mixedmedia

Only thing is we are not talking about a car. We are talking about something much more personal and internal...your beliefs. What you feel is right and true about the world. What you feel the world and life is about or not about or just simply what it is. Most people will not get upset with someone's insistence about the superiority of a certain make of car. But when you try and tell someone that everything they believe about the world and their existence in it is wrong, it's much, much different.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Infinite_Loser

"I'll be sure to remind you of the times I tried to lead you to eternal life when you're burning in Hell!" would be a snide remark

I don't think she exists

Remember what I said earlier about there being a different between advocating your faith and trying to instigate a negative response from someone of a different religious group? Probably not, but I just thought I'd reference it. Anyway, I'd kindly like to point out that Christians were (Are) commanded by Jesus to go out and bear witness to God's name on numerous occasions. In fact, one of the centralized premises behind any belief system (Religious, social or political) is that those who believe in it should disperse throughout the world and get others to believe in it as well.The "I-highly-doubt-that-Jesus-would-want-you-to-do-that!" argument is, therefore, hogwash.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Glory's Sun

Sure you are commanded.. by a book that has yet to be proven. God inspired it blah blah. I think there's a difference between telling someone that you believe in god and how good he/she/it is, and telling someone how they are a horrible sinner and if they don't worship this magic man and devote 100% of their life to him, they will burn in some pit forever. That sounds..umm.. like a dictator. Was jesus a dictator? is god? "You must do what I say, including killing innocent people (ignore the fact that the commandment says 'thou shalt not kill', or you will be sent to a firey pit for all eternity!"

It's amazing how silly the bible is when you break it down. It's like the classic fairy tale.. except a lot more gruesome.

my argument was not in regards to someone approaching me, but rather the attitude that the person projects while they are trying to 'win my soul for jesus'.

so therefore, your argument, is complete hogwash.

filtherton

I would also like to kindly point out that this is not an accurate statement about christianity in general.

pig

filthy,

i think il is probably a baptist, possibly of the variety southernicus baptistae, although i could be incorrect. the approach sounds fairly familiar.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

I have to respond to this, because it's a complete and utter generalization. I come from a predominantly Muslim country (Nigeria). Take a trip there and tell them that you don't believe in Allah. See if they just say "Oh, okay!" and walk away. I guarantee you that it won't happen, as the believers of almost any and all religions are expected to convert people to their way of thinking. As stated earlier, the centralized theory behind any belief system is to get other people to believe, and practice, it as well. To assert-- Or even claim-- That only Christians try to impose their belief system on others is, for lack of a better word, just plain idiotic.

No, it's just an accurate statement of religion in general. Though, I'm wondering, could you tell me what sect doesn't bear witness? I'm rather curious >_<

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pig

and now for the rest of the quote

so she basically qualified it as being anecdotal. then you pointed out that its anecdotal. god i love it when everyone agrees.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Daoust

Fitherton, yes it is...

(Jesus speaking) "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..."

Matthew 28:19-20

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Glory's Sun

this just proves jesus was a control freak

I think Ghandi said it best

Infinite_Loser

The first thing I'm going to say is "Read the Bible".

All right, now that I've got that out of the way I'll actually respond to your points (Or lack thereof). The proof which you require isn't the same proof as I require. I believe the Bible to be the work of God, therefore I believe it. You, on the other hand, require scientific proof. Scientific proof is can only disprove the known and not the unknown (I've written this about a hundred times on multiple threads, so I don't feel like re-typing out the entire thing. You can go find one of those posts and read it). And where does the Bible say that you must devote 100% of your time to worshiping God? Are you just making things up as you go along? And, as I'm sure you're well aware, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" has been translated to mean "Thou shalt not commit murder". Could you find me a place in the Bible where God commanded killing outside of wartime? >_<

It's only silly to you. To me, it's the absolute truth.

So, are you saying that if I came up to you and beg and pleaded that you'd turn your soul over to Jesus? Go figure...!

All right. I admit I didn't read the rest of her response. Fair enough.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Glory's Sun

I was raised as a baptist. I was in christian school and church for most of my life. I've read the bible and memorized more verses than people who believe in god. So .. don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

After seeing it and reading it time and time again, I find the whole thing silly and quite frankly looney.

Infinite_Loser

Anyone can read and memorize-- That's no big feat. Very few people, however, actually comprehend what they read. Anywho, you can't just state "I find the whole thing silly!" without qualifying that statement.

...That's like calling your parents a control freak because they tell you to clean your room.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pig

il,

i think i would differ in my characterization of the scientific method and its rammifications. i would say that the scientific method allows you to to determine if your interpretations of your perceptions are sufficiently close to your expectations based on an a-priori theory. in a sense, you never "prove" or "disprove" anything; you just make statements about the relative probability of hypothesis x being responsible or associated with phenomenon y. so while one can't make a scientific exploration to "disprove" god or gods, i think its reasonable to make scientific inquiries as to whether events described in various holy texts are more likely associated with the actions of god or gods, or by other phenemena and or theories. perhaps that's for another thread - i just keep seeing your post on that subject, and perhaps its just the wording that is causing me some bother. regardless, thanks for sticking with the threads.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Infinite_Loser

The SM only measures the probability that the stated hypothesis is either true or false, not whether the statement is definitively true or definitively false (I've never disagreed here). Based on what science can measure and can't measure, and based on what science does know and doesn't know, it can only conclude that God might exist outside of scientific evidence-- Nothing more and nothing less.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

filtherton

Most of the more liberal sects don't actively proselytize, beyond the standard, "hey, we exist and if you happen to be looking for somewhere to worship, you know, check us out".

