On proposing: Asking her father.
 

Greetings TFPers, I recently have begun serious deliberations with myself on nailing down details of the when/where/how of I intend to propose to my current girlfriend, we've been together a bit over two years, have lived together for the past 4-5 months and I think we're in a place where it not only makes sense, but is something I really, really want to do. One small problem: I haven't discussed any of this with her dad yet (asked his permission). Now I realize this might not be a big thing in most of the country anymore, but we come from two very small towns in pensyl-tuckey and it most certainly is a very big deal around here. I have several thoughts on the dilemma and I'm not entirely sure which one to go with, and you all are the largest and most reasonable(mostly :surprised:) group of people I know.

Firstly, I think that perhaps I should just ask him for his permission, in the stereotypical, admittedly patriarchal, way most of us would be familiar with. It is outdated, but it's tradition and 'just the way it's done'. This raises a couple concerns that I have with this line of thought, first and foremost, it is outdated. He doesn't own her, and has no right to give or deny permission. That's all good in theory, but in practice it doesn't matter, if it's something they expect, and I don't ask...well lets just say I've heard about other engagements broken off when the father finds out after the bride to be. So, in this (and many other things) there is a clear difference between theory and practice. Not only that, I don't think it's really an acceptable thing to do anymore (asking permission) as it goes against my sense of right and wrong, and what does that say about me, being a person caving on something I believe in just to make her dad happy? Of course, then I also have to ask 'what does it say about me not willing to cave on a belief of mine, that really isn't that important to to me in order to make her happy?'

This is not to say the only two options are asking or not asking for literal permission, but perhaps something like his blessing, or approval, would be an alternative. It would not be a deal breaker, but could be somewhat of a pleasing middle ground and it would let me know where I stand and his thoughts on the matter. Not only that, he and my gf are very, very close and it would be extremely important to her that he be happy for us. I don't know that it would be a deal breaker for her either. As close as they are, he knows as well as I do, she is going to do what she thinks is best no matter what anyone else thinks.

So, TFP, what are your thoughts?

Asking "permission" is obviously making you uncomfortable and for good reason.

Does he know your living together? Is that a big deal?

Presuming you guys get along already and approval is a given, I don't see why an informal conversation about your intentions should be too hard. State your intentions as fact and he'll probably congratulate you, right? Then he gets to tell her mother and you can all have a toast while he regales you with his own proposal and wedding stories.

Unless he's a controlling jerk and you're a layabout nogoodnick, you're working yourself into a lather over nothing.

Don't ask for his permission. Ask for his blessing.

Still patriarchal. Romantic. Earns points with her family.

Throw your sense of right and wrong about it out the window.

Daddy's little girl is daddy's little girl, and having good relations with your father in law is a nice thing to have.

I never asked permission per say but at some get together I took him aside and told him I got her an engagement ring. We didn't have a lot of time to talk and he just smiled his assent, said ok and that was all that was needed (we had been dating a LONG time by that point).

Now its not so much asking permission as showing you value his relationship with his daughter and value his opinion. Worry about him saying no only if he in fact says no. Maybe he has some concerns you can talk about, maybe he just wants to give you advice, maybe he will say 'about damn time' but why risk starting off a marriage on the wrong foot with your father in law?

Aww, asking for her parents' blessing is so romantic! It shows your GF that you really care about her family (earns points with her) and it shows her parents that you value them and care about the family as a whole (major points with the future in-laws). I agree with you that the "permission" thing is outdated, but asking for their blessing is wonderful:-)

Good luck! Let us know how it pans out :thumbsup:

Ktspktsp wanted to do this (done rather often in his country), but in the end it just didn't happen, and that turned out okay. My parents weren't surprised at all because I had been talking to them about the whole thing (from the point of view of it being MY and KTSPKTSP's decision, only--not theirs, or his parents) for a while.

I don't think there's any harm in NOT doing it (I think it's actually better to at least ask BOTH the parents, not just the dad... because that is by definition patriarchal), obviously... but there tend to be benefits all around, when you do ask. I think that it helps lay a good foundation with your future in-laws.

Then again, one of my now defunct friends went to the father of his wife-to-be, and the dad said NO, you are not good enough for my daughter. The guy went ahead and married her anyway, since that was what they wanted... but did not invite her entire nuclear family to the wedding. You can imagine how much fun THAT one was.

