Most teen workers...
 

are so unpredictable it drives me practically insane. Back when I was a teen, I was very reliable in showing up to work and doing my job. Nowadays, we have these spoiled little kids who are mentally inferior to my toilet bowl who wouldn't know personal responsibility if it snuck up and fucked them in the ass.

It is so hard to find an employee with any sort of moral integrity within this age group. They're stoned all of the time, including when they come to work, and spend all day every day slacking off at work or calling in sick, playing X-Box and trying unsuccessfully to get laid.

When I do hire one of them, (I have to hire someone), if it's a guy they spend all day on the register freaking out whenever an even remotely attractive woman comes in the store. Falling all over themselves and practically popping a boner right then and there. omg dude she was so fucking hot omg. If it's a girl they just gossip all day long, even right in front of customers. omg she's such a bitch omg.

Then one day they just don't show up to work. No call, nothing. Just fuck you. Fuck you for giving me a job and giving me the benefit of the doubt. Fuck you for going out of your way to make me feel at home and welcome. Fuck you for being a cool dude.

Well, I say fuck YOU, you tiny piece of nothing. Continue going through your so-called life fucking people over and wait and see where you end up. You are so far behind the rest of the world it is almost unfathomable. You're not going to run into too many others that are willing to throw you a floating device. And when you do drown, you will have ammassed a large crowd of spitefull onlookers, who I'm sure will relish in watching you sink.

here's an idea. offer real wages and benefits so you can attract more than just whiny/lazy/useless/other-over-generalizations-that-aren't-necessary teenagers. or interview more thoroughly and check some backgrounds. even better, require them to have prior work experience with positive references...


i would feel bad for you, but you said yourself that you're the one hiring the wrong people. this is your fault, and it's your responsibility to improve the situation.

until then, quit your bitching and live with what you've set yourself up with.

There were a lot of young numbnuts in the service industry even 30 years ago when I worked minimum wage fast food. But in those days the general quality of workers was better because minimum wage was a better wage than it is now. They paid $2 bucks an hour, and you could just about live on it if you were young and healthy and single and didn't worry about insurance. So we got people in their 20s working along side me for the minimum, or maybe a quarter more. We even got people in their late '20s and '30s who were moonlighting for extra cash from the military. The wages were good enough that it was worth it to them.

Could you "just about live" on $5.75 an hour or whatever the fed minimum wage is today? Don't think so. Can you get a lot of decent people for minimum wage (who are legally in this country and trying to lead a decent life)? Don't think so.

Pay more, and find a way to make it work. Good employees should be more productive, maybe they'll pay their way. Oh yes, and pay good wages from day 1; don't make them work their way into it over a period of six months or a year. That way, the job will be valuable from day 1, more valuable than a lot of promises. And job seekers have heard a whole lot of promises from businessmen that never came to fruition.

phred, thanks for your brilliant plethora of ideas. God, I'd never thought of that. Background checks, prior experience, benefits and wages? Who would've thought those things would be part of running a business?

All of your derogatory sarcasm aside, I see your point, but you are assuming I am a shitty manager and don't perform any of these standard procedures. You are wrong.

And I'm posting this in the living section because it effects my living. People like you who are just want to put me down don't help.

so i take it you're leaving. no skin off my back. take care out there, and good luck with the managing thing. i hope it works out for you one day.

heh. the edit button is a great thing, isn't it? if a person dosen't check back soon enough, he'll never see some things people say to them.

my justification for my answer is this: you spend five paragraphs deriding and putting down an entire generation of indivduals because of your poor hiring desicions. i then give a few options as to a solution to a problem that is very obviously frustrating you. they are all good, sensible options, and because you haven't given any further information than that you hate pimply-faced punks, i don't know if those avenues have been explored. take a chill and realize that everything you're complaining about can be remedied if you go about yoru job in a different manner.

(i , however, did see what you said to me, but i'm going to let that slide, because i'm sure you weren't prepared for a harsh reality check and reacted very poorly to it.)

Maybe I should have just said "Good help is hard to find."

Let's face it - the older we get, the better we were.

What do you want in teenaged work? Reliability, or potential. Labour, or efficiency.

I'd be a lot more careful whom you deem worthless until you ask the same questions about your own generation.

It sounds like a lot of these teenagers you are hiring are doing good in the interview so they can get a job and then everything they said they were capable of is no where to be seen.

My manager had a problem finding people in their late 20's who could be relied on. So, she started attending a few effective management classes and learned what to look for when performing an interview. Maybe some of those would help? She learned to ask questions that are not usually in an interview. The questions would throw the person off a little bit and they didn't have a good response because they hadn't had time to reherse what a good answer might be.

As an 18-year-old, this post pisses me off. I work very, VERY hard and try to make sure everything I do is done as well as I possibly can. I like learning and I like being social with my co-partners and discourage them from slacking off. I am friendly and converse with my customers, and when I make a mistake, I apologise and try to correct it. If you have a problem with an employee, you should do what most people call FIRING THEM. Obviously, you don't want to have to put up with people like that- so get people who actually really want to work. Either that, or lecture them for an hour on work ethic. And you know what, your generalisation is crap. I know adults who work like that too, cursing and talking loudly about their own personal woes.

Personally, I'm betting you treat your teen workers like crap. If you had a little confidence in teens (who aren't all stoned off our asses or trying in vain for sex), you would probably gain a little respect.

/rant

Honestly, no one is going to work very hard for minimum wage.

A dead end job is a dead end job. That's all there is to it. Should someone run at a wall or mosey toward it whilst looking for another road?

Let's get rid of the assumption that I pay minimum wage. I don't know where that assumption came from, but I pay much better than that. Let's also get rid of the assumption that I treat my employees like crap, especially teenagers. I have a lot of teen friends. Just because I am venting on my favorite forum does not mean that I speak, act or even remotely behave this way while at work. Finally, let's get rid of the assumptions that all I hire is dead-end kids with no work experience and that I do not provide superb training.

I of course understand that not all teens are worthless and horrible. That's like saying most girls have cooties. In fact, no one is worthless. I generalized by saying "Most teens...." which set off a series of backlashes. Let me rephrase by saying "Most teens that I have employed..." So, this is only related to my experience with hiring people, which I have been doing for roughly 9 years now.

I pay well and employ a wide spectrum of age groups; currently the youngest is 18 (well, was) and the oldest is 43. Pretty equal mix of male and female. Part-time and full-time. The job is retail, which I admit is a bit of a drag, but the benifits are plentifull and there are lots of bonuses based on performance. Plus the schedule is very flexible. I get good strong performance out of most employees, and make fair concessions for those who require them. I hire handicapped, elderly, black, white, young, spanish, etc...and on and on. Everyone is treated equally to the best of my ability. I am held accountable for my behavior just like I hold my employees accountable for theirs.

Having said that, I find it very difficult to find good help in the
17 - 19 (or, high-school) age range. More times than not, (but of course not ALL the time) regardless of how the interview went or how much time is spent training, or how good they start out, their lifestyle ends up getting in the way of work. Calling in sick when they are actually just hung over and that type of thing. This seems typical of those who are not attending college yet. I offer tuition assistance, which brings a lot of young applicants my way. And those who use it are quite often great employees. But they are the minority.

And when these young people quit, (the ones that I've described) it is usually without a proper notice, which can often make it difficult to get the shifts covered. Which leads to this post. Now that I'm all calmed down, I will go hire some new employees, be they young or old. Sorry for pissing anyone off, but it was much better to rant here than to explode at work.

Argh, I'm sorry for assuming. The way you presented your venting just seemed like you thought all teens were like that.

