pondering about what makes "a nice guy".. is it better if guys stray away from it?

[InTransition951]

when i think of a nice guy, i think of the kind of guy that would do anything for his girl despite how most guys are nowadays (assholes mostly).

but lately, ive been thinking. do girls really like that nice guy? or is it a total lie perpetuated by society today? i mean i dont have any problems but i for some reason have been pondering about why the saying goes, "nice guys finish last" despite that most girls nowadays want something romantic. so ive been thinking, why do girls like that douchebag that will most likely screw you over than that other guy who would be with her cause he loves her?

doing some research on the internet on internet forums and on sites such as answerbag.com and with some real life situations, nice guys are considered: "boring", shy, stalkerish kinda type in terms of putting her on the pedestal, too nice and friendly, and all that other bs. its such a conundrum to me that i cant figure it all out. but why tho? why do women say they want this bs when they dont want it? i hear one side where they actually mean it while the other side says they are lying and just want the douchebag.

relating to this, i look back at myself in high school and i see myself in the same way as i have described in my earlier paragraph. but now that im a lot older and out of high school and in college, i learned from a lot of mistakes from before. and ill admit, ive only been in one real relationship in which it only lasted a year unfortunately. but now, ive kinda stayed away from all that nice guy crap and im just being myself really. i do notice that i am more social, i got a great sense of humor now which makes a lot more people like me, and i grew a whole lot of confidence in myself from that shy guy from before. but still, should i still incorporate some of that nice guy kinda stuff when i talk to people? ive already started this but, should i be more of an asshole to girls?

i do admit it tho, i do have the potential to be that nice guy who wouldnt get into your pants after a night of drinking. at the same time, i can be somewhat of an asshole (but not too am not too experienced at it). if i really wanted to, i could write a song for that special someone or cover something. i could do all that shit that most hopeless romantics dream about. but if women say they like this but they dont want it, then should i just forget all this kinda stuff? is the 'nice guy aspect' useless nowadays? is this a blessing or a curse that can be erased?

idk but ive been pondering about this subject for a bit now. its such a paradox for me

[Grancey]

You should be yourself, whoever you are. Don't try to be a nice guy if it does not come naturally. You may be able to pull off the act in the beginning, but you can't keep it up. You will find much more happiness if you know who you are and are comfortable with who you are. That is the kind of man that girls really want, whether that man is a nice guy or a not so nice guy.

[Hyacinthe]

OH MY GOD!

I get so tired of these posts I really do, "I'm a nice guy but girls want an asshole"

That's not true anymore then me saying that all guys want whores

Some girls want assholes, some girls want nice guys, other girls don't want guys at all

You want to know what women really want? They want someone that will match them in their lifes desires, in their humour and interests, someone who can share their hobbies and dreams and fears and every aspect of their life.

Has nothing to do with how nice you are because niceness can be faked. All those sites out there talking about how horrible nice guys are? Guess what they're all written by complete dicks who pretended to be a nice guy then got pissy when the girl they were trying to con saw through it and went for someone less nice on the surface but more true to themself. Rather then blaming themself and their approach to the situation they decide that girls want assholes and blame the woman in question.

My advice, stop trying to appeal to women as a whole, everyone is different and they will all find different things attractive. Be who you are and find a woman who can love you for that person, not who you have the potential to fake being.

On the other hand if you're just trying to get laid sure be an asshole - walk up to women and just say "how about you and me head to bed" just be prepared to be shot down or even slapped alot.

PS - I'm sorry but the entire niceguy idea frustrates the hell out of me on a personal level - I don't mean to be so harsh, specially not to new member who I actually do want to come back!

[Glory's Sun]

.. I think girls just want a man to be who they are..

if it doesn't click with a certain one, then find another, everyone has different tastes, but it's kind of pointless to try being something you're not.

A thing about nice guys is that the stigma is that guys who are nice and do anything don't have a spine. They just crumble to anything their girl demands and basically lose any pride they have. I think in most cases this is bullshit. Although, I've seen it happen .. my BIL never puts his full opinion on anything, never stands up for himself, just does whatever she says to 'make her happy' and that's just as much bullshit as trying to be something you aren't.

You can be a nice guy and still have pride and your own opinions.. just as you can be an asshole and still do nice things for your girl.. it's just about being what you are and finding someone who is compatible.

[fresnelly]

Imagine this conversation:

Boy: "I'd like to take you out for dinner."

