At least it wasn't pushed.

The only thing about this (which by the way was a great idea) is that my mother had a Dr who believed it was his mission to prevent any woman from having more than one child, especially if they'd had to have C-sections. He wanted her to get her tubes tied after her second child. She said no. It was about 10 years later that after trying fruitlessly to conceive that her new Dr discovered that her tubes had been tied while she was unconcious during her second c-section. The biggest thing about this was that both my parents were educated people with college degrees, good jobs, and had two healthy children already that they were caring for responsibly. Now tell me why he did it.

Because, he suffered from a complex that allowed his dumb ass to believe that he knew what was best for others. I'm pro choice to an extent. My extent stoppes around the third or fourth time. i had a friend whos' now wife had three or four (quit possibley five, no joke unfortunately) and had complications when she actually had a child. they have two now and both came with complications. not that the child was hurt it was just a lot harder a child birth then necessary. its a complete lack of selfcontrol, and maturity that leads people to do things like this. take control of your life and stopp just letting things happen in it. that's my two cents.

doesn't follow? how doesn't it follow? until the baby is born, it has the potential of not making it all the way through the pregnancy. it is not a human life independent of the mother. it is part of her with the potential to become an independent human life. but that potential hasn't been met. now that i've added potential, does that follow?


i think this is a strawman or some other logical fallicy type deal, but here goes. yes it becomes dependent in a different way. and when it's 10 years old, it'll still be dependent in a different way. i'm 26, and i'm still dependent. i'm dependent on society for growing my food, making my clothing, being stable enough to have an environment where employment is possible. so that line of thinking really doesn't work for you. because once we're out of our mothers bodies, we're still dependent on something. the issue isn't when or how we're dependent, it's 1) it's her body and 2) the fetus isn't a seperate life. it has the potential, but not the guarantee.

No, it follows now because you added the word 'independent'. I'll not dispute the claim that it's dependant. I will dispute the claim that it's not a human life. I will dispute the claim that it's merely a potential human life.

This is my question: how does it follow from "it has a low chance of survival during pregnancy" that "it is potential human life"? I don't see how it does.

Uh, that's exactly my point: the criterion of dependence cannot be used to determine when human life begins. At least not broadly, as we both apparently have established.

Physically separate? No, it isn't. But I don't see the relevance.

Its own biological entity? Yes, it is. It's not an organ or an appendage of the mother, it's a distinct organism residing within the mother.

I would say, mentally, one abortion is more than enough, for both of the parents.
But in reality, there are just cases that you have to do it. Better not to have it if it would be an unwanted child.

Personally, though i'm completely pro-choice...

I feel like it's one of those things... where if you have to think about it, and ask "is this too many?", it might be for you. Not for any moral issue, or anything like that, but at some point you can do harm to your reproductive system that you cannot undo, and at that point you may never carry a baby to birth. So... if that matters to you, consider it.

Otherwise, I would say, if you have to keep having abortions, get a better method of birth control already. A different pill, or shot, or condom, or something. Combinations of them. Something.

it seems to me that how many is tied into whether it is viabe, etc.

how many is too many? if it is only a potential life, then there is no such thing as too many.

if it is viable outside of the mother, that can change things.

i'm pro-choice, obviously, and don't think there's some magic number that's *too* many. i do think that it's in poor choice to abort after 6 months, since the fetus could survive outside her womb.

some people have given numbers as to what's too many, told us ideas about how we could regulate it (counseling, suggest for sterilization, all of which are fine), and one person i think said something about only being allowed a certain number and then having to carry it to term (if i'm mistaken about that, sorry, i may have read that elsewhere). why would we force someone who's had 4 or 5 to carry them to term? i think if someone isn't responsible enough to use protection and get preganant 4 or 5 times, you think that they'd be responsible enough to raise a child? not me.

but you're right, analog, the previous discussion wasn't really going anywhere, because i think myself and people who agree with me won't agree, or change the minds, of people who disagree with us, and vice versa. so it's an argument that really is just a waste of time.

People make mistakes. Condoms break. Antibiotics interfere with birth control. Etc, etc.

Unless a woman is systematically using abortion as a method of birth control, there is no magic number. Some people just might be horribly unlucky.

to play devils advocate, why is using it as a form of birthcontrol a problem?

Changing minds on this topic is extremely rare in my experience, yes. But what's much more feasible is getting more clear on how exactly we disagree. I'll always jump into an abortion debate for that possibility. Hell, there's still always that very slight chance that it might lead to changed minds over time.