You probably would want to hire me. ;) I always make sure I get someone to work my shift on the RARE occasion I have to miss work. (I've only missed once because I was coughing so badly it would have been gross to work- I work for Starbucks and no one wants some person coughing on their drinks.)

la petite moi,
Sorry for generalizing. My last post should have replaced my first. I was pissed and a little out of line.

LOL that was beautiful dude. Well, for the next... *checks watch* 8 days, I'm still technically a teenager, and I like to think I was one of the better ones. ;)

I know what you mean though; I hear my brother and cousin talking about how they don't show up, fuck work, they jack shit from work, or whatever, and I just kinda sit there like "WOW GOOD FOR YOU". It's awful, but it's so ludicrously bad that I'm beginning to find it comical; especially with your little ode to idiots there. :D

One thing though, is that I think a lot of adults are the same way, except that they hide their laziness and craptacularity (best word ever, because I made it up) with their experience. Also, if you want cheap, good labour, hire some illegal immigrants.

My apologies, Doc. It sounds like you're doing the right things after all. But I really don't think teens are all that much worse than they ever were.

It can depend on the community. In my experience, teens who come from working-class backgrounds where their parents put a value on hard work (because they won't survive if they don't), tend to "get it" faster. Kids who've grown up more insulated from the harsh realities, that's another story.

I find it ashame.

I for one could not deal with my peers when I was a teen in the 80s for those very reasons. I chose to not work in retail at all. I chose to work in a more responsible environment so I worked in offices, which also paid 1.5 - 2x more than retail.

When I did have to deal with it in College, I did it for 1 year as an assistant manager, and then had to just stop dealing with it altogether and went back to working in offices.

I wish you luck.

If you're committed to hiring teens, one thing you might do is to find a responsible community service organization to pre-screen deserving talent for you -- a boy's club, school club, school or community voc-ed program. If it's a good job, they'll be happy to comply. Make it clear you'd be willing to be a source of jobs for them in the future _as long as they keep sending over quality people._

This can work. My sister was a school district vocational-ed administrator for many years, and she developed relationships with employers like this. In return, she refused to give any of her charges a shot at the good jobs until she was convinced they were serious. And she takes a lot of convincing.

not accusing you docbungle, but just stating from experience, I generally try to be as reliable as possible, I don't like stressing myself out, so even when told to rush I still move at a nice steady overall pace (if I rush myself I'll start messing things up, and I've found backtracking to repair what I did wrong takes longer than just doing it right in the first place).

My last job, I had a manager who decided he would use me as some sort of example. I don't know why he picked me out?? I did not like the job, but I continued to show up everyday, and do what I needed to do. My manager set strict restrictions, having to call when I went on break, or came back, and would watch my stats rigorously, and would yell at me for working to slow, when looking through back stats I was working at the same pace I always had. He transferred me to an area known for where people go when manager's are looking to get them to quit, and I lost any motivation when he brought me aside and said "I will find any little reason to get you fired!" I continued to work by his rules, and did what he demanded, no matter how horrible it seemed, till the day he accused me of doing something I did not do (taking too long to deliver product). He called me and accused me of this, and in front of my co-workers I told him that he was lying, and he could FUCK OFF. This was the one and only time I had ever raised my voice at work, and people were rather scared to see it. I told HR about the situation, they said they'd look into it (Yeah right). I quickly found a much more satisfying job, and when I was accepted to that job, I called my manager, and simply said "I'm not going to be into work tonight, or tomorrow night for that matter", and hung up. I would have told him I was not coming in ever again, but if I quit on my own terms I would have had to pay back tuition reimbursement granted to me. Because, of the wording of the tuition reimbursement contract, since he terminated my employment I did not owe the company any money.

I hope I never have to work for another manager like that.

Rodney a great idea... I did the same thing when I needed interns (college students can be equally as bad...)

So I contacted the local vocational school for IT people. I got the cream of the crop and another person to help screen and reprimand if there was an issue.

Yes, I agree with this. We are in a bit of a 'pretentious' area, if you will. More Range Rovers and Escalades on the streets than Fords. Most of the kids seem to be a bit...well... pampered. Which is hard to gauge at first and not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself.

I'm an 18-year old university student, I get the feeling you're taking this generalization a little too far.

I worked my ass off in a pizzeria the last 4 months, which included the summer when our pizza ovens and piss-poor working space made things almost unbearable. I did this and delivered pizza, had a lot of fun doing it most of the time actually, and I'd say I was a damn good worker. I can say the same for the other three 18-year olds on the staff... and most of the same for many people I graduated with.

I think you might just be hiring the wrong kids.

What is the fucking point? I would bust my ass while the rest of the people I would work with didn't do shit. I could close down the store alone in an hour less than 2 people and have it done right. Yet would I ever get a raise. It is a mutual relationship. If employers aren't going to give incentives to those who distinguish themselves then why should we? If anything doing my job right more often than not hurt my chances for promotion, acknowledgement, as when I always did my job it wasn't remarkable however when co-workers got off their asses to toss a pepporoni they get promoted to manager. Employees don't get hard work cause they don't value hard workers or the people. Managment of food service and such often treats their employees as a stack of applications rather than people.

And since you were so pretentious.

I say FUCK you, you shitty ass fucking manager, hiring and let work these shitty as co-workers that I've had to put up with picking up their slack for the past fucking year. For not promoting competition for that is vital for a healthy workplace. Fuck you for not hiring people from within the company and hiring shit ass shift managers that couldn't tell a stove from a freezer and let me teach them how to do their fucking job for the next 6-months where you presume to repeat your mistake you fucking asshat. You think your job is a gift to me? Just as easy as you can pick up another application I'll get hired down the street, so you need to fucking learn that it is a two-way fucking street. If you can't get a quality employee its because you have no place in fucking management, so get your head out your ass and face fucking reality.

BTW I was a Delivery Driver also o.0

thefictionweliv, I certainly hope that was directed at your previous manager(s), and not anyone here.

It wasn't an attack more of a mock of the first post since it is not only the community of 18-19, but its the community of managment as well that the problem lies.

docbungle, did you come from the generation where you had to walk 20 miles to school in the snow without shoes uphill each way and do chores from dawn till sundown every single day of your life, or did you come from the generation where everyone was a potsmoking STD transmitting hippy. Back in my day...

really? last I checked you got wages for the work you did... that's the reward.. that's the pay out.. that's the carrot on the stick.

I do a good job as a good worker because that's what I do. I cannot do a bad job. I have tried and it's just not how I operate. But I get paid to do the job. If I don't get a promotion that's the nature of the workforce and I need to make sure that I have all the right ducks in a row to make sure that when the time comes again the reason for me not getting a promotion is not because I'm missing some qualification.

Now, as a manager, I keep on people who are not working to the top of form. I have fired people for making an excuse as to why something can't be done for an hour and then going to lunch... when they returned from lunch they found their stuff waiting for them in a box.

But ultimately the reason you are working is because you are trading time for money. Period. Today's Pampered Kids 18-19 don't have any values as to where money comes from...

Well, sounds like you know how I feel. You've dealt with the same crap, only from the opposite perspective. The manager you describe is not me, but of course there are many like that out there. And if you are not one of the kids I describe, then there is no reason to take offense, as I am not referring to you.

My two cents on the issue (being 19, and a hard worker... Started at 12 doing hay with my grandfather 6 days a week every summer) is that it is a two way street.

But in the end, the kids have to get through their heads that their managers and boss's owe them NOTHING beyond their current wages for the time they have worked there. If you work harder then all the other kids there... ask for a raise. If they deny it... Find another, better job. YOU are working for THEM, not vice versa.

The problem (I think) in the youth (and most of the rest of society) is a feeling of entitlement. You arnt entitled to anything. You earn your keep in society.

I worked at Bestbuy for three months a year ago (just turned 18 a few weeks ago).

