the blashpemey challenge
 

http://www.youtube.com/video_respons...?v=i7QVbJnSPQE
Howdy all, I am not sure if this post belongs here, but im sure it can be moved.
This is a link to a youtube video about the blaphemy challenge. Thoughts on this issue would be appreciated. Pros and Cons. Please be civil. If you do not belive in GOD that is ok, it is your right, but please do not flame others who do. Since you have the right to not believe,they have the right to believe. Thanks

I think that the intent of this thing is obviously to attack Christianity and mock the idea of the Christian God. I think that the people who started it are trying to provoke a response. Otherwise they would have called it something like "The Atheist Community" instead of deliberately labelling it as blasphemy. As long as they don't threaten anybody or advocate violence, I don't see any reason to worry about it though :)

I didn't saw any of the videos, i just went straight to http://www.blasphemychallenge.com to see what is this all about, in a few words, this guys are giving away a free copy of the "the God that wasn't there" DVD to anyone that uploads a video to youtube in which one denies the existence of the Holy Spirit and give one's soul away.
I won't go into the whole God exists doesn't exist shit once again, as for the same nature of the "GOD SYSTEM" any effort to try to show or refute it's existence is totally and completely futile. What really catches my attention about this, is that in a way, Atheism is beginning to sound and look like any other religion or sect and their principal advocates as Pat Robertson's clones, I mean, is simple respect I think. Many of you know that i love South Park, and this situation can't but remind me of an episode where Cartman freezes himself in order to ease the wait for the Wii's launch and he ends up waking up thousands of years into the future and everybody is an atheist, thing is that they are in war against each other because, even though they are all atheists, each group believe that they own the truth to atheism. Thing is that is not GOD the problem, or whether you are right or wrong believing in its existence, but in respecting others ideas and opinions.

Im sure they are making people like Richard Dawkins very proud.

I repsect a person's right to be an atheist even though I dont agree with it....whatever floats their boat.

I repsect a person's right to be an atheist even though I dont agree with it....whatever floats their boat.
I agree, I think that they have the right to beileve whatever they want to believe, just thought it interesting that something like this caught on all of a sudden. If so many people have fealt this way, why did they just now decide to do something like thid.

this is no different from the millions of christians who do the same thing. in fact, every time some politician says, god bless america, it is an affirmation in the existence of god.

this is just a silly attempt to counter the prevalence of god in our pop culture. given the rise in discussions about atheism is shouldn't be a surprise that something like you tube would reflect this (much in the way this board reflects what is going on in the larger culture).

Yes Indeed, Dawkins would be quite proud, he probably sponsered this mess. People will do anything for a free DVD, I'm not surprised, just disgusted.

I shall always be convinced that a watch proves a watchmaker, and that a universe proves a God. - Voltaire

Not really sure that I understand all of that, im trying to understand and have re-read it several times, but still no clue. Sorry, but you would mind re explaining?

I think alot of this stems from the fact that atheists are the least trusted of all American people. I live in the "bible belt" and I see a very indignant and hypocritical attitude from the majority of "christians" around here. If I happen to mention that I don't believe in God when someone is touting how people are sinners and God will send them to hell, it's almost as though they've been punched in the face. I really don't care how a person believes yet it always seems like people care about what I believe.

Christians are no better than an atheist. To say that only atheists act like this is purely ignorant. There will always be radicals on any front of any belief. It's classic. Jesus was considered a radical in his time, so to see it now shouldn't really come as a big surprise to anyone.

The fact is, believe what you want but don't get all pissy when my views don't match yours. Do what is right for you and leave me be.

I also agree with Charlatan, anytime a politician touts the phrase, "god bless America", it simply forces a view that I do not agree with and I would guess the only reason they say the phrase is to win the vote of the majority vote.. which is religious. I'm not attacking anyone who believes in christianianity, I'm just merely pointing out that perhaps people who claim to love everyone should actually look at themselves before they start examining <b>MY</b> beliefs. Save yourself instead of me. kthanx.

I said this earlier in the shoutbox (hi, woohog :)), but I see nothing more objectionable in this than in Christians going to Africa and China and South America and converting native peoples from their own spiritual traditions to Christianity. Suck it up, I say. Big deal. It pales in comparison.

I admit I rather live under a rock, but what's the deal with all this atheist shit going on? He's an atheist, she's an atheist, Christians arguing with atheists, atheists arguing with Christians (and other believers)...I don't know, it just seems to have some prominence in the last month or so. Is it just me? Is this the flavor of the period? Winter blues and everyone pontificates or something? I'm just having a hard time getting worked about this junk. Regardless, back to the regular programming.

"Hey, look at me, i don't think that there is a god, and not only that, but i'm going to draw attention to the fact that i don't think that there is a god in ways that could be considered moderately clever if they weren't purely exercises in snarky self indulgence. Everyone, come here. Look at how irreverently lacking in theistic belief i am when i do these things to draw attention to how very little i believe in dieties."

Ok thanks for the replies. I wasn't trying to start a theological debate, just wanted opinions. Hope this doesn't take that route. Thanks and lets keep this up, should prove to be interesting.

Now thats Hilarious!!!:) :) :) And Oh So True!!!:eek:

While I did find this funny, one can subsititute a few words and you have a large majority of christians. Perhaps this can apply to most people and how they become so militaristic when it comes to their beliefs.

I agree that this could apply to any group of people. I disagree that it could apply to a majority of any group of people; i think that most people are secure enough in their beliefs to not need to proselytize. They're still annoying when they do, regardless of what they're selling.

