How will you defend your person, property, and family, if needed?
 

(1) How will you defend your person, property, and family, if needed?

(2) How should other people defend their person, property and family, if needed?

I've broken this into two questions for the simple reason that announcing how YOU will defend these things often comes off as a suggestion for all; clarify, if at all possible, whether you think your solution is ideal for everyone.

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I live in a very safe city. We have one of the lowest crime rates in the state, and probably one of the lowest in the nation. And yet I'm able to find dozens and dozens of violent encounters documented in our local Police Blotter with only a cursory glance. Here's a few that stuck out:

It's pretty clear that the question I should be asking is not "Will I ever be the target of a violent predator" but "When will it happen?" In my specific case, "Will I ever be the target of a violent predator" is already Yes; I had a knife pulled out and tapped meaningfully against my sternum by an ..erm... young black gentleman because I bumped into his "sister" at an indoor roller rink.

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FIRST QUESTION: I defend myself, my property and my family in two ways;

(1) I utilize my knowledge of crime:

* I know that your chance of being the victim of a violent crime (battery, assault, (armed) robbery, carjacking, etc.) increases inversely to the economic status of an area. Knowing this, I avoid "low income" areas when at all possible, and I advise my loved ones to do the same.

* I know that the majority of violent property and person related crimes occur between dusk and dawn, so I am more vigilant in these hours with regards to my personal safety and the safety of the people I am with.

* I have a basic rule for defending myself that distance = time. When I feel like I am being watched or followed, I cross the street or quicken my pace. The more distance there is between me and a potential perpetrator, the more time I have to think and react. Similarly, the more distance I create between myself and a would-be assailant, the more likely any harm they inflict is non-fatal.

* I understand that predation, whether it is sexual assault or simple battery and theft, occurs against those who an present themselves as victims. Just like a lion watches a herd of zebras to find the one who is the slowest, who looks least attached to the group, who looks like they wouldn't put up much of a challenge, a predator looks to people who exhibit these characteristics. When in places where I'm likely to be victimized, I walk tall and quickly, and I make direct eye contact with people who scare me. It might not be enough, but it's enough to subconsciously let someone know that I won't be harmed as easily as someone who isn't aware of them.

* I know that alcohol and drugs are the number one 'causative factor' in violent confrontations, so I only consume them when in reasonably safe environments. I explicitly avoid highly populated bars and clubs for this reason.

(2) I own and maintain a firearm, which I store for home defense and carry for legal self-defense when the conditions above are unavoidable.

This one is certainly more controversial, but I think it's just as important as my steps above. There are MANY, MANY situations where I don't have the time to flee, where I don't have time to talk down a violent criminal. There are times when my life (or my personal safety - see "beaten with a drain pipe" above) is immediately threatened. In those cases, I have no problem lawfully and justifiably stopping the threat.

I have little experience with martial self-defense, and I believe that "weaker" techniques (grappling, throws, disarmament) and "weaker" devices (stun-guns, mace, ASP) are ineffectual in these situations. If someone has placed me in a situation where I cannot flee, de-escalate or call the police, it is very likely that they pose a clear and immediate danger to my life.

In the case of a home invasion robbery, this is almost always the case. The average police response time, as studied by the FBI, for my city? 14 minutes. In 14 minutes, as noted above, a criminal can invade, physically harm, steal and flee before they even arrive. I'm NOT WILLING to allow someone to violate me in such a way because of ethical concerns about the sanctity of their life.

This question ("how will I defend myself") is, by itself, the reason that I am a gun-owning, gun-lobby supporting liberal. Most others liberals are strongly anti-gun, and I stick out like a sore thumb. I'm comfortable sticking out, however, because personal defense is extremely important to me. As an atheist, I also acknowledge that this is the only life I get, and I'm not comfortable taking the risk that someone can end my life for me because I failed to prepare for the possibility that they would try.

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SECOND QUESTION:

I think that (1) can be used by everyone. The more you know about crime, the more likely you are to avoid being a victim. That said, the odds are NOT in your favor - the majority of criminals are repeat offenders, and they are released from prison over and over again with ever-increasing rates of recidivism.

I can understand having an ethical concern with killing someone, but I do not have such qualms. For those of you who have an ethical system which makes it wrong to kill someone in self defense, I hope your ethical system also allows you to forgive someone for anything they do to you, assuming you are left alive.

I do not think that everyone can adopt #2; some people truly do have an ethical belief that no one should be killed. Some people are not responsible enough to own and safely operate a handgun, and some people do not have the physical dexterity, strength, or concentration to use one effectively. I honestly wish that MORE people were able to adopt 2, but I do accept that it is not the answer for everyone.

So - what about you? How do you defend yourself, your property and your family?

Me:
Home: Don't need to worry about it. Besides living in the safest large city in the US (take that, NYC), I also have double pane windows and security doors. The danger to my home is virtually non-existent. Short of someone taking a shotgun to my windows or digging through the wood paneling, they're not getting in.

The "street": Again, safest large city in the US. Even if I was approached by someone with a weapon, how hard is it to slowly take one's wallet out and hand it to someone? "Oh no! They have like $60 cash and a debit card that's going to be cancelled in like 5 minutes!" I protect myself and those I'm with by not flying off the handle and doing something stupid like fighting back.

The only real place I'm in danger is driving. I have a car that's quick on it's feet and has several airbags, as well as having a decent insurance policy.

You:
Home: Not everyone can afford double pane windows and security doors, I know, but for the price of a reasonable gun, you can usually get one or two decently strong doors. For the price of a few guns, classes, and ammo, I can imagine that it may be able to pay for like 5-8 windows. I suppose it's a matter of perspective and priorities. Of course, no one has ever had their child die because they left their double pane windows out or because their door was stronger. Let's not forget that. Defensive security is safer.

The "street": Not everyone lives in a safe city. I get that. Fortunately, there are a lot of decent options. Pepper spray can disable most people (if you're not sure, try it), as can a taser (which now can go farther than 15 feet). There are other, not often mentioned alternatives to guns like air guns, beanbag guns, etc.

