How often do you need to beat your wife....
 

(please move this if its in the wrong place...I honestly couldnt figure out the best forum)

I read this today and I know that I'm American...I know that I in no way could understand the culture that thinks this way..but I swear I cant wrap my mind around the way this woman thinks

Beat me once a week.....

I know a lot of people like to shroud this sort of thing under 'cultural differences', but people don't think murder or rape is cultural. This is a disgusting, evil practice that is carried out by cowards and accepted by even bigger cowards. If I ever saw one of my friends, regaredless of race or culture, hit a woman, I would step in to defend her. Any man who would raise his hand or fist against a woman in order to scare her "enough to obey" him should be beaten 10 fold what he gave out, by the woman he hit. Obediance by a wife is not mandatory by any rule or law of nature. It is a stupid belief that is perpetuated by ignorance. Obediance is not a part of a healthy relationship between a man and a woman. Mutual respect is.

Whats gets me is that SHE thinks its ok enough to deal with it once a week, I often wonder if people who dont understand the BDSM lifestyle think about it like I think about the way the poor woman has to live.

I believe that in a lot of cultures, including most Muslim countries, it is.

I'm not going to pick apart your statement, but realize how narrowminded and elitest it is. I'm not defending beating women - I would never do that nor condone doing it in the United States - but realize that our culture is not the be all and end all of World Society. Thoughts and comments like yours are part of the reason that a good chunk of the world hates us.

Yes, to us beating women is morally and culturally wrong. So is enslaving children, so is caning prisioners, so is systematically destroying opposing ethnic groups. But realize that this is something that sociologically we, as a society and ONLY our society, have grown to accept. In our past, we have made children slaves (1920s factories), we have used barbaric punishments on prisioners (16 and 1700s), and we have systematically destroyed many original ethnic groups (need I mention the American Indian?). Today, in our world, we would not accept these actions. But we did. And no American hates all Americans because we once did this.

Culture is relative. It may seem okay for us to wear jeans and worship the pop singer on that magazine cover, but the rest of the world may not see it that way. Many find how we live our lives and how we treat other people (yes, even women in our culture) as disgusting. Whose to say who is right?

To believe that we're superior just because we're...us...is to be no better than that man who is beating his wife. In fact, it's worse - he's not trying to make us beat our wives, now is he?

EDIT for clarity: When I refer to "our society" I am referring to the United States and most Western European nations. Please don't use the argument of "other countries support not beating your wife, so then it must be right". That's the fallacy of begging the question.

Indeed it is sad. Cultural difference or no it's hard to convince someone that a different way of life than the one they were reaised in is any better that what they now know.

That woman was brought up in a culture that perpetuates that kind of treatment of women. She has no way of knowing what the rest of the world thinks. She is probably uneducated and now allowed out of the house without a chaperone.

Sad... very sad.

For the longest time, the standard wedding vow (unless you were a crunchy hippie type and wrote your own) included Love honor and obey. Now it seems to be love, honor and cherish, but that's a pretty recent phenomenon (like the past 20 years)

This is not part of the culture. This is actually very rare, Muslims dont beat their wives on a normal basis, once again this is false bs the media would like you to believe. Just because this one guy beats his wife and she is to weak to do find a better life for herself, does not mean the entire culture believes in this.

If it is their culture, then why did the courts (who practice the same) find him guilty? I agree that our society, however narrowminded we are, needs to be sensitive to other cultures. With that said...any beating of anyone imo is wrong.

Everybody. I have the absolute right to say that beating someone who is weaker than I or less powerful, to maintain my power, is wrong. Not all systems and societies are healthy just because they exist. If you don't honestly believe that some things are absolutely wrong, then you don't really believe in anything. If wanting to protect the weak makes me an elitist in your eyes, well.... I just don't know.

For example, many of the people you're defending in the name of moral relativism would _absolutely condemn you_ for some of the things that you do. They'd think your own moral relativism was shameful.

