Did I do the right thing? What would you have done?
 

So, my best friend of nine years got married Friday. Aaaaand, I'm not so sure it was the best thing for her.

Well, I set (I'll just choose names...) Suzie and Brandon up. They hit it off, and I was happy for them. Until I noticed things about their relationship that just weren't right.

Here's the kicker. She cheated on him at least twice before they got married. Once was the night he asked her if they could be exclusive. She and I went to a party, and she ended up with another guy all night. Then, a week later, she and I went to another party, and she ended up sleeping with yet another guy. But she wouldn't tell him. She said it would never come up. Said that she'd forget about it, so it didn't matter. That he didn't need to know. I tried talking to her, telling her that she can't look him in the eye and tell a bold-faced lie, that it was her responsibility to tell him. That if she didn't tell him now, he'd end up finding out eventually. She even disguised a hickey she got as a curling iron burn and put a bandaid over it. Poor sap believed her.

Well, enough people knew that "something" had happened at the party, and although they didn't know exactly what happened (except me and another guy), they knew he needed to know.

I talked to some guys about it, and asked for honest opinions. The response that I got from everyone was that he needed to know, and that I should tell him because I was closely involved in the situation. So I called him.

I told him the truth, he thanked me for calling.

I guess that my question to the guys is:

Would you rather be told, and have her end up being faithful the whole marriage, or not be told, and find out later on in the marriage when she gets drunk at a party without you and cheats again?


And girls: What would you have done?

If you really believe she's doing him wrong, you should have told him -- BEFORE the marriage. Of course you risk your friendship, but if you truly believe he was getting screwed over, you should have told him.

But it sounds like you let them get married without telling him. From my point of view, if you let things go that far without telling him, you've already let the damage be done. But they are a couple _now_, and it's possible that they might make it. So telling him _now_ might just make the whole marriage even more likely to fail. Even if she straightens up, maybe he'll now feel he's "entitled" to screw around a little himself, because he's been wronged.

At any rate, you let it happen, and now it's reality. I don't think any good was served at this point by throwing a bomb into his trust. I would have just kept my mouth shut and hoped for the best. And maybe, if she started screwing around again and you knew, tell him about that.

I did talk to him before they got married. He thanked me for calling him and talking to him. She had talked to him about it after she hung up on me (the day I ended up calling him), but she had given him minute detail about the night, saying "I might have but I don't know...." even though she and I had talked about it the next morning and I had told her then that she needed to tell him.

She has screwed around on almost all her boyfriends. She has only known this guy for a total of 3 months now (I do realize that some people who get married that soon stay together and happy forever), and while he and I were talking, I found out that he really didn't know much of anything about her past.

You definitley did the right thing, congrats for being brave about it.

Ouch. Sounds like the relationship is doomed no matter what. For his sake, I hope it is. Yet I can't feel *too* sorry for the guy, since it sounds like he knows enough to know that he should have done a little digging before he made the commitment. Ignorance isn't always bliss.

Yes,

I think you did the right thing in a very difficult situation. I would only suggest that maybe this person isn't the kind of person that you should be friends with.

Consider this: if she is willing to lie to the man she "loves" and is going to marry, what is she willing to do to you? (or is that 'different'?)

Anyway, best of luck to you.

I'm usually the one who posts unpopular opinions on threads like this, so why change now?

So, how exactly was it your business?

According to you, the female was your best friend, not the guy. So you not only betrayed her, but also probably planted a seed of doubt or mistrust in his mind, risked their marriage and also talked to others about the whole situation, behind both their backs.

Does this make you "feel better about yourself?" Do you feel you stand on the "high moral ground?"

What was the point? What benefit did it do to anyone?

All you've done is probably lost a friend, pissed off a friend's husband, put a marriage at risk, shown you are untrustworthy, shown you are a gossip, displayed bad taste and are the type to seek justification for your actions from complete strangers on the internet.

My wife cheated on me before we got married. I found out. It hurt (especially if you knew who it was with), but I got over it. We both love each other. So, would you have "helped out" in my situation?

