Who are healthy male role models?
 

I've been thinking lately about being male and the perceptions of masculinity today and a thought crossed my mind: who are healthy male role models today?

I don't think I'm alone in that my father was a terrible role model, partly because he was an alcoholic and partly because he was largely absent, but mostly because he was withdrawn, passive, and otherwise not in tune with his children.

That said, to whom can boys and men look when it comes to positive role models? What does it mean to be a "good" man today? What are positive masculine traits?

I'm at a loss here and quite confused. Since the '60s and the sexual revolution and feminist movements, the idea of masculinity has been reshaped and readdressed. In many ways, the waters have been muddied. Some perspectives view masculinity as generally negative, while others view it as being in crisis. I'm sure many are just fine with what is considered traditionally masculine.

And these days, there is certainly a lot of focus on "girl power" and continuing making inroads into equality for women. But where do men fit into the picture when they view themselves and their own masculinity?

What are the challenges of being a "good" man today? What makes a "good" man?

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Holy mother of god this is a good topic. I am writing this so I will remember to respond to this when I'm off work and have a chance to respond.

My father is a good man. He is devoted to his family, works hard, and clearly loves my mom after 28 years of marriage. He is caring, compassionate, and a good friend as well as a good dad. He is our rock. My fiance is a good man. He is a bleeding heart in a lot of ways, but he possesses an inner strength I envy.

I think what makes a good man are traits that make good human beings, regardless of sex: caring and compassion for others, interest in life and the wider world, consideration for others, empathy, good listening skills, inner strength, supporting those you love, the desire to make a difference, etc.

Who can men look up to now? I think there are some great male role models right here on TFP, men who embody the traits I mentioned above.

My challenge in responding is separating positive traits of humans and positive traits which are distinctly "male". It becomes a highly antropological endeavor and falls on the line of offensive. "Hey, I know a girl who's like that. How dare you associate that as a male quality?!?!" So, rather than respond with that - please understand that I recognize the shades of gray and embrace them. So, here's my shot at it. You want a good male role model? Me. And I say that without a moment's hesitation.

I love and respect the women in my life as equals. I honor them for the strengths and abilities which I lack. I acknowledge and appreciate the distinctly feminine roles they play in my life.

I accept my distinctively male size, strength, and abilities. I accept the responsibilities which come from that size - be it physically protecting my family, mowing the grass, or opening a tight lid. Mind you, these things don't make me better than females, they are opportunities for me to contribute to the family as a physically larger human with greater stamina.

I am capable of providing for my family financially and physically. I can bring home a paycheck and I can bring home a hunted animal for dinner. I am not ashamed of this fact, nor do I revel in the taking of life. It is a necessary skill and others in my family can not do it.

I recognize how difficult society has made it to be a woman these days - the pressure to be all things to all people. To have a full career and still be a complete wife and a complete mom. To be pretty ALL the time, to be thin ALL the time. To be fashionable ALL the time. I am completely supportive of my mate when it comes to her sometimes wanting to drift with this tide and sometimes wanting to swim against it.

Besides that, you have the standard gentleman's manners of doors and chairs, handshakes, and iron-clad words of honor.

All other things like putting a marriage and family first in life, being honest, etc. I think they are just good human qualities to strive for. Nothing particularly male about them.

Just to mention a man who's unrelated to me, but is still in the public eye, Henry Rollins. To me, a young man, he's my role model. He uses his anger and frustration to get things done, his work ethic is through the roof. Aside from his view on politics, I agree with most everything he says. He gives out a strong confidence. He's always active in the activism world, supporting gay rights and entertaining the troops overseas.

All of those qualities are something I strive for as I get older. All in all, I grow a big rubbery one for Henry Rollins. Just sayin'.

people should be their own role model.

That worked out great for Adolph. GODWIN'D!


The gender of a role model is basically moot so long as you have access to a wide array of good characteristics. What behavioral aspect could a man have that a woman couldn't? My aunt (dad's brother's wife) could have literally ripped the testicles off Jack Bauer without a second thought. One of my closest woman friends loves women even more than I do. My first personal trainer was Billy Blanks in a C-cup. Aggressiveness, sexual assertiveness with women, testosterone-pumping activities: all attributes which in the past have been stereotypically linked to men. Masculinity can be found in any gender, just the same as femininity.

All that being said, I have/had a few role models that I certainly appreciate, chief among them my maternal grandfather, ex-boss, a few teachers from elementary school, high school and college, and some family friends.

what I'm sayin, is if people would worry about what they believe and what they should be doing instead of what every athlete, millionaire or movie star is doing, they would be better off and be happier in life in most cases.

I know, I was just giving you a hard time. And I felt like using the impact font.

