hilbert25

See that's the thing, it's not just a personal moral thing, it affects someone else's life greatly.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is right. At some point, someone said, "hey this human slavery thing is wrong, even if it is legal, we should change those laws." That's the key here, people are willing to fight (in the legal sense) for what they see as right. Go on and say "but you can't place your morals on other people." But in fact, that's exactly what all laws are about. You can name a law, and I bet you could also find someone with morals that don' t agree with it. In the case of murder, we put those people to death.

Stompy

If my g/f has an abortion, it doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect anyone but me and my g/f.

In fact, I could have one every week and not tell anyone. The only time it affects anyone is if I say something about it. If no one ever knew, then there wouldn't be a problem!

__________________
I love lamp.

soccerchamp76

It does affect other people because who knows what that kid could grow up to be?
Beethoven grew up in a broken home and he turned out to be one of the most famous and greatest composers ever.
OTOH, he could turn out to be a drug dealer.
So, yes, your decision does affect others.

__________________
Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

Stompy

Everyone's kinda starting to repeat themselves, so I'll let this be my last post.

Here's the reality of it all: if you're against it, you don't have much choice. You have to live with the fact that our society practices abortions.

You have every right to speak out against it and to have a differing opinion, but really nothing beyond that. It's honestly no one else's business what choices other people make in their lives unless it affects YOU directly and it's pretty ignorant to believe otherwise. Seriously, if my g/f decides to get an abortion in the future, that's our (her) choice and no one else's. To us, it is the right choice. Unless you are in MY shoes living MY life (or can prove the how it has ruined/affected your life in any way), then you kinda just have to respect that decision.

...and using "he could've been Einstein" is absurd for obvious reasons.

If I take a stroll in the park on the northern path, I could meet a person who inspires me to get into biology where I will eventually find a cure for cancer... but that day I decide to take the south path instead. So did I just fuck humanity out of the only chance at a cure for cancer? Well, if it never happened, then no. You can't predict the future. Life is a series of cause and effect and because of this, you can't use a "what if" as an argument and expect it to hold any water. It hasn't happened and it never will, so you'll never know.

__________________
I love lamp.

Philosopher

I don't think a limit needs to be imposed. Each abortion should be assessed on a case-by-case basis. Previous abortions do need to be taken into acount, but the reason for the abortion should also be taken into account.

If someone has had 2 abortions because of accidental pregnancy after the second abortion she (and her lover) should have to go through counselling and be educated not only on all the different methods of contraception, but also on the different forms of pleasure and STDs assosciated. If they have alternative ways to satisfy their sexual appetite, perhaps they will have intercourse less often. They should also be encouraged to think before they act, and hopefully reduce impulsiveness (that could lead to unprotected sex).

highthief

Yup. Have the State pay for it even, it'll pay for itself in the long run.

People who use abortion as a REGULAR method of birth control - well, it's a shame they weren't aborted themselves.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Reese

I just saw this thread managed to work it's way back onto the first page so I figured I'd give a half-assed reply before it died again.

I'm still torn on the subject because I think people should have the right to choose but when they constantly make the wrong choices someone should step in and educate these people.

As for killing a potential human, Doesn't every egg produced have potential to become human? Every sperm potentially human? Wouldn't the only way to truely be pro-life is to fertilize every egg you produce.The fact is by even using a condom you're denying a potential human life. A fetus cares as much about living as the unfertilized egg does, why the difference?

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

hrandani

Thought I'd point out that no, in fact, most eggs and most sperm do not make it to the final stages of development at the time of possible fertilization. Sperm in particular, the vast majority are not correctly equipped at the time of release, as it were, because of the variability of ejaculation ; )

hannukah harry

they might not make it to the final stages of development, but every sperm in my testicles and every egg in (non-existant) girlfriend have the potential to become a human life one day.

i guess each time i jerk off, i'm committing mass murder...

/i felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of sperm suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced...