Well certainly for the past 6 years we've had christianity rammed down our collective throat. 10 commandment monuments at courthouses, parks, and other publicly-owned places, arch conservatives running around saying we need to get god back in government, "creation scientists" trying to say that faith is the same thing as science, the teaching of evolution attacked and in some cases banned, Dishonestly using false interpretation of scientific terminology to try and de-emphasize knowledge (it's only a THEORY, and therfore it's probably wrong!). . . All of it leads to an imbalance. Most athiests that I know of are perfectly happy to let religious people have their religion. But they get annoyed when those people try to force their religion on them, and their children, especially through the public education system. Quite frankly if evolution were attacked or banned in my kid's school I would be leading the charge against the "christian" (I use the term in quotes because a true Christian would follow the golden rule and therefore not try to infringe upon the rights of others) idiots who are trying to ban science.

The religious right has had their fun. They've tipped the scales dramatically in their direction, and now the people on the other end of the fulcrum are annoyed and are looking to tip it back. It's hardly surprising.

Situations like this will resolve themselves if people would just, for once, learn to live their own damn lives and leave the rest of the world alone.

This I tend to agree with. After all, how many people discussing this here wouldn't have heard about this "challenge" or wouldn't have given it a second glance if someone hadn't come here as a Christian saying how much it bothered them?

Me for one.

shit, there are a ton of things i would never know about if someone didn't email me or post it it or maybe (gasp!) have a real voice to voice, mano y mano conversation about it. shakran's post above and a few others have made me start thinking about this latest atheist trend a bit. five, six years ago 'lil ole pigglet was an atheist, would have little atheist conversations, and they would sort of go like most atheist/theist conversations...."leap of faith," end of story. it seems these same conversations are piling up these days. i can't figure out if i'm just older, so for some younger kids this is their first time through the "what if there is no god?" thing, or if its a backlash to the strident direction our country has seemingly taken in the past 5 years. interesting nonetheless.

Perhaps the kids are finally saying what they really feel instead of hiding in the shadows and just agreeing with what their parents have taught them or what the government says is right? I for one am glad that it has come to the forefront and even though I don't care how a person believes, I think it should be equal opportunity. Atheists don't get the same respect as someone who says they believe in god or even felons.

Shakran.. fucking spot on.

Well that wasn't quite my point. I have no problem with telling people about events and issues. After all, that IS kinda my job ;) I have a problem with the people who are making a legal issue out of what is and should be a personal life choice. Don't like gay relationships? Fine, don't have one. Leave those that do like them alone. Think you can only get into heaven by praying to whatever god you believe in? That's cool too. Hell I don't even care if you tell me about it. But keep your damn hands off of the legislative system. Don't even THINK about trying to pass laws requiring me to ascribe to your personal beliefs. Your personal beliefs are just that - personal - unless and until they start infringing on the rights of others. That's why murder is and should be illegal, while atheism is not and should not be. (that last sentence was added to ward off the inevitable "well if I believe murder is good I should be able to do it" argument).

I have no problem with making a video glorifying a god, or glorifying the concept that there is no god. I have a problem with religious people trying to force their beliefs on me through the legal system. Even the ultimate jackass athiest Richard Dawkins has publicly admitted that pressing to make religion illegal was stupid. The door swings both ways. Requiring religion or requiring people practice tenets of religion is equally stupid.

I think it's a little of both. I used to tell my girls, way back in the religious upsweep of the early 2000's, lol, that a most of these people who are "finding" or "re-experiencing" all this religious fervor will find it fading away in a few years because it is a trend. Much like any other trend. Those who are firm believers will spend years fighting it and denying it but their heyday is over, in my opinion. I think we will see a steady decline back to a more balanced and secular-minded society. I don't think atheism has enough pull to tip the scale in the other direction. Although it becoming slightly more prominent would be natural, I think.

Ah, I thought we talking about the blasphemy challenge. Silly me. ;)

What I was trying to say has been expanded upon nicely by just about everyone. Thanks.

I think Mixedmedia makes a good point about missionaries in Africa, etc. And yes, those who offended by the content of these posts should takes a moment to reflect on what their own beliefs are.

That said, I agree with Filtherton's sentiment. Youthful ranting such as we are seeing in these You Tube posts are grating but in the end, that's what a zeitgeist is all about. Get on board!

I'd just like to iterate, for the record, that I have nothing against sharing information that would otherwise not be seen or else given much attention. I am sure that YouTube is chock full of videos that offend something that I care deeply about. But I would never think to post a link to it here and decry it. It just irks me a little. Today. Because I'm just feeling a little irkable.

No offense to you, woohog.

I'm a little confused. woohog just posted the video and asked for what we thought of it without actually saying anything good or bad about it. Then a few people (including myself) said basically that it was annoying but let them be and a ton of people supported it. Who decried it?

I don't understand the thinking that would have this be an "attack on Christianity and Christians". Nobody's telling anyone what to think here. It's encouragement for people with certain beliefs (and lack of belief is a belief) to express themselves.

IMO, the most Christian thing a Christian has said in this thread is what Shani posted. On the other hand, the attitude that others not believing what you believe is an attack on you is patently UN-Christian.

I'm agnostic, so don't assume that I'm Christian just because I think this particular link is supposed to be confrontational. I think this "Blasphemy Challenge" *is* intended as an attack on Christianity because it's advertised as a Blasphemy Challenge, which is by definition the act of cursing God (not disbelieving in God's existence, but CURSING God). That couldn't have been intended as a friendly, "Here's what I believe" statement. It's clearly more like, "I don't believe what you believe, nyah nyah nyah!" I'm not saying that it is wrong, but I do believe that the purpose of it is to spite Christianity. Like I said before, though, there's no reason for anyone to worry about it unless someone starts threatening or advocating violence :)

I was part of a conversation about the videos before woohog posted about them. But I see your point. It doesn't necessarily translate to this discussion.

Although, to be fair, the disclaimer about not flaming people who believe in "GOD" makes it pretty clear what side of the fence woohog is on.