I can't stand meddling busy bodies like you.


/rant off

There you go! Unpopular, and flame-worthy post.

:)

Mr Mephisto

I would want to know once it would have happened. Better "late" than never I would also prefer rather than the possibility of it happening again as a wedded couple. I would have addressed the situation, talked to her and see if we both wanted to continue with the marriage plans.
Personally, this is way to quick of a realtionship to even think about getting married. True that some people find their true love easier than others ... but if he (they?) don't know too much of each others past, that doesn't look good.
Best of luck to you and your friendships.

I agree with Mr. Mephisto. Personally I would have not said anything. It just wouldn't be my place. It really is a fine line and either way you're most likely going to look like the bad guy. If you tell or if you don't tell and he finds out later that you knew.

Tricky situation...

i'd want to know....

Cheating is not an event - it's a lifestyle.

I'd want to know, because it <i>will</i> happen again.

I'm not sure what I would have done. The other question is, do they have an open relationship? Maybe he's done the same thing? It is very murky ground but, if it didn't stop them from getting married, then don't sweat it.

Mr Mephisto: No, I did not feel better about myself. It was a difficult decision. I had to decide... do I not tell him and when he finds out later have him pissed at me that I didn't tell him when I had known all along, or do I tell him now and deal with the consequences as they may be. Judging from the fact that they A) still got married and B) He thanked me for calling, I feel that my decision was appreciated.

I'd thank you to not shit in my thread. I asked specific questions, looking for some helpful and constructive feedback. If you don't have that to give, please don't post.

I don't know.... Yes you did the honest thing, but it was your friend that should have come clean. You jepordized your friendship, and she could have denied everything, and still can. Personally, I wouldn't have said a word, maybe just telling my friend what a louse he/she is for what they did and telling them they needed to come clean.

But if your friends husband really loves her, he may overlook a once/twice happening. Love is blind, but a cheater once, is always a cheater.

She told him before I did. But she told me she had no plans of telling him...

If I understand what you're saying (ie, "once a cheat, always a cheat"), then you are talking out of your ass.

"It will happen?"

How about "It did happen, but now it's in the past?"

Let me guess. You've NEVER made a mistake in your life.

:)

Mr Mephisto

Well, I still disagree. I think you meddled in someone else's business. My questions, in case you didn't realise, were rhetorical.

Now listen here Sillygirl. You posted a question to an open forum. You asked if you did the right thing. In my opinion you didn't. I replied to YOUR question. The minute you hit that SUBMIT button, it ceases to be your thread.

If you don't like the answer, don't ask. Additionally, I'm not the only one who took this position.

I also want to say that I prefaced my reply with the (tongue in cheek) caveat that I often seem to be the "Devil's Advocate" in such threads.

Now stop being so sensitive and holier than thou. Either leave the subjest at that, or continue to discuss the matter. You won't last long at TFP if start accusing others of "shitting" on "your" threads because you don't like their answers.

Mr Mephisto

10 minutes later, after a de-stressing cup of coffee...

Sillygirl,

I don't mean to be hard on you and I hope I'm not coming across nasty on a "rookie."

I posted the reply you didn't want to hear. That's the beauty of TFP. You get to see all sides.

So, whilst I apologise if I didn't make it clear in my original post that I was being rhetorical, I don't apologise for stating that opinion. One that at least two others have shared.

Welcome to TFP and sorry for being so hard on you!

Friends? Just don't go calling my wife! :)

Mr Mephisto

I, being a girl, would not have told him. I know that it sounds wrong, but A) the girl is your friend, and that would be betraying her, and B) it is not your place to tell. It is not your relationship or life to worry about. If the girl wants to not tell him, it is her choice. It may be a bad decision, but it is her relationship to ruin and her heart to break.

OK - I was about to jump on you like you did <b>sillygirl</b>, but I re-read your posts, and, since I realize you have a non-objective, personal stake in this, I'll soften my response.

