Marriage and calling it quits after 16 years??
 

Looking to see if I can have other people point of view on the situation that I am in. I am at the point where I have just thrown down the flag and given up after 16 years of trying and giving my all.

Info on us. We have been married for 16 years now. We got married when we were young due to being immature and dumb at the time. I am 30 and she is 29. We have four kids ages 15, 13, 9 and 5. Throughout our whole 16 year marriage, me and my kids have been the ones doing everything as far as cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc….

I work full time and will also be going back to finish my Masters degree. I pay all the bills, help with all the chores around the house along with my kids. During the period before she started going back to school a year ago, she never pitched in any help unless she sees me to the point that I am very angry at her. If I ask her nicely to do anything, it will just come to the point of her saying “ I will do it later, I will do it later and it ends up never getting done”. I think she must get a kick out of it to see that I am angry and the she will then finally help out for a day. But then the next day, she is back to herself as if watching a movie or just sitting around letting life past by as if there is nothing important to do around the house.

I have tried for the past 16 years to try and change her bad habits and just be more responsible as far as taking care of the kids, cooking for the kids and help clean around the house. Tried the nice way of communicating what she needs to do, should do, issues as to why its not getting done, and what can I or the kids do to also motivate her. Any problems that she may have. Tried the bad guy way and even at the time of rage, said that for her to just leave because we are at a point where we are probably not meant to be together. Both went to counsel to maybe reconcile our differences. But, nothing seems to be working. I guess its like they say “After so many years of trying to help and change someone and they never do, they will never change.”

The things that she does around the house is lounge, watch TV, movies and non productive things while I am at work. I get home and just hate having to keep reminding her that things need to be done around the house and watching a movie is not going to clean it. Now that she is also going back to school, she still does the same thing and wait till the last three or four hours of it being due, the she would finally start working on it. It just seems like she has no care in the world and understanding. Counseling does not help, communication does not help, threat of leaving does not help? What else is there but to do the ultimatum and just call it quits now?

Basiclly what it comes down to is that she is a lazy person and after 16 years of trying to change her lazy ways, nothing is working. I am just tired of give, give, and never receive any help back.
Do you feel also that after 16 years of marriage and if a person is still how they are, that they will never be able to change.

Uh...how did you get legally married at 14 and 13? And you have a 15 year old at 30 and 29? :orly:

I think you should divorce her and sue for full custody of the children, but unfortunately the courts are unlikely to side with you.

Yeah, that is what I was wondering, too!

long as they had their parents permission its not illegal (Im assuming they are in the states)

Who cares how they got married so young? That isn't the issue.

Personally, it sounds like you've exhausted nearly all of your options and have been more than patient and tolerant of her laziness. I would suggest getting rid of the TV, but that wouldn't really solve the problem because the issue stems deep inside her.

She is obviously taking a lot of things for granted, and perhaps she will only realize how much she cares about everything once it's gone. If I were you, I'd talk to a lawyer and discuss your legal options. If you're really that miserable, it's not worth waiting around for another 15 years in hopes that she'll change. You still have a large portion of your life to live... so go live it.

let me understand this, so is the not cleaning up and cooking a dealbreaker?

if somehow the place was clean and food on the table but not done by you or her is that still a dealbreaker?

maybe the kids need to be brought to bear on solving this since you two are back in school and probably don't have the funds to cover someone else coming in to clean up.

Assign one of the kids as part of their chores to delegate and clean up the house.

If you'd like to hire someone to come in a clean, maybe she takes a part time job to pay for it.

he already stated the kids were helping with doing all the chores

I got that, but his statement included himself, which is why my question is if he's no longer doing it at all, does that still create the same issue for him.

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. I was 21 when I got married, and I really had to deal with the fact that while most 20-somethings were out sewing wild oats, I was already settled down with one person.

I can't imagine what making a lifelong commitment at the age of 13 would do to a person--and I don't see how a 13-year-old could authentically make a promise to be with one person for the rest of their life. I know some 13-year-olds. They have a hard time foreseeing the end of the current hour, let alone the rest of their life.