Am I going to go overseas and force men to stop beating their wives? No. Am I going to agitate for the government to force them to stop? No. You can't impose cultural change. You _can_ incite change by being an example: the U.S., with its relatively good (not the best) record on women's rights floods the world with media that shows women who make their own decisions and have dignity to themselves, and do you think that this message starts to sink in after a while? You bet, in the places that are ready for it. And any country that wants to be part of the modern world economy as anything other than a supplier of raw materials and low-grade manufactured goods, probably is.

In _this_ country, however, if an African or Pakistani beats his wife just like in the old country, I'm calling the cops. Screw cultural sensitivity. Some things are just wrong, and I do believe that the religious writings of those other cultures would say so as well. I haven't read it, but I really doubt that the Koran has good things to say about wife beating.

Cultural Relativism has been discredited many times in the past. If you can't call wife beating wrong then you can't call ethnic cleansing wrong either. It's ok to find other cultural practices interesting, but you don't have to accept them on any level.

Rescheduling your morning meetings around a co-workers prayer schedule is being polite; not calling female genital mutilation wrong is another thing entirely.

*standing ovation*

I understand what you are saying, but I'd like to clarify a few things in pertaining to your response to my post.
My argument may be elitest, but I don't think it's narrow minded. I am well aware of other cultures, be they for or against beating of women. I have seen first hand, in visiting several middle eastern citys and towns, what this perticular culture is like on the surface. I also had the privlege to stay with a great family there. This family was of the belief that obediance by the women was necessary to keep order in the household. We had many long discussions over dinner (in english, thank God) about the subject. We agreed to dissagree in the end, but I can see where they are coming from. I still consider it to be wrong.

I'm afraid you lost me. In that you specifically say that beating women is culturally wrong. Then you go on to say that 'culture is relative'.

I was not implying that we (the US) are the perfect society. We are pretty far from it. HOWEVER, I do believe that beating women is wrong. Equating it with Britney Spears and blue jeans is asking a bit much. We make serious mistakes ourselves, but on average our culture does not tolerate beating someone. The husband is clearly not defending himself from physical danger his wife put him in.

I will not argue that obediance from a woman is a cultural difference. I may not see it as fair, but I can understand it. When the situation escalates to violence, however, I still say it's wrong.

I have Muslim neighbors, a young married family with kids, and our (American) female neighbor further down the street always teases the guy about how this is America, women aren't looked down upon, don't boss her around so much, get up and get yourself a glass of water, go help her clean up the dishes, etc..it seems that Muslim women are subservient to Muslim men customarily, although I can't judge as far as outside the home in public because I just don't know, haven't seen it. They seem pretty happy people, so who knows...

As far as the Iranian being allowed to beat his wife once a week, well...I think everyone here has so far echoed my own thoughts on the matter. Pretty ridiculous.

Very interesting, completely based on culture. Good read.

Uhm, he wasn't allowed to beat her wife once a week. The court found him guilty.

Iranians condemn that sort of thing but it's customary (ie if the wife is dominating the relationship then she is regarded as a terrible wife and nobody will like her) for the wife to be the best wife she can be, in that patriarchal society sense.

It's vaguely similar to the way things were in America back in the 1950's. Maybe that would put things in perspective for you.

well I will add this....I have know a few Iranian couples......and this is exactly how they operated...I have witnessed it first hand so they dont ALL condemn it

First, this was an Iranian court that forbade him from beating his wife. Iranian courts operate under muslim law. Muslim law may seem to us to be oppressive toward women such as the head scarves, but the justification is the laws are to protect women (headscarves help prevent the women from being looked upon as sexual objects). Beating one's wife is in no way protecting her and is in fact doing the opposite, and the Iranian court agrees since they condemned it.

Second, I would submit that any man who beats his wife is not a man at all. I for one find it repulsive even to the point of avoiding use of the phrase, "Rule of thumb." Since the origin of that phrase comes from an old English law that allowed a man to beat his wife provided that the stick he used was no wider than the width of his thumb.

