Fucking DCFS
 

Now I know there is a lot of fucking horrible parents out there who need to have there children taken from them. But they DCFS is going overboard lately. My friends son was taken from her because she accidently dropped him and his leg broke. Now I know this person and I know she would never hurt her son.

I have had an issue with this before. I went to Primary Childrens Hospital because my 2 month old had a bruise on her head and some blood dots in her eye. I went to my kids usual doctor and he wanted to make sure it was not a brain bleed, so he sent me to a hospital that specializes in children. They had me in there for 12 hours telling me that something had to happen for my daughter to have a head injury at 2 months old. Long story short they found out there was something wrong with her and they did not take her away from me, but they scared the crap out of me. I went there to find out what was wrong with my daughter and ended up scared of taking my kids to the hospital.

Now I understand that there are parents out there that do hurt there children and should have them taken away. But do they ever think that when they go overboard that parents are gonna get scared of losing there kids when a accident happens? I mean honestly. I had a well check up for my 18 month old that I rescheduled because she hit her head on the coffee table and had a bruise. I don't want to fear having my kids taken from me everytime I need to go to the hospital. :no:

Whats everyones thoughts on this? What can we do to change this? Or is there nothing we can do to change this? :oogle:

It is ridiculous sometimes. Why should a parent have to worry about a doctor seeing a kids bruise. I don't think I could handle that kind of stress of feeling I have to hide every bump. I don't know what you can do, but being scared to take your kid to the hospital means there is absolutely something wrong with the system.

It's one of those things where if they err on the side of too draconian, people get pissed, but there's no reporter on their lawn asking them why they put a child in danger who later died in that situation.

I have no kids and will be flamed for this but try to consider this ... children who are abused NEVAR come out. They will tell no one and will follow their parents story to the letter ... "I fell."

I feel about this the same way I feel about airport security. If you have nothing to hide you should be fine. If she did indeed drop her kid, I'm 100% sure there is process you can go through to get it straightened out and be reimbursed for the inconvenience.

I believe in the system so much so (gullible aren't I?) that I feel whether or not the child was abused, he/she will still be treated. But my point is ... every gun is loaded at all times, every injury is an abuse unless proven otherwise.

My ex has called DYFS (NJ version of the same thing) on me around a dozen times. The DYFS workers have realized that she is abusing the system but they have to check out any call that comes in. We went to court for visitation issues and the judge said that he would not tell her that she couldn't call DYFS. My lawyer made it clear to her that we would press criminal charges if she continued and (for now) the calls have stopped.

Karma is a mother fucker though... her current (soon to be ex) husband called DYFS on her for legitimate reasons and now she has had all of her kids taken away from her.

So yes I feel your pain, and yes something needs to be done about the power that they have.

Xerxes, that is a rather altruistic stance. As an abused child, grown into adulthood, I would like to say that I turned out pretty damn good in spite of the abuse. Of course, the abusing parent in my cause was caught and imprisoned, but that did nothing to aleviate the 6 years of physical, mental and sexual abuse that me and my siblings endured.

As an adult, I have had to deal with child protective services many times. When I got custody of my kids from my ex wife, she would call in bogus complaints twice a week, and state law requires CPS to investigate every complaint. The system is very draconian. They can go to your child's school, pull them out of class and question them at any time, without notifying the parents that they are going to, OR have done so. This was VERY stressful to my children, and I ended up getting them counseling just to deal with the stress. There was never any apology, recompense or even so much as an acknowledgment from them that they were causing harm to my kids simply by their jackbooted tactics.

The system is severely broken. I know parents who have lost their kids because the kids got in a fight and one of them broke his skull. The parents got blamed because they were outside when this happened (they were working in the horse field repairing a broken fence and the kids were teenagers) It took them six months and close to $75,000 to get their kids back. Did CPS apologize, did the doctor who filed the complaint apologize, did my friends get a single penny of that money back... no. I also know of a father right now who is abusive to his sons. I personally have filed complaints, and I know a few others who have as well. The boy is one of my daughter's boyfriends, and he has told me of some of the abuses. It goes way beyond an occasional spanking. This father has been investigated by CPS and nothing has ever come of the complaints. I am near to the point of going personally over and beating the man to within an inch of his life, but that will not help his boys, because he will just take it out on them first chance he gets. My point here is, the system is broken, it punishes good parents and too often overlooks real abuse.