I would ask first if you still love one another? Does communication and respect exist in the marriage? We can't make any assumptions here. And we've heard only one side of the story. ;)

It sounds as though one of two things may have happened here. From your side, it sounds as though she's taken advantage of your kindness and willingness to do the tasks from day one and sees you as a pushover.

If there is any love and respect remaining, counseling would be the way to go. Sadly, it sounds as though it may be beyond that. :(

Cyn has a very good point.

I'd also like for you to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.

Your situation struck a chord with me.

1 - You're thinking about leaving her when you're about to go to night MBA school? Do you not realize the instability this might bring to your children's lives? Mom and Dad divorce. Dad fighting for custody. In the meantime, stuck with Mom, doing all the chores Dad used to help out with. Don't see Dad except for the rare vacation day, partly because of custody issues, but mainly because he's either at school or work all the time. My father went to night MBA school while working full-time. He disappeared out of my life for a few years. Do you really want to confuse your children (especially that 5-year-old) by telling them you love them enough to find them a better mommy, then being unable to spend much time with them for 2 or more years?

2 - What kind of individual allows the person they love to be in agony over something as minor as household chores? She is not being fair to you. Are you certain you're expressing your doubts about your marriage and other feelings to her adequately? Yes, she has put you in a bad position. Her behavior is reprehensible. But you need to stick with her until you have that MBA. Once that degree is in your hand, and you have 2 years of documented negligence against your wife, then find that lawyer.

2 stories to share, from family/friends:

M and R love each other. They get married. They know what they're getting into: M knows that R doesn't have the same knack for cleaning and cooking that other girls do. M accepts this. R is a creative, brilliant artist and would like to spend all of her time painting. Fortunately she realizes the need to provide for her family while her husband is a full-time student. M watches the kids while doing homework, he likes to clean so he does the chores. The same with cooking. M knows that he chose this life when he married R. He's ok with it. R works full-time at a job she hates, then comes home in the evening and completes online courses for her MA degree. M watches the kids, does all the cleaning and cooking, and occasionaly asks for help from R's mother. He's happy that R is working full-time, but hopes she'll be able to get a job she enjoys once she has that MA.

Q and B get married after knowing one another for 6 months. Q and B think they love each other very much, but it's probably just infatuation. B never was allowed to help with chores when she was growing up. She didn't know how to make dinner or clean. Q taught her how to cook his favorite recipes, and how to clean. B was happy to learn. B had a high-paying full-time job in fashion and loved it. Q had a decent job as a mechanic and loved it. B did most of the housework, even though her job was more demanding. Q came home from work in the evening and yelled at B because B didn't clean things as nicely as Q wanted. B cried, told him she tried, and was determined to do better the next day. She didn't like disappointing her new husband. Q and B decided to move someplace new, out of the hustle of downtown. They moved to the country and bought a large home with a large yard. Q liked to garden. Q demanded they get a house where there's a big garden so he can play in it during the weekends. Once they moved in, Q asked B to maintain the garden. B reminded Q that she didn't know how to take care of a garden. Q handed her some books and asked her to have fun. B, overwhelmed with her added responsibilities from the larger home and yard, had a miscarriage. She decided to quit work because it was too stressful with all of the stress at home. Q didn't want his wife supporting him anyway, so welcomed this change. B stayed home. She spent all day cooking and cleaning. She wanted to please Q. Q came home from work every day and found something to criticize her on when it came to her cleaning.

35 years later, their 25 year old daughter comes home from college and looks around their house. It's not just clean. It's hygenic to the extreme. She asks B if Q still comes home every night and criticizes. B breaks down into tears. Yes, he does.

Are you certain that your standards are not set too high?

In what state is marriage at 13 years old legal? Neither men nor women are old enough to marry at that age. They've not yet developed mentally or emotionally.

With the consent of parents, Utah.