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

ngdawg

The point is, as he said, is the potential. Every sperm is sacred? Every time your SO swallows, potential life is lost....
Anyway...someone in my family had had 2 abortions. She got pregnant a third time (fertile little thing that she was) and her doctor told her if she did not carry this one, she may never carry to term. She had a quickie wedding and 6 months later, a beautiful boy.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Rodney

Up to a few years ago, in California, women on Medi-Cal/Medi-Aid who were giving birth by Caesarian were offered a free tube-tie option, if they wanted it. The doctors were already going to open them up, so if they wanted to be sterilized -- no problem. It wasn't pushed, it was just an option. I knew a guy who worked as an orderly in an obstetrics ward, and he spoke some Spanish. So it was his job to explain the option to the welfare-cases who spoke only Spanish. Some of them had already had a lot of kids because frankly, they were poor, undereducated, and Catholic. He said he had women grab him by the wrist and pull him down to the bed and shout "Si! Si! Si!" They just didn't want _any_ more children.

Oddly enough, the state did away with that option a few years ago in one of those budget cuts that actually does more harm than good.

Suave

They could be SUPER unlucky and have had a couple of condom breakages that led to pregnancy or something. Granted, it wouldn't be common, but it could happen.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

la petite moi

Just reading the first few responses- If my mother had been forced to get her tubes tied (she had four abortions), I would not be here and neither would my sister.

tec-9-7

I have two answers. One is too many, and any amount should be legal. I think it is tragic that women decide that abortion is their best option. At the same time, I think that it is preferable for a woman to abort than to carry a child that she does not want. Personally I would be in favor of "breeding" licenses. But as that is not, and probably never will be a legitimate option, I will remain sadly pro-choice, but favor options other than abortion.

noodle

Such a loaded question and I had a violent personal reaction to it. I used to be very close friends with a toxic person. She has a beautiful now six year-old daughter with one man and told another that she was his child. The biological father hates the mother, and the other man had no clue he wasn't the father. During the course of one evening she told me in one breath that she'd had four abortions, and that she truly felt her God only "wanted me to have one child". Now, most of our friendship was me challenging her and forcing her to re-examine her choices/beliefs by her own report. When I asked her how should could say that if she'd been pregnant five times, she looked stunned and had no answer. To the last day of our friendship, she still couldn't come up with an answer.

I also work with a woman who has a fairly low IQ, around 70-75, and she's had 6 children. She's 22. She's been pushed around by her family, lovers, friends for years and doesn't have the self-esteem to stand up and say no. For that I don't blame her. She doesn't have the intellect or foresight to demand that the man who is pushing her around put on a condom. She's been begging for a tubal ligation for two years. Florida Medicaid will not pay for a tubal until she has nine children or turns twenty-five. She's trying to get her life together and I do have a lot of respect for her, but she's just lost custody of four of her kids again, despite her best efforts. So now We the People of the State of Florida are paying for her kids. And will be paying for the next few too, instead of a procedure that will cost, what, $500 to Medicaid? She can't afford an abortion, but she's a carrier for a genetic disorder that could cause more of her future children (and there will be more) to have this metabolic problem. She loves those kids, though, with all of her heart.

I just feel that our country is letting us down on so many levels, and when my local government stands up on my local news and says, "We've cut the Medicaid budget for non-essential procedures (read: non-Life-saving)," and "The United Way is cutting funding for Planned Parenthood and other local free clinics due to the negative press associated with the abortion debate..." I wonder what is going to happen to these women and our economy. And to the young women who are so desperate that they seek out illegal, unsanitary places to get their abortions and end up sterile or dead from infections. And to me, if I ever get placed in a situation where I have to decide. I hope that I will never be put in that position

I guess I just can't decide how many is too many. There are too many variables. I keep coming up with my ex-friend being wrong and feeling sorry for this other woman that she couldn't get them.

__________________

tec-9-7

Oh God. This sort of thing just makes me want to puke. This makes me want to pay for the poor woman's tubal myself. Sadly, I think she'll still be taken advantage of sexually... This is why I don't believe there is a God that gives a shit about what we do.

FoolThemAll

If the abortion threatens the mother's life? No limit. Though repeated instances might indicate that there exists a moral responsibility to avoid conceptions and that said responsibility is being shirked.