I can only speak from over 30 years experience since I started dating, but in those 30 years the only people I've known that cheated <b>only once</b> just hadn't got around to the second time yet. But they all did. eventually. Male; female - no difference. It's just like guys who beat up their wives - it never happens just once. I think it's a state of mind; a lifestyle choice borne of selfishness, low self-esteem, and an inability of some people to respect another person above their own short-term desires.

And yes - I've made mistakes in my kife - some of them not deserving of forgiveness, either.

If that's talking out of my ass, then cover your nose - I might not be done yet.

As always - Your results may vary.

I don't see how you think I have a non-objective, personal stake in this at all.

I just dislike sweeping generalizations like that stated above. It IS possible to do something stupid once.

There are such things as "serial cheaters", but that's not to say that everyone who has ever cheated is one. The same goes for everything.



Well, with all respect, that's just bunkum.

If I kill someone in a fit of rage, does that make me a serial murderer just "waiting" to develop?



There's very little in the world not deserving in forgiveness. At least in my world.

Heinous crimes notwithstanding (pedophilia, genocide, torture etc).



LOL

Ditto. :)


Mr Mephisto

sillygirl,

By telling on your "Best Friend," how did you think it would benefit her? Who were you trying to help?

When I read your post, what I saw was a spiteful person who just attempted to ruin her "Best Friend's" life.

I don't think it was your place at all. You should have removed yourself from this situation completely.

I rest my case.

Mr Mephisto

Personally what I would've done was cover my own ass.

I would've approached her and said to her "hey you're cheating on your boyfriend, and you're well on your way to fucking up your relationship if you can't be honest with him. I'm going to stay out of this and I want you to know that I won't assume any responsibility if you start taking a crap on your relationship."

If you get stuck in some situation where you have a moral dillema just cover your own ass, first thing.

I have posted this advice in other posts before, but in relationships like this, unless someone's life is in danger or unless someone is going to get hurt (i.e. the guy/girl is a beater) it is almost always unwise to get involved by telling. Getting between two people that are "in love" like this usually leads to heartache for you. Yes, I agree that once someone cheats it is easier for them to cheat a second time, but it doesn't always happen. What I think about the relationship is that they knew each other for far too short of a time. I knew I wanted to marry my wife by our 2nd date, but we didn't get engaged for 6 months and then didn't get married till we had been dating a year. It just made it easier to know for sure.

I don't think it's any of your business to tell the guy this story. I can't see that you telling the guy about his wife did any good. All it does is make you look like a busybody.
I don't buy the once a cheater always a cheater crap. People make mistakes in their life and hopefully learn from them. Sadly, some don’t.

Please try to be civil, or we will be forced to intervene.

Go ahead and tell, I would want to know. Especially if you feel responsible for setting them up.

PS - what did you do to intervene at the party ?

i can see both sides i guess but i think in the end my loyalties would lie with the person i was closest to. if the friend and not the husband was the one i was closest to i would talk to the friend about it and not the husband.

I did as much babysitting as my drunk ass could do. You can only tell a person "Are you sure you want to do that? Don't do that..." so many times before you get pissed off that they're not listening to you, but inviting you to join in. (in a nutshell)

YEP!!

My best friend has cheated a few times and I've bitched him out about it, but I would NEVER EVER go behind his back like that.

If I consider someone good enough to be a friend of mine, I tend to favor & support that person over other people. I'm sure that's insensitive and politically incorrect and whatnot, but I don't give a fuck.

By the way, the people that I talked to were either a) there when this was going on or b) not informed of WHO the people were -- it was hypothetical for them.

Wow, I'm shocked to see all the different responses. I'm even shocked at the responses from the different posters that I know from TFP. The thread also got so long so fast that I don't think I can adequately answer every point that I wanted to make but I'll do the best that I can.

This was a very difficult situation.

If I were in your position, I would, with great reticence, have told him the truth but only after telling her I was going to do so. I would also be prepared to piss him off and to lose my friendship. I'm not entirely sure if you could do the same which is why this may not have been the best course of action for you, in particular. It all depends on what your values are.