I was so happy when I quit. I did kind of quit suddenly -- no two weeks notice or anything. They didn't give me any hours for the schedule before that, and I already really hated working there, so I just quit. I did show up to work and tell them that I am quitting though. But it was really sudden.

I would say I was a great worker though. Didn't once call in sick. If it wasn't suddenly sprung upon me (ie a call at 4pm to work 5pm-12am), I would go in for extra hours if they needed it. The only reason I wouldn't if it was sudden was because I bused to work. I even went to work when we had a ton of snow outside and I still had to take the bus. I was the only one in my department (media) who showed up.

Onto what is probably my main reason for quitting -- public transportation. It sucks. Horribly. On the weekend I would have to leave my house about an hour and a half early to get to work on time. If I had a car to drive, it would've taken me about 15 minutes to get to work. What really sucked is when they would make me work from about 12pm-4pm on a saturday. I already wake up at 6 am monday-friday, I like to stay up late on my fridays and sleep in till 12 or so on my saturdays. But if I worked from 12-4, I'd have to get up at 9 to shower get dressed etc, then leave at about 9:45 to catch the bus. Then I'd work and get home at about 6. That's 4 hours of pay for what's a nine hour day for me. I wouldn't care so much if they worked me from 12-8 or something, but when I have to spend more time getting to and from work as actually working, it really sucks.

So yeah, I always showed up to work even if it was a pain in the ass to get there and I also knew my department really well. I really disliked the methods of Bestbuy though (walking up to -every- customer and pestering them, also you're supposed to offer subscription services way too often).

If you have any teens who show to work high or call in sick constantly, just fire their asses (if you can, I heard from my friend who worked at a grocery store that basically it was impossible for them to get fired cause of the union). Grades in highschool and attendance might be a good indicator of their work ethic. Maybe ask them how close they are, if they know if they're busing/driving, and if they know how long it would take them to use the bus. Some kids ( like me) might not realize how much time they would have to spend on that bus.

docbungle, I wanna know if you're actually making their job interesting, and rewarding them for doing a good job (doesn't have to be financial). Furthermore, it sounds like you have a lack of control over your employees. Control doesn't have to be punishment, there are other methods. I could go into a whole lot of management theory about Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, McGregor's Theory Y and shit like that, but I have exams to study for. Just remember though, if your subordinates aren't doing what you want them to do, you aren't leading properly, and you aren't controlling properly. And there is where you have failed 2 out of the 4 management functions, which means you aren't being the best manager.

Slim, I don't know where from my posts you get the assumption that I have a "lack of control" or am overly stern in punishment of employees. I am stern when I need to be and I make the job as fun and interesting as possible. There is a limit to all of this, of course, as it is not a party but a job. Things need to get done. Everyone seems to be making excuses for these poor crappy workers. I give them a chance; if they mess up I give them the benefit of the doubt, just like I do everyone else. But if they repeatedly ignore what they are told, or repeatedly miss scheduled shifts, then the playtime is over. I am not here to entertain them. I have a business to run.

And, um, no, I didn't walk uphill in the snow...etc...etc...but a lot of people out there seem to be sliding downhill in the snow, fast, and at the bottom is a...well...nothing, actually.

doc I'm with you...

It's called a job because it provides one WAGES. It's called work for a reason.. not a party, not a good time, not fun time... but WORK.

we have a good time here at the offices... we goof off alot.. when it's time to work it's time to put your head down, your shoulders and back into the work.. and do it. At the end of the week... we still keep millions of TV sets tuned into our channels because like you said.. we too have a business to run.

you obviously haven't studied management.

and what does that mean? I know lots of people who have studied management and are still shitty managers. I don't have my BA or any degree for that matter yet I was a very effective manager that still has people who worked for me asking to make sure to call them when I'm in a position to hire them again.

shitty workers are shitty workers and not necessarily because of a shitty manager.

Well, whatever floats your boat, buddy. I AM management, and have been for some time. Study it all you want...until you're in it you really have no idea what you're talking about, imo.

Anyhow, this thread served it's purpose as a rant and I even managed to have some intelligent discussion with a few people. I'm not here for your approval not do I care much what your unfounded opinion is of my management skills. I have a supervisor who is happy with me, and that's what counts.

Thanks.

docbungle, I completely agree. From my own personal experience in retail this is a mostly accurate view of young employees. Granted, there are a few adult employees who exude the traits you mentioned above, but I have definitely also noticed the disturbing "I don't give a fuck" attitude in young employees.

I'm new to management, but I've already noticed that I can't trust any of my younger employees to do their job. They cannot seem to use their brains, they're inefficient, and they're generally not to be trusted with any sort of important task (and especially not with money). In the past week we fired one idiot who was a no call/no show too many times to count. We've written up numerous employees for losing money, not calling in, abusing markouts and consistently showing up late. They just don't give a flying fuck, and it's annoying as hell.

I have a theory as to why this is. I work in a college town and 90% of my store's employees are college students. They have everything paid for by their parents/financial aid/loans. They do not technically NEED jobs. They basically have no incentive to work, other than to earn play money. They're not being paid poorly (Starbucks starts you at at least $7.00/hr +tips and raises every six months) -- they just don't care. Trust me, if I had the authority to fire these employees, I wouldn't think twice about canning every last one of them.

I, on the other hand, need the money I earn to live on, which makes me work much harder. Although I am the same age as my delinquent employees I show a significantly higher level of integrity and reliability. I give a damn about my job, and working with people that couldn't care less is incredibly stressful and quite enraging.

It's unfortunate that I've had such a horrible experience with high school/college-aged employees that I'm already this jaded. Again, this is only MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE -- I am not trying to insult or belittle anyone reading this who may be a hardworking teen. It is just nice to be able to identify with someone else who is experiencing the same rather worrysome trend among younger employees.

Richard Branson can motivate even the shittiest worker to do a good job. It's all about leading an controlling.

i spent a long time as a manager in the hospitality industry. i found that there are good and bad teenaged employees, just like there are good and bad employees of any age. Usually with older workers you can figure out what you got by looking at a resume or job app and calling references. Kids are harder. They often dont have any work history or even experience and don't always realize that work = money.

What i found is once you have a couple good ones, just let them know when you have job openings and ask them if they have any friends who need a job. I usually found that the kids who were good workers knew who they wanted to work with and didnt often send slackers. I also paid bonuses ($100 or so) if they reccommended someone and they made it throught their 90 day probation.

I dont know what the laws are in your state, but here we have a 90 day probationary period where an employee can be let go for no other reason than 'sorry, this just isnt working out'. if so, take advantage of it.

I agree that often bad employees are the result of bad management but not always. You will find bad employees under good management only slightly less often than you find good employees under bad management.

Right that's why when I go to Virgin Megastores to purchase things I get such EXCELLENT customer service and will never purchase anything ever again from one of those stores. (There's one across from my office here in Times Square and I frequent it alot even though I make no purchases from there.)

I think you need to come out from behind the monitor and books and see what it's really like in the real world. TheFez is right on about good workers banding together...

My two tips for finding good young workers:
1. Ask why they need/want the job. If they are saving up for something big or just moved out and need to eat and pay the bills chances are they are more motivated to do a good job.
2. Know the parent/s. First of all you can get a good idea how the child is like by looking at the parents, and it will be like having two extra co-managers because the parents don't want to look like they raised a useless kid. Hopefully.

There are lots of good teenagers out there, I hope you find some.

That tip about getting good young workers to recommend others is good. In my fast food days, years ago, if somebody good recommended their friends, brothers, or sisters for an opening, management usually hired them. And they were generally pretty good, too.

I've always been a good worker, and I always will be. Ya know why? Because that's what I sign up for every time I accept a job. When someone takes a job he/she takes on a responsibility. That is all the reason in the world to do a good job; because by taking the job you implied that you would work hard. I don't need Richard Branson or anyone else to motivate me and neither should anyone else. This attitude of "give me a reason to do a good job" is bullshit. Here's a tip, motivate yourself.