In all other cases? One is too many.

To avoid making this post simply a repeat, I'll address the potentiality argument being thrown around.

Sperm is potential human life. The zygote/embryo/fetus is human life with potential. The pivotal difference is that sperm is not the sum of ingredients needed for human life. The zygote is. If one were to argue that the nourishment a zygote needs is an ingredient in and of itself, then I would point out that this makes potential humans of us all.

Once all ingredients are joined, we have a human life. All other points from then on are points of potential fulfilled. This fulfillment continues past viability and well past birth.

And simply because an issue has shades of grey, does not mean those shades are indecipherable. Abortion is always killing. Abortion is not always unjustified. It's justified in response to a threat against one's life, just like all other forms of killing.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

hannukah harry

i don't remember the exact amount, but something like 2/3 of the 'human lives' formed by the joining of a sperm and an egg are spontaniously aborted by the body. and even throughout the the pregnancy, the fetus on occasion is spontaniously aborted/miscarried. until it is born, it is still only a potential life. until it is outside of the mother and surviving without being attached to her through the umbilical, it only has the potential of being an independent human life.

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

FoolThemAll

Yep.

Doesn't follow.

Oh, it's not an independent human life? Sure. It's dependent until it's born. Then it becomes dependent in a different way. The mechanics change, the vital need for assistance in order to survive remains. Potential remains unfulfilled.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

raeanna74

If anything I think it would be fair for all insurance companies to refuse payment for a person who wants an abortion after the second abortion. I think it would be fair for them to refuse to pay for prenatal care as well. If that person going to pop out but if they want to use that form of birth control then they should be willing to pay the price. Perhaps hurting the pocketbook might wake someone up.

Course then there's the problem of the hospital paying for the costs. BUT hospitals can refuse care after the bill is past due by a certain amount. Yes they have to offer emergency care when the child is born but they can take the child away at that point probably. Depending on how careless she's been throughout the pregnancy.

Sure it's a woman's body but it's our tax dollars, our insurance rates, our hospitals they are wanting to use then we have a right to refuse that part.

I'm not sure how we could regulate this unless the person was proven to be extremely careless or endangering the lives of the children that she DOES give birth to. I see no reason to not sterilize someone in that situation. Fuck with a child's life and health and your's will be forfeit in my book.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

raeanna74

At least it wasn't pushed.

The only thing about this (which by the way was a great idea) is that my mother had a Dr who believed it was his mission to prevent any woman from having more than one child, especially if they'd had to have C-sections. He wanted her to get her tubes tied after her second child. She said no. It was about 10 years later that after trying fruitlessly to conceive that her new Dr discovered that her tubes had been tied while she was unconcious during her second c-section. The biggest thing about this was that both my parents were educated people with college degrees, good jobs, and had two healthy children already that they were caring for responsibly. Now tell me why he did it.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Dragonknight

Because, he suffered from a complex that allowed his dumb ass to believe that he knew what was best for others. I'm pro choice to an extent. My extent stoppes around the third or fourth time. i had a friend whos' now wife had three or four (quit possibley five, no joke unfortunately) and had complications when she actually had a child. they have two now and both came with complications. not that the child was hurt it was just a lot harder a child birth then necessary. its a complete lack of selfcontrol, and maturity that leads people to do things like this. take control of your life and stopp just letting things happen in it. that's my two cents.

hannukah harry

doesn't follow? how doesn't it follow? until the baby is born, it has the potential of not making it all the way through the pregnancy. it is not a human life independent of the mother. it is part of her with the potential to become an independent human life. but that potential hasn't been met. now that i've added potential, does that follow?


i think this is a strawman or some other logical fallicy type deal, but here goes. yes it becomes dependent in a different way. and when it's 10 years old, it'll still be dependent in a different way. i'm 26, and i'm still dependent. i'm dependent on society for growing my food, making my clothing, being stable enough to have an environment where employment is possible. so that line of thinking really doesn't work for you. because once we're out of our mothers bodies, we're still dependent on something. the issue isn't when or how we're dependent, it's 1) it's her body and 2) the fetus isn't a seperate life. it has the potential, but not the guarantee.