Just because it's in the bible doesn't mean it represents the beliefs and actions of all christians. None of the christians i know have ever stoned anyone, and most of them wear mixed-fiber clothing, if you catch my drift.

Glory's Sun

So, are you saying that because I don't believe after I've read the bible that I'm incapable of comprehending it?? I would expect no less from most christians. They usually act like I'm inferior to their knowledge when I question their faith. Whatever. I'm not the one who believes in some all-powerful trinity who was an asshole then decided to try and make nice with humans by killing his own son.

I really don't need to qualify the statement "I find the whole thing silly!" because I've been through the christian experience. While I never believed, my parents and brother and sister are hardcore chrisitans. I've seen it all, heard it all, read it all. My personal belief is that it is a silly book that was more than likely embellished throughout the years of man writing it. Just as most legends are embellished through the years of people repeating them. The story of the bible is no different.

The one thing I don't understand is if god is real, then why the need for all the different religions and interpretations?? The bible was inspired by god correct?? What about the book of mormon?? What about the quoran (sp?)? I would take a wild guess and say that god doesn't really have a religion. Yet his followers prove once again that they don't have a clue. Blind faith can only take you so far.

Jennifer

We can still use logic to see if a religion is consistent with itself and with our observations of the world. We would just need to identify the basic axioms of the religion and then see if everything else logically follows from that. It's easier said than done, though, as Aquinas discovered.

KnifeMissile

That's 'cause I wasn't here! Why is this in Tilted Living? Anyway, now the real fun begins...

It seems pretty clear to me that the blasphemy challenge is just a bunch of YouTube atheists spreading their wings. With the Intelligent Design movement as strong as it is, it appears that Christians are an extremely powerful political and social force in the US. It will say quite a bit to be able to publically blaspheme the Lord and just walk away. They're not threatening anybody or advocating violence so it really is quite harmless.

Just so everyone knows, there's a Praise the Lord Challenge on YouTube, clearly in response to the Blasphemy Challenge:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wSO3uU0DhC4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wSO3uU0DhC4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I don't think I understand the offense of blasphemy. What does anyone care about blasphemy? Why wouldn't Christians just shrug and think "I guess they're going to hell..." What's there to be offended about?

On the topic of hell, a friend of mine, who was raised Catholic, tells me that the Catholic Church is "phasing out hell." So, in the not too distant future, according to a large denomination of Christianity, we won't be going to hell! Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Finally, if you actually watch the videos by the Rational Response Squad, most of them are response to Creationism and the Intelligend Design movement...

Why do you think there's a "distinct anti-christian air?" There's no shortage of theists on this forum. The worst you can say is that the number of atheists here is disproportionate to the demographics of the US, which is interesting but little else...

We all know what it's like to be dead. It's the same as before we were born...

They're not completely ignored...

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VaqDTudXB6s"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VaqDTudXB6s" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I couldn't find any on Judaism but, then again, they'd never consider pushing Intelligent Design, either. They're too smart for that. Is it racist if you like them?

So, all you posters... seethe in that!

beedubaya

The purpose of this is for shock value to Christians. I have grown up around fundamentalist Christianity my whole life, and I know that this type of stuff shocks them and outrages them. Note that I am no longer fundamentalist in belief, and I highly respect athiests who respect others and can have an intelligent conversation about what they believe, but stuff like this is no different, as somebody said earlier, from Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or should I say Fred Phelps?

Prodigal

Interesting! Of course such medieval methods of dissidence seem rather odd to someone such as me, who hails from an ex-communist country, where de-christianisation had been reasonably thorough, but I support the effort nonetheless. I don't view it as an outright attack on the religion, but rather as a tool of cultural self-liberation.

I percieve the atheist's goal as being the removal of Christian (in the case of the US) thought, debate, moral values and activism from the political and social mainstream and from the state apparatus. Intelligent Design and outright Creationism are ample proof that public Christianity can be seriously damaging to public education, as are the countless attempts to ban books throughout America.

I am absolutely appaled by some of the statements coming from the Christian right these days, and find the views of the most outspoken conservatives in your country to be completely mismatched with western civilization as it has been for the past 40 years. Sure, we have loonies in the EU as well, but neither religion nor nationalism are as strongly rooted amongst the masses there, and there is an unspoken consensus that Christian doctrine has nothing to do with statesmanship or the wellbeing of society as a whole. I hope that more young Americans free themselves from having to ever read the Bible with a straight face

ngdawg

1)And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
2)The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
3)The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
4)Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
5)And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)




Do you believe that a woman over 400 years old gave birth?
Do you believe a man lived in the belly of a whale?
Do you believe a woman turned into a pillar of salt because she dare to turn around?
Do you believe that the earth and universe were created in 6 days? That one man was created, then a woman from his rib?
Do you believe an old man built an ark that would hold two of every animal/living creature?
Do you believe a man lost his strength due to a haircut?
Do you think people should be 'stoned to death' for crimes against God?

The thing I find most mind-boggling about the religious is that they pick and choose what's 'true' and what isn't. If a man can't live in the belly of a whale, then a man can't die and come back 3 days later. If a 400 year old woman isn't possible, let alone giving birth, why is a virgin birth to be believed?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Charlatan

A virgin birth isn't to be believed. The original texts say that she was a young women. "Virgin" was a bad translation.

But to say otherwise is blasphemy.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ngdawg

I think it was an 'intentional' mistranslation-start with that 'miracle' and keep going...

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.