Well, I don't really defend my "property." It is not reasonable (nor legal) to kill or seriously injure another person over property. If someone wants my stuff they can have it.

As for myself and my family. I don't put us into situations that require defense.

If I find myself inadvertently in the position where I have to defend myself I will think about it at that point. Most likely I will use bear mace and a stun baton (have yet to purchase the stun baton though).

I simply refuse to live in fear. I refuse to waste much more time than I have already spent on this particular post even thinking about it.

@WillRavel:
It doesn't matter what you do, they can still just kill you. The international program I am in received some very disturbing news last week. One of the foreign students in America was shot. After returning home from a colleague's birthday party and approaching his house door, he was shot through through the door by a suspect. Apparently his residence was being burglarized, and the suspect panicked. The student is alive today only because the bullet was slowed through the door and by luck was literally caught in his zipper.

I am going to give this some research before giving an opinion/answer.

They'd need to be in the house in order to shoot me from inside my residence. Considering that I drive a rice rocket, live in an older home, don't show my wealth, and considering that they'd need to get through a security door exposed either to the street or my neighbors... yeah it's really unlikely. It's possible, sure, but it's also possible that I'll suffer a stroke on the street and die instantly. Each is quite unlikely and as such preparing for them makes little sense.

Do you realize how arrogant this sounds? The only reason you've not a victim of violent crime or personal theft (yet) is that "you don't put yourself in situations that require defense" ? Is someone who has no choice but to live in a dangerous area bringing the violence on themselves? Is someone who prepares for the rational eventuality that they'll be the victim of violent crime "living in fear"?

With 3,672,940 VIOLENT crimes committed against US citizens in 2006, there is more to it than simply not putting yourself in situations that "require defense." It's a statistical factor of your socioeconomic status, your neighborhood and luck, not willful decisions on your part. Victims don't choose to be victims. You're not "living in fear", but you're certainly "willfully ignorant."

1. I'm a young girl living in a college town in a rather upscale gated town home community with various other students like myself. Everyday my roommates and I receive emails (from the school, they notify everyone whenever something of this nature is reported) about females that are assaulted, raped, and kidnapped in the general area. Our specific area is safe however we do have some lower income housing right outside the gates that line the path to the Texas A&M Bus stop. It's a short walk, but still a walk nonetheless. When I took the bus to school to work I always had my pocket knife in hand ready to open up at a seconds notice. James gave me this knife for Christmas to replace the one that stolen out of my checked bag with Continental, yes I am bitter about it. I make it a point to not listen to my IPod while I'm walking to the stop or jogging in the area. My roommate Caroline and I have discussed these crimes in our area and what we need to be careful for to avoid becoming victimized. My dad has sent me several emails telling me things these criminals tend to look for. Girls with pony tails are more common than short haired girls, they need something to pull onto. When jogging I carry my knife in one hand, my hand conceals it almost completely. I look around often to see who's around me, is anyone following me or watching me. I keep a good distance from the road and run opposite toward traffic so a person cannot come up behind me and grab me from a vehicle. When it comes to my stuff the only qualm I have is with them taking my computer. I have a Louisville slugger next to my bed. I'm also on the ground floor while my three roommates are upstairs, I wonder if that would affect my chances of being messed with first or not. I think the owner of the town home should install some deadbolts for the interior on both the front and back doors as well as install a security system, but thats just me. When I turn 21 I intend to get my CHL for more safety. I'm a Republican Georgia girl and have no problems shooting an intruder trying to harm me and mine. My dad and granddaddy were the same way. Dad keeps an 12 gauge in their bedroom and several random guns stashed in the bookshelves. My mom is sufficient in a handgun as well and has one in her nightstand. I like to view myself as educated on my own personal safety especially for being a female. These girls that go jogging at 11:00 at night by themselves down naked streets listening to their Ipods are just asking to be victimized. Being educated about your specific area is what I think makes a huge difference in possible crimes taking place against oneself.

2. Other people, I realize we'll all have different opinions on such a subject but I would hope people would educate themselves the way I have and do as much to avoid getting into possible situations. I think using a gun to protect yourself is fine if the situation calls for it, thats the typical Republican answer anyhow. If someone disrupts your life and threatens it, I say do your damnedest to destroy them for your own self preservation. That was my upbringing and thats what James believes in as well so we both sit well on those ideas for the way we live. The only difference is, he has his gun and CHL, I'm not old enough for mine yet. Another 11 months to go. The police are there for help but they're often time not fast enough to do much good in a burglary situation as my parents have found out. My dads not afraid to defend his family with a gun and I don't think anyone else should be either if they love them and want to eliminate a threat. I guess a sentence I don't want to have to say to my kids would be "Well daddy doesn't believe in guns so the bad guy shot him in his own home because he had no self defense."

My $0.02

This is what I carry when I'm out and about.
I know how to shoot although a 45 is a bit much for me.

I dont know where you get the 3+ million figure. The last I saw was half that...which is still a troubling number.....but hardly a "rational eventuality" in a nation of 300 million.

The rate for violent crimes nationwide is less than 500 per 100,000 population...thats less than .5%

Be aware, know your surroundings, carry if you want...but dont live in fear that it will happen to you, because the odds are ....it wont.

Do you know that you sound like an advertisement for the NRA?

I know my comments mean little in an intellectual debate such as this, but common sense should count for something. Your own response to the first question addressed safety issues. Why would you say it's arrogant to keep yourself out of dangerous situations?

I currently live in a lower-income area. Sure, there's crime around. But no one has a reason to come after me. The only possible scenarios would be either rape or a drive-by. Rape? Ha. I walk with confidence. The car key between my fingers, ready to jab out an eye, the knee ready. I've taken self-defense classes and know I can take care of myself. As for the drive-by shooting, how much better is your defense?

Oh and here's a third -- a postal person in restaurant, supermarket, airport or whatever. Most likely he's got an automatic weapon, so unless I decide to become a vigilante, I wouldn't have enough firepower even if I chose to carry a gun. Besides, don't you think that if he saw me pull an AK-47, he'd shoot me down without a thought?