Girl: "Great! Where do you want to go?"

Boy: "I don't know. Whatever you want."

Girl: "I can't decide if I wan't something fancy, or casual."

Boy: "It's all good to me. Whatever you want."

Girl: "That's just it, I don't know."

Boy: "I'm just happy to be with you and like whatever you like so anything you want is fine."

Girl: "Italian, Indian, Sushi..."

Boy: "Any of those."

Girl: " "Oh forget it. If you can't decide, I'm calling Charlene and going out with her and Steve."

...aaaaand /SCENE.

So. Why is Girl getting so frustrated when Boy is being such a nice guy? He just wants to make her happy and be sure that they go somewhere she likes? He's such an easy going, easy-to-please guy that she should be thankful for right? Why would she want to go out with Charlene and her jerk of a boyfriend, Steve?

Because Steve will suggest that swanky new place Girl's been talking about for the past month, and though he may may flirt with the waitresses and say some ignorant things about politics, he'll at least have some ideas about what to do afterwards.

"Nice" is a crude tool when being innattentive.

[soma]

Originally Posted by fresnelly

Imagine this conversation:

Boy: "I'd like to take you out for dinner."

Girl: "Great! Where do you want to go?"

Boy: "I don't know. Whatever you want."

Girl: "I can't decide if I wan't something fancy, or casual."

Boy: "It's all good to me. Whatever you want."

Girl: "That's just it, I don't know."

Boy: "I'm just happy to be with you and like whatever you like so anything you want is fine."

Girl: "Italian, Indian, Sushi..."

Boy: "Any of those."

Girl: " "Oh forget it. If you can't decide, I'm calling Charlene and going out with her and Steve."

...aaaaand /SCENE.

So. Why is Girl getting so frustrated when Boy is being such a nice guy? He just wants to make her happy and be sure that they go somewhere she likes? He's such an easy going, easy-to-please guy that she should be thankful for right? Why would she want to go out with Charlene and her jerk of a boyfriend, Steve?

Because Steve will suggest that swanky new place Girl's been talking about for the past month, and though he may may flirt with the waitresses and say some ignorant things about politics, he'll at least have some ideas about what to do afterwards.

"Nice" is a crude tool when being innattentive.

haha, so true so true. I know in my rookie days I was just like that
I think it's fine being a nice guy. You can be super nice and girls will love you, but if you're dickless, indecisive, and unconfident (in addition to being nice) you don't stand a chance (unless your rich ).

[shakran]

Psychological experiments have indicated that it's actually the unpredictable guy that girls will go for more. Nice sometimes, an asshole sometimes. And, it's not just girls, but all people (and other non-people creatures as well) that tend to keep returning to a situation in which the outcome is uncertain even when given the option of a situation in which the outcome is almost guaranteed to be good. This is why our savings rate is in the toilet, but casinos are profitable.

[snowy]

-----Added 18/2/2009 at 10 : 47 : 25-----

Originally Posted by guccilvr

You can be a nice guy and still have pride and your own opinions.. just as you can be an asshole and still do nice things for your girl.. it's just about being what you are and finding someone who is compatible.

Pretty much.

My guy does a great job of striking the balance between being the consummate nice guy AND having a spine. When I'm spouting BS, he tells me, flat-out. I like that. But I also like that when I tell him I'm not in the mood for harshness and I need him to be the nice guy, he is.

You can be a nice guy without being a doormat, but ultimately, what you need to be is yourself.

[genuinegirly]

Women want what they want. Hyacinthe put it best.

I'm all over my nice guy. Can't get enough of him. That's why I married him.

As for my definition of nice guy: (Maybe there are multiple definitions out there)
Romantic =/= nice guy.
Indecisive =/= nice guy.
Pushover =/= nice guy.
Easy going =/= nice guy.


Nice guy = attentive + caring + looking out for their partner's needs.

[high_jinx]

here's the deal... women want attention. but they also want attention that's worth something, and not freely given to any other woman out there. they want to feel like they've earned the attention or at least deserve it. regardless of what women say they want, they will most certainly walk all over you if you continually point out that you're a door mat for them.