Nah, you're over thinking it. If you valued what her father thought of you, you wouldn't do such depraved things with his innocent daughter.

This is about appeasing the romantic wants of your partner. She believes that this is romantic, therefore you do it. If he says no, oh well. You've made the romantic attempt, and he's just damaged his relationship with his daughter. He has every reason to say yes.

Take him fishing, or to an auto show... something that interests both of you and will give you several hours to spend time together.

Say, "I'm planning on asking your daughter to marry me. How do you feel about that?"

You are not asking permission. You are asking an opinion.

My wife and I both come from a small town in the south, and I asked both of her parents for permission. I suppose I could've asked for their blessing instead, but the wording didn't bother me and I knew that they'd say yes (we'd been dating for almost 8 years).

I didn't look at it as a requirement from the "right way to do things" perspective. It's a chance to talk with her parents about how they feel. It also lets them know that you value their opinion, even if you feel that the answer won't matter in the end. Some parents may also feel that they are expected to pay for all or a majority of the wedding expenses. Asking allows them to feel like they're still in control of the their money, even though they'll probably say yes.

As far as worrying about getting told no, don't think about it because it probably won't happen. If it does, simply ask why not. This is another reason to do it in front of both parents, the mother will almost always say yes immediately unless she hates you, helping to persuade the father :thumbsup:

In the end, you really don't have anything to lose by asking. Be it either permission or blessing. If he says no when you ask then he would've said no when he found out later. And if he says yes, then you have taken the romantic route for your girlfriend and the "traditional" route for your future inlaws.

No, its about valuing their relationship even if I was fucking her brains out daily.

She didn't even know I was going to ask, I wanted her parents to know though.

Did she find out after?

She knows now, but I've never really stressed it. She knew her parents knew ahead of time but it wasn't from a romantic standpoint or done for romantic reasons.

I think its fair that you talk to the father prior, at the very least its a courtesy.

Maybe it was easy for me since I happen to like her parents and I knew she was saying yes too, I'm a hoopy frood after all.

Did she think it romantic?
That's true. When I think "Ustwo", I think "hoopy frood".

Don't think so, doesn't matter really, wasn't my motivation.

I guess that DOES make you a hoopy frood.

:thumbsup:

But include both parents.

Uh, just make sure you're reasonably certain of the answer, ya know, or wandering around the "event" for the next four hours will be really awkward!

What if he says no? I wouldn't take the risk. Elope I say, elope!

Wrestle him for her! :splat:

"Well, Mr. Crankyfather, I shall meet you on the field of honor at dawn!"

*cocks flintlock pistol*

Ktspktsp and I also figured that if he was going to be asking my parents, then I should be asking his parents, so that it wasn't some daughter-ownership (or romantic-expectation) thing... but rather, honoring each other's parents. But then we had to get married in a hurry, so we just dropped the whole thing.

I think it's a lovely tradition and intend to ask my future bride's father for her hand. After all, I'm taking his place as the man in her life, and it's a nice gesture to let him know that I take the responsibility as seriously as he does.

Apparently I'm spoiling for an argument at the moment, so I must ask:

"The man in her life?" I ask this sincerely... what does that mean? I have a dad, and I have a husband. They are both part of my life, as are many other important men who are parts of my life. My husband did not "take" my dad's place, by any means... that would be freaking weird. Nor do I need either of them in order to have a "life," at least not in the 21st century. So I could use some clarification... my apologies if my tone is overly critical here, but the point is important.

Also, would you be comfortable with your future bride asking your mother for your hand, because she'd be replacing your mom as the "woman in your life?" That is the only way that I can see this as not being a patriarchal/oppressive tradition, I guess...

Keep in mind I said taking over, not replacing... perhaps I should clarify that I only mean as far as being responsible of taking care of the partner, and you're right - it does work both ways (which I think has quite a beautiful symmetry).

I think it would be great for my bride to ask my mother. It might be considered unusual, but symbolically she IS taking over the role that mothers have of caring for their sons. I think throughout the courtship, a mother is generally more interested in whether the girl is right for her son, and a father is generally more interested in whether the guy is right for his daughter. True?

(this is NOT at all to say that fathers don't take care of their sons, or mothers their daughters)

I wouldn't have dreamed of asking her parents permission. I can't think of a better way to infantilize my future wife.