Normally I don't like to generalize, but Utah is kinda backwards.

In many states its legal if approved by a judge

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenus.htm

This is one I see that specifies a 13 year old

New Hampshire: Individuals under the age of 18 may not marry in New Hampshire. Brides must be at least 13 years of age, and if under 17 years of age, will need parental approval and a waiver. Grooms must be at least 14 years of age, and if under 17 years old, will also need parental approval and a waiver.

I thought this kind of thing was considered antiquated, and for good reason. The necessary emotional and intellectual development to facilitate coupling isn't anywhere near in place at that age. It's not fair to either party, and as much as I feel for the OPer, a marriage that young is not likely to succeed because so much is set against it.

Invaliduser's wife never developed into a mature adult as a direct result of her marriage at 13. It's okay for you to blame your and her parents, invaliduser. I'm very sorry.

I'm sorry. I guess I was brought up wrong. I was brought up that in a marriage, it should be a 50/50 relationship and not 90/10. My bad.

Our marriage was conscent thru the parents.

Well the question I have....is why you've let it go on for 16 years?

how long of those 16 years have you lived on your own? (ie didnt live with relatives)

I said how, not why. I agree getting married that young is a bad idea... but that wasn't what Kadath and abaya were addressing, and neither was I.

If you re-read it, I stated both me and the kids did the work. That is about 90% of everything. And yes, I am still taking part in the work and not just the kids alone.

Moved out when I was able to get a job at 16. Was able to save enough for an apartment.

has she ever been seen for anything like depression? Im sure getting married that young and becoming a mother that young has had some impact on her thinking?

edit - sorry ShaniFaye, we must have been posting within minutes of each other:)

It sounds to me like she is depressed. Not in the sense of "oh boo hoo, I'm sad", but in the sense that she has shut down and given up on ambition, drive, life.

I'm not giving her a pass, mainly because we don't know all the details. It could be laziness, but I doubt it. At the core, some people are extremely goal and purpose driven. When they perceive themselves at a dead end, and when life may not currently provide the information they need to focus their inspiration in a new positive direction, they literally shut down or immerse in distraction. Sometimes basic needs, family, and survival are not enough to jolt someone like this out of their rut because they no longer recognize opportunity or hope. Sometimes tough love is their only hope.

Have either of you seen a therapist? Was there an event that you can relate to when these changes in behavior started to surface? There could be a number of physiological and psychological issues that are contributing to your wife's behavior. But again... she may be just plain old lazy.

I would say your first step is speaking with a good divorce lawyer and seeing how you can lose as little as possible, with 4 kids all of dependent ages thats going to be difficult to work out.

As for the real question though, from what you presented it sounds bad. Obviously no one knows enough about it to give you real advice on how to get her motivated. There have been times where my wife goes into 'lazy' mode for several months, especially right after having a child and the hormones are screwed to hell, but this sounds like a deeper issue for you and what worked on my wife is going to be different for you.

Not to play Dr. Phil and give you bad pop psychology psychobabble, but it sounds like she never grew up, it went from her parents to you being her parent.

How to fix this I have no idea. My first thought is to let thing start to go to hell, do only the minimum and see how she reacts. I'd have done that a long time ago, letting the trash, the dishes, everything pile up.

The math problem aside..(on 10-6-2004)
you stated that you were 28 and had been having sex since age
16....

Sounds like a rough time..I empathize..
maybe your own personal counselor would be in order.
Be well and good luck..

I hate to be this blunt but...



You said you got married young because you were immature dumb. And you're still immature and dumb.


Get a divorce.

Blunt: You go on strike. You don't announce it. Stop cleaning the house. Period. No giving in because you can't stand the mess. You get out of the house (with kids), if you must. What happens?

Only you can decide whether you can live with the situation and either decide to accept the laziness, try to change her (not liikely), or bail out. Also it has been my experience that there are two sides to these stories.