The truth is that a lot of this stuff is hard-wired. and it's true that certain things like backhanded compliments and small shots at girls self-esteem will draw them to you more than holding the door for them open at a restaurant.

i suggest you learn how to be more seductive if that's what you want. i'm not saying to go and learn how to be an asshole and pickup dozens of women and sleep with them. i'm just saying learn how to steer the dynamics of communication and chemistry toward what you really want out of a girl, whether that be a few dates or a real lasting relationship. you're not being manipulative if you genuinely like a girl and you happen to know how to make her comfortable and handle social situations.

finally, don't settle for being a just-friend. be sensitive that energy, and if you find yourself pigeon-holed into that role, get the hell away from that girl because that window is closed and will remain a one-way street.

edit: "The Art of Seduction" is a great book that's more about social psychology than being a pickup artist.... there's about a dozen profiles chronicled in it, and you're bound to identify with one much like your astrological sign. study up on the type that works for you and accentuate those things in your interactions.

[ring]

So, are you telling us that back handed compliments,
and shots at a person's self esteem,
are not manipulative?

[Glory's Sun]

I think it's important to note that there are various types of assholes..just because you're a man whore doesn't make you an asshole..

most people consider me an asshole because I tell it like it is..unfiltered. My wife asks me about something and even if it's not what she wants to hear it's the truth..

I'll take truth and being called an asshole any day over blowing sunshine up a person's ass just to make them feel better..especially when it's not really how I feel about something.

[high_jinx]

Originally Posted by ring

So, are you telling us that back handed compliments,
and shots at a person's self esteem,
are not manipulative?

if delivered in a harmless and teasing way, and from a place where you genuinely care about someone, they are no different than pulling a prank or giving noogies to your younger brother.

[ring]

I guess I am the sort that has grown past that sophomoric way
of communicating,
or never understood it from the beginning.

[girldetective]

Originally Posted by ring:
So, are you telling us that back handed compliments,
and shots at a person's self esteem,
are not manipulative?

Original reply by high jinx: if delivered in a harmless and teasing way, and from a place where you genuinely care about someone, they are no different than pulling a prank or giving noogies to your younger brother.

Well, yes they are. One doesnt shoot self esteem or backhand compliments at someone they care about. Hopefully not even at someone they dont care about.
That isnt teasing. That is hurtful - to any gender.


Please excuse the interruption. I had to do it.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by ring

I guess I am the sort that has grown past that sophomoric way
of communicating,
or never understood it from the beginning.

Me either.

I think that most women men would want to be with over the long term don't care for it either. A good relationship can't start if you start off with mind games.

[high_jinx]

i don't disagree it's immature (hence my noogie reference), but it's also generally effective with all types of people. i'd much prefer being a nice guy, and being shy and gentle, but that doesn't work.

[Plan9]

Maybe it's all about catering to the needs of your potential partner, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Turns out I may suck at the conscious part, so I have to find someone who accepts my unconscious behaviors.

[high_jinx]

ok ok.... definitely apply the appropriate scruples. whatever you are comfortable with. i'd be more indignant that what i'm talking about is effective than choose to be indignant with someone who happens to recognize that.

my general point and advice to the op remain though... knowing how to be seductive is something that you can study, practice, and improve upon. and just like any toolset or skill, you can use that knowledge for whatever purpose you might have, be that finding a rebound girl at a bar for perspective or finding the love of your life.

learn the tools of being something besides a "nice guy" and all of a sudden you become more than that.

[Plan9]

Nice guys. Nice guys. Let's talk to all those nice guys out there:

Superficial titles like "nice guy" and "asshole" are fun to play with but rarely do much of anything. It's all meta, it's all perception.

Imagine a chicken. Now, it's only a chicken because I say it's a chicken, not because it thinks it's a chicken.

Whether I call it a chicken or dinner or a partner for lonely nights (TheJazz?) is irrelevant. It is what it is. We are what we do.

It's the famous which-was-first-chicken-or-egg? debate. Were you a nice guy and caught the label or did you pick up the label and try to live the idea?

...

So, basically: Stop fucking the "nice guy" chicken. You're not a "nice guy." You're just a "guy"... who might be nice depending on your perception at the moment or the perception of someone else you're trying to play holster-the-hogleg with at a scummy bar.

...

Me? I'm a nice sellout. Ask anybody.

[lostgirl]

Originally Posted by Hyacinthe

OH MY GOD!

I get so tired of these posts I really do, "I'm a nice guy but girls want an asshole"

That's not true anymore then me saying that all guys want whores

Some girls want assholes, some girls want nice guys, other girls don't want guys at all

You want to know what women really want? They want someone that will match them in their lifes desires, in their humour and interests, someone who can share their hobbies and dreams and fears and every aspect of their life.