Is it any of your business? No, in that it's not your relationship and not your marriage. On the other hand, it's not as if she told you all this in confidence. You were there to witness it all! She obviously wasn't trying to make it a secret and so, while it may be obvious that she wouldn't want you to, you have every prerogative to tell him, whether it was for her, his, or your benefit (although I'd hope it was for his).

Are they necessarily better off? No, but they may very well be better off. Who knows? Life is hard and you try to do the best you can based on imperfect information and a lack of prognostication. I think this course of action has the best chance of working out, all around, but opinions vary.

Will a cheater necessarily cheat again? Of course not but is that really the point? I'd hate to use a cheesy analogy but if someone was selling me a defective product, I'd want someone to inform me! She broke a trust and he deserves to know! Whether she will cheat again (or whether he'd care) is a judgment he should make and the more information he has the better.
As a side note, I think that this particular girl will cheat again and I think sillygirl would agree.

Again, this was a very difficult situation and every course of action risks hurt feelings and lost friendships.

Oh, and if it were me in his position, I would want to know!

I've always hated this kind of thinking.

Have you ever made a mistake? Of course you have but there is balance to be had here.

Surely, a man who had raped and killed a woman can't very well just say "let me guess. You've never made a mistake in your life," as a rhetorical defense? This is an exaggeration, of course, but it's often a good way to make a strong point.

She accidentally slept with someone else? Twice? No, she didn't. She did a deliberate and malicious act against her fiance because... Well, I could let my imagination go wild but the truth is I just don't know. Does it matter? I don't think so....

The original poster said that 'once a cheat, always a cheat' (paraphrased). That's just nonesense, as I said. You cannot say that it "WILL happen again" (and I'm quoting the post here).

You believe a single act makes you out to be a serial offender (of whatever offence or act you carried out)?

What's the point in using a rape as an example? That's beyond contempt.


Mr Mephisto

But you must agree that somebody who has made such a mistake is not to be trusted as much as someone who has not. And some mistakes are easier to make than others - the severity of the offense must be taken into account.

People break plates and drinking glasses all the time, whether they are especially clumsy or not. The sheer number of such objects that people handle in their lifetime means that just by random chance alone a significant number of them will be broken. This does not mean we start handing the person unbreakable plastic or steel cups.

Most people, however, will go their entire lives without murdering someone - and murder, by definition, is a premeditated action, it can't be an accident. Therefore, we will treat a murderer with a high degree of caution - it would be naive and idiotic to the point of suicide to do otherwise.

It's also been said that having done something once makes it easier to do again. I've heard that this applies to heinous crimes as well as everyday habits and immoral behavior.

Cheating is a premeditated action, and therefore falls closer to murder and rape than you would think. In all cases, it requires you to make a concious decision - in this case, the wrong one - about your actions. And you must make the decision with full knowledge that there is a right way and a wrong way.

How many times is it going to take before you become a serial offender? Even if I murder 200 people, you can't say with any amount of certainty that I will kill another person. Maybe I was aiming for 200. Maybe I didn't have a goal but got tired of slaughter. It comes down to how much you can take, and really, one betrayal is one too many. Trust is like your mother's good china - extremely fragile, and very difficult to repair or replace.

Not necessarily.

Maybe the person is confused. Maybe the alchohol affected their judgement.

Quote:

And some mistakes are easier to make than others - the severity of the offense must be taken into account.

I agree. But the issue here is that I do not believe that cheating once means that you will cheat again. That's what the poster to whom I replied said.

Quote:

Most people, however, will go their entire lives without murdering someone - and murder, by definition, is a premeditated action, it can't be an accident. Therefore, we will treat a murderer with a high degree of caution

Of course

Quote:

- it would be naive and idiotic to the point of suicide to do otherwise.

Absolutely not. It would not be suicidal. It would either show naiety or trust or forgiveness. That is unless, of course, you do not believe in rehabilitation.

Quote:

It's also been said that having done something once makes it easier to do again. I've heard that this applies to heinous crimes as well as everyday habits and immoral behavior.

This is true and I would not argue that point with you. But what's this got to do with the point of someone saying that "once a cheater, always a cheater" or some such sweeping generalization?