Home invasion, you ask? When I move to my pretty house, maybe. But I'll have an alarm system and keep pretty knives in some drawers and a bat here and there. I'm not going to live in fear all my life, just in case someone wants to try to hurt me. And I surely don't want to raise my kids to live in fear.

I had a gun for a short time many years ago when my life had been threatened, but I found it to be a false sense of security. I had small children in my home at the time so my gun was locked in a case, high in a closet. I would never have had time to react, get the key, go to the closet, open the case and aim the gun if he had invaded my home while I was sleeping. I was more afraid that my kids would find it then I was of being killed.

You have the right to protect yourself and your family. Go for it. But don't call it arrogant when someone says they take all reasonable precautions. Your definition of reasonable is different than mine.

I took it from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2006.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cv06.htm

Violent 3,672,940
Personal theft 138,520
Property 12,133,460

If there were a way to conduct post-mortem interviews of people who were sexually assaulted and killed, or simply murdered, I bet most of them "didn't think it would happen to them."

US Population: 301,139,947
Violent Crimes: 3,672,940

Roughly speaking (I know math of this sort is a bit hazardous on generalized surveys), but 1 in 82 people were the victim of a violent crime in 2006. That's high, if you ask me.

I think it's a safe bet, considering the majority of violent crime survivors also didn't think it would happen to them.

EDIT: Just saw your post jewels.

If you re-read your post, you'll see that I'm not indicating his desire to keep himself out of dangerous situations is arrogant, but his belief that keeping himself of dangerous situations is THE ONE AND ONLY reason he hasn't been victimized. As a matter of fact, I think the things that you and GG above have mentioned are fantastic, and fall right in line with my #1 above; vigilance.

By the way, GG, I think it's very awesome that you've taken the time to think about these things. Just being aware of things that make you vulnerable is half the battle.

I think you are misreading the data.

The raw data is from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports:

Overview

* An estimated 1,417,745 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2006.
* There were an estimated 473.5 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offe...ime/index.html

or, by year:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_01.html

No, it's not. Check out http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cv06.pdf

I live in an incredibly safe town, despite the disappearance and murder of Brooke Wilberger that took place here a few years back. Our crime report in the paper is a long list of MIPs and DUIs with a couple of thefts thrown in.

I protect myself from crime by locking my windows and doors. We have security lights as well. When I walk about town, I am always aware of my surroundings. That's about all one needs to do around these parts--common sense goes a long way.

JinnKai....DOJ gets its figures from survey sampling of census interviews.

THe FBI Uniform Crime Reports are the official crime stat reports filed by state and local police with the FBI.

I know the FBI reports arent totally inclusive and rely on estimates where data is not submitted, but the DoJ relies too heavily on personal perceptions of being a "victim". Both are flawed.

But even under your numbers....its still no more than 1% of the population (3 mil out of 300 mil).....hardly a "rational eventuality" IMO.

As I said, take precautions, know your surroundings, carry if you want (I wont)...but dont live in fear that it will happen to you..because odd are, it wont.

For me: deadbolts on doors, low crime-rate area, several heavy sticks/flashlights stashed around the house, several knives and other puncturing articles. i tend to keep on my toes in public areas, and try to stay alert to other peoples movements. i will probably have several guns in the house - although currently i'm clean. i grew up around guns, and feel comfortable with them. i believe that people who have guns in their homes should be trained and taught to respect them.

for others, i would expect the same things.

So I just got one of those annoying emails from Mom. But this one related to the topic, so I read it. It actually makes sense and I thought it was a relevant tip to share.

> > It's a security alarm system that you probably already have and requires no installation. Test it. It will go off from most everywhere inside your
house and will keep honking until your battery runs down or until you reset it with the button on the key fob chain. It works if you park in your driveway or garage. If your car alarm goes off when someone is trying to break in your house, odds are the burglar rapist won't stick around.. after a few seconds all the neighbors will be looking out their windows to see who is out there and sure enough the criminal won't want that. And remember to carry your keys while walking to your car in a parking lot. The alarm can work the same way there.....

Are we really in for another crusade? Can we take it down about 3 or 4 notches on the righteous indignation meter for this thread?

And yes, you're data is flawed.

As flawed as your grammar.

I defend myself by not being an idiot. Seems to have worked out so far.

Jinn ... I have been the victim of violent crime. I've been used as an initiation rite for a gang. I've been attacked by frat boys out for a good time because I look "different."

You'll notice that I only answered your question from my perspective ... yet you use it to attack me.

Do you know my socioeconomic status? You realize that Memphis fluctuates between #1 and #8 for violent crime and murder (depending on who's bullshit statistics you read at any given time)? I live in Memphis and ride a bike through several depressed and dilapidated neighborhoods almost daily. Projects that most people don't even see when they drive by because they are too busy locking their doors and rolling up their windows.

The problem I have with a lot of the questions that you ask is that when someone chooses to answer them you simply jump all over the responder using YOUR OWN PERSPECTIVE but you don't allow room for ANYONE ELSE'S PERSPECTIVE. This is not to say that your questions aren't valid.

I am 39-years-old ... I have spent a good part of my life living in crappy, cockroach infested shacks. That's not the case now. I have a completely different perspective on life now than I did 15 years ago. I don't put much stock in statistics no matter what numbers you throw out.

As for arrogance ... why don't you turn that judgemental eye inward for a while and see what you can find out about yourself? I don't need a lecture from someone who is asking MY OPINION.

The most important facet of defending yourself is being aware of the immediate risks, your surroundings, and who is in them. This is the number one way to defend yourself.

I have my Concealed Carry Permit and more often then not I do carry. I do not want to shoot anyone. But if someone directly threatens my life or the life of those I care about I want to immediately be able to turn the tables and remove the threat.

I think everyone can benefit from some of the ideas of Jeff Cooper(developer of The Modern Technique of the Pistol) He had a readiness code that pretty well describes some levels of awareness, these quotes are from wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_...7s_Color_Code).

I'm never in this state if I am out and about, only when sleeping and sometimes at home.