To me, it's an abuse of a system that is meant to be a safety net. Think of birth control (pills, patch, condoms) as a primary method of preventing pregnancy. A secondary method would be the morning-after pill (emergency contraception). The tertiary method, and the last safety net in the system of preventing pregnancy, would therefore be abortion. A woman and her significant other, in my opinion, should exhaust all other options before reaching the tertiary method. Furthermore, in the long run, it's cheaper to be on a consistent form of birth control. Birth control is readily available at county health offices nationwide for free. Abortion services, by contrast, are much more expensive. It's also a misuse of personal resources. However, if people want to abuse their own resources that way, fine. I still don't approve of it. Does that stop me from donating time and money to Planned Parenthood? No, I don't think so. However, I'd prefer that my shared resources don't go to support women who consistently choose abortion over other, cheaper methods of birth control.

Mr Mephisto,

I want to reach through my computer and give you a big ole manly hug, you big lug.

~That~ was exceptionally well said.

-bear

This made me really angry!your the one who is sick.Its nothing like that and im not ashamed to say that i myself had an abortion,i can assure you it isnt a pleasant expierience as YOU suggest i went through weeks of heartache deciding what should i do?When u have no support,money and the mother of my partner threatens to throw him out the pressure mounts up.AND YES I DO REGRET IT,iv been on anti depressants for over a year now,ive rried to commit suicide twice,so dont suggest that these women dont care about there children!I WOULD NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ABORTION,if i were pregnant again there would be no choice i no what id do.thousands of women are torturing them-selves because of people like you and your cruek opinion,have u been pregnant?you dont no how you feel until your in that situation.i agree once is a mistake,twice is cruel!as for looking at pictures of aborted children do you not think ive looked at that shit?!i asked to watch my scan because i wanted to feel pain that my baby would feel,also just as they put the PAINFUL needle in my hand i cried out to stop!but they continued,i woke up and couldnt believe it was over.i think about what i have done every day but i can torture myself enough wivout people like you (who have not been in that situation!)giving your cruel opinions,maybe you should think,before some vulnerable woman reads your opinion and it pushes her over the edge!

For what it's worth (and that may very well be little or nothing),

I believe that it's unjustified killing in all cases excepting life-threatening pregnancies. I believe that it's murder in the moral sense. I believe that it should be murder in the legal sense.

BUT.

I see it as an act that's very, VERY easy to rationalize. Easier that most other lesser crimes. Given that convincing (but ultimately incorrect, in my view) arguments can be made for the prenate not being a human life, I can imagine the act of abortion being easier to rationalize than petty theft or white lies. And I think that counts for something. Intent may not count in the arena of consequences, but I think that it should factor into the guilt equation. If the intent is wholly or mostly to go through an operation akin to an appendectomy, then that was the intent. Likewise for hardship arguments predicated on the idea that the prenate isn't a 'full' human being yet. I don't believe for a second that every woman, or most women, receiving elective abortions have malicious or callous intentions.

Additionally, I don't see the value in that kind of harsh, emotional language being used by, in this case, soccerchamp. It doesn't help anyone.

thankyou for this,i value your opinion even soccerchamps opinion(if it were put more sensitively)i think its a very very difficult choice and if i could go back i never would have gone through with it,but i cant and i have to live with the decision i have made.i respect everyones opinion because they are fair and every person is individual to have their own mind.i have repleyed it over and over in my mind what id done to that life,for it wasnt mine to take away.had i been strongwilled then id have kept the baby,iv wished a million times over i could take it back,if i could id giv my own life to that baby but the fact is i cant and i hope the life i took away will forgive me.there is a famous sayimg that makes sense in situations like these "you dont know what youve lost until its gone" and i would NEVER advise any woman to go through with an abotion as it is a heart-breaking experience.i hope that any women reading this can accept and come to terms with their experience and move on with their lives.

A bit of interesting reading matter for you all:

Abortion Statistics - World

In 54 countries (61% of the world population) abortions are legal.
In 97 countries (39% of the world population) abortions are illegal.
There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.
There are approximately 126,000 abortions conducted each day.


Abortion Statistics - U.S.

Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996. In 2001, 1.31 million abortions took place.
88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.
60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old (this statistic includes miscarriages in the term "abortion").


Abortion Statistics - Demographics

Age - The majority of women getting an abortion are young. 52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)
Marriage - 51% of women who are unmarried when they become pregnant will receive an abortion. Unmarried women are 6 times more likely than married women to have an abortion. 67% of abortions are from women who have never been married.
Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.
Religion - 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic.


Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.


Abortion Statistics - Using Contraception (U.S.)

54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.
90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception
8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.
It is possible that up to 43% of the decline in abortion from 1994-2000 can be attributed to using emergency contraception.


Abortion Statistics - Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice

According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

The majority of these statistics were taken from The Alan Guttmacher Institute.