Make the job fun? Mule fritters (thanks Col. Potter)!!!!

Yeah, I've studied management, and yes it is true that a fun, enjoyable workplace will result in more productive employees. However, that doesn't mean it's okay to be a slacker just because work isn't fun.

Here's how it works. You take a job. You work hard. End of story. If you don't like the job, put in your notice and find a new one. In the meantime, live up to your responsibilities.

Incidently, in my experience, these are lessons that people of all ages would do well to learn.

You tell me this though...would you be inclined to work harder in a job that was interesting, challenging and fun? Or would you be inclined to work harder in a job that was shitty, boring and mundane? I guarentee you would get more productivity in the first case.

Yes, if a job is interesting, challenging and fun, my employer will get that 110% he's looking for. But if the job is shitty, boring and mundane, he is still going to get 100% from me. Why? Because it's my job. As I said in my last post, a crappy job does not give you license to be a slacker.

Now I realize not everyone has the same attitude about work that I do, but that is precisely the problem some of us are pointing out. Lack of work ethic. Lack of responsibility. Lack of respect.

Don't be so quick to blame all teenagers. I work retail, and many of ours are college kids. Some are better than others, but so are the older workers. What I do is a lot more involved than others, w/no slack time, but I like it. I disagree w/the shitty pay/job argument - he/she agreed to do the job for the money paid.
The biggest problems I see are twofold: either the new employee isn't clear about his/her job, or the managers have poor ethics. Before you jump to give the walking papers, talk w/him/her and make sure they understand what they are supposed to do. It should have been clear at the hiring, but sometimes more clarification is necessary.
Ethics can be a harder rock to bust. Ethics work from the top down. Nothing burns me more than to see a manager spending all day in the office on the phone when they should be walking the floor or stockroom to make sure people are doing their jobs. Too many managers want the pay, they just don't want to have to actually manager people.

I want to know why the heck I should expect my workplace to be FUN? The idea that my employeer should make my enviornment fun is completely ridiculous

If you think your job is boring and mundane then get another one....but dont expect the person who PAYS YOU TO DO YOUR JOB to babysit you and make your day like a day field trip at an amusement park.

I get up every morning to go to work.....I get up if I went to bed to late (my fault not my employers) I get up if im not "feeling well" (note that I dont mean really really sick), I go in if the weather is bad (and some people should understand how much I HATE driving in Atlanta traffic in the rain).

Why do I do this? Because I have chosen to have a job and ALL the responsibility that goes along with it and I understand that the person that hired me showed faith in my abilities and my work ethic and I value that faith too much to be a slacker.

I was a very responsible teenage worker. Then there were an equal number who were stoned and stole things. That was 10 years ago.

Teenagers don't change....you have the good and the bad.....just like with us adults:)

it really depends on the environment. when i was managing restaurants i tried to make it fun for the employees. why? because fun and good attitudes are infectous. if my kitchen was having fun and my servers were having fun then my customers were usually having fun.

Have fun working in your sweatshop with shitty conditions for minimal pay.

You have no idea what kind of job I have, what the conditions are, or what kind of pay I make....but I can tell you its not a sweatshop with shitty conditions or minimal pay

I guess your responses to everyone shows the difference in the generations....you were born the year I started working as a teenager....and I had the same ethics now as I did then....my parents taught me what a work ethic was....more parents need to do the same with kids today

As far as having a job goes, I'm not sure a lot of teenagers (the much maligned 17-20 group) or many other people understand the dynamics involved. This is why entry level jobs exist. More so than paying a wage, these type of jobs pay in experience. The experience of being on time, doing a job, responsibility, and accountability when one of these is remiss. This is the foundation of the mysterious "work ethic" spoke about by the ancients. In my humble estimation, this is one of the most important lessons you can learn. As a manager, I never expected superhuman performances out of the people (teen or otherwise) who made near minimum wage. I did however expect them to complete the tasks expected of them. I thought that to be a fair deal. Some of them did not. A lot of people have an entitlement mentality at work, as if the paycheck is the reward for their mere presence. Actual work entails some sort of surcharge. I got sucked into my own little rant here it seems. I will give some advice though. Part of the process of getting a better job entails not being shitty at the more menial ones. Poor working habits will bog you down forever.

I have worked in something close to a sweatshop. I did work for shitty wages. I did it for 3 years and am a better person for doing it. Why? Because it taught me to VALUE all the things that I have now. I didn't have sick days. If I didn't punch in I didn't get paid. If I got hung over and didn't come into work or came in an hour late, I didn't get paid for that hour. If I took time off to go to the doctor, I didn't get paid. When I got in a motorcycle accident I was out for 2 weeks. I didn't get paid. Top it off, I also didn't have health insuranace.

So what did I do about it? I made sure that I had skills that would get me a better job and I applied for better jobs and eventually worked my way up. Let me repeat that, WORKED MY WAY UP.

Understand this too, I had my own consultant company making good money working 3 days a week having fun. Fun all the time. I partied every day and waterskied 3 times a week.

I left that because I knew I had a better opportunity in NYC, so I moved from LA to NYC to take a new job. That didn't pan out and I was left with ZERO, so I took the only job that would hire me immediately which happened to pay me only $4.35/hour.

In that company I also worked my way up. I became an assistant supervisor and then an assistant manager. Pay didn't increase all that much but it was more than $4.35/hour.

Here at MTV we have alot of fun working here. People think that's it's FUN all the time. It's not. Sometimes there's hard work that needs to be done. If we had fun all the time we'd never have anything on the 185 channels we have around the world.

There's time for fun and there's time for work. That's the trade off. I have fun at work even when it's hard because I like hard work. I like challenges. If I had fun at work, how would I ever have fun after work?

If you think that it's supposed to be fun all the time then I guess you don't realize that GOOD comes with BAD.

so I guess you'll just job hop from one to another... and continue to stay in the lower tiers of the workforce. I however will continue to put my head down and work.

now that I've said what I've said, I'm going to put you on ignore because well, considering your posts in this thread, you've got little to no experience in the real world, nor do you have any real experience to bring to the discussion, just theory and assumption.

Of course it isn't meant to be fun all the time. After all work is work. But every now and then a workplace should do something a lil fun just to lighten the stress and as a reward for all their hard work.

So you would put me on ignore just because I don't agree with you? Maturity at its best.

and here I thought my paycheck was what I got for my hardwork........silly me.....I guess I should just go into work tomorrow and demand my fun or sit and pout if I dont get it

plain and simple, workers who are having fun are more productive and more likely to stick around instead of jumping ship at the first job offer that pays a nickel more. turnover costs. if a company can make the job fun they should try to do it.

not for the employees benefit, for the benefit of the business.

the company i work for does nothing to make the job fun, and they suffer from nearly 90% annual turnover. so i try to make it as fun as possible for me. I try to be upbeat, joking around with people, trying to compete to get tasks done quickly, things like that.

of course my favorite part is how it annoys the 'stick-in-the-mud' types who think work should be no fun!!

I think we all got that, slim, and I believe we all agree with you. My point, and the one that I believe others are trying to make, is this: if you have a job where management doesn't realize that a little fun is important and worthwhile, that doesn't give you the right to give your duties any less than your full effort.

As a matter of fact, whether you realize it or not, you've made my point in the above quote. Notice the end of your statement, "...as a reward for all their hard work." That implies that the hard work comes first, then the reward. Not the other way around. This thread isn't about the hard workers out there who have shitty bosses. It's about the shitty workers who don't deserve a reward.