This means you are aware the world can be a dangerous place and you are aware of your surroundings and the potential risks in them. This would be the state I normally am in, and most people are hopefully in. although I do know people that are just totally oblivious to their surroundings and seem perpetually in white (and no I dont mean gg).

I've noticed a specific potential threat, I'm walking back to my car after visiting the ATM at night and I see someone else in the parking lot approaching me quickly.

I see the knife in the guys hand, he is a definite threat I pull my gun and if that doesn't immediately cause the guy to no longer be a threat, I eliminate the threat.

I would only ever pull my gun if there was a direct threat to my or my loved ones lives. If I walked outside and saw someone driving away in my car I wouldnt pull my gun and fire down the street. If I opened my front door and saw someone in a ski mask stuffing my dreamcast into a pillowcase I'd close the door, run around the corner of the house and call the cops. I'd even let them leave. Its just stuff thats why I have insurance. The only time I would pull my gun is if the person is a threat to me.

That is what works for me.

I cant tell how anyone else should defend themselves. Its a personal decision having a lot to do with your personal beliefs and comfort zones

Using your ATM scenario....IMO, you put yourself in a potential dangerous situation by visiting the ATM at night, in a dark parking lot, with no other pedestrians around.

Plan ahead.....visit the ATM during the day with lots of people around.

Just another solution to your scenario.

I agree completely, but those weren't "scenarios." Those were actual events in the Police Blotter for the past month. It's part of the reason I posed the question of "how do you defend yourself?" I'm not advocating guns for everyone, as my OP clearly mentions.

Well then in reality use the ATM during the day, you vampire.

JinnKai...I was referring to JStrder's scenario.

But even using your actual event (the details arent provided)...I would never put myself in that situation of using an ATM at night with no one else around....thats the best defense.

dc I'm thrilled to see you posting outside of politics, oh wait, my mistake, well lets make the best of this and see if we can get somewhere.

"Your honor, she was drunk outside the bar after closing, its not my fault, its her fault, she was asking for it."

"Your honor, he was using an ATM at night, its not my fault, he was asking for it."

First, while I'll blame the victim to an extent, such as someone hitchhicking across Turkey in a wedding dress to make a silly point, it does not mean they should be forced to live in fear of such lawlessness and forced by law to be defenseless.

Crime is not caused by law abiding citizens being armed, nor is crime caused by visiting an ATM at night. Were criminals to think that everyone visiting an ATM was in fact armed and dangerous do you think they would be so quick to molest them?

This is a funny picture, and its funny because its true...

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7192/protectny0.jpg

Which apartment is safer? We both know.

I trust my fellow law abiding citizens to be armed, why do you not trust them?

Forgot this isn't TFPolitics. I guess a lot of people did.

You mean my own state where the city of Chicago, where guns are effectively banned had 31 shootings this weekend? Eat your heart out Baghdad.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/9...042008.article

You want these people, many dead, to not be armed to defend them selves. Their murderers ignored the bans, they did not, and they are dead.

You fear law abiding citizens from being armed to protect themselves.

Why?

Ustwo....do you have a concealed carry permit in Chicago?

Ask the owner to install the deadbolts. I asked for deadbolts from the owner/realtor when I was living on my own, and the owner/realtor always complied. If they don't, then ask if you can have the deadbolts installed. It's worth it, and it doesn't cost that much.

I fail to see the relevance of this question.

Ustwo...I'm just curious how you defend yourself...per the OP?

You misrepresented my position. I have never been opposed to law abiding citizens owning guns or concealed carry permits.

I would, however, like to see more comprehensive threat assessment training.

But in regard to this discussion, I believe there are other ways that are also effective in minimizing the potential for becoming a victim of a violent crime.

There is about a 2% chance that I will become a victim of a violent crime in Washington, DC. If I avoid certain neighborhoods, it probably drops to far less than 1%. I imagine it is not very different than Chicago.

I always told my husband that if anyone broke into our house, I wouldn't be brave and go investigate. That I would take out my insurance policy, throw my kids behind my bed (all bedrooms are upstairs), and call for help. Then two years ago, when my husband was away with the army, that's exactly what I had to do. Our two large dogs alerted me, before I heard the noise. It was exactly 5 minutes after I turned my bedroom light off, like someone had been waiting and watching. That thought still creeps me out.

How should other people defend themselves and their families? However they need to. I know people who are more comfortable with a weapon (that they are trained on), martial arts, dogs, or a combination of things. Whatever works for their family and their situation, works.

Ghostgirl ~ A regular 45 is a bit much for me, too. Can you get ahold of a competition pistol? My 38 super competition has absolutely NO kick.

Did they actually break in? More details! I'm intrigued. I'm sorry that happened to you as well. In high school our alarm went off one night and my sister went downstairs to wake my parents up while I hid in my bathroom with a baseball bat in hand. The Brinks people called and I begged them to send police to the house immediately and that I hadn't heard anyone of my family members making a motion to turn off the alarm. Finally after about 20 minutes my dad came upstairs and told us to stay put. He checked the downstairs first and then the upstairs with his shotgun ready to go. He went outside next where he met a police officer coming around the back. He also made us the lock the door behind him when he went out. Creepy experience. To this day my sister, who lives alone still goes downstairs to turn off her alarm without thinking twice. I tell her she's a fool for doing so and not getting her gun instead and having brinks send a police officer to check the house for her.
Thats a great idea for a 38, the kick on a 45 is just too much for me.

As well educated white males this is true for both of us. I am safer from murder than my counterparts in Europe, despite all the hype otherwise. Odds are with my life style and location I will not come into contact with violent crime at this point in time, except under the most unusual of circumstances.

But, as you are aware we are not all well educated white males with a choice of neighborhoods and job locations.

Should the elderly be forced to be shut ins in neighborhoods which have changed into dangerous places because they can not prove a need for a concealed carry permit, or even the right to have a hand gun in the city? Should shop keepers trying to eek out a living be forced to go unarmed? Should cab drivers, constant victims of violence, forced to go into dangerous areas by politicians, unarmed?

