Do we stand a chance?
 

I'm going to try and ride some of the momentum of the "Why did your other marriages go bad" thread and hope that some of the posters there will read this and give me their advice...

I'm in a relationship of nearly 4.5 years and have been noticing some things that make me wonder if these are symptoms of bigger problems down the road...

Good things about the relationship:
- We're great friends
- We're of similar intelligence
- Our families are very fond of the other partner respectively, and get along with each other
- Similar senses of humour
- We live together and haven't killed each other yet
- Finances are handled equally and fairly based on our relative earnings
- (mostly) Similar interests

Problems:

- She is less adventurous than me, due to her insecurities
- We have difficulty communicating some things (I can never give constructive criticism - she immediately gets defensive and starts arguing)
- She criticises me for little things - like when I don't pick the parking spot that she would have picked.
- I think she has some abandonment issues - if I'm asleep and she can't, she'll wake me and keep me awake until she is able to sleep...
- I am uninterested in marriage at this young age (24) - she claims the same but at the same time hints at it frequently
- She can be quite clingy and jealous (She makes me feel guilty if I wish to go out with my friends for an evening without her, and thinks that every conversation I have with an a female acquaintance is flirtation)
- We have different methods of approaching relationships with our friends (a minor comment that I would laugh off will be taken to heart by her, and she will argue and fight until the other party admits she is right and they were wrong)
- Sex is infrequent and uninteresting - I believe there's a communication gap which is causing other issues (above) to manifest subconsciously
- We probably have different goals for our lives right now (I would like to work and travel in foreign countries, whereas she wants to settle down and start a family)

Wow, there are more differences here than I realised... I suppose another thing that I'm unsure of is that, in the face of these problems, do I WANT to make it work?

Thanks. Again, I hoped that I could get the opinions of those who have gone down this road before and who can spot the warning signs.

Peace.
Walk

in answer to the title and the q in the text: yes and yes. sit down and put your talking face on.

How many serious relationships was she in before you? Given your age, I only assume she has not had long term relationships before, and given the situation, I don't think she has had many serious (even not serious) relationships before. This could explain the clingy behavior and the things you perceive as abandonment issues. Working this the other way, you might be flirting more than you think, or don't give her the attention she deserves.

Just given this, I would think she has a controlling attitude. Your observations make her seem to be that she must always be right, even when it does not matter. Working this the other way, there may very well be something that you don't know about her past that makes her this way.

My solution is you must talk to her. Start off with the communication issues you have. Whatever things she isn't saying, try and have her talk to them with you. After 4.5 years, she ought to feel free to talk to you about anything. Tell her that when you are giving advice, it isn't that she is doing something wrong, that there is a different way. If she is unwilling to accept that there is some lack of communication between you two... I would offer an ultimatum.

It is rough. There are times to be tactful and times to be jaded. Being blunt often gets the truth in the air the fastest. Being tactful often just sugarcoats the bullshit.

The communication issues can be dealt with if you both acknowledge the issues you have communicating and resolve to solve them together. It's the first thing to tackle; knowing how to effectively address the issues you have will help you deal with everything else. I don't see anything here that can't be solved with couples therapy, to be honest, and couples therapy would help you learn how to talk to one another effectively.

based on what you wrote....

short answer:
no.

I could make it a bit fluffier and say you have some chance here or there or where you can make a change etc. but I'm going to go with if she won't change those problems can you accept her as is? If it's yes, then you stand a chance. If the answer is no, then you are just wasting your time.

Sounds like you are very different people on many levels - you may well love one another, but that doesn't mean you would make good partners for the next 50 years. If you cannot overcome some of these issues (which are as much your issues as hers) then long term you may not be best suited for one another.

Agreed. :thumbsup: Are you both willing to sign up for therapy? If you're quite serious about trying to keep the relationship alive (and eventually thriving, which should be the goal of all relationships, I would think), I really recommend that you actively seek out counseling. Many of us on this board have been there, done that... no harm in trying.

Go for a day at the beach or some other outdoor activity with her and some of your friends and her friends. Often people, even deep into a relationship, are more comfortable with more friends around.
What kinds of criticisms are you wanting to make and how do you attempt them?
I always park really far from the store so I have to walk and get exercise. It's really neither here nor there.
Does she wake you frequently, or is it every now and again? I will occasionally (less than once a month) take benadryl to get some sleep.
Oh, time for couples therapy.
Definitely time for couples therapy.
Go sign up for therapy right now. I can even send you recommendations.

Snowy hit the nail on the head. It may be time to go speak to someone. If you're both honest and open, it's a very real possibility that you can work hard and earn many, many happy years together.