They have too much power.

I knew this one couple who had a kid with a disability. Great parents that would give up anything for their child. The state covered the medical expenses and everything was good. After a little while, the CPS said that unless the kid was with them, there would be no state money for the treatment. They said some bullshit like "trained professionals need to be with this child at all times in this treatment". Last I heard the couple is paying out of pocket for the ridicuolous expenses.

I don't know how it is in all states, but my wife works in this field in Kansas. In her experience, children have never been taken away from even borderline fit parents. And the ones that have been were after repeated attempts to make the situation at home better. She has however told me more stories than I care to recall of children who have not only died at the hands of mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, or mom or dad's latest boyfriend or girlfriend.

Many states require people in certain positions such as teachers, child care providers, health care workers, etc. to be mandated reporters. Could some of the people be overzealous? Sure. Are most of them likely doing a good job? I'd bet yes.

The problem with neglect and abuse and children in this country is a bigger problem IMHO than someone having to answer some questions when they take their kid to an emergency room. And I also believe the action of a parent that would hesitate to get their child the care they need because they are afraid of answering these questions is neglect.

When I started this thread it was right after I found out what happened to my friend and I needed to rant. I understand that in some circumstances that kids get taken away after repeat offenses but in this case there was no way. My friend has an energetic accident pron 2 year old. I mean how many 2 year old's do you know that go longer then a couple of days without running into something or just falling. But the truth is I have no idea if she had taken her son in for another reason and a red flag came up. But I know her well enough to know that she would not hurt her son. And I don't know how things work where you are from but here they just need to suspect something and they will take over your lives.

Now a little more about my past. I had alcoholic parents that would always get into fights. When I was 8 I started stepping in to help my mom and got caught in the middle. My dad would start taking things out on me. DCFS was called many times, and sometimes I would be taken away. So I am on both ends of the spectrum. I understand how it could be a good thing, and then on the other had it can ruin families. I don't know if I got red flagged because of my past with my dad but they wouldn't even listen to me, like I was a monster that would hurt my 2 month old baby. I never felt more horrible in my life. What made me scared was they talked to me like they already thought I was guilty. I know DCFS is needed, I just think things need to change. I don't think parents should fear going to the hospital when there kids get hurt. I don't believe the whole "guilty tell proven innocent" analogy should be used the first time you go to the hospital, especially if there are no signs of abuse.

Well, there ain't much you can do but make the love between you and your kids a lot more obvious, which will change what a doctor will assume of you, maybe ask his family over for dinner and a play, and just be completely relaxed in how you pass discipline no matter what.

This may be a bit more than a suggestion, but it is your options that are narrowed by the situation anyway. In short, it sucks, but you can still live without fear if you really want to.

I guess it goes both ways.

I think if to say that I still can live without fear if I really wanted to was funny. I don't live with fear. Its there but it is not present all the time. And to say what you just did makes me feel that this has not been a major part of your life like it has been mine. Maybe you should think about the fact that it is more relative in others lives then it is in yours. I now have a friend who is questioning if she is a good mother because of how she was treated at the hospital by close minded doctors who may have looked at her appearance and age and decided that she looked unfit to be a parent. I know every situation is different, but in this case I think it is tragic what happened and I do think things need to change.

For the record, DaniGirl's friend is my sister. The child they took is my nephew. This is a pretty personal issue for me at the moment.

I'm not mad DCFS took my nephew. The story my sister told in that emergency room fits a profile. It's not very likely for a child to break his leg due to a short drop. My sister fits a profile. She's a 20 year old single mother with tattoos and a sour attitude.

Most importantly, though, my sister is the best and most caring mom I know. She doesn't believe in physical discipline to any extent. If anybody even swats that boys hand, she goes off the fucking handle about it. She did not do anything intentional that led to her son's broken leg.

I know that. Everybody else who knows her knows that. DCFS cannot be sure of it until they do an investigation because of the red flags that have been risen. I understand that. My worry is that, in my fairly extensive experience, Utah State Department of Child and Family Services does everything they possibly can to remove the child from their parents once they initially remove them. I've seen it time and time again. The child gets taken and then the parents spend years jumping through hoops, dealing with humiliation, and going way above and beyond what should be expected of a parent and still never getting their kids back. Meanwhile, the children go back and forth through the system.