We are all not well educated white males, and the police normally are only able to punish not protect. It should be the right for every free citizen, of sound mind and good character to defend themselves against those that would do them harm, without excessive impediment from local, state, and federal government.

I'll PM you soon when I get a chance. Bug me if I forget.

I think a regular .38 might still have quite a kick. It's the "competition" type that's designed to fire more rapidly with little/no kick.

I don't know if anyone remembers this ... I was in the TFP chatroom last June when an armed person robbed a bank 2 blocks away and then disappeared into our neighborhood. I didn't know what was happening at first, until the city called local residents to let us know. Multiple sirens in my area, and I saw police cars here and there on our street. One was at the end of our property, about 50 feet from my house. My backyard and one side yard are fields that are thick with trees and brush. On the other side is the highway, so this was a good place to escape the town (or enter a house if you could not). Anyway, I was home with just the baby. I took out my insurance policy, brought the two dogs in, and shoved furniture against the doors. I was talking to TFP members as it was happening. I remember Spec was there, but don't remember who else was off the top of my head.

I do whatever I can to avoid getting into a situation (at least when I am in the states) where I will have to resort to violence to protect myself or my family.

That being said, I am well prepared, and I believe it is part of being a responsible citizen to assume responsibility for your own well being, and that of those whom are dependant upon you.

I have a concealed carry permit, and I typically carry wherever I legally can. I don't anticipate an attack, but as a child I was attacked by a golf-club wielding man who intended to kill me. Shit happens and I don't want to become a statistic unnecessarily.

This isn't to say that I am going to come out blasting whenever something happens. If I am getting mugged, for instance, I can always choose to surrender my wallet rather than shooting the person. However, by having a firearm I have the ability to make a decision based upon how the situation develops. I have already used my CCW in a defensive situation when some guys tried to mugg me in a highway rest stop. I never even had to draw, as simply reaching for the firearm made the guys run away, but who knows what would have happenned if I had not had it.

Personally, I am far more trained and comfortable using firearms than the average person. My ability to successfuly employ a firearm to end a violent encounter is far greater than for the average person, or even police officer. I am confident that if someone gains entry into my house while I am in it, I will be able to defend myself and my wife. I have been working to harden my premesis, but nothing can be done to prevent a determined intruder, not better doors, or triple pane glass, if the person is serious about gaining entry into a house (and presumably they would have to be serious to break into an occupied home and shoot the occupants) they will get in. At best, your 'fortifications' will delay an intruder for a little while.

I do think Willravel is taking responsible steps to secure his house, but I think he ultimately is relying on an emergency service that more often than not arrives too late.

Additionally, I don't expect my wife to wrestle with an assailant, whether he is armed or not. If someone breaks into our house while I am away (which is, unfortunately, most of the time), I want her to be able to prevent an attacker from hurting her. In my opinion not all human life is equal. The life of a person who is trying to harm my family is forfeit if taking that life will protect my loved ones.


What should other people do?

As stated above, I believe ensuring your own well being is a personal responsibility. How far you go with that is also a personal choice. Several court cases have ruled that police departments are NOT responsible for ensuring the safety of individuals, and that the onus is on the individual to protect himself. Avoidance only goes so far. I believe RESPONSIBLE firearm ownership is a good starting point, though security is obviously more multifaceted than that. I don't think people should go around in constant fear that something bad might happen to them. To suggest that people who take steps to prevent something from happening are in constant fear is absurd. I wear a seatbelt to help prevent me from being injured in a car accident, I have health insurance incase I break my arm, and I mitigate the chance that someone may attempt to hurt me.

Yup. Situational awareness at all times goes a long way. I'd say that given the care I take when I'm anywhere alone by myself (walking in town, etc), as opposed to the carelessness with which I drive, for example... I'm far more likely to be injured in a car accident than in a violent crime. The only place where situational awareness does not really apply, is when I'm in Beirut, Lebanon and there is a constant potential for random car bombs to go off in my immediate vicinity and kill me. But, we take our chances. No gun is going to protect you from that shit.

I've also taken personal defense classes, and I'm always preparing an escape plan in my head, almost everywhere I go (even at home) in case there is an intruder. No way in fuck that I would ever stick around to defend my property, EVER. That's one more reason to not buy a lot of useless, expensive shit... everything in our apartment is used and fairly unattractive, so I can't see what anyone would want. Maybe the laptops? But we back up the most important stuff, so feel free to take them.

We'll see if my perspective changes when we have kids... depending on where we live, I can see an alarm system or something being a good idea.

I will never own, let alone carry, a gun.

(worries about the lay-down-and-die mentality shown by some in this thread)

I'll be ignorant and assume there are first class people here at the TFP. Amazing, worthwhile, intelligent people who have a lot to offer the planet. I really would want these useful citizens to defend themselves to their maximum physical and legal ability should they encounter a situation where they must do such against a criminal.

In a world of apathetic bad guys... why do the good guys still quiver? Why are you still afraid of being wrong?

...

I think the OP could be worded a little better but maybe I see a different point in all this.

I don't quite understand... who's quivering? I am not afraid when I walk on the streets. I don't need a gun strapped to my side in order to feel safe. To me, the fear factor is much higher for those who do carry... not a value judgment, but just saying... how do you feel, walking in a low-income, inner-city area (for example), without your sidearm? I'd say you might feel a lot more fearful than I would, because you're used to being armed, no?

Working at a police station in a medium population city has opened my eyes to what crime really is. My city has a population around 200,000. It's a big city but not overstuffed like NYC or Chicago. I've witnessed crime once in my life and it was in Washington DC. Saw a guy steal something from a street vendor and run.

Never have I seen crime in my own city and I've been here for 25 years. I thought that crime really wasn't bad here. That police officers ride around for most of the day, protecting rather than arresting. Holy cow was I wrong.

500 calls a week on a light week. FIVE HUNDRED people in my city, or 100 people a day on average needed the POLICE to come protect them from criminals or suspicious people. It's just time until it's you. Crime is everywhere and it can happen to anyone regardless of the precautions you take.

My wife doesn't agree with it so I don't have a concealed permit or a gun in the house but if it was up to me I would have both. Once you threaten someone's family, life, or property, you give up your right to LIVE.