Has nothing to do with how nice you are because niceness can be faked. All those sites out there talking about how horrible nice guys are? Guess what they're all written by complete dicks who pretended to be a nice guy then got pissy when the girl they were trying to con saw through it and went for someone less nice on the surface but more true to themself. Rather then blaming themself and their approach to the situation they decide that girls want assholes and blame the woman in question.

My advice, stop trying to appeal to women as a whole, everyone is different and they will all find different things attractive. Be who you are and find a woman who can love you for that person, not who you have the potential to fake being.

On the other hand if you're just trying to get laid sure be an asshole - walk up to women and just say "how about you and me head to bed" just be prepared to be shot down or even slapped alot.

PS - I'm sorry but the entire niceguy idea frustrates the hell out of me on a personal level - I don't mean to be so harsh, specially not to new member who I actually do want to come back!

Thank you Hyacinthe. My thoughts exactly.

[InTransition951]

haha dang. i didnt think id get so many replies after two days. i guess im just too busy to go on forums nowadays .

but i get what your all saying. im sorry that i didnt know that these kinda topics are said over and over again. i rarely go to forums and i just like this forum because i like the answers im getting with what im thinking a lot about atm .

anyways, i guess when it all comes down to it, you just be yourself rather than being all shy and nice and stuff (which i already gotten over) and mix it up a bit im guessing too ?

thanks for all the input tho. i appreciate it

[Glory's Sun]

Originally Posted by InTransition951

haha dang. i didnt think id get so many replies after two days. i guess im just too busy to go on forums nowadays .

but i get what your all saying. im sorry that i didnt know that these kinda topics are said over and over again. i rarely go to forums and i just like this forum because i like the answers im getting with what im thinking a lot about atm .

anyways, i guess when it all comes down to it, you just be yourself rather than being all shy and nice and stuff (which i already gotten over) and mix it up a bit im guessing too ?

thanks for all the input tho. i appreciate it

you're not being yourself if you have to consciously think about mixing it up

[Hyacinthe]

im sorry that i didnt know that these kinda topics are said over and over again.

Don't be - it's a RL issue that starts my hissy fit in the 'nice guy' issue you were just unlucky enough to cop some of the vitriol I want to take out on the guy in question.

Don't be shy I agree with that. What you need to do is realise that you are deep down a person that is worth knowing. That you have something to give to people who prove themselves worthy of your friendship. Once you realise that it's alot easier to be yourself.

Don't concerntrate on being 'nice' concerntrate on what you want, what will make you happiest. Sure you might loose a few girls when you voice your opinion and they can't get over the fact that it's different to theirs but the ones that stick around will either be mature enough to see you as a sepesrate individual with the right to feel and think the way you do or will agree with you leading to a longer happier relationship for the both of you.

[thespian86]

Lets just say it friends: "Nice Guys" are assholes too. Just different roads to the same spot.

"Nice Guy" is as much a bullshit persona and facade as "Bad Boy" or "Sardonic Jew" or "Preppy Asshole". No, I'm not going on some 20 year old tirade about labels that will not hit the mark. I mean this idea of a projected personal identity. Restricting yourself personally/sexually/emotionally and adding superfluous, regimented lifestyle choices that turn you into something, not someone. Your "stock character". The person who you act as every day. Not the person you are so much as the person you have decided will get you further, with the least amount of collateral damage and the easiest path. Like you've adapted over time because of given circumstances that were completely relative and opinion based but to you (the collective "you") it is just "truth". I used to be the "Nice Guy" as well as the "Sardonic Jew" and I was dating a "Shiksa Goddess" and going to a "Forward Thinking Liberal Arts School".

The thing is people are people. They like and dislike things. If you like bending over backwards for someone that doesn't make you a "nice guy". That makes you a guy. If you refuse to spurn your own ideologies or principles for the sake of someone else that doesn't make you a "selfish asshole" or a "commitmaphobe". You're just a guy. Or a girl.

So yes. Stray away from it. Just be.

Otherwise: The Nice Guy is someone who allows others easy and unlimited access to all of their resources, even if its in spite of himself. A boy (note: not a man) who uses guilt, self-victimization, and "neurosis" as a form of manipulation to control those around him. He is delusional and often puppy like. He is sad.

