing you did. Your competitor did one other thing, he put money is his cash drawer.

You & Brandon might want to look into joining MERA. One of their main initiatives is educating dealers how to retain customers rather than alienate them. I understand your frustration on internet sales, but the internet isn't going away. Better to find out how to prosper alongside it.

soundmotor

I don't think Nelson is off at all. Why should we give the vastly superior customer service we can give at the same price as some "fly by night" internet site? I always say if I am to match price, I am going to match service as well. Its only fair. Would you expect to get the same service at the Days Inn as you would the Hilton?

Read it again.

You completely missed the point.

soundmotor

I still stand by it.

3rd alternative to this all, which i happen to like:

thoroughly educate yourself in the matter at hand, car audio in this case. buy gently used equipment from a respected/reputable enthusiast through a forum or ebay at a significant discount. take the time to do a proper install (design your sub-box with a CAD program, build MDF speaker spacers or pods, sand away paint and ground your amp to your car's chassis, etc). you'll end up with some useful knowledge, a feeling of satisfaction, extra money in your pocket, and a better system for the money than your could get elsewhere.

not trying to stiff knowledgable/helpful retailers, but i trust myself more than you! :)

Its that kind of attitute that turned me away from the guys in the shop to begin with. If your sister can do the same job you can online, then I'm just going to talk to her and cut you out completely. What I mean is that I can get a basic understanding of what the vendor may have been studying his whole life from people on the internet. People happy to spin their shit just for someone to listen, and this thread is a testiment to that :]. Again, past the few minutes I spend in the showroom with you, after I buy said item for the higher price, I don't expect you to invite me over to dinner, in this case the relationship would most likely stop the minute I drove away with my car booming away. And just on a note to what soundmotor said, when the one guy walked away from me, I drove right over to their competitor and the only reason I didn't buy from them was time constraints. Why send a letter when I can send an e-mail. Gets there the same way, n I dont have to worry about driving to the post office for stamps :]

I guess my sarcasm wasnt painted red enough :crazy:

Soundmotor - your points are correct/valid. My points were aimed at the '2 percenters'. If they asked for a headache and I said I would hit them in the head with a sledgehammer for free they still would not get it. :lol:

And since you brought it up, I have been closely related to MERA since '98. I've been to nearly every knowledge fest since joining my present employer.

Im sure those of us that have been in retail long enough know there is just NO WAY to deal with every customer that comes through the door in the 'text book' way. I can Eddy Kay the hell out of most people on my good days - but not all of my customers have read his book or been to one of his presentations to know what theyre supposed to act like :lol:

I suppose my position as the customer is just far to obsolete to continue in the discussion. Regardless, still looking for a decent amp that goes with these sub/box combination. I dunno Nelson, might lose customers if you keep sharing your information with us, charge via pay pall a few bucks for advice, though, that might just end up being one of those "shady online deals". Thx :rolleyes:

Ballzor - JL Audio 500/1 - From an authorized retailer - its the perfect amp for your set up . And thats free advice.

^ i completely agree

Ok, thats definitely a good place to start. Would it be pushing these sub's too much to use a 1000W Amp? Ive got the money and I dont want to have these lacking in any way if I can beef it up Via the Amp.

If its a good quality, brand name, 1000W amplifier go right ahead. Just make sure the system is set up properly and you are aware of the limits of the drivers. To much power isnt a bad thing. It puzzles me why people are so amazed and bewildered when they blow woofers. How can you not hear a woofer crying for help when its over driven!!! Its the most gawd awful sound its obvious!

JL uses thermal power ratings vs. mechanical power ratings on their woofers - so they tend to be under rated vs. other brands.

If you tend to be a rowdy listener then I would stick with the 500/1

It all depends on the power ratings of the subs you decide to go with.
Now going off your original post...here is what i would suggest:

If you get the JL W3v2's (I however would recommend getting a single 12in JL W6v2. I currently have that in my car along with the JL 500/1 and it is plenty of bass. Check out the reviews at Car Audio and Electronics. They rated it the best sounding subwoofer they have ever heard. Definitely seems to be underrated when compared with subs of different brands such as Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, and MOMO.) - stick with a 500/1 to power them both. 1000 watts is going to be too much power especially in the upper levels. I know for a fact that a JL 1000/1 can blow out even a gently used W3v2 and have seen it happen first hand (that's another story though).

If you get 2 Alpine Type R's (depending on your price range you might be able to afford the new Type X)- you might be able to get away with a 1000 watt amp. It is going to be a lot of power for the Type R's to handle but from what I have heard they are definitely sturdy subs. If you are truely worried about your investment and do not have a warrenty...go with the 500 watt amp. You wont have to worry about blowing out the subs. Also if you dont upgrade your components, the 1000 watts of bass is going to overpower them with ease.

Thanks for the info. I definitely want to be able to push these amps but I wouldnt want to kill them. It all just depends on whats on the market right here in town. 1000W might be too much, but I still would like to go above 500W. Thanks a lot for this info, btw, the sub's come tomorrow.

I recieved the Subwoofers today. Not a thing wrong with them, Box and subs are all clean, exactly what I ordered. No shady deals, no rip offs. Actually the biggest problem I had was that the Box is JUST too big for my trunk. literally by maybe an inch. I went down to the local store and bought a Rockford Fosgate T500 and a smaller box. I checked the price on the box and it runs retail for 650. So should I sell it on E-bay for anywhere near that price I'm going to have spent less on the entire deal then had I gone to the specialty store. Can't wait to hear it turned on. N Btw, I did have them check the subs to make sure nothing was wrong with them. Worked perfectly. Thx for everybodies help

If you want high quality sound, check out Nakamichi's line-up. If noise is all you want, you can find everything you need at Circuit City or somewhere similar.