You know, my sister struggles because the father of her son is a useless, drugged up transient, she's trying to go to school, work, and take care of her kids by herself, she currently lives in my step-father's front room because of all this, and now she has to go through the humiliation of being called bad mother. Furthermore, all those things she's struggling with are going to be used against her as evidence that she's a bad mother.

It's fucked...

Thanks for sharing Gebbinn.

Well, no, actually it's very personally motivated. If it was up to me, people would have to get on planes naked with their luggage delivered on a second plane.

But the thing is, a cold could be a sign of abuse. Abuse would range from neglect to physical to mental to sexual ... the list goes on and on. Seeing as I'm not a doctor, I think the folk that work at your hospital have seen many cases that present similar injuries such as yours (and your friends) so they erred on the side of caution.

I agree completely with Gebbinn here that the system is broken and seems to shine when they display heavy biases and can erode a child's progress to growth and learning. But does no one think that they have lasted this long not because they have had a free pass all along but because their tactics deliver success more than failure? Either that or no one has a solution and just doesn't want to deal with the complexities involved in managing kids and families.

That said being overly cautious can be a bad thing most of the times, but we seem to have no other choice here.

If I see a suspicious bruise on a child, I HAVE to report it. I have an ethical duty and a legal obligation to do so. I have been through the abuse recognition training; every mandated reporter must do so in my state.

It is better to investigate and find nothing than to end up with some of the horrendous cases out there that have gone uninvestigated. Truly fit parents have nothing to worry about.

You know, I agree with teachers watching things like this. They know the kids, and can even get to know the parents. Whereas, a department of counselors that only see the kid when an issue arises and know nothing of the family life shouldn't have enough power to remove a kid from his family just because what happened seems a little sketchy. They should be keeping an eye on my sister and her son, not looking to put him in foster care.

I could tell it was a rant. And I very well do not know your friend and so am not accusing her of hurting her child. Chances are the people involved don't know her either and simply are doing their jobs.

We have good friends who had a son have a radial break of a bone in his leg when he was four. This type of break is common in abuse and indicates a child being picked up by the leg or arm or having the leg or arm twisted. They too had to go through a fair amount of questioning.

I know it sucks, but really children have no voice.

I'm a mandated reporter as well. But, I see a system in Florida where too many children are given back. Too many kids are NOT detained when they should be. They've gotten so lax that a DCF worker fell asleep in her car with a detained child in the back seat, they think drunk, that kids go back to parents and then die from the abuse. Several in the last year. If you've nothing to hide or an energetic kid then so be it if they investigate you. There should be a process between detainment and permanent removal. If not, then, yes there is a problem with the system. The problem with the system in Florida is that the goal in the courts is Reunification with the parents. Good parents get their kids back from detainment. So do those who put on a good front, pass a home study, and beat the shit out the kid two days after they get back for "telling". It's never going to be a perfect system. But for the kids it does save, at least it's there.

How is this a problem?
How would you "fix" this problem and make it better?

The problem is that they're doing this without enforcing that the case plans are followed through with and that parents are actually continuing to follow through after return.
When the official goal is Reunification, then there is a lot more slack given to parents in what they have to do to get their children back. When the goal is appropriate placement, there is more that parents must do in order to prove that tehy can provide an appropriate environment.

What would I do to change the system? First, they need more money, I understand. and DCF here lost a lot of funding. But it's bullshit to not follow up better with families and to actually leave a desk instead of calling a family to "see how they're doing." Parenting classes are being cut, drug tests are not being administered as they should. Things that a parent with good skills would easily be able to complete and get their children back. Unfortunately, they're not being given manageable caseloads so things are getting dropped. And drunk DCF workers aren't caught until they endanger a child. I think that the welfare of the children needs to be a court focus, not reunification across the board.

For example... and then I'll get off my soapbox... one parent who has seven children, had three men DNA tested and not one of them was the father, lost her chronically ill child, had another kid with the same disease a year later, they let her keep him and get the other one back because she told them she'd gotten an apartment and was set up on public assistance. They went out a few weeks later, to find that the apartment they never checked out had holes in the floor, drugs on the table and kids playing with poop. One was detained, the younger was not.

There are problems on both sides. It won't get fixed, unfortunately.