I'm not sure if this is a Men's Lounge thread, but honestly, I think that younger boys and men do need a figure or type to look up to that doesn't have emo hair and that embodies the characteristics that make a good person. If you're actually looking out into the "celebrity world", I'd suggest the current Johnny Depp? Family man, politically aware, etc... but doesn't really embody the "masculine" spirit. He really does enjoy a lot of eyeliner. Baraka, this is going to take more thought, if the Ladies are invited to participate. But my SO and I have this debate all of the time... how men have been somewhat emasculated by being raised by single women, beaten up by "Girl Power" movements, and taught to bow down to their women in many economic classes/regions/societies. I'll get back to you as well...

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Seriously, though, I have no idea.

YES!

Just to weigh in, I can't think of one good role model for a young boy to look up to, and have their father alongside and state, "well, son, if you truly apply yourself to your aspirations and goals, you can someday be like ____".

Every popular figure in our media mainstream has faults, and with the way our journalism and entertainment news works, those faults eventually become badges of this famous person's personalities, even if it was a rare instance they faltered, for whatever reason.

I'm thinking of leaning toward writer, but most of the novelists I read and follow are not from North America. Also, while it's certainly not a selfish thing to want to nominate someone in your own family, or a notable person you are especially close with, chances are their status as a role model may only apply to soely you and your family, and perhaps a small segment of that person's community involvement.

For the most part, when the word "role model" is thrown around, it is usually used as a broad defining term for someone with wide-reaching status, a celebrity, politician, athlete, musician, millionaire corporate entity, etc.

And still, with all those choices, I still cannot think of one "just" and honorable man.
Maybe we're just inherently evil, and we find whatever good we can in a person and cling to that.

For me, though, if I were to ever adopt a role model, which seems unlikely as I've never depended upon the context of another's life to mirror my own drive and dreams, I'd look for someone who grew up in humble beginnings, and through sheer determination and an incredible ethic to both furthering their mind's intellect and current situation, rose above it all and grew to become a household name.

Maybe I could state that Andre Johnson should be able to pass as a suitable role model for young ones, as he is very humble, he works hard, is arguably the best at what he does, and toiled for years upon years to achieve what he has now, and does not take it for granted in the least. But then again, I don't know him all that well, so I may think of another to add later.

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END OF THREAD

Absolutely. That is why I am glad that my dad does what he does--he works in education, and has the opportunity to be a role model to thousands of students in his 40 year career. I'd like to believe that he has had an impact on those kids, and given that I've had the opportunity to talk to some of his former students, I know he has reached some for a fact.

Yes, educators.

Thanks for bringing that profession to the light, snowy.
I'd like to take this moment to thank all my history teachers, for they were all great role models in the 90+ minutes I saw them each work day of the work week for the past and last eight years of my education, consecutively (though a few were female, so I guess that disqualifies them in this discussion?).

But... all humans are flawed, so shouldn't role models be? I wanna be Steve Jobs.

I think we can agree that a role model is a person who has some recognition in their community, though community size can be extremely variable. I think we can also agree that role models are generally leaders in their communities, people who have -- in their respective field -- provided guidance or sought change. I think we can agree that role models also embody generally valued traits that we do not associate exclusively with one sex or another. Finally, let's agree that we are speaking in generalities, that men and women, for cultural and/or biological reason, differ significantly in their behaviour on the average; and that exceptions to this rule are just that, exceptions.

I think leader-models differ along their sexuality in their leadership and problem-solving style. From John Graham's book, Outdoor Leadership:

If men tend to generally fall to the left in their leadership style, particularly when NOT in the extreme, we can garner a sense of their actions as leaders and role-models. So while a masculine failure of leadership to resolve conflict might be belligerence, we can say that a good, masculine way of solving conflict could convincing others through force of character. I'm sure we can think of other examples.

As who, at large, embodies these characters, I can't be sure. I know certainly of friends and family who I would posit, but they do not meet the recognition needed to a role model.

I've had a couple of rabbis who were good role models, and an uncle. But in all probability, the guy who ended up having a disproportionately deep influence on my life was my high school English teacher, a guy named Barry Smolin. Among other things, it's because of him that I am a teacher today.

A good way to do that is to look at things you dislike and don't do those things. All you have to watch out for is generating an ego problem.

Thank you! :) That's a perfect example; why would it be good to act like you're depressed due to society's figure, as Durden suggested, by working generic, average jobs and spending your paycheck on the currently popular nonsense that you claim to be basing your life's attitude upon? (I may dislike "Emo kids"..) That's not the process to follow to make a good person out of yourself, it effectively means your actions are a circular process with no meaning.

Off topic, for being opposite: "Girl Power" movements are bad. They cast a shadow over gender equality by being loud and in charge, which is unnecessary nonsense since equality is what's important, right? I don't care if they're lesbians, that's fine, but they should stop yelling at males about it.

This man's only fault is that he never unites with the woman he loves.

I'm confused. I thought we were trying to enumerate characteristics of "good men". What was it about your high school English teacher or whoever that made him a "good man"?

Men who don't go around wondering what it means to be a man.