What do I do to protect my family and property? Not much, and it sorta scares me. 100 people a day in my city need the police and I have nothing to keep me safe if I'm one of those people. What can I do? I lock every door, every window, and my car, but seriously, what can I do? All I can do is hope that it's not me when the next druggy is looking for money.

Ignoring the arguments already made I'll answer the OP Jinn:

1) I would try my best to elect officials that would help me, I would surround myself with people who don't like to shoot me, I would live in a neighborhood where it seems i won't get shot, I will do my best to avoid it.

Etc...

BUT, I don't plan to carry weapons. If anything, I would be more afraid of myself overreacting to a situation and doing something that would likely scar me for life, and ruin said life. Killing someone, even in self defense, would likely be too difficult for me; I'm pretty sure I can avoid death, and if I can't then I guess life got the best of me. Killing a person or people is not worth it.

2) Within the law.

Very interesting thread. Most of the concerns, solutions, attitudes, and coping strategies are understandable ... we ultimately need to be comfortable with our decisions.

For me it is absolutely prudent to plan ahead, take precautions, be aware, be vigilant. If push comes to shove, property is not life and not worth defending with your life... especially if you are unsure of your ability to contain the situation. How I defend my country, rights, and freedom is an obligation compulsory depending on the cause and events.

However, if I should perceive a threat of injury or experience an attack from any individual upon my family, myself, or innocent victims, I intend to use all measures available to eliminate the threat without hesitation or mercy. It's how I have rationalized my priorities and how I intend to act ... admittedly, we never know how we respond to danger until tested. I've witnessed attacks without reason or mercy. You can never assume an armed or menacing criminal doesn't intend to harm you or worse.

When I threw my kids behind my bed to hide, I did not join them, btw. I was hidden elsewhere, with a clear shot at the only entrance to the top of the stairs, and with my children completely out of the line of fire. My husband was gone with the army, and later told me that I was his hero.

A new entry on the blotter; this morning at 2 am, in my "safe" city:

I bet she didn't think it would happen to her. "Less than 2% chance", after all.

Don't be a baby.
http://pittsburgh.about.com/library/..._powerball.htm

I'll bet she didn't think it would happen to her. "Less than .0001% chance", after all.

Touché..

Just thought of something.
My neighbors a few houses down from my parents place own the largest house in the neighborhood, roughly 8,000 square feet. Our house is up there for being large at around 5,000 so maybe thats why they targeted these people. Well these folks owned a jewelry store. A former customer found out where they lived, came and dressed up as police officers were able to get them to open their front door and then from there they tied them up, ransacked the house all the while the neighbors didn't notice anything was going on.

Just as a general rule of thumb, don't ever let cops in without a warrant. And when they arrive with the warrant, verify it.

Yea no joke, I bet they'll think twice next time.

Just another reason to have a small apartment/condo with nothing worth stealing inside. :) And if someone was just going to tie me up (or put a bag over my head) while they stole the extremely non-valuable items from my house, well then go right ahead... probably doing me a favor, in the end. I always wish I had fewer belongings. :) Anyway, property is not worth fighting for, or being afraid of losing... if it were that important, then it would be locked up in a safe deposit box or would have theft insurance covering it.

Anyone that worries about crap like this is overtly paranoid.


I defend myself, property and my family by not putting them into stupid fuckin' situations where something bad might happen.

Will.. do you really think your home is impossible to break into?? That's pretty naive.

If I have to defend my property or family.. I will defend it with complete and utter chaos. Whatever it takes it takes. If I have to slit a throat so be it.

That being said, I try (like everyone else) not to put people in those situations, but it doesn't really matter where you live or how you live.. there is always a possibility of harm being done.

If you try to take my alcohol.. I'll probably defend it like I defend my family :p

All I said was that it's difficult to get into and probably not worth it. The house does not look expensive, and my car is 12 years old (and it looks like it might belong to a high school student). I close my blinds and shades before leaving for work every day, so they can't see my flat screen or stereo equipment, or my old eMac. The front yard is quite exposed and the back yard has a beagle in it that barks like it's going out of style when there's an intruder.

Add to all this the fact that San Jose has such a low rate of crime and it paints a clear picture: it's so unlikely that it's not worth planning for beyond basic measures. It's certainly not worth having a firearm, which I don't believe in.

Do you have deadbolts or auxilery locks that can't easily be defeated? Every time I hear you post about how impenetrable your fortress is I think of my locksmith uncle showing me how to make and use a bump key...and that's if you don't have the $50 to buy a snap gun.

all I'm saying is try not to be in too much shock if/when it happens (I'm not wishing it on you..don't take it that way) doesn't matter if it looks expensive or not.. houses in the ghetto get robbed too.

My outer deadbolts (the deadbolts on the security screen doors) were installed by a locksmith and he assured me that they're quite difficult to get through. I didn't just buy my locks at Orchard Supply or something, if that's what you think. I don't see much use in a lock if it's easy to pick.

I have had my car broken into. It was frustrating, considering that the police basically didn't care, but all they got was a $100 sony deck and some burned CDs.

Will, I am willing to bet you $100 that I can get into your house in less than 2 seconds using my friendly sledge hammer. Even the best lock on the best door will fail when it is punched straight through the doorframe.

That being said, if you don't feel you need a firearm, then nobody should try to force one upon you. All I want is the same respect given to my desire to be able to actively defend myself and my wife if necessary.

Punkmusicfan: I am not suggesting that you make a trip to the gun store, but I believe your reasons given are a little naive. I have shot people, and have yet to lose sleep over it. Before I was in a real fight I was worried about how I would feel, but knowing that the people I have shot were trying to kill me makes it very difficult for me to feel guilty. I don't know anyone who has felt the kind of life-shattering remorse you are describing from shooting an assailant.

