Xenomorph...

good statement of starting one's own business...

why is that a good statement? Because these young "slackers" (for lack of a better word..) will fail miserably.

Why? because they don't have the ethic to begin with...

because in the beginning of the business cycle, the most crucial where they have to spend many hours pounding the pavement, making phone calls, looking for solicitations of work... they won't bother.

Techno won't bother to do "above and beyond" for wages, why would he do it for the "promise" of future business or contracts?

continuing from cynthetiq.....they also wont realize they dont come first

1st hubby and I had our own business for 11 years.....we started it in 1990 up until 1997 we were lucky to get one paycheck a month from it....vendors and employees always came before us....we never went out....we lived on sandwiches and his mothers left overs....I shopped at goodwill or made my own clothes (Im not complaining so dont take it that way) work days were 6 days a week minimum of 12 hours per day...in other words we busted our ass for the "american dream" I can honestly say that now that the business is gone and I (and him) are part of the normal rat race....working to make someone else rich...we have more money and time to enjoy it than we ever did.

Hola peeps, my isn't this a fun thread?

It is, to those I respect. It's a bit wishywashy admittedly, but here's how it works. I don't see the need for integrity when dealing with what I regard as wrong. A prime example would be my debts to various banks. I have fuck all intention of paying it back, ever. They don't need it, they're not suffering because they've not had it back and as they're an organisation founded on the concept of greed, fuck 'em. However, I also owe money to friends, which has been regularly paid off. It's just a question of respect. If you act like a good person, I'll be groovy with you, act like a money-loving-mofo and I'll take the piss.

Here's the mad thing. There's more of us than there are them. So why not do exactly that and live in your ideal state? If we all say "No, fuck you" together, we win! As I only work 75% of the time, so should you and so should everyone. We're not getting any happier working these 40 hours a week. So lets make a better way.

Amen. Signed on with a new recruitment agency today, fucking rodents. Hopefully something not too insulting will come my way.

In fairness, most of my problems with jobs are due to the innate screwiness of capitalism and the type of job*. Maybe with a decent, worthy and inspiring job, I'd be less angry and willing to put in more effort than waking up.

* I've been working in fucking marketing.

I see.

So the only time you are cool with someone is when you want something from them. So the moment you don't want something from someone... fuck them.

As far as the banks are concerned etc, I guess then you've got no concerns about buying a home, financing a business, buying a car, etc.

Again, you are proving more of a reason as to why this thread exists.

Nice.

This is the attitude that the original poster is refering to. If you are practicing for something better then practice like you expect to play. This isn't kintergarden. It's called earning a wage for the work and effort that you produce. Just because you are starting at the bottom of the wage earning scale doesn't mean you shouldn't put forth effort and work like you would want someone to work if you were writing their check.

There is no honor or personal integrity in treating your employer to minimal effort for your minimum wage.

There is nothing worse than this attitude. I hate when I got somewhere and just because the person is in a lower paying job, they treat me like shit. thats just uncalled for. would it KILL you to smile? would it kill you to learn a little about the product you are selling or maybe give 1/2 a crap about yourself and your job? argh...this thread brings up some anger in me :)

Wow, what a well thought out and intelligent post that clearly follows the rules of the TFP and CONTRIBUTES to the respectful tone of discussion here. :rolleyes:

I submit that there is no honour or personal integrity in working for minimum wage. It is a simple exchange; money for services rendered.

The prostitution business is an excellent model of this. When you pay $20.00 for a blow job, you're only getting a $20.00 blow job.

If you want the hooker to jiggle your nuts a little, caress your balls and use her/his tongue in a special way, it's going to cost a little extra. That's not unreasonable or without honour, it's just the nature of the business.

You seem to equate the ability to make a load of money with greed, Techno. A friend is a friend but a bank is "The Man". The Marxist image of a fat guy with a top hat sitting on a pile of bags with the dollar sign on them is convenient and easy to deride, but do realize that banks and big corporates and, yes, even government agencies are composed of working people, the majority of which are not on the board of directors of a Fortune 500 company. The bank owner gets his home in the Bahamas and will never have to go to bed worrying about paying the rent or holding his own in the job market, but that's in exchange for the jobs he's provided his employees with. He hires white-collar financial consultants and gives them thousands for every decision they make for him, but he hires people to sweep the floor too.