Not a jab at you, Baraka. :)

I take exception with the idea that the women's movement has anything to do with where men are at these days, rather, they are themselves trapped in the same mire as women have been since the industrial age of trying to live up to a certain packaged ideal of what it means to be a member of their gender in a society that makes their roles kind of nebulous and gives them too much free time to think about it. I don't know about any other woman on this board, but I'm not willing to go back to the age depicted in this thread just so men can feel more sure of their manhood.

I don't think male (or female) role models have to be perfect humans, but I do think the healthiest ones (for this day and age) don't think of themselves primarily as men or women. Therefore, it is my belief that women could just as easily be good role models for young men as men could be.

It would seem some of you would either gloss over the idea of masculinity and femininity or otherwise view them as faulty constructs; otherwise, it would seem you perhaps would like to make the case for androgyny.

I'm just throwing this out there as I'm taking in your opinions. As I said, I'm rather confused with this. I've never really had strong male role models in my life, and so I'm exploring whether masculinity is something of an issue when it comes to my own self-image and the self-image of men and boys everywhere.

Is there such thing as a healthy masculinity? Or is it either a construct or an old paradigm that is reflected in such things as print ads that today are deserving of ridicule?

Are men and women essentially the same but often caught up in social constructs of gender and sexuality?

Do women generally have the same impact as men when acting as role models to boys and young men? Is the impact the same on girls and young women?

I tend to believe so, but only based on my own experience. I don't think of any of the role models I've had as being particularly formative of my role as a woman. In fact, there is nothing (other than having a vagina) that I feel I have passed on to my own female children that is based strictly on the idea of 'this is an example of what it means to be a good woman.' Anything that I've done or that the people I have respected most in my life have done, whether I've met them or not, are to model characteristics that any man or woman could exhibit.

That's not to say that there aren't differences between men and women that shouldn't be enjoyed and reveled in...there are obvious physical differences. But those differences have no impact on my own conception of what is essentially a behavioral concept - being a role model.

This could be my own quirk though, and could explain a few things about some of my idiosyncracies. :)

heh...wrong tab.


Ahem. Anyway.


Masculinity. Hmmm. The men I've looked up as role models have all been family members. My stepdad, my grandpa, my uncle. I've been sitting here trying to figure out what it is I want to say about them, and the best I can come up with is that they are (or were) "tough guys," but when it came to their families, they are/were big teddy bears. So many of the traits snowy listed, I can apply to them-- empathetic, compassionate, hard working.

But really... my female role models have the same qualities. Tough, but loving.

There are studies on this stuff as it relates to education. I'll try and find more specifics, but I remember from my professional development class that there is an effort to get more men into early childhood/elementary education, as male role models for boys who do not have them are especially important, and there is a dearth of male educators in those age groups.

As I feared, this thread would sprint towards the political correctness rule surrounding the forbiddance of discussing male and female differences. The fact remains, we are different and having good male and female role models in a child's life is extremely important.

why is one opinion more 'politically correct' than another?
as if the people who don't agree with you aren't speaking their own mind?
why does it always seem you are taking this tack every time an opinion is voiced that is different from your own?
it's kind of tiresome

The idea that biologically functional differences between sexes would not lead automatically to a functionally different gender culture has always had its faults. The idea that our gender cultures are solely social constructs, and not biologically necessary ones, has never seemed like a very good argument for me. We can certainly adjust and modify these cultures -- hence the recent masculine confusion and it's sister female empowerment -- but we can never have a shared gender culture. It will not work.

Developing good social and mental health is dependent on our ability to transition boys and girls into their respective gender cultures. Gender culture helps to define our roles and responsibilities as adults; it gives use markers by which to measure our personal development even we conscientiously choose to ignore them. Women have an actual physical marker from girl to woman. They do not require the ritualistic transition that men historically held to mark boys as men, though they do tend to have them.

Our species didn't develop these rituals for fun. I think they are very important to our mental health and functioning. Role models developed as a 'target' for these rituals: upstanding men and women of our communities that whose example in manhood/womanhood we should seek to follow.

It's not my intention to imply that we should forgo gender as a cultural construct, just that the question 'who are healthy male role models' doesn't necessarily have to be answered with 'a good male'

I think it's far more realistic than implying that there are set behaviors and talents that are intrinsically male or female when that is obviously not true. And, could conceivably be more harmful than good for the young people who grow to fall short of those behaviors and talents without appreciating the positive characteristics they exhibit that are not gender-based. Being a man or a woman in the 21st century, particularly in western societies, is not as significant a difference as it used to be. In fact, I can't think of a single gender-based characteristic that I haven't seen at some time being exhibited by perfectly good role-model type people of both sexes.

What I do think is important is that children have relationships with good people of both sexes.

If there's no difference between you and your husband's role in your daughters' lives, then I ask you this: which one of you taught (will teach) your daughters about their menstrual cycle, how to use feminine hygiene products, how to choose their first bra? Uh, huh.