To have to ask permission suggests, to me, that she is either a possession that can be given or taken away, a child with no opinion of her own or both.

I honestly couldn't give a toss what her parents, my parents or anyone else's parents thought. I cared what she thought. Period.

This is a perfect way of articulating my feelings.

Yeah, but this sounds like the bride and groom have never cared for themselves?... I mean, unless you're getting married when you're still a child... I would assume that the groom has learned to take care of himself (independent of mother AND father, and any other caretakers) by the time he's ready to get married, and that the woman has also learned to take care of herself, just as equally, by the time she's ready to get married. Mommy and Daddy are long out of the picture by that point, financially, emotionally, and otherwise, I would hope.

So yes, two people willingly assent to help each other through life, but not in the maternal/paternal sense. It's a totally different form of "caring" for someone, if you ask me. I did not, in any way, shape, or form, symbolically or otherwise, step into the "role" of caring for my husband, as his mother cared for him as a child... and vice versa. The whole idea is rather creepy to me, and suggests an unhealthy feeling of dependence and need to be "mommied" or "daddied."

Also, what Charlatan said. :thumbsup: Our children do not belong to us, and neither do our spouses.

I don't dispute any of what you said. I think it honestly depends on the relationships each of you have with your parents. I still ask my parents for advice when it comes to making big life-decisions, not because I am incapable of making them myself, but because I appreciate their wisdom and experience, and they may well have some good advice for me. I also think there is no right or wrong in this.

Would it be inappropriate for me to suggest that a bit part of it for me is chivalry? I like to open doors for women, to help them with their coats etc, not because they're incapable of it but because it's a chivalrous thing to do and I enjoy it. If a woman dislikes that kind of thing, there's a good chance I would either not be marrying her, or would have picked up on it by the time I think about whether asking her father is appropriate.

Clearly a man who always knows where his towel is.

I also say ask for his blessing. Perhaps the distinction between asking his blessing and asking his permission is a fine one, but I think it's important enough to be made. You're going to do what makes the two of you happy. Asking her parents, then, is showing respect for local custom and for her family (who will soon become your family, after all).

It's not really a question of ownership. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that the bride-to-be (or groom-to-be, for that matter) is a possession to be bartered for. However, it is a tradition. Marriage itself is a tradition. Showing respect for how it's done in your area only makes sense. In other words, why do it by halves?

I wouldn't worry about her father saying no. Odds are he won't and if he does you'll probably go and do it anyway, I reckon. People generally do what makes them happy. It's up to him whether or not he wants to facilitate that or stand in the way of it.

Okay Hektore, the advice is in. You'd better tell us how it goes or else you won't have our permission to marry! Don't you dare leave us hanging.

Didn't you live with your wife, unmarried for years?

Under those circumstances its a moot point.

For me, my wife was still living at home, and had just graduated from college.

I have a great relationship with her parents, it would have been rude to not say anything in my book. The infantilization would only take place if I said 'Sorry honey but your father said no, so I'll be on my way.'

This seem like the same kind of tradition as asking if there are any "reasons why these two should no be married" or whatever that phrase is. I don't think either are really intended to be anything more than rhetorical questions. If most people nowadays want to marry someone, their parents consent or lack thereof won't keep them from marrying, the lack will just make things more uncomfortable.

practically I would prefer asking for blessing rather than permission, but really would prefer elopement for real practicality...

Personally, I think that's a wonderful thing to do. Not so much permission as someone pointed out, but for the blessing. It shows that you are not afraid of her parents and that you want them along for this crazy ride as well.

Honestly, I would just melt if my boyfriend would ask my parents for their blessing. It's old fashioned and romantic in my opinion.

This is almost entirely up to the relationship between yourself, your spouse to be (hopefully), your parents, and their parents (let’s be honest there are others than can and will squeeze in here like friends and siblings depending on situation).

The diplomatic answer is that every couple needs to find the right answer for themselves.

Some think it's a barbaric tradition, some think it's a sign of respect, hell I'm sure there are even some who are living the accused barbaric tradition. it's not important on the global scale of things.

What does matter is that you look at the situation at hand and do what you think is right. It sounds like the OP knows damn well this is expected of him (regardless of pleasantries and word choice) and I say good for him.