Run, don't walk to therapy. Get it?

Maybe I'm jaded, but this sounds like every romantic relationship that ever happened between a man and a woman aged 20-25. Varying degrees of all of the above, but same story over and over. Perhaps it changes with age and experience?

Every single person I know in a relationship longer than 3 years in this age bracket could describe their situation identically.

Keep looking. Somewhere out there is a totally healthy relationship.

I'm about to turn 24 and have been in a serious relationship with my girlfriend for 4 years, having lived with her for 3.

If its any consolation, I'm pretty much in the same situation as you 7 of 9 con's fit our relationship perfectly, nearly all the pro's as well.

Since i'm in the same boat I don't have any advice, I'll be looking for advice from this thread just the same.

Hmm, but are the descriptions you're getting only coming from the male side of the relationships? Just curious...

Edit: As a female, when I was 24 I probably would have fit quite a few of the OP's descriptions of his girlfriend. However, after 1-2 failed relationships by that point, I wasn't about to fuck up my chances in the next one... so I signed up for individual therapy, and continued doing that for several years (especially while ktspktsp and I were long distance). For me, it made a huge difference in quality of relationship... though really, the biggest difference is in how I relate to myself, and then that gets reflected in my other relationships, you might say. Just something to consider. Not saying that the girl has all the issues, because I agree that they're your issues as well (as someone else said)... but if you're both willing to hit up therapy, things could really improve. Or do you want to live this way forever? (A lot of people do, and they remain in a state of constant denial/misery.)

Yea..

From that, I shall conclude that it is a symptom of the quarter-life crisis, particularly on the male side of things (though females respond to it, too... just in different ways): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-life_crisis

I'd say that most of the time 20somethings annoy me more than anything because of this...

just like HS annoys Collgiates....

hmmmm... trend?

Some of the items on the "problems" list can be classified as emotional abuse. I'm saying this as someone who's been there (and has a far longer and brutal list, and who didn't have anywhere near as good a "good" list).

If you can't find help for the both of you, you should find it for yourself. Don't waste your time away, for that is my own biggest regret. Either way, it sounds like she needs help at least. If you have enough to salvage, you can very well work this through together, but you've got to get some shit out in the open. Don't hide things away, and don't let her do the same--it will destroy the relationship.

I'm a pretty hopeful person most of the time, though it isn't apparent. I'd go with what Cyn said in his first post.

Too different, too young, too convoluted. No.

Thanks for all the replies... Quite a mixed bag....

I guess that therapy would be the smart option at this point... I wonder how she will react when I suggest it.

BTW this is the greatest online community ever - I've learnt so much from the accumulated posts here. Hopefully I'll have some pearls of wisdom to contribute in the future!

Walk

From your description I'd say that your girlfriend has some issues. It's hard to say what, being that I don't know her.

The thing that strikes me the most about your OP, though, is how you use the word 'we' to describe the good things and the word 'she' to describe all but one of the problems. Do you think you could be doing things that exacerbate or even cause some of these problems? Or is it that, in a way, you have already given up?

If she is unwilling to go to therapy, unwilling to change, and unwilling to accept the tools that will help her do so, then you truly have your answer as to whether you stand a chance or not.

this sounds eerily similar to my best friend's last relationship. his girlfriend was moody, needy, clingy at times, standoff-ish at others. eventually, she cheated on him with a married man. not saying that yours will end this way, of course, but women who have a bunch of emotional needs/issues may look for what they think they're missing with someone else if they don't think they're getting it from you

Once again, I'm chiming in with Snowy here. To me, a refusal to go to therapy constitutes a dealbreaker, plain and simple. It is a position of stubbornness, arrogance, and ignorance that tells me all I need to know about a person's character. You don't want to be married to someone like that.

Exactly. You want to know that you have a partner beside you who is willing to do anything to solve a problem, even if it means setting aside their own ego to do so. That's how healthy long-term relationships work.

Dealbreaker for you, perhaps. Not everyone is so gung-ho about telling an "expert" their problems. Every professional psychologist I've ever spoken to was not only a simpleton but a know-it-all simpleton at that. Think Good Will Hunting.

"Let's talk it out" is not the solution for everyone, and if Cyn just posted a thread about how 'talking about your problems' is not the most effective route for everyone, and the ones who didn't actually suffered less mental and physical problems than those who did.

I'm not saying therapists don't work for some (or even most), but keep in mind that it's not always the best solution nor does refusal to go to therapy constitute stubbornness, arrogance or ignorance.