Now, if you did a good job at helping a daughter through that tramatic first experience and equipping her with the knowledge and avoided her feeling embarrassment and such - well then, you were a good female role model in that regard. I've heard of women who have traumatized the ever living shit out of their daughters in these areas. Regardless, it was the very fact that you were a female that gave you the intimate experience to provide that valuable support. Things one simply can not learn in a book (as a male).

I assure you, as a male, I am NOT equipped to recommend cardboard or plastic applicators...underwire or not.

We are different, and yet we are equal.

EDIT AND ADDENDUM: I fully admit there are far fewer things that a child may feel compelled to turn to their male role model and not their female role model. To reiterate my original post, my job as a male role model is to teach my son to respect women, to do the "heavy lifting" as it were, and to provide for my family in ways my particular (and excellent) choice in a wife may be unwilling or unable to do. The fact that the list is small means I get to focus on them more intently.

I think you are reading the question differently. We are just speaking about who men and boys should view as a role model, but also who the men are that should be viewed as a role model. Women can certainly serve as a role model to men and boys, but in a much different capacity. That both boys and girls require role models of both sexes is not in doubt; what you seem to imply is that roles models of one gender can replace the other. Women can certainly be role models for femininity, or citizenship, or other good contributions to mankind or society as a whole. But as a role model for masculine behaviour and responsibility women lack requisite equipment. Women are no different of course; they seek equally powerful role models for their gender culture. We will never be an androgynous culture; the best we can do is seek to promote non-androgynous, gendered cultures which are positive, not regressive.

Agreed.

very well, I suppose I am failing to address the question as literally as it was intended. I reacted, I suppose, to comments seeming to imply that men were emasculated by the women's movement, which I think is more than a bit of a cop-out. It's as if a white person were to say they'd been disempowered by the civil rights movement - and, of course, there are people who do say things like that, but their comments don't usually go over too well in mixed company, lol.

but it's a whole other topic, so I'll lay off now :)

Are there any "good" male role models? Sure. But good luck finding them.

Much of the problem of finding good role models of either sex lies in today's tabloid media. Sex sells, scandal sells, failure sells. And heroes sell. So a sex scandal about a failing hero sells best of all.

If we were to look at what would have been role models to earlier generations in the same light to which we subject our current public figures, they would likely fail just as today's models do.

What we need to do is tell our kids to look beyond the dirt of publicity about their heroes and try to focus on the accomplishments/admirable qualities. I think Tiger Woods has some serious moral issues to deal with... but he's a helluva golfer. I have no problem telling my kids to be as good a golfer as he is, and a better MAN (person?).

Personally, as so many have pointed out here, my goal for myself is to be not as good a man as my father was, but as good a man as my father WANTED ME to be. THAT is my role model.

I'm tired of this. (as stated by the OP, and later remarked by myself to search out another, I give you that other:)

An educator, a motivation speaker, a philosopher,
a special action representative, a known commodity,
an astrophysicist, a scientific author, a personality.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2035/...0ed951150a.jpg
Neil deGrasse Tyson. A role model.

I believe the "emasculation" of men may have to do with a diminished anthropological hunter role (think early hunter/gatherer gender roles). The need for the tasks that made men feel distinctively male, like hunting dinner, protecting family units, etc. have diminished over time. Any member of the family unit can come home with a full meal and feed the family. In modern society, the hunter is no longer a necessary role. We are all gatherers. Obviously, there are deeply rooted inclinations in man(kind) to continue those roles, though I don't know if I would call in genetic. When their necessity becomes ostensibly unneccesary - well, I think subconsciously men feel less...male, perhaps. What do you think?

I don't think it is completely out of left field to say that groups lift themselves up by attempting to put others down. It certainly happens in modern politics. However, one chooses to be a victim, so such an attempt by another group has to be "received" to be affective. Even if some group was belittling to "men", the only way a man could feel emasculated from that speech would be to accept that speech. To that end, an emasculated male has no one to blame but himself.

I'll give you an example where there is definitely a bias. Modern television commercials. Do a little science project and keep a tally: Notice commercials where one person knows what they are doing and the other person is an idiot. The person who's an idiot is ALWAYS a male. The person who knows what they are doing is usually a female. I don't so much care about the person who knows what they are doing, but it does get...tiresome...when the person who is the idiot is always a male.

Is this some deliberate attempt to emasculate modern males? I don't think so. Perhaps it's simply politically correct speech - the advertisers know that, historically, one demographic is the least likely to call and complain about negative stereotyping in advertising. Who knows, but the bias is there.

Anywho, back to my other wandering:

Personally, I feel the hunter skills are more necessary than ever, considering how our personal lives are now so dependent on the continuation of all parts of our global economy. If there is a catastrophic global event which causes shipping delays (or plane delays from volcanos), that interruption could cause long term food shortages. Due to the convenience of modern food procurement, we have forgotten skills that our fathers and grandfathers had from childhood. I believe it is the duty of a good male role model to keep and teach those skills. I've also learned to sew, as well, though.

Jeffrey Sachs

James Orbinski

Roméo Dallaire

and my stepfather.