Quote:

Cheating is a premeditated action, and therefore falls closer to murder and rape than you would think.

You live in a strange world if you think cheating is close to rape or murder.

Quote:

In all cases, it requires you to make a concious decision - in this case, the wrong one - about your actions. And you must make the decision with full knowledge that there is a right way and a wrong way.

That's not being contested.

Quote:

How many times is it going to take before you become a serial offender?

By definition, twice or more.

Quote:

Even if I murder 200 people, you can't say with any amount of certainty that I will kill another person. Maybe I was aiming for 200. Maybe I didn't have a goal but got tired of slaughter. It comes down to how much you can take, and really, one betrayal is one too many.

Again, whilst an interesting point of view, this has nothing to do with my argument against someone saying that if you cheat once, you will definitely cheat again. Indeed, maybe you cheated on someone you thought you loved, but afterward found true love and would never consider cheating. I know several people who fall into this category. That doesn't mean they WILL cheat on their new partner. Quite the opposite in many circumstances.

Quote:

Trust is like your mother's good china - extremely fragile, and very difficult to repair or replace.

Heh... True.

But is someone's trust worth anything if it's rationed out and revoked in spiteful little packages?

Your theory on trust goes both ways. Does Sillygirl deserve the "trust" and "friendship" of anyone now that she has betrayed them both by going behind her so-called friend's back?

Who knows? Only she does.

I think she was wrong and I believe (though haven't counted) that most people agree with me.

Mr Mephisto

i agree w/ mr mephisto :P
unless her cheating ways are getting in the way of your so-called friendship with her, you had no reason and no right to rat her out on her husband. she's supposed to be your [best] friend, not him. friends back up friends, for the most part, not their significant others. it's as simple as that.

When my friends do something morally reprehensible, I tell them very straightforwardly: "Look, I'm not going to make you face the music or anything, you know in your heart that what you did was wrong. I'm not going to tell the other party, but I am absolutely NOT going to lie for you."

Please read my post, again.
I think it's pretty clear that I was addressing your use of the rhetorical question "let me guess. You've NEVER made a mistake in your life." I even said in my previous post that "will a cheater necessarily cheat again? Of course not..." Why do you insist on attacking me on a pont I didn't make?

The point of using rape as an example is to compare infidelity to an equally deliberate act that's also reprehensible and hurtful.
Is it as bad as rape? Obviously not, but the severety of rape does emphasize my point.

For someone who came down so hard on sillygirl, you're easily offended...

Orignial post:
Response:
He didn't say they were close. He said that they were closer than you might think and then he gave you his reasoning. Then you respond with an inflammatory remark that borders on ad hominem? Think about this before you post a response...

Mr Mephisto:

- Maybe the person was confused? Maybe the alchohol affected their judgement? These are valid excuses because ...? If I kill someone, telling the family that "the alchohol affected my judgement" is such utter bullshit I would be embarassed to say it. The fact that anyone can even think to say this is just unbelievable. And what's to say that the person won't become 'confused' or drunk again?

- Say a person has lied to you. Would you trust them as much as someone who doesn't? If not, why not? You can't say that they will definitely lie to you again, but you trust them less anyway - doesn't this seem unjustified?

- Trust? Forgiveness? When dealing with a murderer, that's suicidal. Trust can get you hurt a lot faster than most other human follies. And no, I don't believe in rehabilitation, I believe in justice. The two are mutually exclusive in my book.

- If doing something once makes it easier to do again, it argues liklihood - in particular, higher. If she cheated once, it is more likely to happen again. Credibility can't be repaired. Everyone will remember what you did, and everyone will think less of you because of it. Whether you do it again or not, you've done it in the past, so you are now less of a person.

- Cheating is similar to rape, murder in that they are premeditated actions where it is abundantly clear to the perpetrator that what they are doing is wrong. But in terms of severity, cheating isn't that far behind more heinous crimes, in my opinion. Why wouldn't it be? Has betrayal become such a trivial thing in America? Because it is so widespread, has it become acceptable? Treason is punishable by death, and you owe more to your spouse than you do to your country.