Okay, thanks for putting it into context for me :)

Wow, never realized this would take off like it did. I was not trying to stir up a hornest nest,If I did, it surely was not my intention. As far as posting the link, I just wanted to know what the thoughts on it were. I didn't say anything good or bad, on purpose. I think the only true way to learn something is too keep my mouth shut and just listen. Thanks for all the comments on here.
As far as christians acting like christians I would agree that most do not. It takes someone with a very strong faith to practice what they preach. I am trying to do just that. Not sure that I am doing a very good job of it, but I am trying. If you don't believe in God thats ok, its not for me to tell you what you can or must believe in thats exactly what it is.... a personal belief.
Also Jennifer, I posted this as Blasphemy challenge because that was what it was posted on youtube as. I probably should have changed the title, but I didnt think about it before I did. Sorry.

Cmon woohog, you didnt think this would stir the pot just a bit??? And stir you did!! I'm kidding dude, no biggie...its all relative anyway!! This is just a message board and most likely wont change the world!! Rock on!!!

Nope, this just did it. Saw it on CNN. Officially, GOD IS DEAD.

Now, carry on.

Yea Dave, I was trying to stir the pot, now I never thought it would get this stirred. Just wanted peoples opinions on this one particular issue, but it went out of control

Nah, this isn't out of control. You haven't seen some of the other threads where christianity vs. atheism reside. I'm pleased with the civility of this thread. Kudos

Well I try at least. I wasnt really wanting to get in that debate,just more wondering what people thought about the subject of the video, but it can be hard to seperate the two sometimes.

Well perhaps what you mean is not the "subject" of the video but the "purpose"?

Personally, I think the purpose of the video is rather silly. And it doesn't do much to make me want to watch the film...especially if the filmmaker's are associated with it. You are right in that it is a little mean-spirited to proclaim one's atheism at the expense of another's belief in god, but you know, eh...I've seen worse.

Oh, and another thing, I didn't get the impression that they were trying to "convert" kids to atheism. Just encouraging people to make a video stating their beliefs.

I was just teasing...Its really no big deal!! As another member stated, this is not out of control...not even close. I've seen out of control on a message board, and this aint it! In fact everyone has been damn near civil. I havent even seen any posts being disected line by line, so it cant be that bad...:) Have a wonderful rest of the day!!:) And get to work on those brakes!!:)

I never thought about anna nicole smith that way. ;)

...And people say atheists don't try to attack organized religion.

On one hand it's sad, yet I can't help but laugh. If God isn't real, then why do so many people spend their time trying to disprove his existence? Seems a bit odd to me. Oh well... Let the people have their fun. The last laugh will be on them ^_^

Ooook. So people say atheists don't try and attack organised religion. Guess what? Those people are correct, for the most part. What is the difference between a Christian posting a video with all their beliefs and an athiest posting a video with their beliefs? Should the atheiests just keep their mouths shut and pretend nobody cares that they don't believe in god?

If god is real, then why do people spend so much time trying to prove his existence?? That logic is flawed. If a person feels they have a connection with god, cthulu, flying spaghetti monster, anna nicole smith or whatever, that's fine. That's great for your life. For me, I don't feel any connection and I don't believe there is some magician in the sky developing all the outcomes for people.


If god knows the future, the future must already be determined. If the future is already determined, we have no control over our future actions. If we have no control over our future actions, we can't be judged based on them.

I don't believe in the existence of god and I've never spent a single solitary moment trying to prove it. Is that odd, too? Or am I just wrong? :rolleyes:

I always love it when Christians refer to the horrible deaths of people who don't agree with them (ie, "the apocalypse") with such concern and compassion. It gives me so much faith in Christianity's higher ideals and love for mankind.

Not.

I'm sorry. I wasn't referring to your post. I was referring to what the people on Youtube called it. I meant that *they* were confrontational in their choice of wording, not you :)

I'm sorry, but please explain why I should feel concern and compassion if you willingly choose to condemn yourself to an eternity of punishment and torment, especially when you had (Have) the opportunity to save yourself? Most religions have a similiar belief regarding the ultimate fate of non-believers, so I fail to understand the point you're trying to make.

well, il, i don't want to speak for m2, but i'll throw out my opinion that i have no respect for an omniscient being who is such a bastard that he/she/it will put people in burning fire or whatnot for eternity if they don't obey/worship/love/accept/whatever. that's the sort of thing i tend to associate with psychopathic abusive parents/spouses, not a loving god who takes the higher road to achieve peace and unity and whatnot.

secondly, i think you misread m2's post, technically. if you wouldn't be speaking of hell / apocolypse with compassion, then you're not the christian she's addressing. you sound like the old testament type christian...floods, plagues, frogs and locusts and whatnot. back before god was a hippie, you know?

I suppose I might be out of the loop, but can you find me a video made by Christians solely to provoke a response from those of a different belief system? There's a difference between advocating one's belief system and purposely trying to elicit a negative response from a religious social group. Did you happen to see the founder of the "Atheist Challenge" on FOX news?

...And my subtle humor goes unnoticed...

>_<

You have full control over your actions. God has given everyone the free will to do as they please. Your future is determined as you would have it determined.

If I offer a starving man a piece of bread only to have him turn me down, then I can't be called cruel/heartless when he dies of hunger. Most Christians are compassionate enough to warn you of the dangers of Hell before you go there. If you refuse to listen and end up there anyway well... That's your problem :thumbsup:

Sure. I can even do you one better. I can find you christian groups that go around in vans with giant "aborted" (actually stillborn and photoshopped, but they don't tell you that) fetuses plastered on the side, and posters of aborted fetuses that they carry in antiabortion rallies -- solely to provoke a reaction from anyone who isn't them ;)

If we have free will.. then that would mean that god doesn't know the future. Or wait, he/she/it just didn't make us robots right? pfft. does god say thinks like.. "ok .. guccilvr is going to be born and he will end up famous one day.. but I'm going to tease him first and make him a homeless man" I mean he/she /it knows the future right? So he/she/it would know what the outcome of my life would be. Yet, we have free will, and according to you the outcome of my life is determined by me? Ok I choose to believe god doesn't exist, and there is no hell. This doesn't add up. How can a person have free will yet still be in control of an all-powerful being??