Furthermore, don't place the responsibility of making the workplace fun solely on the shoulders of management. It is the entire staff that is responsible for workplace atmosphere. How can you expect your boss to make the workplace enjoyable when he has workers who don't do their jobs.

If the workers don't work, production and efficiency suffer. Then your boss's superiors rip him a new asshole. You think your boss is going to come out of his office after getting reamed and make sure you are having fun? Hell no! He's gonna come rip you a new asshole. It's circular.

On the other hand, if you work hard, your boss is happy, his boss is happy, and I bet that will result in you being happy as well. This is also circular.

I had a carrot manager and a stick manager at the same job one of my high school summers. The job was set up so that there would be one manager and one assistant on duty so I got to see a lot of managing tactics on the ground level, mano e mano. Both systems had their merits, but in a work environment where I was already motivated (a video game store) I was a much better worker under the guy who would throw me a bone from time to time.

The carrot guy, the store manager would go to one of the demo machines and challenge me to a game whenever we didn't have any customers, which was probably half the time if not more. We shucked about games like two random friends in any other setting. He didn't really care if I read a game magazine when the shelves were straight, the store was clean, and nobody was around. He'd call me on my mistakes if I got caught up in a hurry and forgot to give someone their receipt or didn't get their signature on a credit card transaction, but other than that, he didn't really order me around at all. He'd basically tell me what needed to get done at the beginning of the shift and then work side-by-side with me rather than above me so long as I didn't screw up. When I did exceptionally well on my sales numbers for sustained periods of time, he was the one that wrote up commendations and sent them up the pipe, and he'd tell the assistant managers that had to moonlight for the regulars from time to time that they'd get good sales numbers when I was on the job. The happy-cicle that Obtuse described was our situation.

The other guy, the assistant manager, constantly made a point of asserting his position relative to mine on the chain of command. During our frequent 30 minute-2 hour lapses in business, he would search for jobs for me to do just so I didn't appear to be standing around. If I wandered on a circuit around the store looking like I was trying to look for stuff that was out of place he would forget that I existed, but if I picked up a magazine or, heavens forbid, started up a game on a demo machine, he would scramble for some tucked-away archive box of ancient Game Boy games for me to realphabetize. I respected his right as my supervisor to make me do that sort of thing...after all, it was company time and I was being paid to spend it working, not playing. Still, the thoughts of how satisfied and indeed happy I was with my job were knocked down a few rungs whenever I saw he and I on the same schedule time.

When school started up and the job got inconvenient, I stayed onboard...until the store manager got promoted up to a busier store and the assistant inherited the supreme command of the store I was working it and the extended load of hours that came with it. I politely gave my two week notice of resignation. I was very good at my job and did it happily for mere nickles above minimum wage, and I realize I was an asset to the store. The moral of the story that I taught myself for when I found myself in a management position was that it doesn't hurt to give your workers a few bonuses that you don't absolutely have to if they're motivated and don't need a kick in the ass.

It's not because I don't agree with what you say. It's because you aren't ADDING any reality to the conversation. You are only speaking about an idealism that's not ever going to happen. I agree with you that it would be best, but it's unfortunately not ever going to happen because that's the nature of paying wages to do a job.

As I was walking to work today I saw something that made me think about this thread. I walked past a BMW Roadside Assistance vehicle with a man hunched over the rear wheel replacing a flat tire in the gutter of the sidewalk. The BMW owner was standing by the roadside talking on their cellphone. Traffic at the base of the Williamsburg Bridge in NYC is nothing to sneeze at it's noisy, congested, lots of pollution.. it's shitty working conditions.

This man has to drive from stranded driver to driver and do something that the driver doesn't want to or cannot do. People are willing to pay for service, and they have every right to get that service they paid for. That person changing the wheel he doesn't do a good job, thus the person paying for the service doesn't get what they paid for and they complain that the service isn't worth the price etc. We all complain at one point in time or another about bad service...

I would love for there to be those shoulds in the world, they SHOULD let you have fun, they SHOULD give you more than a 2% raise, etc. etc. etc. but welcome to the real world, it's not the way it is. I'm not saying that one should not strive to bring awareness or change, but to just point and wag your finger without constructive methods or experience to add to this and other discussions is why you've earned the ignore spot.

That's very correct.

I worked on a retention program to keep our technical people at the office. We had stressful jobs, and there was lots of people jumping ship to run to dot com companies. When other companies were losing people left and right, we were able to keep people on for 3-5 years, totally unheard of during that time. All due to retention programs of creating a good enjoyable work environment. (Notice I did not say fun.)

We already had good benefits, good salaries and bonuses.

What did we do to make it enjoyable?

I created a bonus based on knowledge. I called it the $5,000 book report. Basically I convinced upper management that technical people learn on their own as a hobby and habit. They don't ever see any compensation for that, they buy the hardware, they buy the books, software, and they invest the personal time. They just had to document how they learned the technology and how they applied it at the office over the course of 6 months. If they were awarded the bonus it was given out as a 3% merit increase, and a 3% cash award.

We had LAN parties even before there were such things called LAN parties. Sometimes in the middle of a work day when it was slow we'd all fire up another PC and play Duke Nukem across the network. Sometimes we'd not even go home staying until 11pm playing hooting and hollaring.

Once in a while, the managers would get together and take everyone out for dinner and drinks. Sometimes not paid for by the company but from our OWN pockets and we'd let the teams know when it was corporate or when it was personal.

I created mentoring programs for them to learn from more senior technical people in other groups to help great career growth paths.

I also let the senior technical people mentor people on the helpdesk to help create workers that I could eventually promote

I partenered with other managers in other departments to give them some of my team members 2-3 days a week so that my team members would get exposure to different parts of the technologies like the server and network teams so that they could gain experience and exposure. A few of them eventually got hired when openings became available.

Once in a while we'd have pizza for lunch.

Once in a while we'd have afternoon make a sundae snacks.

Every 3 months we did salary surveys and every 6 months we adjusted salaries to keep up with market rates.

I got tuition reimbursement for gettting MSCE/CNA certifications. Most companies would never do that because you'd need to go to an accreditted university.

We'd go to parties with music and hollywood stars that usually only production people would get invited to.

Sounds great huh? Sounds like people had lots of fun?

While we still had almost ZERO turn over for close to 5 years, people still complained about the bonus, "Why can't they just give it to us..."

People still complained about the long hours. Sometimes we'd work from 9am until 11pm because that's what the studios required of us. Sometimes we'd have to travel and work 20 hour days for 3 weeks straight...because that's what it takes to make TV shows.

I had to fire a few people because they didn't want to work, they just wanted to sit a their desks chatting on the phone with their friends surfing the web, or they came in late all the time. I had to write people up for using more then their alloted vacation, personal and sick days because they wanted to take off 1.5 months to go on a long trip or just hang out at home.

I had another guy fake disabilty for 6 months until I proved that he wasn't as injured as he was saying. He eventually left because we put him on modified desk duty instead of walking around in the field. He just wanted to sit at home and collect money.

I managed 15 people and of those 15 people, 15 of them would love to work for me again. They would do whatever it was that I asked of them because they knew that I would never ask them to do something that I was not willing to do myself first. I worked alongside them shoulder to shoulder. While I think I had a wonderful team that was able to accomplish amazing things, of those 15 I'd only pick 9 of them.

I fully understand where you are coming from... yes in the real world my little 'idealism' is not in practice, but that wasn't my point. My point is that as a manager this guy should undertake a few little things to help motivate his staff. It's up to the managers to motivate their staff to do a good job. Money is not the only way to get someone to do work. A few little things to make the job a little more interesting or challenging can go a long way to motivating someone to do a good job. Yes there are people out there who will do the bare minimum to get by, and who dont give a flying fark about their jobs, but it's up to the interviewers to screen out these people to ensure that only the best for the job are hired.