- In all honesty, I don't think it matters whether you definitely will cheat again. That was the point I was trying to make in my 200-person serial murderer case. If I murder 200 people, it doesn't matter if I'm going to kill another person - 200 is 200 too many, and I am obviously not a person to be trusted around a weapon. No one can prove that anyone else is definitely going to do anything. We can only talk about degrees of possibility.

- I don't think there is anything wrong with going behind a person's back when they are doing something you believe is wrong. If you are doing something that you wouldn't want witnesses to, you shouldn't be doing it at all. The husband deserved to know - it is his wife, after all, that betrayed him. Attempting to shift the blame from the criminal to the witness is very like America.

I used to think there was such a thing as honor, but really, what kind of fucking idiot would think that?

Kyo, it's either funny or creepy that you make a rather extensive comparison between cheating and rape and serial murder. I do not believe that infidelity is at all comparable to rape and murder. It is very strange to find out that some do.

Laws of most civilized world agree with me. Cheating is frowned upon but is perfectly legal in most of the industrialized world. Perhaps it is okay in Afghanistan or Jordan to mutilate and murder women for cheating or having been raped, but I say that it reflects badly on their society.

I wasn't. I suppose I should have said "One cannot say...[/b] but the third person is often overlooked in modern speech. :)

Two points.

1) I'm not offended by anything you said. I just disagree with the sweeping generalizations of a previous poster.

2) Whilst I still think I was right, I posted immediately afterwards saying that I hope I hadn't come across too harsh. Read the thread. :D

Mr Mephisto

It's a valid retort.

I think the comparision is unreliable and inflammatory. It therefore adds no value to the discussion. If anything, that was ad hominem, in so far as it was appealing or referring to emotions rather than logic.

I also included a conditional clause in my statement.

Think about reading and understanding what I post before you comment.

Mr Mephisto

Well, I'm afraid in the much vaunted American justice system, such "excuses" do exist and are recognized in law. Have you ever heard of the "Twinkies defence" for example?

Would I trust someone who lied to me as much as someone who didn't? It really depends upon my relationship with them. If they were a friend who had lied and it was a stranger who hadn't lied, then of course I would trust them more.

The simple "black and white" logic you use is not the foundation of my value system.

Well you must live in a very emotionally cold world. I imagine very strict and harsh personal relationships if not a single infraction of any of your rules can ever been forgiven.

It's also a shame you don't believe in rehabilitation.

LESS of a PERSON?

Good grief.

I'm simply astounded that you equate rape and murder to someone cheating on a girlfriend or fiance. I'm glad I don't have a personal relationship with you, and I mean that with respect. I simply cannot understand anyone whose minds works like yours.

They weren't married. Reread the original post.


Mr Mephisto

Well, you could have used the third person but that still doesn't address my point, here.

I was commenting on your rhetorical question "you've NEVER made a mistake in your life." Then you retorted by saying how the original poster was making sweeping generalizations. What does one have to do with the other? The generalizations were something I did not address.


When I said you were easily offended, I was not referring to the generalizations, I was referring to your comment "using a rape as an example? That's beyond contempt."

Yes, I did notice that you said you hoped you didn't come across too harsh.

What's a valid retort? My retort? Your retort? His retort? I'm confused...

I can understand if you think the rape comparison was inflammatory but "unreliable?" What do you mean by that?
You must understand that you think it was inflammatory (probably 'cause it inflamed you). Obviously, I didn't or I would never have posted it. Your reaction to the subject matter aside, it was a fair comparison. Bad deeds aren't necessarily forgivable and it all depends on where you draw your line.

Yes, you did include a conditional clause and, I suppose, "living in a strange world" is a mild insult. Perhaps the Tilted Politics board has turned me reactionary.

I read all responses to my posts but I can't guarantee that I'll understand them!

This is making my head hurt.

Let's just agree to disagree.

:)

Mr Mephisto

I would dump a friend who wasn't honest in their proceedings, at least from my point of view. No good can come from something like that. I guess it would depend on how much you depend on your friend. :(

In summary, as far as I'm concerned, you should find a new best friend.