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

FoolThemAll

No, it follows now because you added the word 'independent'. I'll not dispute the claim that it's dependant. I will dispute the claim that it's not a human life. I will dispute the claim that it's merely a potential human life.

This is my question: how does it follow from "it has a low chance of survival during pregnancy" that "it is potential human life"? I don't see how it does.

Uh, that's exactly my point: the criterion of dependence cannot be used to determine when human life begins. At least not broadly, as we both apparently have established.

Physically separate? No, it isn't. But I don't see the relevance.

Its own biological entity? Yes, it is. It's not an organ or an appendage of the mother, it's a distinct organism residing within the mother.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

leftyderek

I would say, mentally, one abortion is more than enough, for both of the parents.
But in reality, there are just cases that you have to do it. Better not to have it if it would be an unwanted child.

__________________
-Imagine how beautiful the world would be if we could only do things for the first-and-last time. Imagine this is the last time you would ever be able to imagine. Imagine that.

-Die Lust der Zerstörung ist gleichzeitig eine schaffende Lust.

-...and god said
Lx1,go!
and there was light...

analog

analog

Personally, though i'm completely pro-choice...

I feel like it's one of those things... where if you have to think about it, and ask "is this too many?", it might be for you. Not for any moral issue, or anything like that, but at some point you can do harm to your reproductive system that you cannot undo, and at that point you may never carry a baby to birth. So... if that matters to you, consider it.

Otherwise, I would say, if you have to keep having abortions, get a better method of birth control already. A different pill, or shot, or condom, or something. Combinations of them. Something.

hannukah harry

it seems to me that how many is tied into whether it is viabe, etc.

how many is too many? if it is only a potential life, then there is no such thing as too many.

if it is viable outside of the mother, that can change things.

i'm pro-choice, obviously, and don't think there's some magic number that's *too* many. i do think that it's in poor choice to abort after 6 months, since the fetus could survive outside her womb.

some people have given numbers as to what's too many, told us ideas about how we could regulate it (counseling, suggest for sterilization, all of which are fine), and one person i think said something about only being allowed a certain number and then having to carry it to term (if i'm mistaken about that, sorry, i may have read that elsewhere). why would we force someone who's had 4 or 5 to carry them to term? i think if someone isn't responsible enough to use protection and get preganant 4 or 5 times, you think that they'd be responsible enough to raise a child? not me.

but you're right, analog, the previous discussion wasn't really going anywhere, because i think myself and people who agree with me won't agree, or change the minds, of people who disagree with us, and vice versa. so it's an argument that really is just a waste of time.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

snowy

People make mistakes. Condoms break. Antibiotics interfere with birth control. Etc, etc.

Unless a woman is systematically using abortion as a method of birth control, there is no magic number. Some people just might be horribly unlucky.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

hannukah harry

to play devils advocate, why is using it as a form of birthcontrol a problem?

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

FoolThemAll

Changing minds on this topic is extremely rare in my experience, yes. But what's much more feasible is getting more clear on how exactly we disagree. I'll always jump into an abortion debate for that possibility. Hell, there's still always that very slight chance that it might lead to changed minds over time.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

snowy

To me, it's an abuse of a system that is meant to be a safety net. Think of birth control (pills, patch, condoms) as a primary method of preventing pregnancy. A secondary method would be the morning-after pill (emergency contraception). The tertiary method, and the last safety net in the system of preventing pregnancy, would therefore be abortion. A woman and her significant other, in my opinion, should exhaust all other options before reaching the tertiary method. Furthermore, in the long run, it's cheaper to be on a consistent form of birth control. Birth control is readily available at county health offices nationwide for free. Abortion services, by contrast, are much more expensive. It's also a misuse of personal resources. However, if people want to abuse their own resources that way, fine. I still don't approve of it. Does that stop me from donating time and money to Planned Parenthood? No, I don't think so. However, I'd prefer that my shared resources don't go to support women who consistently choose abortion over other, cheaper methods of birth control.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

j8ear

Mr Mephisto,

I want to reach through my computer and give you a big ole manly hug, you big lug.