He was unafraid to be creative, passionate, fun-loving, deeply serious about literature and philosophy, and to utterly reject the idea that he was somehow supposed to be "normal." He embraced being himself, and, unlike so many of my peers, made it clear that manliness was not merely a factor of athletic ability, or sexual prowess, or winning fights, or capacity for liquor. A man, he showed me, could be sensitive, thoughtful, artistic, cerebral, and easygoing-- and that those things also could be foundations for strong masculinity.

It was in his class that I read some of my favorite literary classics, and his discussions of them reinforced on me the notions that a man keeps his word, that a man behaves honorably, that a man stands by his friends and stands up for those who can't stand up for themselves, and so on.

And what is more, he told me to embrace my geekiness, my nerdliness, my bent for collecting random data, my love of books and movies and plays.... He taught me, without ever referencing our common Jewish identity, the very Jewish lesson that it is good for a man to be knowledgeable, and to pass on the knowledge that he has accrued.

Agreed. Great name drop, Jet. Andre is a good role model, he represents what will get you the farthest in life: hard work.

Go Texans.

As a kid, I can't say that I had any one male role model. Rather there were a number of men that came in an out of my life. In most cases, they were cautionary tales (i.e. what not to do). These were everything from Scout leaders and teachers to my Mom's boyfriends and Uncles. I took what worked for me from each and tempered it with a healthy dose of my Mom (who raised me by herself).

When I was 25 and my wife was about to give birth to our son, I was worried about being a father. I didn't grow up with one and didn't really have anyone to emulate. It bothered me. In the end, I need not have worried. They key, it turns out, is to just be yourself and do the right thing.

In the end, I hope I am good role model for my own son (and daughter).

I wanted to come back to this thread, as I am like BG and had no male "figures" in my adolescent life. My father died when I was 3 and I remember things that he said to me even in that young age. I know if he had lived longer, my life would have changed in a drastic way (I know I wouldn't be working in computers right now, as my step-dad was the person who brought computers into my life).

I know I have a sub-conscious need for a male role model in my life (my step-dad just doesn't fit the bill in my eyes) and often attach myself to older males to fill that need. I've looked up to various older males in my youth and into my 20's. I look to them for advice and those "life lessons" I think I didn't learn when I needed too.

The various males in my life have had different attributes for different periods in my life. They all had flaws (sometimes major) but all filled a role when I needed it. My last male influence was my last Chef who took me under his wing in the kitchen and invited me into his home when I needed it the most. Granted his abuse of recreational drugs brought the friendship to an end, he helped me a lot when I needed him. I think he will be my last male "role model" as I was extremely hurt when he lost control and shut me out of his life.

I'd respond to the OP's question with this answer: Whatever you feel fulfills the "gaps" or "holes" in your environment/personality that you feel are missing. No one is perfect, we are all humans no matter how we carry ourselves. I don't expect my male role models to not have flaws, just strengths that I want for myself.

*****

My mother has all been a role model in my life, for better or worse. "Generation of men raised by women" and all that non-sense. I don't want to go into that as there are to many strong opinions on both sides of the male/female role model issue.

My main problem with the idea that single motherhood is somehow 'ruining' our men is that it doesn't take into account all of the wonderful young (and not so young) men that were raised by single mothers and somehow ignores all the assholes that happened to be raised in two-parent homes. It's not fair to make them a scapegoat. I mean, if you want to be 'men,' then stand up and take responsibility for your own behavior.

I have never thought men were "ruined" being raised by single moms, just raised in a completely different way. Tyler Durden's view on this is like all the viewpoints in the book, at the extreme side of the argument, but does apply. He uses Fight Club to tap into the "male side" that has been surpressed, just as finding a male role model will help boys/men tap into a side they feel is a untouched side of their personality.

Argue about gender all you want, women raise children different from men. I'm sure a shitstorm of links will be thrown at me for that statement "proving" that as incorrect by years of studies done at high-ranking universities. It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. That said, we were raised differently, for better or worse, by single mothers.

As posted by my previous response, I still to this day have a need for a "male influence" and it is one of those things that will stick with me to this day. I don't say I had it "worse" for being a kid raised by a single mom, but I think I did miss out on a lot of things that I would consider "Dad activities" (especially in the deep south). I wish I could have done those things and now I have to learn how to do things that I put in the "Dad teaches kid at a lake side" category, Norman Rockwell style shit.

"Just stand up and take responsibility" is easier said than done, and it's deceptively simple. How does one take responsibility? What does that even mean? I think this is where a lot of men get lost. This is not to say women don't get lost too, but in the case of men, many of them haven't had the opportunity to observe male role models, whether they were good or bad.

Much of this stems from the absentee father, whether it is a single-mother situation or, as in my case, the father who works all day outside the home and spends countless evenings either sitting in a bar or on a couch watching TV and interacting mainly with sarcasm or teasing, either physically absent or emotionally absent. These are extreme examples, but there are degrees otherwise.