The fact that some people have managed through whatever combination of luck and brilliance to find themselves on the top of the fiscal heap does not make them evil or out to get you. They would probably like it if you agreed to the terms of the loan you signed up for, though.

The workers of the world are, sadly, not going to unite. I don't mind doing all the work that I agreed to when I accepted employment, and unless I'm sick or unable to transport myself to work, I'll show up. This is capitalism. The worker is protected here in the United States more than he is in Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations", but we're still in a relatively free market economy and labor is a commodity on that market. I don't manufacture a product, so in order to make money I provide a service. It would be bad business practice for an employer to retain me if I called in gaming every four days, just as I consider it unethical for me to do so.

As for honor and integrity, I think the issue is simple. If you call in sick and you are, in fact, not sick, you've lied, dishonored yourself, and compromised your integrity. It is a simple exchange, though, and its usually implied if not overtly stated that the worker is actually going to fulfill his end of it, just as the employer does. The world would go on if I got 75% of my paycheck, but that wouldn't be very sporting of the employer, would it?

Ouch. Fair enough. Not the way I wanted to sound, but on consideration, that's the only way it's going to. It's a flaw, and is a relatively shitty way to act.

People remind me of this, and it never bothers me. I've never really wanted a car, the home thing I'm sure I can sort out before I'm actually interested in buying a home (a good 8 - 10 years away) and financing a business as you may have gathered, isn't my style.

Fair cop. Was spouting angry "I just got fired" shite. On the other hand, the people I've encountered when just a small amount of money is involved who are (I'm being really, really polite about this) so awfully mercenary leads me to think that the evil capitalist image (sans monocle and top hat) isn't that rare.

If I could call in and say "I need a day off because I've been too tired to socialise. So I need some socialising, you know, to be a happy and productive worker." then there'd be no lie.

Btw, I'm not off every goddam day! In the first few weeks of a dull job, maybe one or two times (adjusting, you see).

Whilst I realise the comment's not aimed at me, am I furthering to the topic of discussion and being respectful in the TFP's opinion? I'm curious and realise my position is one that draws a fair amount of ire. You may call me a twat, if needs be ;)

What's funny is that you bitch when an employer does this to you, but you think it's okay for you to do. You are irresponsible, lazy and unreliable, so the company gave you the finger. And they were damn right in doing that.

What work ethic! :rolleyes:

Au contraire Master_Shake. You may not feel there is honor in minimum wage employment but in my opinion you are flatly wrong. There is great honor in accepting work from an employer who is willing to pay you the going market rate for the product or service you provide. There are low skill jobs out there that are worth while forms of employment that happen to pay minimum wage.

Having personal integrity when you are working one of these jobs is to give it your best effort, be courteous to your employer who is signing your paycheck, your customers, and your co-workers. Being a malcontent has no place in any work place regardless of the wage that you EARN. If you want a better lot in life then there's no better place to start learning how to achieve that. Practice during the rest of the week the way that you plan to play on Sunday. Those life skills you learn as a teenager in a minimum wage job will carry you much further than thinking ... well this is just a minimum wage job so who gives a fuck all if I even show up.

If that's your approach to employment now as a job taker vs. a job maker I would have no reason to expect you would behave differently if I paid you $50,000 a year vs. minimum wage. You would still only feel that you deserved more so your effort would still be half hearted. Instead of focusing on learning, improving your skills, developing strong relationships with others in your field, and finding more ways to increase your value you would still be dithering about not being paid what you are worth.

I've seen this unfortunate attitude numerous times. Not evey new college grad is like this but I've seen it many times and it ends in the same sad song way. They leave my company in a blaze of glory about how they showed us...and ya know what. We're much better off without them because those that choose to stay do so with a passion for making the most of their ability and delivering the most value possible to their clients. It's a fantastic formula when it's properly applied. I suggest you try it.

I also could not follow a bit of your logic in the remainder of your post regarding the ilegal acts of a prostitute. Perhaps it was meant to be funny. In either case you missed the mark with that analogy and the spirit of this thread.