I totally agree with Sparhawk about how lies spread. Don't get trapped in one just for a friend.

Funny? There is nothing funny about any of this. But maybe it's creepy to people that morals might actually be worth someone's life. That betrayal is serious, not just some trifling social gaffe.

As we have discussed at length in the philosophy forum, laws and morals have almost nothing to do with each other. Whether laws agree with you or not is entirely irrelevant. I will break the law when it disagrees with my morals, because obviously one's personal morals are worth more than any official law.

In this case, I don't believe cheating should be legal at all. But of course, to enforce that we'd have to put the large majority of the American population in jail, and that simply isn't practically feasible. Sort of how I believe alchohol and smoking should be illegal, except that it isn't possible.

If I discovered my spouse was cheating on me, I'd have nothing to do with her for the rest of our natural lives. It would only take one strike, and she'd never hear from me or see me again.

Mr. Mephisto:

- Yes, I have heard of such 'defenses', and I think they're bullshit. They make me sick. I don't think very highly of our 'vaunted American justice system.' Not a single person that I grew up with does. We've seen first-hand just how 'effective' it is.

- I'd trust the stranger about as much as my 'friend'. But you introduce a new variable with a stranger - motive. A stranger could have any number of reasons to lie to you that you couldn't even fathom. Oh, and about the friend. Several 'friends' lied to me about something pretty serious a few years ago and they are no longer my friends.

- Emotionally cold world? It's strict, yes. But how does that have anything to do with trusting a criminal? A shame that I don't believe in rehabilitation? You have got to be kidding me. If someone murders my friend or relative, why would I ever want him rehabilitated? I would want him dead. Did his victims get a second chance? No. Then why should he get one? He should die like the worthless scum he is. An eye for an eye, a life for a life. But he got his second chance, because of our 'vaunted American justice system.'

- Yes, less of a person. Where's the problem with that? If someone is known as a liar, wouldn't you think less of him? If someone you knew was cheating, wouldn't you think less of them? If so, then they are no longer equal to the person they used to be - they are somehow less in your eyes.

- If I am married, I have made a very serious commitment, a vow - till death do us part. This sort of vow is worth something to me - it is worth my life, if need be. You say you can't understand anyone whose mind works like mine. Similarly, I can't understand anyone who could take such a situation so lightly. I don't understand so much of what Americans do and put up with. If someday I get married and cheat on my spouse, I will kill myself. After all, that is the vow I took.

I call it "calling them on their bullshit". I expect the same treatment from them.

In this situation I would have a really tough time making the call. It's fairly difficult either way. The question it comes down to is one of personal integrity. I will not allow someone else, even my friends, to abuse my trust so that I violate my own personal standards. They know what they can ask me to do and what they can't. If they don't want me making their life miserable as a result, they make sure I don't find out about it. Or they try to, anyway. I have a knack for putting little pieces of things together. In this case I would have been very clear that the friend could not expect me to assist them by lying or assisting them in a coverup. They made the choice and get to live with the consequences. If asked, I would have told the truth. I'm not sure I would have volunteered it though.

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Mr Mephisto

The point I'm making is that nothing is black and white. In the real world there are degrees of grey.

Quote:

- If I am married, I have made a very serious commitment, a vow - till death do us part. This sort of vow is worth something to me - it is worth my life, if need be. You say you can't understand anyone whose mind works like mine. Similarly, I can't understand anyone who could take such a situation so lightly. I don't understand so much of what Americans do and put up with. If someday I get married and cheat on my spouse, I will kill myself. After all, that is the vow I took.

Erm... OK.

You seem to set yourself very stringent and unyielding standards. So be it. I take it you don't believe in divorce then?

Mr Mephisto

Being drunk or being confused isn't an acceptable 'degree of grey.' They're both dark enough to be called black. I don't know which is sadder, someone dying because you wanted them dead, or someone dead because you couldn't stay sober.