These are the type of statements I have a problem with. You (and lots of other christians, claim a knowledge of hell as if it's fact. Do you believe every book you read as fact??

Ummm... What happened to the second sentence in the paragraph you quoted? I believe I said that "there's a difference between advocating one's belief system and purposely trying to elicit a negative response from a religious social group."

Come on, now. I know you know that I know you know what I'm talking about ;)

You can believe God doesn't exist and Hell isn't real. God doesn't dictate who you're going to be and/or what you're going to do with your life. Our actions aren't pre-scripted before we're born. Each person shapes his or her life as they see fit. Each person is given the ability to act of his or her own accord. God still knows the ultimate outcome of your life.

It's one of the perks of being omnipotent.

Do I believe every book I read? Nope. Do I believe the Bible as it's written? Yup. That was a rather simple question to answer :)

hey il, i assume you're not a calvinist? i'm no biblical scholar, but i seem to recall some huge fight over predestination and omniscience and all that junk going on that caused some sort of schism in the church as some point.

Yeah... I'm not a Calvinist. What was your first clue?

It's the use of the term "the last laugh" that prompted my comment. I've seen this kind of sentiment from Christians many times before. It's not simply the lack of compassion for those whom they believe will suffer a brutal and terrible fate, but a certain amount of glee taken in it.

I've also seen many Christians try to backtrack out of such statements when they are called on it. No one wants to be seen deriving self-satisfaction from someone else's suffering. But there it is.

This seems like a good time for some King Missile, don't y'all agree?

And not only that, to my mind, it denotes more fear of not being Christian than joy in being one.

Cool song, piggy :)

There's really nothing wrong with it, either. Everyone gets a certain amount of satisfaction from watching someone else suffer because they didn't care to heed their warnings. Say what you will, but such feelings aren't indicative of Christians, but rather people in general. It has little to do with a lack of compassion. People just like being right.

Plus, we'll finally get to laugh at all those people who called us illogical and definitively stated that God didn't exist (So it's a win-win situation) :thumbsup:

People don't want to derive self-satisfaction from someone else's suffering? I call BS. God knows that if tomorrow scientific evidence was produced which refuted beyond a shadow of a doubt the existence of a supernatural deity that you'd take part in the "I-told-you-so!" fest likely to ensue.

yep, carrot and the stick. when the carrot fails, then that stick gets pretty fucking big....time out? no, not time out. time in pain FOREVER!!! it'd be like punishing your kids by poking them with sticks...FOREVER!!! oh, didn't study for your test? lied about not sneaking out? VERY WELL! I'm going to tie you to a wall and poke at you with molten pincers...until well after you die. Take that!

as for the King Missile song...god that cracked me up ten years ago when I came across it. Its much better listened to, in my opinion.

Hey IL...maybe my understanding was wrong back when I was in the fold...but wouldn't that sort of attitude - the lack of compassion, the laughing at others' misfortunes, ignorance, pain, suffereing, etc - sort of put you firmly outside the group of the "saved?" I mean, wouldn't you be getting your ass fried with the rest of us, but with the rather trivial condolence of being the guy yelling "I told you so. He's a bad mother...."....while you're also roasting at the big Kenny Rogers in the sky for all eternity? Then again, as I said you seem to have that Old Testament vibe going on, so maybe not so much. Regardless, best of luck. I guess we'll all find out one day ;)

...And, once again, my subtle humor goes unnoticed (I even included the thumbs-up emote, this time)...

Anywho, on a more serious note, I find it odd how you continue to assert that Christians show a lack of compassion towards those who choose to suffer in Hell. You're told beforehand what'll happen if you don't believe and are given ample opportunity to believe, so I don't understand where your argument is coming from. Anyway, how's this for compassion?

A postcard to Hell from Heaven: "Sorry you're not here!"

I think there's too much generalizing here. And as usual, it always devolves to anti-Christian sentiment. I am a Christian and do not fit a single one of the attitudes or behaviors described by the atheists in this thread. Nor do any of my friends and family.

Are atheists only against Christians or ALL religions outside their own? I don't mind criticism of my religion, in fact I think it healthy but this seems a bit lop-sided to me. Threads like this one need to be more balanced.

I hate to break it to you, but many, many people are NOT like that. Of course, it makes it real easy to be a believer and not have to actually practice any sort of religious discipline or foster your own spiritual growth if you just want to bask in the glory of being "right." That's good enough for the lord, eh? I tend to think that Jesus Christ meant for his disciples to strive for more than they were when they came to him. I find it hard to believe that he would have much respect for the attitude of "eh, that's just what people are like, why bother?"

Atheists reject theism in all its forms. *edited for clarity*

How would you balance this thread?

...Subtlety doesn't go over well on the internet...

It's fairly easy to be a believer. All you need to do is accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, read the Bible and act as Jesus would act. I just thought that, you know, since people want to make generalizations of all Christians that I'd, you know, act the part ;)

Anyway, you're trying to attribute a negative trait to a specific religion, which is just a cop out. All humans are born with a very distinct set of traits, some of which manifest themselves more so in one person than another. Regardless, people strive to be proven right. Otherwise, we wouldn't argue and debate.

For what purpose?

jorgelito,

i'm personally not really against christians. i don't understand why someone would be into the faith, but i'm not anti-Christian, so to speak. I can understand the comforting aspects of the faith, but I just can't find it to pass muster. Hey, you're a Christian? Fantastic! I'm glad it works for you.