I think you might find some answers about childish teenagers in this book.

Id also have to say that its NOT just teen workers. its workers that are in the unfortunate position of working for lesser wages. I dont care if you are 16 or 60, if you are behind the counter at a gas station or working at the supermarket making minimum wage, that doesnt give you the right to treat people like garbage. I dont think we should focus only on the young. many times its full blown "adults" that have this attitude as well.

Right, right, right. Those life skills like being exploited, taking shit from people and hocking french fries and sneakers with lights in them. Dude, I worked at a fast food joint back in high school and the only thing I got out of the experience was that I never wanted to work in fast food again.

I now work for a monolithic insurance company. This company's goal is preventing people from using their insurance that they have purchased. I am a cog in the great machine that is designed to prevent people from understanding their policies.

My job exists, not to provide a better product or contribute to society, but rather to hurt people and cause pain so that the rich fucks at the top of the heap can have a few more quarters in their bucket at the end of the night. What is honourable about this? I do it because I get paid, not because it is fufilling. That I approach my job with some disdain should not be surprising. That I manage to do it at all should.

I am not a good person, and I don't expect anyone to have pity on me. But in what fucked up world is it right that I earn more money than some illegal immigrant working in the much more difficult food service industry trying to support his family?

And the logic of the prostitute goes like this:

For $20, you can probably get a blow job. But the hooker is only interested in finishing you off as quickly as possible. She has to blow a lot of guys to earn enough to keep her pimp off her back, so she doesn't have a lot of time or patience to deal with your specific issues.

For $500, you can get a blow job and the hooker can take her time with you, providing the full service you want, and doing those little extras like talking dirty to you, or finishing with a Cleveland Steamer.

It's the same with retail or fast food. At McDonald's, where the employees earn shit, you are a number in line. They have to move you through the door so more people can come through. They have to sell a lot of $1.00 hamburgers to make the rent. They are trained not to deal with specifics or details. Every burger is made the same. When you hold up their line they are unhappy, because they get shit from their manager for taking so long later on. That this attitude spills over to times when they aren't so busy should not come as a surprise.

Accordingly, at a more expensive fine dining place (Not Denny's!) you should expect a little more service. The waiter should come by to refill your glass more often, and the food should be of superior quality. But you have to pay for it accordingly (in both cost and tips).

I don't know, maybe you are right. Maybe I should just do my best for the company. Yeah, it really is important that I find a way to deny that Allentown couple benefits. I mean, they'd be receiving medical treatment for the rest of his life! What's inoperable brain cancer weighed against the interests of the company. I mean shit, he's going to die anyway. Should my employers suffer some economic losses just so his family can hang on to his nearly vegetative carcass a little longer?

No, you've convinced me. I'm going to approach my job with much more vigor in the future. I'll make sure those bastards don't get one over on the system.

Ok, so this was directed at my comment where I said: "Hey, I am a twat, and this is a shitty thing to do". It's nice when so mofo feels the need to still jump and down on my head for it.

My work ethic. Which is different to yours. My work ethic that tells me a minimum wage job is less important than a human's happiness. Why must I respect yours, when you have no respect for mine? This is what I always find difficult about this topic, I'm willing to talk, listen and even learn. Then there's folk on the other side just want to hegemonise all the little worker bees.

Bollocks. Most of the pro-slacker poster here has stated that if the job was interesting, they'd work more productively. IMO a $50,000 job should offer some intellectual stimulation so I'd be willing to show up 100% of the time.

It's an interesting read (so far). I liked this quote

No, it was directed at your post where you complained about being fired because you're an unreliable worker.

Out in the working world, employers expect a certain amount of work from their employees. It is fairly common that most employers expect their employees to show up and do the work that they agreed to do.

You, on the other hand, expect employers to cater to you, and you disdain job that aren't good enough for you.

Sorry if it sounds rude, but that way of thinking just screams of immaturity and laziness.

Ladies and Gengleman I present Exhibit A.