We have a rigorous hiring process here. I even got my team members to be part of the process allowing them to do the 2nd or technical interviews so that they had input as to whether the person was competent or not.

Interviewees potentially met with 4-6 people not including the head hunter pre screening process. It helped weed out a few people I'm sure, but as you can see from my previous post about the incentives I helped create, there were still people who didn't want to work very hard or at least tried to get away with as much as they can.

That's the original poster docbungle's intent/rant, that there's those people exist. You just chimed in blaming him being a bad manager without a nod to the fact that what he was expressing and feeling does have some merit, just touting idealisms.

What do you expect for a crappy salary?

You obviously haven't been paying attention.

i am 17, and i am a manager for a building site now. I worked since i was 15 on £10 a day working over 14 hrs a day.Yea i didnt work full weeks a few time. not turning up now and then.But for that reason was the wages. Try giving teenagers real wages that all the other wokers get...u will find decent help then.When my wages went up as same as every1 elses i worked every day not missing a day. Now look where i am. Dont do much now but ppl do alot of work for me. muhahaha

I might suggest you read the ENTIRE thread before you make comments like that...because all that statement does is show you didnt. That has already been addressed.

::wipes off shoes::

I am glad I found this thread. I have enjoyed reading it.

Slim, I AM a business management major. I can quote Peter Drucker's theory of management till I am blue in the face. I can tell you how Maslow's Hierarchy ends in an individual's self actualization. I can mold a scanario using quantatative mathematics analysis to explain the statistical proof of many business decisions today. In addition, I have been in the staffing industry since I graduated and I have been through more training classes, sales classes, and extended learning classes than one should EVER have to go through.

With that, I can tell you that there is a general trend in the youth of today and a generalization that they do not have the same work ethic that we had just a short decade ago. This is not ALL teens, but it is a recognized trend in society today. You go into most retail environments nowadays and what do you see? I see a bunch of teens sitting by the register, talking to one another while a customer looks impatiently around the place for some assistence. I seldom hear or see a teenager with actual sales training anymore. I walk into FootLocker (where I used to work years ago) and I am not greeted like I was trained to do so long ago. I notice lazy retail associates because they can not associate the amount of money they are making with the quality of work they are providing. As has been said in a previous post, you can't get the fun and rewards in a job if you are not working to earn it. You can't expect young workers to come into the working world and make as much as seasoned professionals. They are in retail jobs, restaurant jobs, and other low paying jobs because these are the opportunities society has put forth to enable our youth to gain some work experience. In my current career, I hear on a daily basis, someone didn't show up for work at one of my clients. No calls, no notice, nothing. You can't blame this on management. You have to look at the trends of hy the quality of work has gone downhill over the past few years.

And again, this is not every young person entering the workplace, but a generalization. I feel that teens today are lazier. I think that they have more money, technology and options available that we did not have and this has made them look at the workforce differently than we did.

I must differ with you there. Business didn't sit down and say, "Let's make low-paying jobs for young people to learn the ropes of the world of work." What has really happened, especially with the advent of mechanisation and automation even in the fast-food workplace and other service venues, is that they've tried to make the jobs simpler so that low-wage children can do the work with moderately little training. Scanners in supermarkets replaced career clerks with superior ten-key skills with sullen teenagers.

Salespeople in clothing stores used to be very knowledgeable. But with the rise of discount clothing stores and the need for low prices and high volume with low profit margin, the retail professionals of yore have been giving way self-serve stories with young help that is trained only to use the registers and stock shelves. Again, the idea is to restructure jobs so that expensive, experience people are not necessary, and so that low-wage youngsters can be employed in their stead. And of course the service is crappy and so is the work ethic, because their jobs are very mechanical and structured.

What I would say to business is that a lot of people _will_ pay a little more for good service. And if you want to give good service, hire whoever proves that they can fill the bill. At a good price. The most consistly good restaurant that I go to, a very popular breakfast/lunch place, has a mainly middle-aged wait-staff of seasoned pros, with a sprinkling of young people who they're hired in from outside and who can make the grade. I pay mostly a buck more for meals here than elsewhere, but the food and service are always superb. Of course the owner is out on the floor most every moment of every day.

And there's a local supermarket that _still_ has old-fashioned registers and hires mainly younger people as cashiers. They're mainly great at what they do, and at customer service, and most tend to stay around for years. Must be the good wages. There are always a few who come and go in a month or so -- the ones who don't measure up.

And there's a local lighting store than hires college students for $10 an hour plus commission. It's a great job, a lot to learn. The problem is, you -have- to learn, or die. I remember going up to a young clerk who was obviously studying product sheets between waiting on customers and I asked him how he liked it. "It's fine," he moaned, "but there's so much to learn!" But he _was_ learning it.

So I say, screw giving young workers "a chance" with a low-wage job. Hold them to a high standard and pay them for it; if they don't meet it, can 'em. Throw 'em right into the fire and burn out the dross to leave the diamonds. I just don't accept training substandard youngsters as an excuse for paying low wages. Taken at face value, it's coddling; looked at more cynically, it's just an excuse to pay low wages.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I completely agree with DocBungle, which is the sad part. I am an excellent employee, and have no problem admitting it. But most of my peers aren't. I am 21 now, but I've been working since I was 15, and yes, DocBungle is correct. Most of the people my age at the time (15-18 or so) just didn't give a fuck. I gave a shit because I like to be a nice person, not necessarily because of a raise or anything. And a lot of people this day and age that are young just don't care about being nice or getting the job done at all. It's true....


The only solution I've found is to bring somebody like me into the picture and verbally abuse the workers until they realize they suck <b>that damn bad.</b> It promotes competition in the workplace, and before you know, the people around you are working hard to show you that they can do just as good of a job if not better than the "perfect employee Redjake."

It works.

So, do you get two salaries? One for you, one for your ego? :lol:

Definitely. And the ego gets time and a half!


Seriously though, it's pathetic how many people in their teens just don't care. I am a dying breed.


I am going to work hard at every job I have. Because I want the world, chico, and everything in it.

Really sounds like you are hiring the wrong teen workers. From experience in my life the better workers had the better jobs. A young worker like me working on my doctorate am looking for a certain type of job. So there may be a lot of good young workers but they are not looking for your certain field.

Slim, since you're so happy to sling shit at others, I have three questions for you:

1. Have YOU ever studied management?
2. Have you ever worked in management?
3. Have you ever worked at all?

As for you assertions that it's the managers job to motivate staff, I say BULLSHIT, managers are there to organise the running of the business. If I catch a taxi, am I expected to motivate the driver to do his job well? NO, the driver does the job, I pay money, which is exactly what is happening when someone is hired by a company. Sure, politeness dictates that I shouldn't act like a complete asshat during the drive, same goes for any workplace.
And yes, I do believe that workplaces should be pleasant environments, but you can't expect it to be a fucking theme park.

Oh, as for Richard Branson, he can't motivate everyone. Virgin has a lot of downright shitty, and incompetent workers, just like most large organisations. Also, their managers responsible for hiring cabin crew (for Virgin Blue) in Australia were a bunch of downright stupid arseholes who discriminated against anyone over 35, regardless of experience or proven track record.
He may have made a lot of money, but to my mind he's just a beard with an idiot hanging off it.

rant
 

hey man hey,

FUCK YOU!!!

i'm a teen worker and have been in this job since i was 16... all my friends range from 16 to 19 and they all have steady jobs or apprentaships... none of us are slackers... dont you fucken dare try and classify the whole generation into that one word "slack" ... thats like me saying that all you old fucks are out dated and should get into retirment homes because your expectations are different from mine...

finally let me say i hope the Moderators dont ban me for this rant but if they do i'm only a rookie so i will create more accounts just to sledge you because it will be your fault that i get banned...

fuck you doc, fuck you. :mad:

Yup. That sure strengthens your argument. :rolleyes:

LOL... My bad about that...

but his comments REALLY pissed me off.

i'll try be more diplomatic in future posts.