~That~ was exceptionally well said.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

xnicx87x

This made me really angry!your the one who is sick.Its nothing like that and im not ashamed to say that i myself had an abortion,i can assure you it isnt a pleasant expierience as YOU suggest i went through weeks of heartache deciding what should i do?When u have no support,money and the mother of my partner threatens to throw him out the pressure mounts up.AND YES I DO REGRET IT,iv been on anti depressants for over a year now,ive rried to commit suicide twice,so dont suggest that these women dont care about there children!I WOULD NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ABORTION,if i were pregnant again there would be no choice i no what id do.thousands of women are torturing them-selves because of people like you and your cruek opinion,have u been pregnant?you dont no how you feel until your in that situation.i agree once is a mistake,twice is cruel!as for looking at pictures of aborted children do you not think ive looked at that shit?!i asked to watch my scan because i wanted to feel pain that my baby would feel,also just as they put the PAINFUL needle in my hand i cried out to stop!but they continued,i woke up and couldnt believe it was over.i think about what i have done every day but i can torture myself enough wivout people like you (who have not been in that situation!)giving your cruel opinions,maybe you should think,before some vulnerable woman reads your opinion and it pushes her over the edge!

FoolThemAll

For what it's worth (and that may very well be little or nothing),

I believe that it's unjustified killing in all cases excepting life-threatening pregnancies. I believe that it's murder in the moral sense. I believe that it should be murder in the legal sense.

BUT.

I see it as an act that's very, VERY easy to rationalize. Easier that most other lesser crimes. Given that convincing (but ultimately incorrect, in my view) arguments can be made for the prenate not being a human life, I can imagine the act of abortion being easier to rationalize than petty theft or white lies. And I think that counts for something. Intent may not count in the arena of consequences, but I think that it should factor into the guilt equation. If the intent is wholly or mostly to go through an operation akin to an appendectomy, then that was the intent. Likewise for hardship arguments predicated on the idea that the prenate isn't a 'full' human being yet. I don't believe for a second that every woman, or most women, receiving elective abortions have malicious or callous intentions.

Additionally, I don't see the value in that kind of harsh, emotional language being used by, in this case, soccerchamp. It doesn't help anyone.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

xnicx87x

thankyou for this,i value your opinion even soccerchamps opinion(if it were put more sensitively)i think its a very very difficult choice and if i could go back i never would have gone through with it,but i cant and i have to live with the decision i have made.i respect everyones opinion because they are fair and every person is individual to have their own mind.i have repleyed it over and over in my mind what id done to that life,for it wasnt mine to take away.had i been strongwilled then id have kept the baby,iv wished a million times over i could take it back,if i could id giv my own life to that baby but the fact is i cant and i hope the life i took away will forgive me.there is a famous sayimg that makes sense in situations like these "you dont know what youve lost until its gone" and i would NEVER advise any woman to go through with an abotion as it is a heart-breaking experience.i hope that any women reading this can accept and come to terms with their experience and move on with their lives.

Nancy

A bit of interesting reading matter for you all:

Abortion Statistics - World

In 54 countries (61% of the world population) abortions are legal.
In 97 countries (39% of the world population) abortions are illegal.
There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.
There are approximately 126,000 abortions conducted each day.


Abortion Statistics - U.S.

Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996. In 2001, 1.31 million abortions took place.
88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.
60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old (this statistic includes miscarriages in the term "abortion").


Abortion Statistics - Demographics

Age - The majority of women getting an abortion are young. 52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)
Marriage - 51% of women who are unmarried when they become pregnant will receive an abortion. Unmarried women are 6 times more likely than married women to have an abortion. 67% of abortions are from women who have never been married.
Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.
Religion - 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic.


Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.


Abortion Statistics - Using Contraception (U.S.)

54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.
90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception
8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.
It is possible that up to 43% of the decline in abortion from 1994-2000 can be attributed to using emergency contraception.


Abortion Statistics - Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice

According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

The majority of these statistics were taken from The Alan Guttmacher Institute.

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.