Work hard, work smart and develop your skills so that you can earn a better than minimum wage living. Contribute to the best of your abilities in any job that you willingly take on and be a positive influence on those around you. The rewards you reap will be far greater than those that are sown by malcontents who complain that it's just the "rich fuck's at the top" way of keeping them down by only paying minimum wage for a job that they willingly took. Or perhaps as in this case the individual would think that there is no honor in working for minimum wage so he/she just sits there and complains about it maybe not even taking the job at all.

The choice is yours. The formula is simple. If you take the job then do your very best at it. In that there is honor. In that there is dignity. In that there is personal integrity. You can certainly pass on the job and apply for one that pays more. If you have the skills and talent and drive and desire and dedication then you will be rewarded. If you have the patience of a piss ant and the attitude of a derelict then you will be passed over.

I worked at a fast food restaurant when I was 15-17. I started off with a positive attitude knowing that if I work good and hard, I'll get decent raises.

Wrong.

I busted my ass, was nice to every customer, and come raise time, I got a fucking 30 cent raise. Thirty fucking cents... after that, I just stopped trying and caring. Guess what? Next time a raise came, I got MORE of a raise than I did the first time, so I quickly learned that it really doesn't matter how you act toward others. All they care about is how many people get served and how to quickly make an extra buck (for example, "Would you like that super sized for ONLY 40 cents extra?"). Employees and customers are only numbers, unless, of course, a customer complains.

Then they are given an apology and free food. This is rare, though.

Generally you learn that 99% of your customers are inconsiderate assholes. Unless you're weak and simply take whatever people dish out to you "because it's my job", you learn to resent them and the job and see them for what they really are. Respect must be earned. Just because I was working behind the counter doesn't automatically mean I have to wipe your ass for you when you talk to me. I won't be rude, either, but if I detect a snobby or arrogant attitude, I'll treat you like the number you are. You know what you're gonna do? You're gonna deal with it, because trust me, a fast food employee dishing your attitude right back at you won't ruin your day. If it does, you have problems.

That was my fast food experience. Now I'm a computer programmer. While I don't deal with people nearly as much as a fast food job, I get them on occasion when I have to customize someone's application. I'm respectful, but if at any point they disrespect me, they get hung up on. I know some people don't agree with that, but I treat the customer like I treat any other person: you respect me, I respect you. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. Instead of disrespecting them, I just end the call. Easy as that.

Lately, I just refuse to answer the phone and stick with email.

Throughout the years, I've gathered enough skills and experience so that I'm a pretty valuable worker. Not to brag or anything, but generally whoever my current employer is would be SCREWED if I just up and left.

I've learned to use this to my advantage. I don't take advantage of it, though (if that makes sense). For example, I'm salary. I've had bosses/managers who've had the nerve to act as if I HAD to work 60 hour weeks. Sorry, it's not happening.

Also, if any boss or manager treats me with disrespect, they get it right back. I'm not afraid to speak my mind, because yes, it's a business, but I'm a human with feelings first and foremost. They KNOW if they fire me, they'll be SOL.

I think workers need to eventually take this position, because it will finally end all the "Hey, I'm the employer, you have to do devote half, if not more, of your waking life to make ME money!" bullshit.

I'll say then that you didn't read my post...

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...postid=1490883

I paid my staff an average of over $55,000. They got to hang out with rock stars and entertainment talent all the time. They got to go to free movies, rocking parties and clubs... and what did some of them do? Still be slackers...

How is there honour in making other people rich? How is there dignity in serving congealed fat as food to children? or mopping the floors of a bathroom?

The Nazi's presumably took their jobs very seriously, was there honour in that?

And have you ever done those jobs? I did while in high school. Those jobs, and especially any jobs dealing with the public, are hell. There is no opportunity for advancement in those fields. They are dead end jobs, designed with high-employee turnover in mind. Unlike Stompy's computer programming job, these jobs can be done by anybody. If an employee quits, they just hire an illegal immigrant and pay them less money.

People take such jobs because there aren't other alternatives. I didn't work in fast food because I wanted to, I did it as a means to an end (a way to earn money to pay my car insurance). Not everyone is lucky enough to find a job he/she likes to do. The porn industry requires certain physical attributes not everyone has, and not many people get paid to sleep and watch TV.