No, I don't believe in divorce. If I take the vow, I'm going to keep it, regardless of what it costs me. Always keeping your promises teaches you not to make them lightly - something a lot of people need to learn. I don't know about you, but honor is still worth something to me. Of course, in today's society, I'm just an idiot, because honor is for losers that don't like to have fun and fuck whoever they want, lie, steal, and cheat to get what they want, and in every way take advantage of and abuse other people for their own personal benefit.

If asked, you would have told, but you wouldn't have volunteered the information? Say you witness a robbery. Furthermore, assume you are the only witness. Don't you think it is your duty to step forward with the information? Would somebody have to explicitly ask you for this information? What if it were murder?

If you would volunteer information in those cases, why wouldn't you volunteer it in this case? If anything, she told him a little late - she should have told him before the marriage to begin with. I think there's a clause in there about "speak now or forever hold your peace."

You did fine. Don't worry about it.

You did do the right thing - I'd be pissed off if it happend to me
but marriage after just 3 months !? Seems too soon!

Kyo - I did tell them before they got married... and at the reception, he was awesome as always and chatted with me. She, on the other hand, was as obvious as she ever is when she's pissed at someone. I didn't even give him information he didn't already have!

I don't recall who mentioned this, but I remember reading somewhere in here that if she wasn't asking me to lie for her, then I should have stayed out of it. (something to that effect, not quoting anyone). Well, she did in fact ask me to lie for her. She wanted me to be okay with her telling him that the hickey on her neck was, in fact, a curling iron burn (he believed her when she said it) and that if he DIDN'T believe her, to tell him that I gave it to her. She also asked me to back her up in any lies that she told him just in case he ever asked me if it was the truth. I was not about to cover her ass when I knew she'd just turn around and do it... AGAIN... like she has all the other times. Any of the guys in the club we hang out with that have met her have been informed (by her) of her nipple rings, have been shamelessly (and cheaply -- if that's a usable word here) flirted with, and know how she is when she's around guys. It WOULD happen again.

That this sort of woman could even imagine getting married is sickening. If I saw someone like her killed in the street, I think I'd be smiling.

very very brave, but if you want assurance that you did the right thing, you've got it from me

Now that's just too much.

You need therapy dude...


Mr Mephisto

I may have no respect for what she did, but that crossed the line...

"The" line? Your line, you mean? The line that society drew for you?

That woman crossed my line. You do not openly flirt with guys, sleep around while engaged, ask your friends to lie to your future husband, and then proceed to get married. To me, she is beyond respect, redemption, or mercy. I don't hate her enough to go to jail for it, so I'm not going to discipline her myself, but if someone else wants to do it I'm certainly not going to stop them.

Therapy for what, Mr. Mephisto? For having a concrete set of strict morals?

Yes, my line. The line that I draw when someone talks about one of my friends that way. The line that I draw when someone talks about anyone that way.

I know it's "interesting" to some that I'd jump in and defend my friend like this, but for someone to wish her dead is over the line. People do not need to die for things like that. Face the music, yes. Have to deal with the shitty things she's done, yes. But not die. People have done worse things than that to me, and I did not want them dead, either.

Therapy for saying you would smile if you saw someone, who didn't happen to share your sense of morals, die.

Judging from your posts on this thread you are verging on the sociopathic.

Mr Mephisto

Defend? She is indefensible.

Then I ask you - what would it take for someone to 'need to die'?

Mr. Mephisto, millions of people have been put to death (and still are today) for not having the 'correct' set of morals. Would you be happy if you saw a serial killer die? Would you be happy if you saw a rapist die? A drug dealer? Why or why not? I would certainly be happy.

A sociopath is defined by a handful of traits:
not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

Of these, I am guilty only of one - self-centeredness, as I impose my morals on others when I judge them. But tell me - who is not guilty of that?

Kyo, I believe we could easily come up with the money to have you sterilized so that we are assured that you do not decapitate your child for wetting the bed and lying to you about it.

I personally am inclined to agree with Mr Mephisto.

Although i can see it was an awkward situation i would not have intervened

Hah. Save your money, kind sirs. I intend to do the world a favor and remain childless.