As far as the "only Christian, or all faiths equally?" aspect - I'm pretty much against (what I perceive to be mostly) arbitrary worldviews that lead to a condemnation of large sects of a population, strictly based on what they say they "believe in." Maybe they're out fighting hunger, or poverty, increasing the scientific and technological ability of society to address massive issues, maybe they're raising a family as well they can, basically being good people...but they haven't said the magic words, gone through initiation ceremony...whatever. that i find minorly repugnant. that applies across the boards, religions, creeds, social groups...

what specifically are you referencing as anti-Christian? I'd argue that you could slide Islam or Judaism or Zen-Buddhism in there, and I'd have the same sentiment. I read somewhere last year that someone found a bone fragment that they think might have been THE BUDDHAH's little finger...a bunch of guys with shaved heads showed up to worship it. WORSHIP IT!!!. I thought..."that's some crazy shit right there."

As far as you personally are concerned...well, you might be the type of Christian I can understand. Who knows? I think a lot of sentiments expressed by the "atheists" in this thread are in response to the sentiments expressed by the theists / Christians in this thread. If you want balance...well, then bring the balance. No one is saying a cookie cutter mold fits everyone.

Well, maybe adding or introducing new or other angles to the debate. It just seems a little flat.

My atheism question was because it seems to me that atheists only "pick on" Christians but leave all the other religions alone.

To try and stay with the OP, here's my opinion:

The video is what it is, it may be a bit harsh or "insulting" and hurtful but one kind of has to just deal with it. As to intent, no clue. I don't see any other atheist videos mocking or degrading other religions so it's not a stretch to think that Christianity is being singled out.

On a more philosophical level, I think it would be wise to do a little soul searching for Christians. One has to wonder, where these responses, biases, or bashing sentiments come from. A self-examination would be productive. Maybe Christians should think about themselves, their behavior and give an honest reckoning on how they may or may not adhere to Christian principles. could it be a backlash from previous history of persecution? Christian history does have a lot to answer for. Some Christians like to ask themselves: "WWJD?" But do they answer honestly?

Likewise, if we are to espouse Christian ideals, then wouldn't it be most effective to lead by example? I rarely see this these days. I actually think the problem is NOT atheism, but rather, Christianity (not the religion itself, but the state of it). I say this as a devout Christian, out of love and genuine concern, not hate.

So these videos etc, may be a reflection from a group that traditionally may have felt under represented or persecuted. It would be constructive to listen to what they have to say.

And for those that feel that these videos or sentiments are the only way, please be fair. Do not condemn the many by the actions of a few.

In other words, we should extend each other mutual courtesy.

There was no real purpose. There's a distinct anti-Christian air surrounding TFP and, as people already have pre-conceived notions regarding Christians and Christianity, I just thought I'd conform to those thoughts and feelings.

Besides, people like being proved right ;)

Thank you for your clarification. Yes, I realize one could substitute the various religions in the place of Christianity, but it is telling that it is NOT done.

I also understand and am against "arbitrary world views that condemn large segments of the population". I agree with you completely. My objection is that I do not agree that I fit into that mold although I am a Christian. I do not condemn.

These are fantastic topics to discuss and by rights we should really open up a few threads and have at it. Regardless of which side of the debate you are on, we all stand to learn something.

For me personally, I have found that talking to and with atheists, Muslims , Jews, Buddhists has made me a more tolerant person, a better Christian even. I think we all stand to gain something when we really think and listen and learn.

IL - thank you! i feel so much better.

jorgelito,

for my part, you must understand that i'm something of a smart ass. so i play a bit, with serious commentary riding underneath.

in another thread started recently by filterton, i put forth my basic thoughts on Christianity, and you can apply them across the board to most other religions that i know of. i think that a lot of people focus on christianity because its the major religion of the united states and western europe, and that's where a lot of the commentary is occuring that we are exposed to. i honestly didn't watch the video in the op, so i can't say that i think its the only way. if people loosened up their religions a bit, i think a lot of headway could be gained in determining which parts are useful, and which parts have simply lost their efficacy. but that probably goes against the nature of being relgious to many...you're not supposed to really modify it so much as accept it...otherwise, you're creating another religion a la martin luther.

edit: just saw your post jorgelito: word.

Glad I could be of service ;)

Now, on a more serious note, you'll find that as Jorgelito pointed out, it seems as if most atheists don't have many qualms with religion in general so much as it has qualms with Christianity. The "Blasphemy Challenge" just reaffirms this opinion. Instead of denying the existence of the general idea of God, they specifically deny the existence of a Christian God.

People say that Christians do the same thing, but I've yet to find a video made by Christians for the sole purpose of mocking and inciting a response from a different religious group (If someone knows of one then, please, enlighten me). There's a difference between advocating your religious beliefs and mindlessly attacking another religious belief.

So, you really think that kind of attitude will fly in heaven?? That sure doesn't seem like a christ-like example.

So how exactly are you going to prove this?? It would be nice to prove all the higher power believers wrong, but yeah, it's a little hard to do that when you die.

...It was a joke... Humor is hard to detect online...

Well, no one knows for certain what happens when you die (Though, I wonder what we would count "Near-death-experiences" as), though I like to believe there's a life after death. I wonder if I'd be allowed to be reincarnated as a ghost...

...view the entirety of existence through the lens of a book that was written at the same time people thought that the sun was moved by magic. You have to convince yourself that the universe isn't complicated and vast, but small and simple.

On the centillion (one million to the hundredth power)-to-one chance I'm wrong, I'd much rather spend eternity in hell than with a deity who chooses to set the rules at odds like this. The whole "You can learn how the universe works, but don't accept that knowledge because I gave you a book to believe in instead" is bullshit, and if any deity wants my love or respect, he, she or it should learn that respect and love are earned. That's where the heart of the blasphemy challenge lies for me.

I was dead for 45 seconds during my heart surgery. Spoiler: Nothing happened. I was not aware. It was as if someone simply shut me down.

I would guess that if you are looking at atheists who live in regions where other religions are predominate, you would see more atheists singling out other religions. Here in the West, Christianity is predominate and is the predominate religious movement that is trying to affect law and society to more closely resemble its views. I think your observation is as simple as that. If Muslims or Buddhists held a lot of sway in the American town square, so to speak, I've no doubt you'd hear plenty of healthy opposition from American atheists. (albeit, Buddhists aren't theists...I'm not sure where that leaves them, lol).