I'm surprised. I know growing up, everyone ignored me and my brother. The cops didn't care. The social workers didn't care. The teachers didn't care. I'm sorry about this poor girl, assuming she's innocent, but I'm glad that at least some people care about mistreated kids.

all I can say is: nixzmary brown

the draconian system failed her. there are countless cases here in NYC where the parents shouldn't have access to the kids, but again and again, the courts try to keep the families together or the case workers don't do their jobs as well as they should.

The situation in the OP was healthcare workers seeing things that raised questions. I'd think there are cops, teachers and social workers that don't do as well. When I was taking about my wife's involvemnt in this type of thing, she works for Head Start. She has told me countless times how the people you mentioned have dropped the ball on this kind of thing.

noodle has pointed out that the system can often times be broke.

1. It takes a pretty good hit to break the leg of a 2-year old (assuming it's the same child you mention later). It's difficult to accept the "dropped him" explanation for such an injury, especially when-

2. If the child is as accident-prone as you say, the doctor treating the leg would likely have seen other bruises in various stages of healing, which can be a warning sign of abuse. Yes, many bruises can be from horseplay and shenanigans, but combine that with a questionable leg fracture story and you've got prime Child Welfare intervention evidence.

If you care about the child's safety, you'll step back and think rationally- which means *not* from the mother's perspective. It's a reasonably questionable scenario.

As I stated earlier, it is understandable that red flags were risen and that investigation of the situation was warranted. What I question is whether or not the way that investigation took place was necessary.

For the record, they found no sign of abuse and returned my nephew on Tuesday. I wrote a blog about it. They could have accomplished everything they did while leaving him in my sister's care with daily, or even hourly check-ups. They did not have to remove him from his mother and home.

It just seems to me that there are better, even if less convenient for the state, ways we could go about investigating possible child abuse.

sure they could put cameras in all their homes.


Daily Express | UK News :: Sin bins for worst families
how about that?

That's a total extreme, but nice sensationalism...

All I know is I would rather have to deal with an invasion of my privacy than have my child completely taken from me over an accident, even if only for a few days.

That's not gullibility, that's blind and willful ignorance. The system is absolutely corrupt. The Children and Youth Services people are paid to find abuse, if they don't find it then they don't get paid. It's that simple. And your precious process is meaningless when the Judges are paid off.

Pennsylvania rocked by 'jailing kids for cash' scandal - CNN.com

Two Judges, one of whom was the President Judge, took over $2.6 million to deny juveniles representation and herd them into youth detention centers.

Your system did this to kids, the very people it is supposed to be looking out for. Parents don't stand a chance in this kind of environment.

that's not indicative of the ENTIRE system, that's just indicative of one state. There is still 49 others.

I only know Pennsylvania, but I'm sure there are just as heinous cases in every state.

And as Xerxys said, "every gun is loaded at all times, every injury is an abuse unless proven otherwise", and every Judge and social worker is corrupt unless proven otherwise.

The picture I was trying to paint wasn't one which had an extreme on the other end of corrupt judges and social workers. Understand that the SYSTEM is there to protect the people. It's not the systems fault that they have corrupt workers it's the people who implement the system that are at fault.

You think I'm blind and "willfully" ignorant because I believe in the system? What else is there? What solution do you propose after making a statement such as "parents can't stand a chance ..."

So the entire world is out to get you then, Master_Shake?

False.

They are not paid on a case by case basis where the person who racks in the highest children to foster care gets cash. They are not state troopers with a quota to meet.

I'd even say it's only 2 courts since its 2 different judges. There's other Family courts.... I'd not even go as far as to say that it's all of PA.

No, the world is not out to get me. But I know better than to think it cares about my well being either.

Case by case, no. But like every government agency, if they don't use their money, they get less the next year. You want to pay your people and give them raises, make damn sure the spending for the year is higher then the budget so you get more next year. best way to do that, attack every case like the parents are sleaze balls. Not saying this is the case with every agency, but some of the policies make me wonder. For instance, if kids get into a fight at school in Arizona, it is mandated that CPS be called and the families investigated. because "Violence at school is a sign of violence at home." Which is the biggest crock of shit I ever heard. I got into a good number of fights, and I was never abused in any fashion. Kids will be kids, and part of that is getting into a fight every now and then. It's just another reason for them to kick the fucking doors in and stick their noses in every ones business. As a new parent, these Nazi fucks scare the shit out of me. While they are needed, the war cry of "for the children" has made it, yet again, that much easier for them to abuse and ignore civil rights.