The idea of a "generation raised by women" or "the impact of single motherhood" isn't about blaming, scapegoating, or attributing all responsibility on women; it's about figuring out the real impact overall. It's also about placing the onus on men, whether fathers or not, and how they influence children and young adults.

Sure, our roles in society have become more flexible and less rigidly defined, but the balance is still generally in favour of traditional models: women tend to spend more time working within the family; men tend to spend more time working outside of the family.

This isn't the case across the board, and I think the times have changed enough that we're slowly finding solutions to problems we see, but you have many cases where children of both genders have little if any time with male role models. And I'm sure it's often the case that men are disengaged because they drop into family life after spending so much time outside of it. It's difficult to switch gears that way.

And then you have the common situation of two working parents, which means that the majority of a child's time is spent with influences outside the family, namely, school and after-school activities. And snowy raised a good point about male teachers and how their impact on male students shouldn't be underestimated. Most primary school teachers are female.

So what you get is both girls and boys interacting for a large proportion of their time with female adults. Unless you think that interacting with men and women is exactly the same experience, then you should at least accept the fact that there is an imbalance of influence with regard to role models and their impact on young people over their entire upbringing.

Coming back to responsibility. Do men and women do the exact same things to take responsibility over all stages of life? Are women the best equipped to teach or otherwise provide an example of how boys should learn how to take responsibility over each stage of their lives?

It's not so easy to think of these things. In a perfect world, gender shouldn't matter with these issues. But I tend to think that it does. As I said, I'm exploring these issues. I've enjoyed this thread so far.

To follow ANYONE on tv is very naive. "show business". not to say ALL tv personal are like that but to find anyone there before finding your surroundings is naive.

I was taught values, loyalty, persistence for the right thing (being; never take, steal, lie.) was a big thing.

in this world people with these traits will have a large battle in life where we are surrounded with everything to take this away and to stand your ground morally when you are alone, I have respect for.

as for the comment of, "these things are easier said than done." I agree. that is the great struggle that we have to deal with on a daily basis. If you can endure that, then I feel that this person has a good chance to keep these traits.

I grew up with a simple life and I have 3 sisters and nieces and nephews that still live to these standards because my hero was a father who fought tooth and nail to instill that in us. He succeeded, and now its our time to fight that great fight and past down the tradition of "standing your ground morally everyday when the world questions it day in and day out."

I feel that ANYONES parents are not perfect but to be taught to take from them all the good and weed out the bad and to improve what they taught you but still have the basic concept of being good.

I feel that most people are very loving and caring and smart but they dont care enough to teach that and fight tooth and nail to instill that in children. They go toward TV, or books.

Everyones morals and ethics are different than most, but I feel that we all live our separate lives and interpret them as we wish but to always carry that basic thought of being good and doing what is right.

As far as the man and woman being this or that. I feel that, yes good people can come from single parents but I feel that it will be STRONGER from a married couple. More stability, man/female views. Not just that, but how you balance that. there is alot more than my "post". It is deep. that is how I define roots.

I come from my own experiences in life, that I view this and see that I am very solo in life where i stand for things that "older" people stand for. I feel I live in a different generation where I stand my ground where some people question me though I still stand it and will learn from them but " i feel what is right" that this is what was instilled in me where I "feel" it and not know it.

odd and hard to explain at this time when I am not verbally competent.

I speak only from my own experience, as well. Which includes good men and bad men, good women and bad women. I'm still a little confused as to what it really means to have a distinctly male role model...I would say that most, if not all, the examples posted thus far are not necessarily gender specific, but rather just examples of upright behavior. I'll take your word for it that it really is *something,* even if you can't put it into words but you'll have to forgive me when I say that I suspect we are talking about angst...at least partly.

Was this towards me?

Though I do agree with what I posted above is an everyday learning experience for me.

I have to pick and choose what I believe and what make sense to me. I question myself daily if the way I live is a just way. This is just me trying to be a better person daily.

I feel we should all question everything and pick and choose what we believe from someone. So I will never follow what my family taught me to a T, but will still have the basic concepts of what I was taught.

Angst? hardly. It is just something that is instilled in me from so young that I know where I got it from yet It comes second nature to me and it gets questioned daily.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/ge...oss_whedon.jpg
Joss Whedon. Done.

“The thing about a hero, is even when it doesn't look like there's a light at the end of the tunnel, he's going to keep digging, he's going to keep trying to do right and make up for what's gone before, just because that's who he is.”

It sucks I entered this thread so late, but here's my input. Who is a healthy male rold model? Joss Whedon.

I thought a lot about this topic, because I'm a women's studies major, I've taken CLASSES on male role models and over-masculinity and blah blah blah. So I started thinking, who is a good role model? I think Joss Whedon. And Vinny, the guy who made Vinny's tampon cases, just becuase he's not a crazy idiot about periods, and also he seems like a sweey guy. But besides that. Joss Whedon. He's awesome.