You guys have been together for half your lives so you probably know that she is not going to change much. For what it's worth, I know several guys who are divorced and remarried who are going through problems in their second marriages. One comment I overheard was "If I had put this much effort into saving my first marriage, I would never have gotten divorced".

This should be illegal. It should be absolutely illegal for children to get married.

Because 16 years and 4 kids later hes sick of her being lazy?

I think its fucked up too, but this is not the case for it.

my great grandmother was 14 when she married my great grandfather....they had 16 kids and he was the great love of her life....she never remarried after he died because she said she'd had the best, she didnt need to find another

This is only one small example. As I said above, coupling requires certain emotional and intellectual capabilities that children are yet to develop. It's that simple.

And at that point people still got married because one family had two goats and a son. And the other family had zero goats and a daughter.


"I'll sell you my goat and throw in my son if you can promise your daughert can bare at least two sons."

While on the one side it horrifies me, on the other I'd put a gentlemans wager that very young marriages like this one are no more fucked up than normal ones on average.

sorry, my great grandparents didnt have farm animals lol...in fact they didnt farm at all.

I remember hearing her talk about him when I was younger...her face always lit up

i dont have any particular opinion about the situation outlined in the op because when you write about something like this, you reorganize it so thoroughly that the story ends up being more about what you are trying to do than what explains what you are trying to do.

i was married for 17 years and then we divorced. what i different is that we had no kids.

my only bit of advice is--and this comes from the fact that i did not do this, so trust me on it---this will fuck you up for a while. get counselling. dont fool yourself into thinking that because you feel ok that you are ok---you may end up performing your not-okness in all kinds of ways--and chances are, if my experience is any guide at least, you wont see it.

16 years is a long time. you are knit into this thing in a much deeper way than you think.
get some support.
you'll need it.
it isn't a bad thing to do, it is not a sign of weakness.

I agree with Roach....I divorced after 15 years (1 child) and even though it was an amicable and much wanted (on both sides) divorce, I still had a difficult time emotionally when it was finalized (ask ratbastid, I was in tears and just sitting in my car at the courthouse not knowing what to do next)

How important is it to complete your Masters? Required immediately? I know I would want to finish any degree I set out for immediately... but I have the luxury of being a young jack-ass, no strings attached at this point.

If I were in this situation, I would hold out on getting the degree, divorce the woman, get things back on track with you and the kids. When things are well between you and the kids... then worry about the degree. What I worry about is your children picking up her bad habits.

From a divorce stand point you are better off getting the degree after the divorce from an earnings standpoint.

If you are going for a Master's, then you must have at least a Bachelor's degree, right?
I agree with Ustwo(yikes!!) and othe others: Hold off on the degree, get yourself and your affairs in order and get out.
I think she's stuck in 14 or or regressed to 14 if she wasn't always "this bad". While I am not in the exact same boat, I know that at some point, when we're dissatisfied with our lives, we regress before we can move forward(if indeed she ever thinks she can move forward).
Having two teenagers is rough enough; having two teenagers, two more and an unhappy home makes for a very bad emotional mix. Don't hem and haw and hope she'll "snap out of it"-make a decision that will be of your and your kids' best interests. A lawyer can help, so can a therapist.

Aha! I hadn't even thought about how much easier it would be financially for you to be a single parent while attending graduate school. Grants and low-interest loans galore. Smart thinking. This is a good option, if you make sure you don't start graduate school until all ties are broken and the kids are definitively yours.

It's definitely a messed up situation. She's treating you horribly. Moving on is a great idea. Sounds like since you've been dealing with school and the workplace all this time, you've experienced considerably more personal development.

1.) Marriage counseling and

2.) Since when is someone being lazy grounds for a divorce? I could see if you didn't love each other anymore, but the fact that she doesn't cook and clean...?

*Shakes head*

Q: "What's the only difference between marriage and suicide?"

A: "Suicide is illegal."

Off-topic, much?

Yeah, I remember that. I didn't know whether to congratulate you or console you. ;) Course, you had Dave at home, so I knew it was more toward congratulate.