That's nonsense. The richest people are usually the ones who don't work, they live off trust funds or family connections (George Bush, the Kennedy family, etc).

The way to earn more than minimum wage is to keep your head down, not risk anything, and just do what you are told. But you will never have control over your own destiny if you do that, and many people don't find that a satisfying way to live.

But hey, don't get me wrong, you'd probably love me as an employee. I always show up on time and I do everything I'm told. I even put on a happy face at work. But deep down, I know that the company I work for, and me by extension, is doing evil work. I resent it, but I also recognize that it's too late in life to try and do anything different. It's not hard to make money stealing from other people, but it's hardly just.

That's a bunch of stinking steaming crap.

Why? Because there are others out there who did climb the ladder by starting at the bottom, from Mel Karmazin to Carlos Gutierrez (now Commerce Secretary), Colin Powell, et. al. There's plenty of people who worked their way to the top. Even just looking at the dot com days of the "slackers" that moved vs. those that didn't. The ones that did are millionaires if not billionaires.

The more money the companies make the more money I make. How so? Because of things like profit sharing, options, 401(k) matching stocks, etc. It may not be when I first walk in the door, but it's going to be at some point in time because that's what the more senior and more tenured members of the company get. And I'm willing to work hard to get my slice of the pie.

Ahh, but what if you did spend 60 hour weeks, which is more than HALF of your waking existence, trying to bust your ass for a piece of the pie but end up getting nothing?

Just because you work hard doesn't mean you'll get the proper promotions or benefits.

A lot of people seem to have this idea of, "If you work hard enough, it will pay off for you in the end", and that's just not always true. More like, if you're an entrepreneur, have good social skills, business saavy, etc., which not everyone has, regardless of how much they work.

Anyway, a teenager working at McDonald's shouldn't consider this. What, he's gonna go from a drive thru worker to CEO of McDonald's? Highly unlikely. The most that'll happen is he gets promoted to manager making $30k a year, which... honestly isn't much of a promotion for all the "hard work". There's no incentive.

You work at MTV, right? I'm sure there's room for promotion there. That's vastly different from something like a stock boy, bagger, janitor, etc. I don't think a janitor at MTV can get promoted to anything high in the company. Even if you did their website, I don't think there's much room for promotion beyond the IT department, so in a way you're very limited to what you can get (I don't know, though, I don't work there.. just makes sense).

As for the slackers during the dot com boom, all just a matter of being in the right place at the right time. Most of those people weren't very talented. A lot of that was bad judgement on VC, so a group of "computer saavy" teens could easily get a multimillion dollar invesment from a company to do whatever because they thought anything technical was a goldmine. The reality is, what they accomplised from that multimillion dollar investment could've easily been done by pretty much anyone else for much less. A lot of the older investors had NO clue about technology and how easy it is to do certain things.. lots of bad judgments. "OMG, I'll give you $1 million to make me a webpage that looks cool.. and put some of that 'flash' stuff on there."

That situation, to me, really had nothing to do with hard work or positive attitude towards others so much as just getting lucky - much like a poor man making $15,000 a year gets when he wins the $200 million lottery.

But if you dont - you can almost guarantee that NOTHING will happen. Why play the odds against yourself when you can do everything in your power to increase those odds. sure it doesn't always pan out but if you dont try at all, you are sealing your fate.

Yes that's true. I had plenty of companies take advantage of my hard working ethic. I worked for them squeezing what I could out of them. I left the garment center after 3 years of being in basically a legal sweatshop working 10 hour days 6 days a week for $4.25, upped to $8/hr after 1 year. I woke up one morning and found another job that afternoon doubling my salary. When I left and to this day, I can tell you how to run a cutting room, how to manufacture clothing, how to distribute clothing. To this day I can go work in a factory if I need to.

Now working for a TV company, when I first started here, I just knew IT support. Over the years, because of my own work ethic. I learned the rest of the business. I may not write or create good TV shows, but I do know and understand how they get created and made. I understand how production needs to work, and between understanding how technology and production can work together better.

Maybe not, but let's use another "food example" Hooters. Some of the waitstaff have become regional managers, and eventually franchise owners. I have heard of a few McD's that have had some do that via "diversity programs" to give opportunities to black community members.