Yup. First two words in that sentence of mine are key: Good thing we never dated, eh?... looks like it would have been a dealbreaker between us. :)

That said, I went to 4-5 therapists before I found one who could actually help me. Doesn't mean I quit trying. I just kept looking. It mattered that much to me, to be able to have a healthy relationship instead of a series of fucked-up ones. Once again, this is my opinion. I reserve the right to judge someone's character based on those standards... we all make our own judgments, for whatever reasons. Sounds like you actually gave therapy some kind of try, and I respect that. But someone flat-out refusing to go to therapy? No. Not my deal.

I left something out... it might not be stubbornness, arrogance, or ignorance... but it might be fear that's keeping them from trying something potentially helpful and that definitely won't kill them, even if it might not work for them. And if it is indeed fear, then I can work with that... to get them to a place where they are no longer afraid of talking to someone about their issues. But if it's any of the other reasons, then those are definitely dealbreakers.

Possibly... The thought has crossed my mind, in the past.

I seem to vacillate between 2 mindsets: the first one being that I would be able to keep going if the relationship ended, possibly becoming even more of a person now that I am by myself - the other mindset being that I shouldn't be so critical, and that I won't ever find someone this compatible with me again.

I am going to have to be the bastard and say not to waste your time with couples counseling.

First, I hate shrinks after having seen three in my elementary years and teens, and the last two were practically useless. Second, you both are very young. Again, my opinion is that one should have a life before settling into a relationship. If she is less adventurous than you, then there is a problem and you do not have to stand for it. Personally, if you can't work it out "in house" or discussing this with her family (with her knowledge you are doing so), then it might as well be over.


Very true, but if she isn't willing to talk about what is on her mind, and not willing to talk to a professional, then what is left of the relationship?

Leave it to abaya to suggest therapy/counseling...


It's up to you whether it works out or not. If you're willing to change your perception on things that bother you (pretty friggin' hard to do), then you got a chance. If not, decide for yourself how much longer you're willing to put up with it.

Hey, somebody's gotta do it.

What have you all got against counseling, anyway? :orly: (Funny, the naysayers are all male, as well...)

Seriously.

We're not all born with perfect interpersonal skills. It's learned. Therapy isn't just about talk therapy--dissecting one's problems and the minutiae of life--but also about arming one's self with the tools to communicate effectively and non-offensively (or defensively) with a partner or others and address other issues in a person's life. Personally I favor cognitive-behavioral therapy over talk therapy. There are a wide variety of therapeutic approaches, and not all of them involve a lot of talking.

But not all males are naysayers. :)

I'm with you.

First reason I made the comment is because you suggest therapy and/or counseling in just about every "I got problems" thread. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but it seems like a one stop solution.

Second reason is that I would have to be at the very end of the rope, holding on by a nail of a pinky to even consider going to therapy. It's the whole "spilling your problems to a complete stranger and pay them money to listen to you" thing that irks me.

Well, come to think of it, my last counselor (who was by far the most educated and experienced--and the only male psychologist I had, actually) was the best one, and I do think it's because he drew on CBT instead of just talk. CBT had a profound impact on the way I view and cope with anxiety and depression; highly recommended method. Glad to hear that! :thumbsup: But I apologize if I implied that all males are naysayers... just noticed that many of those chiming into the thread seemed to be going that route. I do know plenty of males in real life who are proponents of counseling (it was a male friend who eventually convinced me to give up my arrogance and go to counseling in the first place), which is always encouraging to me. And I know there are others on TFP. Just wondering how to bring them out of the woodwork... :)

Well, it's not a one-stop solution, because counseling is 100% useless if you're not committed and open to it as a tool. Personal responsibility for one's emotional growth is key. However, I do think it should be a first (or last) stop solution, at the very least. It should BE on people's list of solutions, and since so often it isn't... it's the first one I usually recommend, unless the person has already tried it. Well, that speaks more about you than the practice of counseling itself. Personally, I've never paid a dime for years of counseling, either because it was covered by my employer (Employer Assistance Program or EAP, which even most small companies/unions, let alone corporations, have in the US) or by my university's student health center insurance. So to me, it's never been a loss.

Personally, I often prefer complete, educated strangers listening to my problems and giving me CBT feedback, than friends who tend to be biased and tell me what I want to hear, or give me pity/sympathy/bullshit to get me to shut up about it already.

Hey Abs, I'm with you. I went today. I also might have ended my relationship with my current girlfriend today as well, but that is TBD. Mostly over what is now seemly stupid shit like that found above. I'm having kind of a shitty day.

/threadjack

UPDATE: crisis adverted.