Fair enough, but you could still make the argument that Jews and Muslims are heavily influential in our world. Their religion is a major influence to them and accordingly, due to their influence in our society, the rest of us too.

You're wrong on both accounts.The Bible isn't a lens through which one views the universe, but rather a reference point which allows for a greater understanding of the universe and God's creation of it. You seem to forget that many scientists (Newton, Darwin, and Einstein to name a few) qualified their work based on their religious views. Therefore, I fail to see how one's understanding of religion narrows his/her view of the natural world... If anything, it expands it.

For one, the odds aren't nearly that high. That's simple an exaggerated number which most atheists tend to toss around as "Proof" of the fact that God doesn't exist. Anyway, here's a quote I happen to like taken from an interview done between Time Magazine, Richard Dawkins and Francis Collins:

---

TIME: Could the answer be God?

DAWKINS: There could be something incredibly grand and incomprehensible and beyond our present understanding.

COLLINS: That's God.

---

Dawkins then goes on to argue that the interpretation of "God" could be numerous different entities. It's not the first time I've seen/heard him backtrack on his assertion that God definitively doesn't exist.

Interview

*Refer to point number one*

*Insert fits of wild laughter here*

All right. Sorry. I just had to get that out. You're, in essence, cutting off your nose to spite your face. God doesn't need your respect nor love. He blesses you by honoring him. He doesn't "Miss out" if you choose to deny his existence. I can't help but think of the kid who causes harm to himself in order to try to hurt his parents. Ultimately, it's stupid as you only end up hurting yourself.

But hey... Whatever floats your boat :thumbsup:

I suppose your experience (Or lack, thereof) is greater than someone else's experience so I'll just take your word for it that nothing happens.

Religion would be a reference point if it could be expanded on. It cannot. The scientists you mentioned lived under religious persecution and in a world dominated by religion, so in order to make their views palatable, it was necessary to work within the framework that most people understood: religion. You might notice that approach is much less common today, where religion is less imposed than it was. Unfortunately, Darwin and Newton, along with many other scientists, had their findings destroyed, questioned as blasphemy, or tampered with by those afraid of progress. Also, the lens description was more of a type of perception, not suggesting it was more or less narrow than any else's perception.
Actually, I simplified the odds, which are much worse than I figured in order to simply communicate the odds in layman's terms. In order to adequately ascertain a number, one needs any sort of occurrence. No such proof or evidence of the possibility of an occurrence exists, therefore the actual statistics are more like infinity to 1. It's not proof that god doesn't exist. It's simply stating the fact that absolutely no evidence exists to suggest god is real.
That's exactly why I'm an atheist. The arrogant swagger and blind faith that are a bane to Collins' logical thought process is evident in his response. Instead of saying, "As science is ever growing and expanding our understanding of the universe", he suggests that anything beyond our understanding is god. That's stupid. Anything that's beyond our current understanding is simply undiscovered science.
You misunderstood his argument. He was arguing within a hypothetical situation in which there was god. It's not backpedaling, it's a waste of time.
I didn't say that god needs my love and respect, I said that he wants my love and respect, according to thousands of religious texts spanning the globe and the last several thousand years of human history. Again, you seem to suddenly forget that I said "On the centillion (one million to the hundredth power)-to-one chance I'm wrong," as a qualifier for the rest of the paragraph. God doesn't really exist, of course, but if he did and I was made aware of it, in that hypothetical situation, I would not respect him/her/it.
Greater than someone else's experience? Nope. It's my own personal proof.

I do agree that some atheists, particularly the ones in this "Blasphemy Challenge," are singling out Christianity in a confrontational manner. However, that's not to say that Christianity is blameless either. I don't know of any Youtube anti-atheist groups, but I am a bit familiar with history and a lot of persecutions have taken place in the name of Christianity (not that the religion itself stands for such things, but people in power claiming to be Christian have done many questionable things...) I don't want to get on an anti-Christian rant (I'm not anti-Christian :)) but I do think a strong case could be made for Christianity "mindlessly attacking another religious belief":sad: (That goes for all religions that I am aware of, not just Christianity (I consider Buddhism to be more of a philosophy or school of thought than a religion because there isn't any theistic belief that I'm aware of))

The reason that I tend to react to Christians more negatively than other religions is simple: personal experience. If I tell a Jew or a Muslim that I'm not religious, they say "oh, okay". If they seem approachable, I might even get to learn more about them and their traditions and beliefs. If I tell a "Christian" (of many different flavors), many have felt that that's their chance to convert me and make me one of them. They try to convince me their way is the only right way. I feel like many Christians act like the Borg: *you will be assimilated*. Clearly, that pisses me off - I'm not trying to convince them to give up their religion, don't mess with my beliefs either!

Now... that's not to say I agree with broad-stroke generalization, or that all Christians suck - many I've met (who are honestly practitioners and not just "raised christian") are wonderful, loving, open people. It's just that I've met more who weren't. Maybe that's a function of where I grew up and went to school, who knows.

Wow, thats all I can say is WOW. You guys are awesome. It really made me stop and think reading the answeres and some of the ideas being discussed on here. This is exactly what I was looking for.
I do tend to agree that most times "christians" seem to want to convert more than other religions, but all in all is it really a bad thing that they are on fire for their specific religion? I mean it seems to me that as long as you told them you werent interested, and they said ok, but maybe left you some literature or something, that that would be ok? Just my .02 cents worth. Good Job yall thanks for all the great responses!