Third, in regards to the BDSM lifestyle, that is purely consensual on both sides and when done right there are always saftey measures taken before hand. There is a big difference between having pleasure from pain, and pleasure from assult. Any good Master/Mistress will tell you that their goal is to create pleasure through subserviance in the sub, and not to physically hurt the sub.

mirevolver....being in the lifestyle (and being the good mistress that I am lol) I know that SOME people know the difference....I just wondered if vanilla's looked at it the same kind of way IE....the whipping/flogging used as a control measure...but them not seeing that that is a means of pleasure and is desirable to the sub

I remember when a man could still beat a woman in the u.s.. Actually, i don't, but i know that such a time existed. It is a shame when one can condemn an entire culture for something one's own culture has just recently (relatively) outgrown. I'm not saying it's right, just, well, you know.

Yes, well being one who is not in the lifestyle (though does have some curiosity towards it), I do see the difference. And after my rant on the first two topics, I just wanted to point out that I do know that there is a difference.

The day a man hits me, is his last day with his package intact.

from www.dumblaws.com

Arkansas
A man can legally beat his wife, but not more than once a month.

California (Los Angeles)
It is illegal for a man to beat his wife with a strap wider than 2 inches without her consent.

West Virginia
It is legal to beat your wife so long as it is done in public on Sunday, on the courthouse steps.

Oh I knew you did....I was just making sure that other people understood what I meant by my original statement on BDSM in my first post :thumbsup:

Very well then, I retract the "rule of thumb" part. However I still find any man who beats his wife to be both repulsive and reprehensible.

My response to that would be: WHAT THE FUCK?

It already pisses me off when a man verbally abuse his woman, but to do this, and on a daily basis...well I hope that asshole burn in hell.
The day when I lay a hand on my woman intentionally or not, is the day I lost the right to call myself a/her man...

VERY well said

It's been a while since I looked this up so my info may be slightly sketchy but the actual origin of the phrase is from the qur'an.

In the time of Mohammed people used a certain type of twig with frayed end to clean their teeth. The twig would be snapped to the length of your thumb.

...found it:

I was reading this and just thinking that everyone is talking like beating women is a thing of the past, so I had a laugh when I saw Shanifaye's post.

As far as I can tell the majority of people will not do anything to help a woman who is being beaten in her home, if they hear it from their home, most will turn a deaf ear unless it's very disturbing. Most people don't want to know about other people's lives unless it's happening right in front of them. Mos people are selfish I think.

And wife-beating is so, so common. It's all very well how you feel/think and how you voice your concern, but who does anything about it? The truth is it's easy to abuse someone, physically or verbally, given the chance, especially if the victim is so devoted to you they can't see the wood for the trees...

Don't know if you get me here, I don't mean to elicit any incensed responses but I'm tired of hearing people's eloquent speeches on life when things are never as black and white as we tell ourselves, day after day...

I just wanted to clap a little with Bill. I'm certainly not saying that American / Western culture is perfect - far from it etc. - but the shield of cultural relativism is not blanket immunity from despicable practices. If you say that I eat grits and the guy in Morrocco eats cous-cous, I can accept that for cultural relativism. If you say that it's ok that he beats his wife and I don't, then cultural relativism be damned. I don't see this as a "cultural hangup." This is something I believe we can logically argue and come to the conclusion that suppression of females and the accompanying physical abuse is not in the best interest of the society or the individual, nor is it morally defensible from the standpoint of "ethics," as long as you accept the caveat that females are 1. homosapiens, and 2. capable of thought. If you don't accept those two principles, well then....

Yeah, I'm not real big on moral relativism.

I just want to point out that it doesn't say in the article if the couple is Muslim. So all of the talk about Muslims vs. others might not apply. This couple might not be Muslim. Of course being in Iran, the chances are very slim.


That being said, I feel badly for the woman.

I have a question.....if its not an accepted practice why wouldnt the woman ask for the beatings to be stopped altogheter? why only ask for once a week?