I believe I'd take that bet. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the stability of a marriage, in general and all other things being equal, is directly related to the age at which people enter into it. I'm not quite sure how you'd settle such a wager (how do you quantify "stability"? Divorce rate doesn't quite entirely capture it.), but it seems intuitively true.

I think I'd be willing to say that the direct relationship between marriage-age and stability has no boundaries--that a marriage entered into by two 70-year-olds is more stable than a marriage entered into by two 40-year-olds, and that two 19-year-olds would be more stable than two 17-year-olds.

I entirely misread that. My apologies. I really need to post more slowly. :oogle:

When you have 4 kids, taking care of them and doing the house work is a rather important part of keeping things happy at home.

If you work all day, and come home to find your wife hasn't done anything but watched TV and picked her ass all day, its going to get old in a hurry.

Reverse the situation where the woman works all day and comes home to find her husband did nothing but play video games and watch Springer, expecting her to take care of the kids, shopping, cleaning etc for years.

There isn't a woman on the planet who would say to stay with a guy like that.

I got togther with my wife at 17, and we split at 34. Based on your tale our lives were similar to yours.

She worked, but only part time, and it was never a partnership of equals.

As for the issue of "if you have a cleaner would that be OK", I'd say it's not the issue.

In my office we COULD hire extra staff, and allow some people to sit on their arses, but we don't - we don't because it's a group of people who all input.

In this marriage, he works, she sits on her arse. That is not equitable, it's not respectful, and it's not fair.

If you can't respect someone, you can't love them.

If you pay, don't move out. Get her out. If you can't get her out, at least move into a different room, or sleep on the couch.

Arrange your finances to protect yourself.

Take legal advice.

Don't fight.

I think the stability of a marriage is directly related to the maturity-level of the people who enter into it, but not necessarily the ages. I think most everyone knows people who act vastly immature for their age, and also people who act quite mature for their age... so I'm not so sure that the correlation between age and stability is as direct as one might think.

No problem. :)

There may be outliers and anecdotal exceptions, but for my money the best correlation with maturity is good old age.

I'm posting from the POV of having experienced divorce twice, first after a ten year marriage, and court approval of a separation agreement with a 9 month old child involved, and the second time, after a ten year childless marriage.

In your case, I think you have to consider divorce as a luxury that will cause you more risk and possible grief than you're currently experiencing. I'm guessing you have not had an opportunity to accumulate enough wealth for it to figure conserving it to be a mitigating factor in any divorce proceeding.

My second divorce was ugly and expensive, my ex-wife intiated it, and shortly after we separated, the estranged wife of an employee at the business my wife and I owned/operated, called me to complain that my wife was involved with her husband. After our divorce, my ex married the guy. It was ten year ago, it was a childless marriage, and legal fees ran into 5 figures. If your wife is cooperative in divorce negotiations...and why would she be? She isn't now, maybe the two of you can build on that to work on preserving what remains of your marriage. If she isn't cooperative, you'll probably be bankrupted by the legal expenses, or aftereward, you will live like you have been, anyway.

If I'm wrong, and you are of considerable means, you can afford to hire an expert divorce lawyer, and you can stop reading here. You will have some leverage to preserve some control over you situation.

If you're still reading, consider that every dollar you spend on a divorce lawyer is a dollar unavailable for maintenance of your kids and the household they end up living in.

In addtion to the checks you write to pay your lawyer, you will be putting your access to your kids and the financial details and obligations involved in providing for them in the hands of a stranger in "the system". The economy we all participate in is headed into the shitter, for at least the next few years. If you think you want out now, how will you deal with an economy influenced interruption or reduction in your income, while you scramble to make impossibly large, timely alimony/child support payments, mandated by a family court judge relying on a formula of X number of dollars per month per child, and by default, awarding custody of your children to your wife, because you don't have the heart/resolve/money to direct your lawyer's dismantling of her reputation/fitness to parent, in family court.