"Luck" is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

There's plenty of people who say all the time, "You're so lucky you work at MTV!" No it wasn't luck. It was hard work. I worked hard until someone noticed me and gave me a chance. When I got laid off, you would say then I was unlucky. But no.. I worked hard there.. how did that pay off? A friend of mine called me when he had an opening in his department almost 2 years later. Why? Because he knew I worked hard and trusted me. Luck? Hardly.

as far as this company is concerned one can be just about anything. I know of IT people who have created shows just like other people have come into the business dreaming of being in entertainment. I do know that our company is different, very different. I had to hop from company to company to find the company I wanted to try to stick with... it wasn't easy but now I can "slack off" if I wanted to and do it in the Bahamas if I so choose, all because I paid my dues before.

What one has to remember is that a journey begins with a thousand steps. You reap what you sow. It's the little things that make the big thing. I started at the bottom with just $20 in my pocket when I arrived in NYC 13 years ago. There's plenty of people like me that came over in the boats to Ellis Island and they worked menial jobs, some became very famous people, some even wealthy people.

I was talking about luck in regards to millionaires made over the dotcom boom because of bad judgement and technological illteracy of VC.

There certainly are. And aren't you glad that I work so hard at my job making sure they don't receive the insurance benfits for which they paid?

And dude, you quoted my entire post. Are you saying everything in my post was a pile of steaming crap? Does that mean you think the Nazi's were doing a good job? Are you a Nazi?

no..


no... I am not a Nazi. Nazi's thought they were doing the honorable thing at that point in time. They were wrong from the beginning but it still within the culture of the moment they had, it was honorable. They look back now and see the dishonor it was.

As far as you doing your job... that's what you are doing. You are scrutinizing the claims etc, as there are plenty of charlatans and fraudulent claims, that the insurance companies have to be very frugal and very demanding.

My insurance does it to me, and it's annoying, but that's part of the system.

Maybe you're right. I don't know. I'm the asshole who denied benefits to a guy in Allentown suffering from inoperable brain cancer, so who am I to talk.

So go ahead everybody, work hard at cleaning those toliets and serving those french fries. Maybe you can work your way into management, then you won't be the guy who has to tell somebody's wife his brain cancer isn't covered under the policy. You can order me to do it.

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be!

docbungle, you are right. A lot of young people seem to think that everything should be handed to them on a golden platter. They don't want to work for a living. They want to change the system so that they can play xbox all day, or develop their "social life".

It sure sounds nice, but it just isn't going to happen. I believe this is why:-

Us humans(like all animals) have three basic needs. We need to breathe, eat(and all of the bodily functions that go with that :-) and reproduce.

We have faults. In particular, we are lazy and greedy.

Over thousands of years we have developed our knowledge of the world and built and designed many things to make our life "easier". We don't have to hunt for our food anymore. We've built massive dams that are connected to pipes and taps so we can have water whenever we want it, regardless of when it last rained. etc. etc.

But in our quest to make things "easier", things are really still the same. If we want food, instead of having to hunt for it we have to work so that we can afford to pay for it.

Somewhere along the line, someone "worked" very hard to design something that made life easier(or simply more enjoyable), and other people wanted it. After a while this person got tired of working so hard when other people didn't so they started asking for payment for their work. So then their life was "easier".

And so the vicious cycle began and while we continue to have "human" characteristics it will continue.

What's all this got to do with the main topic of this thread?

The human race has gotten this far because the majority of people are willing to do a reasonable, if not a good job. They work to try and make their life easier and in turn this makes other peoples lives easier. If people don't turn up to work and don't give it the best they can that day, then everyone suffers.

Just because someone works in retail or a low paid job doesn't mean that they don't have to give it their best.

My very first job was as a trolley collector at a shopping centre that was built on a hill. At the age of 15, I weighed about 55kg. I was easily the smallest of the guys but what I lacked in weight I made up for in determination. While I was busting my gut they were sneaking off for a smoke. They'd slack off so that the work wouldn't be done so they could work back and get overtime.