She answered that question
She loves him.
She's middle aged (which probably makes her my age which is scarey)
If her husband stopped beating her, or she left, she probably figures she has no place to go, and no ability to take care of herself, so she'll take the beating once a week - rather than life alone.

well mal what I meant was...in response to these people saying its not a "way of life"
I wanted THEM to tell me how it isnt considered that way given what she was asking

I am sorry but I was reading all of this again and I started thinking about how ironic it was that Shani started this discussion being her sig and avatar and such.

I just got a little chuckle out of that:)

SEE I knew somebody was gonna bring that up hehehe Im glad it was somebody NOT in the lifestyle (mirevolver) that made the distinction about the difference between the two things

Oh I know the difference....:) I just like to point everything out. That is my speciality:)

Forgive me if this has already been said, but I believe Westerners are too quick to view other cultures through Western values, and thereby impose a Western interpretation onto an event that is clearly not Western.

In a very poor example, imagine the Asian viewpoint the first time they saw a Scotsman wearing a kilt. My guess would be that they might view the Scottish man as being effiminate, because in their own culture only women wear skirts. This would be an example of interpreting someone else's culture through your own limited view. Watching midwesterners thrash and flail about every time they see a Confederate flag in the South is another example. Although that flag is the direct equivalent of Ku Klux Klan to people in the midwestern US, it has many, many varied and complex meanings to Southern people (both black and white). Therefore, it's foolish to attempt to interpret someone else's actions through your own admittedly different values.

Disney used to anthrophomorphize animals in a similar way in their little nature films, and we all got used to interpreting animal behavior by comparing it to a similar-looking human behavior. Zoologists still cringe at the thought of those 1950's Disney films.

Therefore, although I personally don't want to eat another human being or beat my wife, I would not dare be so arrogant as to tell another person in another part of the world that they shouldn't do that simply because it gives me the willies and wouldn't be tolerated on my street.

What do you tell a woman with 2 black eyes?

...nothing, you done told her twice... (old redneck joke)

Seriously, I don't care what country or culture you're from, that shit is WRONG.

Man, I totally just changed my mind. I'm switching to a sub-culture variant called piggletism where it's acceptable to beat women, kill minorities, and burn babies with hot candle-wax. You might not like it, but don't tell me it's wrong. It's my new heritage.

Early this mornin', when you knocked upon my door
Early this mornin', when you knocked upon my door
I said, 'Hello, Satan, I believe it's time to go

Me and the devil, both walkin' side by side
Me and the devil, both walkin' side by side
I'm going to beat my woman, 'til I get satisfied . . .
Robert Johnson

So what should we do when we make true (not conspiracy-based) first contact with an alien civilization? If we're willing to accept different ways of life from other planets, then it's not that much of an extension to expect us to accept it from within our own species.

Many historical precedents have been set, with the most notable being Christopher Columbus. In the late 15th Century, the Christian church had convinced everybody in Europe that it was impossible to lead a decent life without Christ. So when Columbus "discovered" millions of perfectly happy, healthy, and productive people who had never heard of Christ, it radically shook the foundations of Christianity. One of the tangible outcomes of the 1492 discoveries in the New World was the Protestant Reformation of 1517, where Christians told their churches they were fed up at being lied to. And predictably, the church did everything in its power to completely eliminate the heathen Indians.

ARTelevision started a fascinating thread along these same lines in Tilted Philosophy (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=66403) and it's worth a look.

warrrreagl,

1. Just so you'll know, I was being a smart-ass. Which I'm prone to be.

2. This whole discussion, in my opinion (and it may be moving towards ARt's thread, which I've not read yet), is going to be complicated, per usual, in theory vs. practice sense. Thus, my own opinion in these situations is to delineate the difference between tolerance and acceptance. I will not accept such a cultural practice. I don't believe such a cultural practice should be accepted. I'll tolerate it, in the sense that I know it exists, and (as you referenced the Native American annihilation) I believe that are better ways to achieve changes than at the point of a gun, etc.