They were in the same court (Luzerne County). Certainly not indicative of Pennsylvania courts as a whole, let alone the entire country.

--

I'm sorry that this had to be done, PoA and DaniGirl, but it's what the law requires. If a health care provider finds any evidence that abuse might have taken place they are obligated to report it by law, at which point CPS has to get involved. This usually means removing the child, but look at the alternative - leaving children in abusive homes until it can be proven, especially during something so stressful it is likely to escalate the abuse if it is taking place.

I've been down this road before, my mother is a mere 16 years older than I, my father 17 years older - with a mother of her own, working to get custody of me for a while. With a CPS file like she has, it didn't quit even when I was much older. Like when I broke a wrist 3 times in less than a year (I was 14 and clumsy), not a one of which happened within a mile of my parents, but still had to jump through the hoops.

You have to remember it isn't always just the break either, sometimes it's the type of break and the location (on the body) that don't fit the story. And god help you if you gloss over some some seemingly trivial but medically relevant detail, because you didn't know it was medically relevant.

HEY! I'm not corrupt. Whether you take the time to prove it or not.
I'm calling bullshit.
That's a really sad way to look at social workers and judges. And please keep in mind, that very, very, VERY few Department of Children and Families employees working as investigators or first point of contact employees are social workers. Majority of investigators and case managers are bachelors level people who get paid SHIT (and rarely on a case-by-case basis in the South) and there is little to no history of social work education in their background. When you get deeper into services, you'll come across some.
There is a big motherfucking Book of Ethics for social workers and if you find one blowing it out of the water, you'd better turn them in. Because it's illegal.
Some investigators only have a high school diploma.
So screw that social workers and judges are corrupt until proven otherwise. That's a copout.
No one is anything on a blanket basis and that's YOUR problem if you look at them that way.


/soapbox, but that crap pisses me off.

POA & Danigirl - is it possible that the child in question has a calcium deficiency or brittle bone syndrome? I would hope that the doctor would have investigated the child's health before reporting. It's a failure of your physician more than it is of child protective services.

Brittle bone syndrome comes to mind because my mother was an aid for a child that had it - a brilliant girl in a normal elementary school classroom that needed protection on the playground.

GG, it's not a failure of the physician to report an injury that could very well be a sign of abuse so that it would be investigated. Especially when a child cannot speak for themselves to explain how it happened.

I have a big problem with people calling investigations into injuries and/or reported issues "failures." Every reported incident, even something trivial, MUST be investigated. Investigations very rarely, if ever, result in a child being taken out of a home where they are not abused and cared for very well (maybe temporarily, but that's cautionary and fully supported by the laws regarding these procedures). Unfortunately, investigations don't always result in the removal of children from homes where they ARE being abused or improperly cared for.

I get bothered by people bitching about long or unnecessary investigations in a system that is mandated by law and is designed to protect kids from (unfortunately real) abusive situations. These programs are always underfunded and as such cannot always hire investigators that are a) well-trained or b) expedient. Look at the child services in DC.. it's ridiculous. And unfortunately, because of their underfunding and short-handedness, kids are being left in abusive situations thanks to a lack of investigations and "better safe than sorry" precautions. And they are dying.

How I see it: giving up your child for a few days knowing that you will receive them back at the end of the investigation vs. taking zero precautions and having children die or be further abused as a result. It's a system that unfortunately requires a compromise of giving up privacy/rights if a red flag is raised in order to protect the well-being of children as a whole.

Pony - you missed my point.

I wasn't stating that the doctor shouldn't report the injury at all - the doctor should report these things, it's their job - but only after attempting to figure out if there was a medical reason why the leg would have broken from a short drop.

The problem with that: If the parent does not know/have the child's medical history handy when in the emergency room, the injury is pretty severe (a broken bone in a 2 year old is pretty severe) and the reason for the injury is in any way suspicious, it warrants a report whether or not the child has something like brittle bone syndrome.

It's an emergency room doctor, not a family physician who knows the child's history.

And this, kids, is why electronic medical records are a good fucking idea.