Also, Why would you trust a stranger more than yourself? I don't mean to pick at you in particular, as this is a repeating theme in these sorts of discussions. Many people often say something to the effect of "I would never be able to make that decision" or "I am more worried that I would shoot the wrong person." When you get behind the wheel of a car do you find yourself swerving into innocent bystanders just because you can? Having a firearm does not mean you are going to use it against an innocent person unless you are 1: a criminal, 2: mentally unstable, or 3: on some really good drugs. Personally speaking, if someone has to make a life and death decision concerning my life, I want to be the one to make it.

http://www.doors-info.com/images/security%20door.jpg
Again, I've got security screens and security doors. And the sledgehammer would even have trouble with the windows. During the demo before I bought them, the guy had the window horizontal and I jumped up and down on it in boots. Maybe if you threw it like an olympian?

And I forgot to mention neighborhood watch. Someone might be inclined to call the police if they saw someone throwing around hammers like they were Thor in my front or back yard.
I'm not going to actively prevent people from getting guns, but I do want to make sure that they don't think that guns are magical tools that can save you and your children and that only pose a threat to "bad guys". I also want people to know that there are better alternatives.

You're a clever guy, you should try making a bump key for it and seeing if you can unlock it.

How to make a bump key, and use it to defeat a deadbolt in seconds:


(this line of discussion, and this video in particular, while slightly tangential, is VERY pertinent to "defending property and family", as it demonstrates why locks only keep honest people honest)

So if there is a fire in your house, the fire department cannot vent your house via breaking glass? They can't knock down your door in case of a fire emergency?

That's something I considered. The security doors were installed long before I moved in (I think mid 90s) and I asked the previous owners about it. As I recall, they simply told me not to have a fire. I laughed at the time, but it's the reason I have a smoke detector in every room in the house, including closets. There's also a fire extinguisher in the kitchen and the garage.

So you do not support gun control/banning legislation?

I find that very noble of you to support someones rights, even if you yourself do not believe in them.

Voting is a bit tricky. One can always vote to add an amendment which could negate the Second Amendment.

Let's just say if I were put in a governmental position where I myself had to make the determination as to whether one could or could not have a weapon, I would have to concede to the Second Amendment.

If I am ever in a position to own a large house, you better believe it will be outfitted with bulletproof windows and doors. Nobody would be getting in unless I want them to. Old habits.

If the fire department can break into my house, so can anyone else. I wouldn't have that.

powerclown, I'm 180 lbs. and I was jumping up and down with boots on the window laid out flat. The sales woman said (paraphrasing) "They're not bulletproof, but they'll stop most anything else". I've seen them take a fastball and a shovel without even getting scratched.

I think you need some fresh air will.

Why don't you move in to a bunker? At least that way you'll know for a fact that you're protected from ze germans.

Because of my work, I have a shotgun permit and will soon enough have license to carry a handgun (such a hassle in NY state) - however, none of these weapons will ever enter my home.

I don't live in the safest of neighborhoods and crime isn't exactly nonexistent around here but I'd much rather live knowing fully that I'm not prepared against everything (as if I ever could be) than have the fear of xyz control my life.

Did I mention that I don't trust the typical American "wooden plank" houses? I like bricks and cement. :)

You're welcome to venture out to a company that installs double and triple pane windows and ask yourself. For the time being, you should bear in mind that a layman's understanding of glass and windows is doing you a disservice.

You're right for the wrong reason. Double and triple pane windows don't add any security, they add insulation, UNLESS they ALSO have security film, which, from the sound of your demo, yours do. :thumbsup: This might be why you're getting arguement, since you've been playing up the multi-pane-ness and not the security film

Even single pane windows with security film are a good barrier:



(first scene is a door with no film for comparison)

I forgot about that. Yes, it has said film.

wait, can I change what I said to say that?

Maybe it's just because I live in a city with a great response time, but if someone breaks into my home 9-1-1 is going to be my first thought. Considering my cell is 99.9% of the time within arms reach its a pretty easy number to remember.

like i said will... why then not have the bars on the window? they keep criminals out and you can open your windows...

most counties have restrictions on those because of fire reasons, and your security film windows seem to fall under those restrictions. You're trapped in your home if there's a fire and you can't get out the windows.

Here's a crazy question: why wouldn't I be able to open any of my windows? I've got like 15 windows. And 4 doors. And I can't get to any of them? Or they're all simultaneously jammed or "melted"? None of my windows are jammed now, and my doors aren't just fine... they're fireproof. Not to mention we can get out through the basement. It seems a bit extreme to think that the only way to get out would be to break a window.

Also, I think this is becoming a threadjack. If you're interested in continuing in a new thread, that'd be my pleasure.

/threadjack

not really a threadjack will, since it's how you're defending your family, you've also got to consider getting out in case of an emergency. The emergency may be in your own home. Is California a retreat to the bedroom state? It wasn't when I was living there.

We recently had an elderly lady beaten and robbed right in front of her front door. We have 24 hour guards, and low crime rate. How did the assailant get in? She let him in. That's the weakest link to all security.

One of the other things that I think most people don't concern themselves about when "winterizing" or insulating is that there's a natural amount of air that should circulate. This helps remove the issues of carbon monoxide poisoning and radon poisoning.

Fire usually don't kill people, smoke inhalation does.

As far as I'm concerned, in NYC I don't have any weapons at my disposal. Living in CA, I had a 9MM, Mossberg hand cannon, and other weapons. I always pick up a weapon knowing that it is a possiblity that someone may not live depending on how I handle that weapon, responsibly and irresponsibly.

Can we get out in case of an emergency? Yes. All 15 windows open and the screens pop right out. Not only that, but I've got 4 doors. And a basement. That's 20 exits.

As for smoke inhalation,
And I have iCal remind me every 6 months to check the batteries.

What is a "retreat to bedroom state"?

Actually Will, I don't believe you can remove any part of the bill of rights, only add to them. The bill of rights enumerates rights that are INALIENABLE and thus, exist whether they are legislated or not. The government that tries to remove them is a government that needs to be overthrown.

It's not removal, but rather negation. One can negate an amendment by creating a new one.

"Inalienable" rights is another way to say, "I can't actually argue that this is a right based on it's merits." If we were actually born with inalienable rights, why would we need to write them down and enforce them?