Well eventually this cost the supermarket too much money and the contracted Trolley collection company was given the arse. The supermarket decided to directly hire trolley collectors. Out of the 10 guys employed by the contractor only two were hired. I was hired because my hard work had been noticed.

It wasn't long before I was given a lot of hours work each week because I was good worker. Whilst I was still at school and living at home I had more money than I really knew what to do with.

To me, still just a school kid that had no real living costs, the amount of money I earned was a lot. I loved this low paying job. I treated customers with respect and cherished the feeling of a job well done. I started to learn regular customers names and enjoyed the affection they showed towards me.

I learnt how to deal with many different personality types. How to turn an unhappy person into a happy one. I moved around to different departments in the store. Eventually though things changed. Due to the death of my mother my attitude changed and so did my work performance. I moved out of home and into the real world.

I ended up stuck in a rut for a number of years until one day the manager brought to my attention a position that existed in the head office of the company. Looking back now, he was just trying to get rid of me. But I hated where I was and saw this as an opportunity to get out and to perhaps step up in the world. I wanted to work in I.T.

I applied for the position and was successful. I was now working in the state office of the company, as a mail boy.

So now I was pushing a different trolley. I could have just acted lke any old "mail boy" except I didn't. I set out to be the best mail boy they'd ever seen. I was super friendly, super efficient. Using the people skills I had developed over the years I worked on winning the "approval" of everyone I delivered mail to. This included some of the top Managers in the company.

A trainee position became available in the IT department. I applied for the job. I also asked some of the top Managers to send a character reference to the Manager of the IT department. His Inbox was bombarded.

I worked for that company for 9 years. Now I'm a Network Manager for a different company and making far more money than I ever could have in a supermarket.

Funny thing is though, some days I miss working in a supermarket. I didn't have to manage staff, I had a lot less responsibility and because I dealt directly with the customer I could see first hand the effects that my hard work made.

As someone has already stated in this thread. There is honour in a low paid job. You will learn from it and what you learn will assist you for the rest of your life. Even if the only thing you seem to learn is what NOT to do!

Don't blindly abuse Management or the CEO. If members of Management are really that bad they will eventually fall. If you hate the company so much for whatever reason(like the fact that they rip people off with insurance) move on.

You work to be paid. Don't expect other people to make your job fun. Don't expect other people to motivate you.

Dont expect laziness and a bad attiude to make your life easier.

Primus Inter Pares - The first among equals.

That's what I live by as a manager/leader. I do not ask someone that I am not willing to do myself. This means I do not ask someone to clean the toilets if I am not willing to do it myself. I do not tell someone to do some crappy work if I'm not willing to roll up my sleeves and do it myself.

Just like there are shitty workers, there are shitty managers. I don't want to be either.

My job isn't to block someone from using my services or abilities. I'm not sure what capacity your job is in denying those benefits, if you were the first line call center or even further in the process, but had you walked up to me to tell me that situation of denying benefits to someone, I would have done the due diligence to make sure that there wasn't some technicality. If after doing such due diligence, I would have asked you to allow me to tell them removing the burden from you.

Wow, this thread is still going! Amazing. It's evolved into something else entirely: Kind of nit-picking about all kinds of individual items. But what I was talking about was the fundamental lack of work ethic today among this age group, not bad management taking advantage of its workers.

I don't take advantage of my workers; I treat them very well. The main point, I guess, is that if you're going to apply for a job, be prepared to actually do the job. If not, then why in the hell are you applying in the first place?

Don't blame me for holding you accountable. I'm the boss: that's what I do.

Teens don't have the "blind respect" that the earlier generation had. You need to earn it. I don't know what would work well, you're the manager but kids arn't going to come and work their asses off for nothing anymore. You need to work harder to find a worker. I don't want to start another flame war (Which some of this has been... fuck) but teenagers are not going to hop right into the driver seat when it comes to their future. Its a lack of respect for themselves and others and its the fucking truth.

But on the other hand you obviously don't respect the teens you hire. I don't care if you are pissed off about the teens in this situation... you are obviously hiring with the idea that all men between 12 and 20 are obsessed with humping the atractive woman who walks through the door and the women are talking about how the guy just blew his load when he saw her. FUCK, you have to work at it. This isn't an attack on you... but teenagers have changed so you have to change your approach.