He was raised by his single mother, and anyone who's ever seen Buffy, or Angel, or Firefly, or Dollhouse, or anything else of his, you know he is a huge fan of female power. An entire series based on a stupid blond teenager being super strong and powerful and having to save the world every other night? Yeah. That's Joss. He's funny, he's sensitive, he's smart, he's not afraid to identify as a feminist.

I just love him, he's so.....Joss. But that's just my 2 cents.

Wow. Huge, ginormous +1!

I'm glad you agree!!

No, I wasn't speaking to you directly. Just to the thread in general. :)

I don't think that making choices and trying to be a good person is indicative of angst. In fact, your words tend to support what I've been saying all along. At some point in our adult lives, we choose who we want to be and we act in ways that support that ideal (barring mental illness). I don't really understand how the lack of having a good male role model (for a man) in one's childhood is anything but angst. By adulthood, people know what is good and upright behavior and they either choose to go that route or they are consumed by narcissism or greed or hate or any other number of negative characteristics and they choose to go another. These are people with good role models in their lives and those without.

I could be missing the mark completely and I accept that. If so, I really would like to know what it is that is missing. How do you who feel like you missed out on early male role models feel you would be different today if you had them? What kind of psychological nuance are we talking about?

If there is no role model, of whatever type, throughout childhood, then that formative phase of life has lacked instruction. Yes, adults know which route they should take, but that doesn't mean it's easy. If that's what you mean, I think just saying 'angst' is putting it lightly. There can be a lot of pent up anxiety, and shoving it all down by choice can be tough. I had to teach myself that my troubles are specific to my persona, and seem so bad because they're pushing my limits. Anybody else could feel as bad or worse, because the extreme feeling of the situation is determined by comparison to previous experiences. So, the severity should be dealt with, not acted on, because you can't know it is truly as bad as it feels.

I never thought of Joss Whedon as a role model. I finally watched most of Firefly in the past few months, but I thought a few episodes were terrible and others had plot ruining lines whose inclusion explained why the show was canceled, or that episode was never aired. I think him being a role model is very dependent on how your perceive his stuff. I thought it was lousy and designed to appeal to certain stereotypical female angles. Discussing it with female friends has made some Firefly less enjoyable for them, and some Star Trek less enjoyable for me. So be careful when you recommend Joss Whedon :)

I wasn't referring to a childhood with no role models. Psychological distress can be influenced by all manner of experiences (or lack thereof). I'm not even sure we are talking about the same thing.

But whatever, it's not a big deal.

I may be covering points that have already been covered, and I'm speaking purely from experience and from a male perspective.

Boys and young men absolutely need positive roles models or male figures in their life as they're going up. We also need positive female figures too, it's very much a balance in my opinion.

I went to an all boys high school in Australia, and looking around these days I think there is somewhat of a crisis in regards to positive male figures in the lives of many boys and young men. Males need to bond with other males, and we so often take our queues from our older peers and male figures, especially when it comes to women. I really don't think it is enough for young males to just have positive female figures to learn respect to women, it really must be reinforced with positive male figures too. The consensus of ones peers has a profound affect on shaping a persons attitudes.

Young blokes need to feel like that they belong to something, and a way to constructively use all that raging testosterone as they become men. An environment in which they can release all the anger, rage, and almost animal need to be aggressive and fight that is constructive and relatively safe. That's why I think sports can play a part in young males lives. However, I'm well aware of the danger of young men using sports heroes as their sole role models.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that it can't just come down to one male role model in a young males life. There are many figures that can have a profound positive, and just as easily negative, affect. The father figure, the older brother figure, the teacher figure, and the male figures that are their peers.

Mixmedia, While it's all very well to say young men shouldn't be walking around questioning what it means to be a man, I'd like to ask why not? I'm not going to blame women, at all, I think at the moment both young males and female are entering and age where we define are roles on the fly, or are really learning that roles don't have to be defined at all. But in an age of instant communication, the social environment for kids growing up now has completely changed and is still changing. I think its critical young men ask themselves what it means to be a man, just as young women should consider what it is to be a woman.

The fact still remains that in this society there are still societal norms. I can say from experience and from the young male friends of mine who are still teenagers, things are incredibly confusing. I think gen Y are being left to figure out a hell of a lot of things out on their own, and aren't really being given much of push in the right direction. With the amount of fuzz, white noise, hypocrisy, and misinformation that the modern media and the internet bombard them with, is it any wonder young men who lack many male figures in their life question where they stand? These are the young men who are most at risk of developing depression or start walking down some bad paths.

Melbourne, where I live, is seeing violent crime, especially violent crime that involves packs of males, getting way out of hand. There has been a disturbing cultural shift where young blokes find it acceptable to gang up on one person in simple bar fights, where before this wasn't so much the case. The question is, why?. If the male figures in the lives of these young blokes made it clear that this kind of behavior is absolutely not on, would we still see this concerning rise in violent assaults on the streets of my once chilled out city?