[MSD]

Why do Nice Guys(TM) never get the girl? Because they're Nice Guys(TM) (hereafter abbreviated "NG") and not just nice guys. I consider being a NG a personality disorder. The NG has it in his mind that nice guys finish last, and sees himself as a sort of tragic hero. He's not just what women want, he's what they need, he's better than all those other guys out there, he'll treat them like they deserve to be treated. This breaks down into our first two major problems with the NG.

First, women want a man, not a doormat. They want to be treated as equals, not put on a pedestal and worshipped. If he gets into a relationship with this mindset, the NG will range from clingy and creepy to outright codependent. As much as he professes to understand women and their needs and wants, he will become insecure and jealous when they don't return his unconditional love and dedication. The other extreme is that he will become disillusioned and jaded with a relationship that isn't the fairy tale he envisioned, and grow resentful and misogynistic and extol the virtue and truth of Ladder Theory.

Second, the NG thinks that being nice is enough, that women will be attracted to him because of his personality, but he always ends up in the "friend zone." He ends up there for one or both of two reasons: one is that he's deluded himself into thinking that being nice is all that matters and fails to develop any other redeeming qualities; the other is that he hasn't developed the emotional intelligence to realize that he needs to be proactive in seeking non-platonic relationships.

This leads him into a downward spiral of being the guy whose female friends see him as a big brother who they can go to for help with their problems. They genuinely like him as a friend and assume that since he hasn't shown any outward signs of interest that he feels the same way toward them. Meanwhile, our NG sits by, assuming that his friends know how he feels waiting for the day when they realize that they don't want the boyfriends they complain to him about, they want him. Some of these friends think he's a genuinely a good guy who wants to be there for them when they need someone to vent to, someone to help them out, a shoulder to cry one. A few may recognize him for the doormat that he is and take full advantage of it; sure, it's manipulative, but he's willing to be manipulated.

I guess it is kind of tragic in a way, because it's all his fault and he can't understand why.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21

Lets just say it friends: "Nice Guys" are assholes too. Just different roads to the same spot.

"Nice Guy" is as much a bullshit persona and facade as "Bad Boy" or "Sardonic Jew" or "Preppy Asshole". No, I'm not going on some 20 year old tirade about labels that will not hit the mark. I mean this idea of a projected personal identity. Restricting yourself personally/sexually/emotionally and adding superfluous, regimented lifestyle choices that turn you into something, not someone. Your "stock character". The person who you act as every day. Not the person you are so much as the person you have decided will get you further, with the least amount of collateral damage and the easiest path. Like you've adapted over time because of given circumstances that were completely relative and opinion based but to you (the collective "you") it is just "truth". I used to be the "Nice Guy" as well as the "Sardonic Jew" and I was dating a "Shiksa Goddess" and going to a "Forward Thinking Liberal Arts School".

Gee...has someone read some Erving Goffman?

[Iliftrocks]

We should all just be the same. Act the same. Like the same stuff. Be attracted to the same people..... As long as you're all attracted to me.

What do women want? Really? Depends on the woman. How she was raised, and her experiences. Geez, some of them even like me. A great majority don't, but come to think of it, I don't like a great majority of women either. Fortunately for me, I have decided not to label them bitches or ass-holes for not liking me. They just have good taste, errr, different opinions..... yeah

A goodly amount of people don't really know what they want, until they find it. I may very well be one of them.

Be yourself, eventually someone will fall for it.

[Esoteric]

Be yourself. I can't say it's worked well for me because I'm extremely introverted but I can't see myself ever playing "The Game" to get a girl. I think it's tiresome, retarded, and more about mindgames than anything.

[high_jinx]

of course you want to be yourself. but beyond that, just realize that there's a certain percentage of both nice guys and assholes that seal the deal at the end of the night. the "just-friend" nice guys and the boorish assholes are both left on the outside looking in. so no matter who you are, if you want to be a version that is successful with women, then become that through study, practice, and intuition.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by snowy

Gee...has someone read some Erving Goffman?

I've done a lot of personal work involving masking and interpreting. Goffman hasn't come up in name, and in fact I was working with another acting/life coach named Lawrence Follows (Megan Follows' brother, for all those Anne fans out there) in this school of thought before I had heard of Goffman, but it's a philosophy I subscribe to. I go to a Method school so internal work is the nature of the beast and if I can connect with anything, it's finding ways of making myself feel like I'm part of social class or structure my life in someway using common labels. It's just a terrible way of living life; trying to find peace and stability in something that is completely fabricated.