While I am not married and have never proposed I think that this fits into the general “learning that people have to fit together” process. My last ex would have been completely distraught had I even considered speaking to her father (perhaps for her the mother is the better party anyhow). It really would have severed and cauterized us. My current girlfriend would be similarly distraught if I was to propose to her without appealing to familial and friendly permission (her parents are deceased [and I won’t get the familial permission, but I have to have tried]). It isn’t about people being property or not in either case, the first girl is worried about proving her adulthood and independence, and the second is much more mature (coincidence, not implication) and views it as a sign of respect. Needless to say I am a much better match to the current girl (hence the use of the word current and the harsh treatment of my ex).

And damn you for the use of the phrase hoopy frood, now I will forever read the book as being
“Hey you sass that hoopy Ustwo, theres a frood who really knows where his tonic is”
I swear I typed towel but tonic came out, I hope you like gin and tonic or is it jynnon t’ahnnix?

If I remember correctly we'd been dating for about three years and had only lived together for about four months when I asked her to marry me (and I am not sure if her parents knew that she'd moved in with me at that point).

I too have an excellent relationship with my wife's parents (perhaps even better than my own parents at times). I still wouldn't ask permission. To me, the symbolism of the act is enough to infantilize her. Your scenario would infantilize me and commodify her.

Ah I have you confused with someone else from here then.

Still I don't see it as infantizling in the least.

I think it's a very sweet thing to do, especially if father and daughter are close. Maybe I'm old-fashioned that way - I still think the father should be the leader of the family and if he is still the leader of her family then it makes sense to ask!

How about saying you'd like to marry his daughter, asking for his blessing and recognising that a family's support is appreciated to make the union a long and happy one?

I think you are all complicating things far too much...

If this was me, and my dad was still around, I wouldn't expect any of this. I wouldn't mind if he decided to do this though - but only if it was as a romantic gesture, not a binding one. If I was treated as a possession, I doubt we'd be together.

Since in your part of the world it's expected, I think you can do it if you feel she will take it as something romantic only. If you think she may be offended by it, don't do it. I don't really think it matters if you have a few qualms over it. It's so irrelevant, if she would like you to do it and her dad feels respected by your doing it, then why not? It's not always about you.You know in your heart she's not yours to own and as long as she knows that too, it's just keeping her dad happy and in the loop, and making her feel all gushy inside lol

Yep, you are old-fashioned. But I still like you. ;)

I have been convinced from the beginning, that in this particular matter, the value of what's important to me is minuscule and/or nonexistent compared to the value of what is important to her.
I honestly had not thought of asking both her parents, because her father is my main concern. This has nothing to do with head of household or ownership principles, but everything to do with their extremely close relationship. The relationship she has with her mother hardly compares. But since you mention it, I think including both her parents is a much better idea.
If he does say no, I would very much like to know why. so his concerns can addressed. As I said before, it would not necessarily prevent me from proposing, it may alter the time-line I have in mind if he has a concern that I have not thought of which, though I believe is unlikely, is a definite possibility. Also, if he does disapprove, and we elope that could have terrible consequences for their relationship, something I'm attempting to avoid.
I can assure both of you this is the last thing that I would want to do. My motivation here lies only in making the joining of our families as joyous as I possibly can for all those involved, not for it's own sake, but in the interest of making it as joyous as possible for her. If her parents have concerns that I can address, then I presume this would remove a lot of undue stress on her (and our) relationship with them. This has nothing to do with infantilizing, commodifying her in any way (or romancing her just for romance's sake for that matter).

I realize what is right for us is far more important than what is right for them, but that doesn't mean what is right for them (or my parents for that matter) is not important. If they have concerns that I cannot (or am not willing to) resolve, I'm still going to ask her. These stresses would have arisen without prior discussion with them anyway. Nothing short of her (or my) will is going to prevent this from happening in the absolute sense, but in the relative where/when sense their opinion may carry enough weight for me to shuffle things around a bit, if in the end I feel it will make things better for her. I think the whole idea here is a bit old-fashioned, which is one of the reasons I brought this question to the TFP - to get differing, well thought out, opinions. I couldn't expect that from any of my friends or family around here. I likely would have been publicly labeled a bum for even considering not asking for explicit permission. As an example, it's not uncommon around here to find a group of elderly women discussing how it's absolutely despicable that women today want to work outside the home, and how we'd be better off as a society if they didn't. This place is awfully backward sometimes, so much so that I'm afraid of the things I don't even realize.