See: 18th and 21st for an example of this.

18th: No booze!
21st: JK LOL

Today:

Today also:

Yeah, will, but that response is sort of callous, don't ya think? Sort of "Hey, fuck 'em, it wasn't me or someone I care about".

I understand your point, which is that not everyone needs to worry or take action to defend themselves every day. Still, some folks do. Some folks should, and don't, and pay dearly for it. So... too bad?

And JinKai, I didn't realize it until I saw this thread, but you live in my old 'hood. I graduated from Mitchell, and my momma still lives just a few blocks over. Small world.



As for the topic, you can probably guess where I come down in this debate, but I'm going to go mull it over some more and re-read the thread before posting.

I never said fuck them. I simply explained that while one person was victimized, 300 million were not. It was about trying to maintain perspective, something often missing from gun threads.

i lived in Chicago for 12 years (by which i mean the city proper,not the burbs) and I was never mugged, attacked, or otherwise put into a bad situation. I don't recall doing anything specific besides just "blending in" and looking like I belong wherever I was. I often had to walk from work to the EL at late hours (1, 2am) in some not so great areas. I guess I just made sure to not tune the city out as I walked; no iPod, no cell phone calls....just walked with a purpose, didn't screw around, didn't draw attention to myself, and was always aware of my surroundings.

Saturday afternoon (1:00 PM, bright daylight..)

This isn't a gun thread. I asked people how they will defend themselves. While part of my plan for defense involves a handgun, it doesn't have to be right for everyone.

Yes. Crime can happen. Anytime. Any place.

Why dwell on it? Why sensationalize it? You can take precautions without dwelling on statistics; you can be prepared without being paralyzed by fear.

What are you trying to "say" with these quotes about statistics?

When everyone becomes a vigilante are you prepared for the criminals to shoot first with no warning? Or are you just going to "defend" yourself against everyone who "looks like a criminal?"

Just asking. Trying to get a better understanding of what this thread is really about. First you ask for people to explain how they will defend themselves and now every reply from you contains some statistic about how 1 person in 6,000,000,000 who is mugged.

Yes, violent crime can happen (and has happened) to me--that still doesn't make it the epidemic that the media portrays it to be. Even if it DOES happen to me again it WAS STILL UNLIKELY. In the vernacular this attitude is called "perspective." It means "an understanding of the relative proportion of things."

Again, I'm not saying that people should not be cautious; but for some reason the reaction is way overboard.

Do you live in Irvine?


For home defense, all I need is my paintball gun loaded with OC shells, and my tazer to fry their testicles when they're [hopefully] blind.

Irvine has less than 150k people. Large city, I believe, means over 1,000,000. Statistically speaking, you're the safest from murder in San Jose, of all the large cities in the country, including New York.

To defend myself, I stay aware of my surroundings. If I go into a new place, I make a mental note of where primary and emergency exits are in case I have to find one quickly, possibly through smoke. I can stay calm in emergencies (I read a few years ago that a personality trait commonly observed in ADD/ADHD individuals is a tendency to skip the panic/shock reflex and go right to action, and I definitely am one of them.) I don't drive through bad areas when I can avoid it, don't walk in bad areas at all, and when I can't avoid driving through an area where I wouldn't walk, I keep my foot on the gas.

I look at people and keep an eye out for habits or actions that indicate they might be a risk to my safety, and keep myself and others in my company away from anyone I think might be a threat to our safety. If I don't need to be there, I leave. If I have to be there, I keep myself between any potential threats and an exit.

If I'm armed, I understand that I have a way to turn an "I'm going to die" situation into a "him or me" situation. I'd never try to be a hero and pull a gun on someone robbing a bank or other business unless I felt that it was a matter of me using a gun or people being shot. At home, same thing goes. Using a gun means I'm more likely to leave in a police car or ambulance a body bag.

As far as defending property, securing my stuff is the first step. I don't flaunt things that I have and I'm not going to make it easy for someone who wants to take my stuff. If someone is in the act of taking my stuff and not a threat to me, the police get a call and I might tackle the guy if he starts running away. It's just stuff, I have insurance for it.

For defending my family and friends, see the section on defending myself. You fuck with them, you fuck with me.

Unfortunately, on a mission to assassinate someone, you were shot and lost your memory. Now you have to outrun assassins and discover: who is Jason Bourne?

Tuesday.

Another 1/6,000,000,000 statistic! EVERYONE RUN!!! :eek:

When you're a victim, the "odds" of it happening to you seem relatively pointless. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by minimizing the fact that things like this actually do happen.

Are the incredibly slim odds of her being kidnapped and assaulted supposed to bring her comfort? It might bring you comfort, but I doubt it brings her any.

unless it's you

Both of these happened in my neighborhood and one in a section in my building.

While it isn't the norm, it is important to be aware and ready when other people are around.

This is a truly meaningless statement.

no it's not. i don't mean YOU as in willravel, I mean, you to everyone as an individual.

everything happens to someone else. that's what the statistics are, until you become one.

you aren't the teen that's pregenant, until you are.

you aren't the one with the DUI/DWI, until you are.

you aren't the one with an STD, until you are.

you aren't the one with cancer, until you are.

you aren't the one with involved in an altercation that results in an assault, until you are.

you aren't the one that is raped, until you are.

you aren't the one that is mugged, until you are.

you aren't the one that is robbed, until you are.

The odds of being hit by lightning are 576000 to 1. If I am hit by lightning, the odds of being hit by lightning are still 576000 to 1. Nothing changes. It's not about it happening to "someone else", it's about a reasonable response to probability of danger.

Have you ever swam in the ocean? Then you were needlessly risking your life because there's a 1 in 300,000,000 chance of being attacked by a shark. How could you needlessly endanger yourself like that? Simple: it's so unlikely to happen that planning for it makes no sense.

Wear a seatbelt because auto accidents aren't rare. Eat low fat foods and exercise because heart disease isn't rare. Don't pretend like statistically improbable dangers are a big deal. You're just wasting your time.

From the What are the odds of THIS happening ... thread:

How soon we forget, remember, then forget again our college math....