As an aside, concerning the Native Americans in the "New World," I'm not convinced that the Church wanted to eliminate the indigeneous peoples as much as they wanted to displace them, convert them, or enslave them. From what I've read, unfortunately the host of diseases that were brought over with the first European explorers / settlers pretty much wiped out / drastically decreased the population of many of the Native American tribes. I'm no historian, so I'm not really putting my foot down on that one.

People think other countries pay attention to how the USA treats women. For the vast majority...No.

I also lived in Uzbekistan for awhile and while there are domestic abuse issues that seriously need to be addressed I also know there were many strong and healthy families.
Matter of fact America is a weak example of family.

I'm gonna agree with tarvuz in that America is a weak example of a good family life. With our overfondness of television, video games and such we don't tend to form the strong family bonds that many other countries do. I'm not trying to say that beating one's spouse (women beat men too sometimes though you don't hear about it nearly as much) is right, but we're not a people to be forcing our opinions on what is right or not on others. I know I wouldn't beat my wife. I don't think beating one's spouse is right. America, for the most part, has laws against it, so doing so is against the law. There may be places where it's legal, I don't claim to be knowledgible of other countries' laws. If it's legal somewhere, so be it. That's their way of doing things. I still don't condone it, but it's not my place, as one person in the billions on the planet, to tell others what to think or do.

I don't buy this relativistic morals bullshit. I have spent a long time in school, I am highly educated, and I know that the systematic beating of people is not conducive to a healthy society. This is the same society where accused women are stoned to death for allegations of adultery, where women have acid thrown in their face for turning down a man's advances, where there is very little medical care for women. Yes, I can and should say that society in the middle east is really fucked up to women and outsiders. They need to grow up. I freely admit that my country and culture has made mistake in the past, but in general we are further along and the middle east needs to catch up.

Also, warrreagle, the rebel flag is kept as a racist symbol, that is it's primay meaning. The rest is lies to obfuscate the truth. And yes, I went to North Georgia College and State University from '91-'96, so I know what I am talking about.

My wife told me she wouldn't marry me if the word "obey" was included in our wedding vows.

Needless to say, it wasn't included in our wedding vows.

I don't think wifebeating is a cultural thing, at all. However I do believe that there are certain cultural aspects that can increase the likelihood of a man abusing his wife physically. Condemnable? Sure... But I wouldn't get up on such a high horse just yet.

I'd say that neighbour of theirs is sticking her nose where it doesn't belong. If I am not mistaken, there are cultures in which a woman's place and position in a household is quite restrictively defined, and to suggest that a man perform or assist a woman in performing 'female tasks' could - and to me understandably would - come across as suggesting that the woman is incapable of taking care of her duties and fulfilling her 'role'. You and I may not agree with these gender roles, but to someone else they may be part of the deeply rooted fabric of their culture and existence. Your neighbour might mean well, but might also be insulting both of them.

Obedience is not part of a healthy relationship between a man and a woman according to your value system and culture. Aside from the enlightened TFP crew, I dare suggest that there are relatively few couples out there that are perfectly equal. This old-fashioned ignorance, as you called it, is further instigated by cultural customs, and even law; there are still certain state-specific laws in the U.S. that grant the husband more control and ownership over mutual possessions. Furthermore, let's step aside from the wifebeating for a sec and examine gender roles. They persist, as much as we may pretend that they in some cases don't. In fact, in my own personal point of view, Americans seem more stuck with old gender roles than the majority of Western or even Eastern Europe. Most of the 'official' mail that drops in our mailbox here in Texas comes in my name (I'm the husband), or addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. My wife has a name, too, and it isn't Mrs. John Doe. Furthermore, I hear the phrase "head of the household" on a regular basis. It is even on official forms that I've had to fill out, and only one person is allowed to be named as head of the household. I recently read an article in which a woman claimed her bank refused to discuss details of her and her husband's mutual bank loan with her, because the bank would only deal with her husband directly, and told her the matter was "private". This was only in one commonwealth, though, not a general practice obviously.