Sure it would be ok if they left it at that and didn't make some snide comment about me burning in some damnation. In my experiences it's always, "well if you ever want to start living right, let me know." or "don't you want to go to heaven? Jesus died for you, he wants you to go to heaven with him, accept him as your savior!!" or "You sinner, blind in your ways, blah blah."

which then of course allows me the right to bash their faith and how I highly doubt that if jesus was real, she wouldn't be appreciative of their actions. It usually turns ugly at that point.

Interesting point, woohog1. If you bought a new car, and you really liked your new car, you're probably going to want to talk about it. You probably want to show it off to people. Tell them how great you think it is. If you really like your car you're probably going to tell others that it's so great that they should get one too. Yeah, you know there are other cars out there, but if you're convinced that your car is the best one on the market, you are probably going to reveal that to people you come in contact with. Others may disagree. They may be happy with their own car. They may even get angry and offended that you would be so 'rude' as to suggest that they might be happier if they had a car like yours. But there's nothing wrong with being so happy with your car that you can't help but want to tell others how great it is. And the thing is, even though there are some people who don't like being told their car is not a great car and that they would really benefit from your car, there are many many people who may have been looking for a new car, a car that met all their needs, because the car they were driving just wasn't getting them from a to b. Those people are glad when you tell them about your car. They want to know. Sometimes they don't know how to go about getting a car like you have, but they know they want one, and they're very happy that you took the time to tell them how they can get a car like yours. Then they go buy one.

I think I took all the elasticity out of that analogy I could. I hope it makes some sense. Maybe I'm just stoking a fire that many thought was gladly dying.

I myself sometimes get tired of these kinds of discussions because they're so circular. Oh well, maybe there's some good to come of it.

that's true daoust, but if i don't really know someone and they start in with the "my car is so great" speech, usually i just want to choke the everloving shit out of them, so they'll shut up and i can finish my coffee or whatnot.

one of the most insidious and annoying things about many christians down in the south is the part of their belief system that requires evangelism. you have to spread the word.

i don't know woohog, i don't carry about little pamphlets about my overriding philosophies to drop on people. all things considered, i'd prefer they save the trees, so to speak. i'm 99% positive to throw it away or in a recycling bin.

umm yeah, if someone brags about how great their car is, and I don't know them, they'll get a grand ol' "Fuck off" from me.

Piggie, you shouldn't be so quick to those those cartoon ones away.. they are fun to draw faces on and change words and hand it to someone else :p

Only thing is we are not talking about a car. We are talking about something much more personal and internal...your beliefs. What you feel is right and true about the world. What you feel the world and life is about or not about or just simply what it is. Most people will not get upset with someone's insistence about the superiority of a certain make of car. But when you try and tell someone that everything they believe about the world and their existence in it is wrong, it's much, much different.

"I'll be sure to remind you of the times I tried to lead you to eternal life when you're burning in Hell!" would be a snide remark ;)

I don't think she exists ;)

Remember what I said earlier about there being a different between advocating your faith and trying to instigate a negative response from someone of a different religious group? Probably not, but I just thought I'd reference it. Anyway, I'd kindly like to point out that Christians were (Are) commanded by Jesus to go out and bear witness to God's name on numerous occasions. In fact, one of the centralized premises behind any belief system (Religious, social or political) is that those who believe in it should disperse throughout the world and get others to believe in it as well.The "I-highly-doubt-that-Jesus-would-want-you-to-do-that!" argument is, therefore, hogwash.

Sure you are commanded.. by a book that has yet to be proven. God inspired it blah blah. I think there's a difference between telling someone that you believe in god and how good he/she/it is, and telling someone how they are a horrible sinner and if they don't worship this magic man and devote 100% of their life to him, they will burn in some pit forever. That sounds..umm.. like a dictator. Was jesus a dictator? is god? "You must do what I say, including killing innocent people (ignore the fact that the commandment says 'thou shalt not kill', or you will be sent to a firey pit for all eternity!"

It's amazing how silly the bible is when you break it down. It's like the classic fairy tale.. except a lot more gruesome.

my argument was not in regards to someone approaching me, but rather the attitude that the person projects while they are trying to 'win my soul for jesus'.

so therefore, your argument, is complete hogwash.

I would also like to kindly point out that this is not an accurate statement about christianity in general.

filthy,

i think il is probably a baptist, possibly of the variety southernicus baptistae, although i could be incorrect. the approach sounds fairly familiar.

I have to respond to this, because it's a complete and utter generalization. I come from a predominantly Muslim country (Nigeria). Take a trip there and tell them that you don't believe in Allah. See if they just say "Oh, okay!" and walk away. I guarantee you that it won't happen, as the believers of almost any and all religions are expected to convert people to their way of thinking. As stated earlier, the centralized theory behind any belief system is to get other people to believe, and practice, it as well. To assert-- Or even claim-- That only Christians try to impose their belief system on others is, for lack of a better word, just plain idiotic.

No, it's just an accurate statement of religion in general. Though, I'm wondering, could you tell me what sect doesn't bear witness? I'm rather curious >_<

and now for the rest of the quote

so she basically qualified it as being anecdotal. then you pointed out that its anecdotal. god i love it when everyone agrees. :)

Fitherton, yes it is...

(Jesus speaking) "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..."

Matthew 28:19-20

this just proves jesus was a control freak

I think Ghandi said it best

The first thing I'm going to say is "Read the Bible".

All right, now that I've got that out of the way I'll actually respond to your points (Or lack thereof). The proof which you require isn't the same proof as I require. I believe the Bible to be the work of God, therefore I believe it. You, on the other hand, require scientific proof. Scientific proof is can only disprove the known and not the unknown (I've written this about a hundred times on multiple threads, so I don't feel like re-typing out the entire thing. You can go find one of those posts and read it). And where does the Bible say that you must devote 100% of your time to worshiping God? Are you just making things up as you go along? And, as I'm sure you're well aware, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" has been translated to mean "Thou shalt not commit murder". Could you find me a place in the Bible where God commanded killing outside of wartime? >_<

It's only silly to you. To me, it's the absolute truth.