I've said it a number of times to my friends, but I can't help but feel that Australia reintroducing national service for both young men and women would do a hell of a lot to help some of these problems. And this is coming from a feel good lefty hippy.

This is a very interesting topic, to be sure, and I think it's certainly something that both young men and women should think about and ask themselves. We don't all have to come up with definitive answers, I think that would be silly, but posing the question is better than having our youth running headlong into the dark.

I guess I am just completely out of touch. Or I attribute the kinds of things you observe to wider phenomena. I agree that we still have societal norms and that there are people growing up who understand that they can live outside of them...which I'm not certain is such a bad thing necessarily.

I don't suppose that young men are ganging up on others because they don't know it's wrong. They do it because they don't care if it's wrong. Young women have their own ways of doing this, too. I'm not sure that they do it because there are no role models, though. After all, apparently young women have plenty of good role models...then why are they fucked up, too? And they are...just as much as young men.

Despite how it looks, I am not trying to be contrary. I thank you for taking the time to reply so thoroughly. Like I've said several times before, I'd like to understand how a young man's future is changed by not having a direct male role model (because I'm not sure it's accurate to purport that there are no male role models). I'm not ready to accept that they don't know what is right and wrong behavior. Obviously we have men here on the board who are fine, good people who feel they didn't have them. What does it really mean to feel you don't know how to be male?

Maybe my confusion comes partly from the fact that I don't feel I had any strong role models. As much as I love my parents (aunts, uncles, grandparents, all of them) and think they are good people who love me fiercely, they aren't really the type of people you would call 'role models.' I won't go into details because they are my family and I love them, but I think it's fairly safe to say that I learned as much about how I wanted to be as an adult by observing what I didn't want to be, as much as that which I did. It wasn't until adulthood that I recall meeting people who seemed 'ideal' to me. My stepfather being one of them (who didn't come into my life until after my first child was born). So, like everyone else here, I am just speaking from my own experience. I'm not perfect, but I am happy with how I am as a person and a woman, even though many people might disagree with me.

But admittedly, it is in my nature to question norms and standards, even be suspicious of them to some degree.

Mixmedia, you'd be no more or less out of touch than I am, we're all commenting from our personal experience. But as someone who went to an all boys high school and saw the very different ways in which you males grew up in their different circumstances, I can honestly say, young men having a positive male role model or influence in their life can make such a big difference.

For a lot of people, they figure it out on their own. But for the young and confused who are at risk, the lack of these positive role models can make all the difference. I knew a priest down here who got a lot of at risk kids into boxing. It was a great way of getting young angry males off the streets and direct their anger into something positive.

To answers the OP's original question of what makes a great male role model, I find myself geeking out and thinking of SciFi characters like William Adama (BSG), Malcolm Reynolds (FireFly), or WallE (totally joking, but such an awesome movie).

There's no point denying the differences between men and women, and young men and young women. We're different on profound levels, and I feel need different kinds of mentoring while growing up. However, it's important that we don't focus on those differences and use them as an excuse to divide or discriminate. I've said it often enough here, for all the difference between us all, we still have the same drives and fears as each other.

I guess what all my rambling is getting down to is that growing up and life can be more than a handful for some. I little bit of help and direction from the right kind of people can make all the difference. I can say in all honesty, if it hadn't been for some of the strong role models who took and interest and gave a crap, I probably wouldn't be around today.

Switching gears a bit:

I think the consensus here is that, society has a difficult time even identifying distinctly male qualities. So, what does that say? Have we changed that much?

I'm absolutely not picking a fight here, I just find it fascinating that a women's studies student chooses her best example of a good "male role model" as one who dedicates his career to feminist media productions. Could you further explain why that is a good male role model and in what context? Perhaps you mean for young ladies? Do you have an example of one for young men? (so that your choice there might help me better understand your first choice.)

So, I've been cruising the Art of Manliness blog and just listened to an interesting podcast of an interview with Walker Lamond author of Rules for My Unborn Son. In it they talk about the rejection of the traditional male role models of the forties and fifties and how there was nothing to take their place once those role models were dethroned. The phrase they use is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". They makes for a good read and listen, the point is that there were problems with those role models (like authoritarianism, sexism, racism...) and while we were right to get rid of them, we also lost many of the valuable things that those role models provided such as leadership, integrity, respect and a willingness to take on responsibility; in short just growing up. Without any good male role models to take their place these qualities have subsided in the new generations of men.

The challenge with identifying male role models is recognizing people who are 'quality' men; folks young boys can emulate. It isn't that there is anything distinctly masculine about responsibility, leadership, etc. but it can be difficult to find a male role model for a boy to have actual contact with on a regular basis who has these qualities.

Movies -- Bruce Willis
Music -- Bruce Springsteen
Politics -- Bill Bradley

All you have to do is look to NJ...

I know who aren't ...

those who cringe at the thought of holding a guy's hands.

And the worst role models are those that put another man down for holding another man's hands.