Do you get Flu shots?
 

It's about that time of year, isn't it?

I used to get flu shots every year, they tend to be free at the places I've worked at. Everyone once in a while I'd still get a flu, but of course you can't prevent every single strain out there.

But for the past couple of years I haven't, mostly because of the vaccination shortages. Now I'm kinda out of the habit. Plus, since I've started taking 1k mg of Vit. C every day, my sick time has been cut by at least 2/3. Maybe more. So I'm not as motivated.

But there are always folks out there who swear up and down that they get the flu from the shots. I don't think that's possible, but I've seen usually healthy co-workers fall ill after getting a flu shot.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I can't remember the last time I had the flu.. ok wait.. I think I was 11. That was also the last time I had a flu shot. I've always thought that if you take medicine or use antibacterial whatever on everything all the time, you just end up with a super germ. I carried the same idea into the flu shots. Knock on wood, I haven't been sick since the last time I had the flu. Sure a small sniffle here or there but nothing major. I never take medicine so maybe that's why? I have no idea.

So in short to your answer. No I don't take flu shots. :)

I get flu shots every year. And yes, now is the time. My local pharmacy is giving them on Wednesdays, from 10 to 1, but I haven't made it yet. And no, I've never gotten the flu from a flu shot. That's not quite possible.

Nope. I don't like the idea of putting mercury or aluminum or formaldehyde or ethylene glycol directly into my blood seems kinda silly. Dunno why, I guess poison just rubs me wrong.

Put me down for plenty of vitimans and minerals, exercise, adequate rest, and such. OJ does more for my immune system than a shot ever can.

Amen Mr. Will. I used to work in a nursing home where everyone not allergic to eggs got a shot every year. Funny thing... they all ended up sick anyway.

Due to vitamins, fresh OJ and the other things Mr. Ravel mentioned I have avoided any type of cold serious enough for me to visit a Dr for a period of 6 years. Food poisoning not withstanding.

Thimerosal, which is a form of mercury, is present in flu vaccines as a preservative in multi-dose vials. The amount used has never been shown to have adverse effects in adults. Some doctors recommend mercury-free versions of the vaccine for very young children, and most all for infants. Aventis-Pasteur makes the only preservative-free (thimerosal-free) version approved in the U.S. for children 6 thru 23 months. However, a single-dose injection made by Chiron Corp. and the FluMist nasal spray vaccine made by a joint effort of Wyeth and MedImmune do not contain any mercury and are available to adults. So, you can get the vaccine and not have that poison you fear so much. :)

But, you know, you guys can ignore the U.S. CDC (Center for Disease Control and Prevention), Britain's NHS, the World Health Organization (WHO), and many other medical authorities around the world and rely on that OJ instead. :)

OJ sounds fantastic, thank you analog.

Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol are poisons. Do you know why there are poisons in flu shots? Doctors give you a little poison to weaken your system, then they give you a little flu to hopefully allow your body to create antibodies. Once you have the antibodies in your system, you are theoretically more resistent to influenza. It's like stabbing youself in the leg with a pencil to prevent a gunshot wound.

Nice analogy will... Add to the list of exercise, vitamins, OJ and so on, washing hands whenever I happen to visit the bathroom, or be near a sink. This seems to help out so much.

The few times I got the shot, were the years I got the flu.

Go figure.

Avoid using antibacterial, unless you need it.

I've had some debates regarding this. I used to have a position similar to will, except without the false analogy. Nonetheless, two highly credible sources, my sister (honours genetics/immunolgy undergrad, current pharmacy student) and my wife (honours microbiolgy undergrad, currently 4th year med student) have convinced me that flu shots and the principles of inonculation/vaccination are sound, and not just theoretical. My mom is a nurse who works in pallative care and an assisted living seniors home also swears by them.

edit- Yes, I get them every year. Could be partly because of my Canadian health care, could be that I live a block away from a hospital, but I get one every year.

I can't tell if you're being crass and making asinine analogies on purpose or not.

I haven't had a flu shot in years, but I got them regularly as a child. I never got the flu until 3 years ago, and I got it again last year. I'm planning on getting a flu shot this year...anything in a flu shot can't be worse than breathing the air in Salt Lake City in the wintertime (anyone who has lived here knows about the infamous inversions). Vitamin C is a good thing, but I'll take my chances with the shot...I never want the flu again...it's horrible.

And on a sidenote...I was always under the impression that vaccination COULD cause illness in someone with an already strained immune system (since a vaccine is an injection of a small amount of the bug)...does anyone know if this is really true?

No way. I considered getting them a few years back. Asked a couple of buddies who are doctors and they didn't take the shots.

I get a flu shot any year I'm planning on doing any kind of work in or around a school.