Well, I am a teen and I work hard cause I want a better future..im dont play x-box, but a bit of ps2 on weekends.

That is so ironic.....for me it was the oposite! I wanted work...but played x-box and games all the time...because i didnt have work! I was mental capable as well as physicaly and I couldnt find any jobs that I thought I would do well because every one of the jobs that I would have done well would have allready been taken.

Ironic....there just simply isnt enough jobs in my town that i am aware of I suppose..

Although I am an 18 year old, I will not disrespect you in the way that some others have. I will have to say that your first post did make me angry, but you recanted somewhat. I will say this however. I have been at my job for over a year now. I never called in sick, I never slacked off. I always gave 150%. And you know what, now I'M THE MANAGER! After a year of working at the restaurant they made me a manager. I worked hard from the beginning, but like it was said earlier, the little rewards motivated me to work even harder. My bosses are incredible. Once they "took notice" of my hard work it really boosted my confidence and made me want to do a good job.

I realize that you were just venting in your first post, but next time try not to generalize so much

hmmm I how many of us encountered a teen working while shopping on (black) Friday and can make a pleasant report about it?

(sorry to you teens that are responsible...but ya'll are NOT the norm from what I see) I thought if I had to deal with one more teenager in Savannah this weekend I was personally going to through them in the Savannah River....I cant believe some of these kids get paid to ignore you and then be rude when you have the audacity to interupt their PERSONAL conversation either with another teen in the store or on the phone.

UGH

You get what you pay for.

But really, these teens aren't working for a living. They're not working to survive. They don't care if they get fired. So they're not going to put a whole lot of effort into it.
I'm not saying all teens are like this, but some really are.

I find that peole in theri 20's are just as bad or worse.

Geez, no wonder it was so hard to find a job when I was a teen.

I can't really add much to this post, but I'm going to put in my 2 cents anyway. I've been in the workforce for 11 years and have been a hard worker the entire time. My mom taught me to be a good worker...my first job was with her and if I had slacked off I would have been in a lot of trouble. That ethic has stuck with me ever since.

I oversaw (not managed) the cashiers and baggers in a grocery store for about a year. 90% of the employees were 21 or younger. They talked on the phone. They goofed off. They didn't provide even decent customer service. I think that this was caused by several reasons though; low pay, lack of work ethic, and lack of respect for upper management. I rarely had problems with the employees when I was there, because they respected me. I didn't get on them if they didnt need it, I didn't ask them to do anything I wasn't willing to do myself, and I treated them with decency. Other members of management sat on their asses in the office and didn't do a damn thing...that's not exactly inspirational to do some good work.

The other departments paid much better and tended to be staffed by older people who didn't call in sick and made it to work on time; they needed their jobs to keep food on the table. Its impossible to survive on minimum wage or near minimum wage and have a decent standard of living, even if you are single.

I don't know why this sliding trend is happening, but I have been there, I know it's frustrating.

Its a lot on poor parenting, media projection of how teens should behave and the fact that many people just tolerate the way teens behave. I have noticed there is little to no disciplinary actions for a teen vs an older person. I know not to slack off ever, it wont get me anywhere(except in the case of my old job where everyone was fucking everyone) and I always hear my parents in the back of my head saying things about how most people appreciate hard work and a well behaved person.

If you look at the way the media portrays teens today theyre all half assed rich kids who dont have to work, barely go to school and the parents pay for EVERYTHING.

Sometimes it cant be helped, but for 95% of kids it can be helped.

Agreed.

It has occurred to me that marketers gain quite a lot by making parents out to be aliens with money. Parents and other authority figures are the enemy because they say "no." No to things that have an immediate "fun" payback, even if they might be out of budget, wasteful, addictive, etc. Don't demonize the parents or the money supply might dry up. What's cool is "I'm pissed about it but I'll come home at night." Maintains the money flow while ignoring all stodgy input possibly borne of experience. This relationship supports addictions to consumerism and appearance among the least experienced in society while diluting other messages. I'm talking out my butt here but I suspect this contributes to a diminished work-ethic, and ironically, a reduction in earning potential for subsequent generations.

Does this self-correct in one or two generations or is ours the first to turn marketing into a science and culture? Any recommendations for good reading on this kind of long-game manipulation?

/end hijack

I'm going to stand up for the slackers here. 22 year old student from the UK here, to put my opinion into perspective for you.

Ok, so you can take 40+ hours of my week in return for a wage. This part I'm cool with. Sort of. You should be paying me for travel time, really. You're taking away my time, therefore I should see compensation.

Ok, so I'll do the work you ask. It's dull, it's a waste of time but you're paying me, so it's cool. Let's face it, all work outside the public sector* is pointless and is just working to satisfy some fuck's greed.

However, I will not care about your job. I will not leap to attention everytime a customer walks in, because they're just another fucking customer. If they need help, they'll ask. If they want something, they'll buy it. They do not need me hovering over them, suggesting shit to them. If I don't feel in the mood for the ratrace today, I will ring in sick. If I feel that today is a day that would be better spent playing games, I'll ring in sick. If I have an arguement with my girlfriend and need time to sort that out, I'll ring in sick.

You know why? Because the mental wellbeing and satisfaction of the individual, comes far above your dirty little desire to have money. And the fact that society espouses the opposite view, is insane.

You hit a nerve today, dude. I just got fired for taking personal time off.

On this tasty little tangent
Here's a little point for you, maybe if you gave these kids something worthwhile to do, they'd have a work ethic. Instead of working to make some distant boss richer, how about giving them the chance to effect positive change within our world?


* I may or may not be using the phrase correctly. I'm talking about stuff the society actually needs. Like peeps to process taxes, benefits and such, doctors, cops etc.

I really hope with that attitude you're not surprised you got fired. When you accept the responsibility of working you are accepting all the things that go with it. Did you ever once consider the reprecussions of calling in sick just because you didnt "feel" like going in (besides being fired I mean)? Did you ever once consider who else you might be inconveniencing because they had to take over for you?

It sucks, but a large part of growing up is learning when you just gotta do something. Might not be what you'd choose on an awesome day, might even be painful, but it needs to be done. Most jobs, even the best, are like that at one point or another. With many jobs not in your "dream" category it'll be most of the time. Figuring out how to smile & know you're working for the big picture makes it worth while, and it gets easier with time. Even a few victories (kudos, raises, fixing stupid problems, helping the helpless) will make you better at finding good moments. They build on themselves.

If you just got booted I know the ears probably aren't completely open, but believe me, it'll work eventually. Just try thinking long term. Also, and you might hate this right now, being fired or laid off is an excellent time to make a move upward. The opposite of sitting on your butt in a comfortable position. (been there) Treat it like a bent favor. Figure out which parts of the job you could tolerate, maybe even enjoy, and beat the pavement. I'm no *&#^#(*& Tony Robbins but I have found attitude is critical. Sometimes you just have to work at it in reverse.

Alright, so my initial post was a vent of sorts. Most of the content is still valid, but could have been phrased less angrily.

Quick caveat: I've only been working for around 5 years. I've had around five jobs, four of which I left after a month or so (or got fired from :) ) and 1 I held for 3 years. So I understand that I've not seen the whole damn thing yet. I am considering ways of not making the Man richer, but they require cash and such beforehand. All I want is a job that isn't too offensive for a while, and doesn't have motherfuckers who think they own you because you work for them.


I'm never suprised by it. I always make sure the mofo's get preached at first. Hopefully I can spread some enlightenment.