Despite of all the equality, how come many European nations have elected female presidents, and we have not had one, not once, not ever? All we ever have are white, old, married men.

You may claim that while our beloved society has not progressed far enough in terms of creating equality between the sexes, we do not condone wifebeating either.

So?

I personally think that it is practically impossible to have perfectly equal relationships. The scale always tilts one way, no matter how much we'd like to praise ourselves for our astonishing ability to create the perfect relationship. Maintaining that facade of equality within the relationship requires constant re-evaluation of the gender roles, or redefinition of them. Ultimately someone always wears the pants, whether it ever comes up or not.

In some cultures, it is well defined that the man wears the pants, he's the head of the household, and the wife obeys him. By our standards, this is far from equality, we do not condone or perhaps even understand it. But I think the reason some men in these cultures resort to violence within the home is out of the sheer pressure of having to re-establish themselves in their position. Even in our beloved and better-than-others civilization I've heard men make remarks about a man not being able to keep his wife on a leash...

Ultimately, I believe it's not when we're perfectly equal that we are happy and content...it's when we know our places and are content within them.

I read through this entire thread and all I heard was, "Blah blah blah blah."

Folks, keep the discussion simple. Quit making it more than it is. Would you beat your spouse? If yes, then you think it's ok. If no, then you think it's not ok.

All this talk of "cultural differences" and "america is a big bully" are, albeit intelligently spoken and even has merit, COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC. Stay on one topic, and you'll avoid a big mess like this thread has turned into.

So in response to Shanifaye's original post: I believe the man's sentence should be that he has to allow his wife to beat him every day for as long as he has been beating her. I'll bet anything that she'll choose not to because she loves him, and chances are he'll realize that what he's been doing to her is pretty fucked up.

It was considered ok to beat your wife 50 years ago in western society, it's just that Muslim values haven't changed in the same way western values have.

willravel is right. things like this do not fall under cultural differences. since when is physically abusing your wife a part of someone's culture.

I don't know. I really don't. I feel that beating another person is inherently wrong - abuse of power and all that (assuming you're not doing things like ShaniFaye of course). But it's not my culture - it's very difficult to judge that objectively. However, the fact that the Muslim courts made an official decision that he was not to beat his wife anymore at all (and not even once a week) says to me that yeah, it's wrong altogether. His own culture judged him, thus moral relativism doesn't come into play here.

As far as other issues, such as genital mutilation within some African tribes... I find it abhorrent, but it's not my culture. I'm also not Jewish, so I can't imagine circumcising a baby boy, either - and don't forget, lots of people have it done to their sons who aren't Jewish! But that's accepted here, because Jewish people are part of our culture and heritage. That particular issue is subject to cultural relativism - we can't condemn others when we do something similar ourselves.

Only once a month or so...I taught her good during the honeymoon. ;)

I don't think there is room for cultural relativism... wrong is wrong and beating another person is wrong. End of story.

I don't care what their courts say, their religious leaders or their mother's... it's wrong.

WTF? I have NEVER seen a news story from a credible media outlet that said "Iranians encourage each other to whip up on their wives." This is taking media bashing to a new level of stupidity IMHO. Just because you hear it from Cleetus down the street or you read it on some blog somewhere does NOT mean the evil media is trying to brainwash you. Might wanna polish up that tin foil hat of yours.

That is all.

Wife-beating is not "cultural". Domestic violence is not "cultural". It is practiced EVERYWHERE. It's presumptuous to point fingers at "other cultures" that which is common in our own house. Ask a police officer how prolific domestic violence in the US is. Visit a women's shelter in the US. There are thousands. Besides, isn't "obey" a big part of Christian marriage vows and ideology?