So, are you saying that if I came up to you and beg and pleaded that you'd turn your soul over to Jesus? Go figure...!

All right. I admit I didn't read the rest of her response. Fair enough.

I was raised as a baptist. I was in christian school and church for most of my life. I've read the bible and memorized more verses than people who believe in god. So .. don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

After seeing it and reading it time and time again, I find the whole thing silly and quite frankly looney.

Anyone can read and memorize-- That's no big feat. Very few people, however, actually comprehend what they read. Anywho, you can't just state "I find the whole thing silly!" without qualifying that statement.

...That's like calling your parents a control freak because they tell you to clean your room.

il,

i think i would differ in my characterization of the scientific method and its rammifications. i would say that the scientific method allows you to to determine if your interpretations of your perceptions are sufficiently close to your expectations based on an a-priori theory. in a sense, you never "prove" or "disprove" anything; you just make statements about the relative probability of hypothesis x being responsible or associated with phenomenon y. so while one can't make a scientific exploration to "disprove" god or gods, i think its reasonable to make scientific inquiries as to whether events described in various holy texts are more likely associated with the actions of god or gods, or by other phenemena and or theories. perhaps that's for another thread - i just keep seeing your post on that subject, and perhaps its just the wording that is causing me some bother. regardless, thanks for sticking with the threads.

The SM only measures the probability that the stated hypothesis is either true or false, not whether the statement is definitively true or definitively false (I've never disagreed here). Based on what science can measure and can't measure, and based on what science does know and doesn't know, it can only conclude that God might exist outside of scientific evidence-- Nothing more and nothing less.

Most of the more liberal sects don't actively proselytize, beyond the standard, "hey, we exist and if you happen to be looking for somewhere to worship, you know, check us out".

Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean it represents the beliefs and actions of all christians. None of the christians i know have ever stoned anyone, and most of them wear mixed-fiber clothing, if you catch my drift.

So, are you saying that because I don't believe after I've read the bible that I'm incapable of comprehending it?? I would expect no less from most christians. They usually act like I'm inferior to their knowledge when I question their faith. Whatever. I'm not the one who believes in some all-powerful trinity who was an asshole then decided to try and make nice with humans by killing his own son.

I really don't need to qualify the statement "I find the whole thing silly!" because I've been through the christian experience. While I never believed, my parents and brother and sister are hardcore chrisitans. I've seen it all, heard it all, read it all. My personal belief is that it is a silly book that was more than likely embellished throughout the years of man writing it. Just as most legends are embellished through the years of people repeating them. The story of the bible is no different.

The one thing I don't understand is if god is real, then why the need for all the different religions and interpretations?? The bible was inspired by god correct?? What about the book of mormon?? What about the quoran (sp?)? I would take a wild guess and say that god doesn't really have a religion. Yet his followers prove once again that they don't have a clue. Blind faith can only take you so far.

We can still use logic to see if a religion is consistent with itself and with our observations of the world. We would just need to identify the basic axioms of the religion and then see if everything else logically follows from that. It's easier said than done, though, as Aquinas discovered.

That's 'cause I wasn't here! Why is this in Tilted Living? Anyway, now the real fun begins...

It seems pretty clear to me that the blasphemy challenge is just a bunch of YouTube atheists spreading their wings. With the Intelligent Design movement as strong as it is, it appears that Christians are an extremely powerful political and social force in the US. It will say quite a bit to be able to publically blaspheme the Lord and just walk away. They're not threatening anybody or advocating violence so it really is quite harmless.

Just so everyone knows, there's a Praise the Lord Challenge on YouTube, clearly in response to the Blasphemy Challenge:

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I don't think I understand the offense of blasphemy. What does anyone care about blasphemy? Why wouldn't Christians just shrug and think "I guess they're going to hell..." What's there to be offended about?

On the topic of hell, a friend of mine, who was raised Catholic, tells me that the Catholic Church is "phasing out hell." So, in the not too distant future, according to a large denomination of Christianity, we won't be going to hell! Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Finally, if you actually watch the videos by the Rational Response Squad, most of them are response to Creationism and the Intelligend Design movement...

Why do you think there's a "distinct anti-christian air?" There's no shortage of theists on this forum. The worst you can say is that the number of atheists here is disproportionate to the demographics of the US, which is interesting but little else...

We all know what it's like to be dead. It's the same as before we were born...

They're not completely ignored...

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I couldn't find any on Judaism but, then again, they'd never consider pushing Intelligent Design, either. They're too smart for that. Is it racist if you like them?

So, all you posters... seethe in that!

The purpose of this is for shock value to Christians. I have grown up around fundamentalist Christianity my whole life, and I know that this type of stuff shocks them and outrages them. Note that I am no longer fundamentalist in belief, and I highly respect athiests who respect others and can have an intelligent conversation about what they believe, but stuff like this is no different, as somebody said earlier, from Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or should I say Fred Phelps?

Interesting! Of course such medieval methods of dissidence seem rather odd to someone such as me, who hails from an ex-communist country, where de-christianisation had been reasonably thorough, but I support the effort nonetheless. I don't view it as an outright attack on the religion, but rather as a tool of cultural self-liberation.

I percieve the atheist's goal as being the removal of Christian (in the case of the US) thought, debate, moral values and activism from the political and social mainstream and from the state apparatus. Intelligent Design and outright Creationism are ample proof that public Christianity can be seriously damaging to public education, as are the countless attempts to ban books throughout America.

I am absolutely appaled by some of the statements coming from the Christian right these days, and find the views of the most outspoken conservatives in your country to be completely mismatched with western civilization as it has been for the past 40 years. Sure, we have loonies in the EU as well, but neither religion nor nationalism are as strongly rooted amongst the masses there, and there is an unspoken consensus that Christian doctrine has nothing to do with statesmanship or the wellbeing of society as a whole. I hope that more young Americans free themselves from having to ever read the Bible with a straight face