Sure I have. When I was working as a security guard, it meant all those shiny cars in the car park weren't being watched every 15 minutes. When I was an office manager, it meant noone was there to watch the wage-slaves mouth ritualised sales bullshit down the phone to strangers. In fairness, most of my limited work experience hasn't required 10% of a human consciouness. It's a waste of 40 hours of human life (the only thing worth a damn on the planet). Get a fucking voice recording to make sales ("This is a sales message offering you BLAH, that does x, y and z. Do you want it?", and a camera with a gun to watch your car (a little far off, yet, but you appreciate the notion). In my experience, with most worthless private sector jobs, the only people you inconvience is a customer. A bit. I appreciate that if every cat felt as I did, the system would break down, and this may be scary to some, I on the other hand, have no problem with destroying consumerism* ;)

It's a nice thought but, I utterly disagree that the big picture we're working for makes it worthwhile. I see the big picture as us all working to make a tiny portion of the population richer. This is just wrong to me. I believe what you refer to as "gets easier with time", I call "compromising your beliefs". I'm not a zealot and I am perfectly to listen and compromise. Except when I'm right. This way doesn't work, really. Because the Man always wants more.

I appreciate your comments, dude. I can see what you're saying, but I believe that the moments of being a worthy person are fair outweighed by the harm of allowing the rich to get richer. My dad's a freelance programmer, working for vodaphone. Now part of his work is developing our communication networks, improving and stabilising them, which to my mind is a Good Thing. However, the reason the Man is paying him to do his job, is to bring in customers to make the Man more money. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still fucked up, dude.



* Some days I do, others I don't. I appreciate that my way of life would be radically changed, and in some ways harmed. But it is my belief that something better will come from it.

It all about accountability.....obviously some people understand what it means and some people dont.

Its the people that dont that my tax dollars (here in the US) pay for when they go on welfare cause they dont "feel" like working. Dont get me wrong....government assistance has its place....I know there are situations where it IS needed, and I pray Im never in that situation....but anyone that has been anywhere near an unemployment office, or behind someone in the grocery store using WIC stamps knows exactly what I mean about the "unaccountable" ones.....had those same people been taught a work ethic and didnt believe that their job "owed" them the tax dollars could be better spent on those that are REALLY in need of help.

It really infuriates me that someone thinks their job needs to be more understanding because they want to stay home and "play games" thats what earned vacation days are for.

You'd say I don't understand accountability.
I disagree: I believe by working according to this system's ethic I can be held accountable for supporting this system. "All evil requires is that good men do nothing" and all.

I've been on the dole (UK unemployment benefits) and hated it. Not because I was living off the charity of the government, cause I felt I was getting all that money I was taxed on my fags back. I hated it because they never gave enough to exist. Seriously, you try living off £55* a week. Just because you are unable to find work doesn't mean you should starve (yup, couldn't afford to buy decent food), or be cold (yup, couldn't afford to have the heating on), or have a shitty time. It forces those on the dole, who have genuine difficulty finding work**, into a situation were they have even less chance of finding work. In my case, I didn't have the cash to get some decent threads for an interview, which really helps with getting a job.

But I'm not the people you're talking about. I didn't go on benefits 'cause I felt like it. You can see my sorry story below.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you have to work forty-odd weeks to get four off? Would you say that four weeks of free time was worth the forty-odd weeks working?Doesn't it seem weird that our society is geared to making sure people spend the majority of their lives making the rich richer? I'm of a very different mindset to you, my belief is that humanity's purpose is to have a good time. We are here to party. If there are people who's environment prevents them from partying, it should be changed. That is the work I am prepared to do.

As a reference, care to put your age in a bracket? Nothing too specific, just the decade you were born in. Where's Ga, btw?

* About $105.

** Personal experience. I lost a job because of a whacky rape allegation. Their fucking reason for firing me: "You're a temp, and you'll need time off for court. Time we're not prepared to give you. Bye." So, I lose my job because of this, a massive blow to the confidence. Then the dole office can't understand why I don't really feel motivated into getting a job. Bear in mind that most job applications ask about criminal convictions, so an honest mofo like myself is going to ask whether being arrested and waiting for the damn thing to come down needs to be noted. Imagine how many jobs that lost me, before I had to compromise and lie. You can understand when my liberty is threatened, my social life destroyed and my honour besmirched, I'm not going to consider cleaning toilets. Life's bad enough, you know?

As is apparent in my profile, Im 36

Where is Georgia? Its in the US in the South.

Your post said that you were fired for taking personal time off after you went into great detail as to how you decide if you wanted to go into work or not, so how do you expect anyone to have have a different view.

I used to think life was about nothing but partying and having fun....and damn, just like you I couldnt keep a job either, (until I was about 20)....then I learned about accountability, not only to myself but society as well, in other words I grew up.

Dammit, I always forget about profiles. Thanks for the info, it does but things in perspective.

I may have given the wrong impression with that little diatribe. I don't wake up on a monday and go "Is today a good day for games? No, let's go to work" in a process-of-elimination-style-affair. I wake up, and 75% of the time I waste my day at the job. It's just that the 25% I take off shouldn't come with the "HOW DARE YOU NOT COME TO WORK, WRETCH" attitude that's so prevalent in business. I take issue with the notion I should feel guilty for this. You'd think they'd realise the job was terminally unrewarding and that an intelligent chap like myself has better things to be doing.

Ai'ight. So we've reached this point of the topic.
You really don't mean "grow up". What're you're actually saying is: "grow to accept". I'm looking for a way to stay in this society, whilst being the person I am. The advice about "growing to accept" may even get used one day ;) But it's not my ideal state.

So I've got my PoV, you've got yours and never the two shall agree. Ho hum.
Nice talking with you, anyway. I'll stop ranting now.

* I can keep a job though. Held a damn good office job for 3 years (I was office manager no less), but had to leave due to educational commitments. I can pretend to be a wage-slave.

Techno, is integrity a part of your ideal state? How do you reconcile accepting jobs where people or companies compensate you for performance when it sounds like you have no intention of performing?

Commitment is a pretty basic piece of human interaction. Whether warming a cubicle or building homeless shelters, if you aren't holding up your end of bargains - being true to your word - you should expect to be looked upon as unreliable, inconsiderate, irresponsible, etc. If you defend that as a reasonable course, it's very difficult to take you seriously.

At some point you've got to come to terms with the fact that society is a bargain. Compromises for the common good. Find your balance point and use the inevitable crap as opportunities for growth. The alternative is antisocial standards and life at the fringe. Works for the occasional guru if that's your thing.

If you really detest the idea of wages, start your own business. Owning a business and massaging the stock market are just about the only two ways to make your own living in this world if you don't want to get paid by a business owner, a welfare officer, or your parents. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate. People pay for legal service but they pay for lawn care too. The lady that cleans my parents' house brings in a couple thousand dollars a month just hopping from client to client, and I think she's doing just fine not having seen a paycheck in however many years she's been doing it. She's got way more would-be customers than she can accept, and they're paying top dollar to have her wash their towels.

Of course, she shows up every time she's scheduled to. And she works until the job is done. And she does the job well. And I suspect that there was a tougher time at the beginning of her venture when she didn't have enough customers to clean two houses a weekday, rotating through them every two weeks. These customers were probably unwiling to pay her more than they would anyone else who walked off the street until they saw how hard she worked, too.

She's tried to hire some help and expand her customer base a bit but, wouldn't you know it, it's tough to find people who do a thorough job even when they don't feel like it or realize that the world will go on if they call in "sick". Many of us would probably be more in our "ideal states" if we only went to work 75% of the time, but that probably sounds laughable to the people that busted their butts to start up the businesses that hire the rest of us.

I heartily agree that even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. Yet, if you think you're too good for your job, you'd better prove it by finding or creating a better one.