It is ridiculous to be so elitist and arrogant - cast not stones in a glass house or whatever the saying is. My neighbors are Irish and Italian. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that it's "their culture" to beat their wives and children, especially after alcohol. Plus, we embrace it in our culture. Eminem rap, hip-hop etc all boast of beating their women. I feel left out of our "culture". I'm not cool enough to beat my wife and kids *sigh* I'm a lousy American. I just can't be like Tom Sizemore, Bobby Brown, OJ Simpson, Liza Minelli and millions of other good Americans who beat their wives and girlfriends. I guess I'm not "civilized" enough. Even on our own board here: Did anyone bother to check out K-wises journal? I don't think he's Iranian or Muslim. He's....wait for it....*gasp* American!

No, I don't think it's cultural. There are assholes everywhere, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity etc.

probably should have been more specific. the media does not generally portray middle eastern culture positively, which is why some Americans as well as other foreigners believe beating of wives in middle eastern or muslim culture is a method that is acceptable to them. as for the source of the original story, it's dead now, so whether it was from 'cleetus down the street' or a credible source, i'm not sure of. but you're correct, the media doesn't come out and bluntly say "iranians encourage each other to whip up on their wives", but there is a reason that a lot of other cultures believe this is something that middle eastern/muslim culture indeed does practice, and the mainstream media is the major source of 'news' to many. i should have said "generally", and i apologize.

If a guy wants to beat on a woman that's cool with me, as long as he agrees to be beaten buy someone who is naturaly more aggresive and at least twice as strong as he is. In fact, I'd volunteer to be the one who beats any man who wants to do this.</joking tone>

I do not understand the absolute lack of emotional control that drives a person to beat a person, or even an animal, who poses no real threat to them.

So who here supports the war in Iraq?

Who here thinks that spanking your children is a good practice?

Where do you draw the line of violence. Is it hypocrisy to be against beating a wife but supporting war and spanking your kids? What if your wife was in your mind and culture, like a child. I know a lot of people who wouldn't bat an eye at spanking a kid, perhaps even switching him. I was spanked and for all my faults I don't attribute any undue psychological trauma to it. I fought with my brothers for years, and we had some serious tussles. I think that's to an extent, normal.

I would never raise a hand against a woman, but I really want to know how someone can draw the line of violence at a certain point.

Also, I reread that rule of thumb 'debunking' and all it says is there has never been found the exact law.
However, they found myriad references to it. So why does that make it a myth?
That doesn't really satisfy any debunking, and I don't understand why that is considered a debunk.

Sorry for being off topic, but I'm confused.

I draw the line at violence against other people. I don't support the war in Iraq and I don't hit my kids.

Violence simply begets more violence. Escalation only ends up hurting or killing us all.

There are other methods... problem is they take a lot more time to see results. Most people would rather just reach out and whack someone than think it through. They want their answers and solutions now. Unfortunatley, it just doesn't work like that.

Thats really scary that beating your wife is ok in other countries. Its accepted over there and seems like a custom.

being a muslim myself, and also being married, i have never laid a finger on my wife... nor have i sworn at her or in her presence. my parents have been married for over 30 years and have never laid a finger on each other, i also have 15 uncles and aunts, and have never heard of domestic violence in our family... so my point is... no its not culturally acceptable as muslims to beat your spouse! anyone who tells you otherwise has erred.

as a matter of fact, most domestic violence occurs due to alcohol related incidents. and since muslims do not drink alcohol, i wouldnt be surprised if the stats showed that domestic violence was more prelavent in western culture than in middle eastern ones.

I don't know how I feel about such things...

I don't condone beating of women, but I’m not sure it's my place to judge someone who would.

Sadly women got the short end of the stick in religion and you all know how un-compromising theism is.

That’s the "problem" with faith is it can't be reasoned with and can't be changed.

Maybe not a "problem" maybe those are just the cards that god has dealt.

Once again I’m not equipped with divinity or any such thing so who am I to say that the place of women according to religious texts is unsound.

However my personal opinion is to give women the opportunities afforded to men.

I also believe in double standards
I also think its a great thing when a woman chooses to stay home with the children and raise them rather than just let them grow up.

I think jorgelito has it right. Turn on FX and watch cops, half that show is full of AMERICANS beating their wives.