Suck it up, at least until your 13 year old is 18, or surrender your life to a costly, third party process that will take your financial future and your access and relationship with your kids, out of your hands.

When my son was born, the result of an accidental pregnancy after nine years of marriage, I asked myself, can you continue in this marriage until your son is in his late teens? I doubted that I could, and I resolved to end my marriage before my son ever got used to me living with him and his mother. I changed my work schedule so I could spend every morning with him, right through dropping him off to afternoon kindergarten sessions. I attended his little league games, spent weekends with him, welcomed him when he decided to come and live with my second wife and I when he turned 12. in 1984, the family court judge approved our separation agreement stipulating $75 per week for child support, I always paid at least $100.

You won't be fortunate enough to get terms or access like I got. It wasn't easy, even with those terms and no trauma in my son's experience of a marriage ending and a household breaking up.

Unless there are grounds more dire than you have described, I don't think you have fully considered how much of your own autonomy you would be turning over to others, in the process of divorce, and the impact it will have on our kids. Stick it out for five more years, and when you are down to two children under 18, and none under 10, take another look at it.

it's irrelevant at this point as to what age they were married because he's not asking for the beginning of the problem, but a window with which to find an answer to the issues of now. Granted information from the past does help, but it's time to find out what to do in the now to make things move for the future.

Protect, Save, Build, Preserve.

It's the four building blocks for financial planning. However in this case, I will use it towards your current situation.

Protect your assets - Using corporations or structures to seperate yourself and your earnings from your wife to ensure that you will have sufficient funds to survive alongside provide for your children.

Save - Fix what can be fixed, save what can be saved - now that you're protected, check yourself to see if you are truly communicating properly. Are you communicating to her, or with her? And check the same from her side.

Build - Your relationship with your children. Build good behaviours to change unwanted results. Good intentions are one thing, but without behavioural changes, the result will always remain the same. Build your relationship back up again if possible - see if she is able to agree to being accountable for performing certain behaviours. Reward or punish the behaviour accordingly. Sell the TV if it's what's getting in the way. If nothing's left to build upon, build the case against her with recorded unbiased proof that she is not fit to raise the children on her own. Build the case that shows that your marriage should be either annulled or end in divorce.

Preserve - Your rights to keep custody of the children if she's truly not pulling her own weight. The "going on strike" idea is a good one, but ensure that you don't damage your children's understanding of right and wrong in the meantime.

Good luck whichever way things end up.

What it all comes down to is what is going to make you happy, or less unhappy.
If you continue in the marriage, you will come home to a lazy wife and a dirty house. If you divorce, you will come home to a clean, and very lonely home. Getting a divorce has very wide spread implications on the lives of you, your wife, and your kids. You did not touch on anything other than her laziness. In my case (divorced after 25 years), she had already "checked out" on the marriage, and on our family. Your wife is just lazy, and from what you say she always has been. Your level of tolerance has changed. Do you still love her? Does she still love you? These are very relevant questions you did not address. You have lots of things to consider. Do your children think you have a happy home? Are they tired of hearing you come home and fight with her about being lazy and not cleaning the house. What does your wife think about the two of you getting divorced? Would she agree to an uncontested divorce? Would she allow you to have custody? The financial implications are an entirely different and painful subject, but you did not mention any concern about that.

For me personally, my ex's behavior justified the divorce, and I tried everything I could to help her get herself together, and my kids know I tried, and they tried to help her as well. It was very important to me that my kids understood that I did all I could to preserve the marriage. Two of my kids were over 18, and I knew with her lifestyle, it would only be a matter of time before she allowed me to have custody of my 15 year old without fighting me in court, and it only took 5 months for her to realize that. So in a matter of 6 months, she was out on her own (granted, with a big pile of money...), I still had my house, and my kids, and there is no alimony in my state if she makes any money at all.

All that being said....it still sucks. There are many things to think about before completely giving up, and a clean house isn't everything. Do you two still love each other?