It's a lack of respect on both sides and we know that either a teen isn't smart enough or a smart ass who thinks s/he's too smart for everything (i was one of those)... so be the bigger person and change. It's the only solution I can find because you are butting heads with a whole generation of kids... and kids are strong willed and smart when you get them interested. I bet they would be intrested in being a dick to their dick manager. It isn't about saying hi to Johnny and making him feel like he is part of the team...

Instead of firing the lame try seeing if they you can teach them. And if you fail at first don't get the pink slip... work hard on these kids man because they are dealing with parents who are putting them on zoloft and fucking riddilin, teachers who are pushing them through their classes and managers who WON'T GIVE THEM THE CHANCE THEY NEED. Teach the fucking teachable and cut the losers lose because they deserve to be. But don't give up so easily.

Petite Moi - I'm sure you are a very hard worker and I'm not applying this to ALL teens, just the ones who fall into the catagory of a fucking waste of money

You are fucking right there was honour in that. They believed something (something that I disagree with... with a passion) and they worked their asses off. Think about it. They did their job to perfection? They were told to kill and they did. They were told to follow, hell or high water and they did. In my opinion (and I'm sure Nazi's disagree with me) there was no honour in the job. But was there honour in how they conducted themselves? Fuck yes. If every teenager acted like a nazi (with the work ethics not the hate) then there would be no problems. Right? So get over it.

You are incorrect in your critique of me. I assume nothing. I am speaking from experience, not hypothetical theory. Some teens rock; I don't deny that fact. But the workplace is not going to change for the teen worker; you can't be serious. You know nothing of my approach, yet you critique it. So very typical.

Well, no offense intended, but if your "approach" was working then this wouldn't be an issue would it? I'm not asking you to change the world's approach on teen workers, just your own. It's not that hard to experiment because obviously this is getting you no where. Where is the harm in trying something different with these kids?

I think if you look back at my approach to ADULTS that garnered the same kinds of results, you'll find that it's not the age group but the work ethic.

I have plenty of great friends, but they aren't all good workers and while I'd lay my life on the line for them, I would not necessarily want to work with them day in and day out.

You are insinuating all kinds of things that are unfounded. i.e., my approach is the issue, or I don't experiment, or that I am rock solid and don't try different things. Maybe you haven't read the earlier parts of the thread?

My "approach" is not the issue. I've done this for over ten years, and I wouldn't still be here if I weren't able to change my management style and/or adapt to new things. Over the last half of this period, the attitude and work ethic of this particular age group (not as a whole but the majority of them) has steadily declined.

Anyway, this has been beat to death I don't really think there's anything else to contribute. It's like watching 'Crossfire.'

Well, I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but in my recollection of history slacker pot heads never killed 6 million jews.

Of course I didn't mean that. When I said "The work ethics" I meant just that. Nazi's did a really really really wrong thing (in my opinion) but there is no denying that they did their job. It's sad... but it's the truth. They did everything 110%. To bad it was killing so many innocent people.

punkmusicfan, while I 100% understand the analogy you're making....you need to keep in mind that a lot of those people did as they were told so that they werent killed too...Im not saying all of them....some were real sadistic fucks, but if told...do as your ordered (same as MOST military people are) or you're next.....what would you do?

Isn't that similar to the situation teens workers are put in? The same situation you or I or anyone is in at the moment? We are told to work our asses off for the good of the company or else we are the next to go ("And did you hear what happened to Johnson, he should have just kept his head down and done his work... now his wife will have to get two jobs while he searches for one... And he's got his son. Poor Guy will probably end up living out of his car... Well, lets get back to work before the boss realizes we have been on break ten seconds too long") And sure there are some people who are actually "born hard workers", my father is one of them, but the world is churning out less and less it seems. I'm not one of them.

Like I said before, teens are without the extreme work ethics these days (not all teens). I guess I'm just afraid that we are just going to "kill them" all because they won't follow orders to perfection...

and with the globalization of the workforce... just where do they happen to think they are going to work if they have poor work ethic?

Well, provided they come from wealthy families they don't have to work hard, they just have to hold on to the capital and the means of production.