If that is what is expected where she and her parents are from, I think it would be respectful to honour them as you have suggested. It should be possible to do so in a way that everyone is happy with.

It's a bit old-fashioned, but it can be romantic. I would defnitely ask her dad for his "blessing" and not his "permission." It's more respectful to your honey, and plus, if you ask his permission and he says "no," you're screwed.

A.

This is how this ritual is done "properly" by one young man who's wedding I recently attended. Your situation, IMO, is so far flung from the actual entire courting ritual, so as you can make it up, as you go along.

Personally, I think all of it is a ridiculous anachronism, since we've evolved away from it, why even flirt with parts of it? Women are not male "property" in the US, anymore!

After meeting a young lady at his church, and developing a friendship with her over the course of a year, always spending time with her in the company of others, visiting her family, and becoming acquainted with her father, the young man I know approached her father and asked him for permission to court his daughter. Her father gave permission with the following conditions. There must be know handholding or other physical contact, no kissing unless and until the young man married his daughter, and no unescorted time spent together. They always arranged to have a "minder", a sibling of hers or a parent or friend along, whenever he picked her up in his car.

After a year of "courting", the young man asked the young lady's father for permission to marry his daughter, and it was granted. I attended their wedding last year, and after the father "gave" his daughter over to the young man, the officiating pastor announced that the couple was about to exchange their first kiss. I wasn't moved to feel I was witnessing something romantic, rather it seemed more like "ownership" of his daughter had passed from the father to the young man.

I thought that the whole ritual, and the courting restrictions, the father's "authority" were "creepy", and I had a similar reaction when I began to read your post. It's 2008, let us move forward, there are good reasons for the changes that have taken place in the "liberation" of women in our society.

If you must, I agree with asking for her father's "blessing" in advance, but even that strikes me as paying lipservice to a patriarchy that women have mostly escaped from now, after much hardship, temporary setbacks, and sacrifice.

We are not that far removed from a time when families met when their children wer still very young to enter into neogations to bind the children to marry at some future date. Does that custom seem "romantic"?

/Raises the dead

We decided to live a life without the internet at home, or television for that matter, and thus I've lost my TFP for a long while. I didn't want to leave this hanging, even though it seems to be too little, too late. I want to wrap this up now, and return to a life of posting, since I've discovered the free Wi-Fi at the local library.

The thought expressed by Charlatan of infantilization of said future wife completely undermined my train of thought of showing respect for her father. It suddenly became apparent just how disrespectful it was to my potential fiancee's autonomy. I wanted her father's approval, but not to the extent that I was willing to forego my plans with his daughter simply because he objected to them. I have always said that being honest is more important that being polite and to really 'put my money where my mouth is', I decided to forgo the antiquated ritual of paternal consent.

I asked her, about 4 months after my original post, she accepted and not once did the issue come up, until the next weekend when we made the long journey to her hometown. Apparently, it was not as important to her as I initially anticipated. We told her parents, they seemed genuinely accepting, if not outright pleased(they're both tough reads, and i'm not very good at reading people anyhow). After our weekend I found out from her that whilst I was out of the house she talked with her dad and he claimed he was grateful that I did not ask, because the whole ritual would have just been very awkward to him, and he was at least pleased that I did have some concern for his opinion in the matter. +1 for fate (& TFP) I guess.

Glad to hear that it worked out. Good to see you back.

congrats! good to see you back as well....

Don't ask for his permission unless you are willing to not marry her if he says not.

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

oops, too late. sorry.

x2

Permission makes it sound like it's back in the Victorian days when you come a callin' on your girl.

Oh poop. I just read the OP's new post. Well, congrats anyway!

Congratulations.

Congrats ... a year late.

First.... Congratulations

This is very interesting. I never saw this a year ago, and at that time my son was going about asking his future father-in-law for the permission to marry his daughter. My wife and I saw it kind of charming that he wanted to do this. However we were somewhat concerned with the ceremony where the father gave his daughter to our son and passed her virginity on to him. On the one had we respected the wishes of our daughter-in-law's family, but troubled that her father felt he could pass control to another person simply because they had a penis.