Schools are breeding grounds for influenza and other illness, and the one time I've gotten the flu has convinced me to get the shot. The people you should be asking if they get shots are teachers. No one spends more time around sick people, seriously. You would be surprised at how sick some kids are when they come to school, and how some parents are fully aware of the fact their kids are sick.

I take a lot of preventative measures besides the flu shot, but for other things, since there is no immunization for the common cold. I am especially prone to sinus infections and strep throat, so I take a daily multivitamin, stay hydrated, and practice frequent handwashing.

Crass, as always. :thumbsup:

I know my analogy stinks, but it made me laugh when it popped into my head. Want a better analogy? Fine.

Let's say the US military were to hire mercinaries to attack a nuclear powerplant. The idea is that it will give real life testing to security measures already in place, but it won't be as serious as an actual terror attack. We give them semi-lethal ammo (rubber bullets, blunt objects like bats or canes, tasers, throwing stars, tear gas), and let them loose. They go in and can really hurt some of our security personel, but at the end of the exercise, we are more ready for an actual attack from terrorists.

The question is: why don't we do this? For the same reasons that flu shots don't make sense. These guys, the mercs and the shots, can do as much damage as the real threats, the terrorists and influenza. A better way to prepare is to keep the facility or your body, in excellent condition. What I said above: lots of fruits and veggies, regular exercise, consistantly good night's sleep, and things of that nature. Our bodies immune system is what will ultimately stop influenza no matter what, so why not have marines in there ready to deal with the problem instead of security personel who have had a little combat experience?

sometimes when you get the flu shot you can still get sick due to the weak strain of the flu that was part of the shot. if you're able to get it, why not go for it since it'll help your body adjust to fight the flu so your body won't suffer as much without the flu shot.

Yet many things are poison in larger doses.

You can get sick from a vaccine, they're supposed to be weakened or inert but sometimes they make a mistake.

And to answer the question, I don't get flu shots. Havn't ever (except maybe as a kid.) And haven't had the flu in over a decade.

There is definately something to be said for healthy living!

A point for Will:
Everyone in the millitary is required to get a flu shot, so yeah, given your theory (weapons aside) our millitary would be really weak at this time of year due to the "poision" in the shot. But they aren't... so hum.

And to follow up Zeph, LOTS of things can be poisionious espically in large doses. Hell, a person can kill themselves by drinking too much water does that mean we shouldn't drink it? No.

Many times vaccinations will have smaller side effects or reactions. I've been vaccinating my horses for years for an illness called Strangles (which infects the lymphnodes and causes them to burst, most times it is not fatal because the main nodes infected are directly between the cheeks or above the eyes) which is not as common of a vaccine as say West Nile at this point. However, dealing with a few days of lethargy after the vaccine is much better than struggling for months with softball sized lymphnodes which finally burst and have to be cleaned, while the horse is kept sedated from the pain. Mind you, the vaccine cannot fully prevent Strangles but if it does not prevent it it lessens the degree of the illness. I have seen this work because my then 23 year old horse (at that age, given that he has cancer and other various problems it is concidered that he has a "weakened" immune system... though you couldn't prove it by his attitude) was stabled next to a horse who broke out with a severe case of Strangles and was weeping puss into his stall. He didn't get sick, so to me the small side effects and the little bit of "poision" I put in him is worth the risk, instead of having him in pain for weeks.

Vaccines have good points and a few falling points. To each their own. Just keep in mind that many times a vaccine cannot prevent the illness 100% but can keep the degree of the illness down. Who wouldn't want that when they're puking their guts out for days on end?

As a person with chronic resp problems since birth, yes I get one..... As a person with hemochromatosis fresh OJ is not an option for me, though I do try to take enuff in supplements to compensate.

There have been two years in the last 5 that I didnt get one, and both times I had a case of the flu that was awful...almost 2 weeks out of work both times.

I've got a call into my Dr right now trying to find out if I can still have one with my surgery coming up in 2 weeks.

Never had one. Not opposed to getting one, just don't make the time for it.

Well, I've not gotten sick after a flu shot, and this:
convinces me that I'm going to make the time and effort for them again.

I don't know why you put the word poison in parenthesis, I think we all know that mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol are poisons. I doubt anyone here would argue that point. Your point is that you're being poisoned only a little, and I agree on that point. There is very little poison in flu shots, but if something is going into my body, I don't really see a need for any poison, espically when any doctor can tell you that being healthy is the best defence against diseases, including influenza.

Hell, vacinations against things like smallpox and diptheria and polio and measles have eradicated these illnesses from developed countries and indeed most of the undeveloped world too, saving hundreds of millions of lives. Vaccines are effective forms of protection against a variety of viral illnesses. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to study just twentieth century history.

Due to the mutating nature of the flu virus, no single vaccine will protect against all strains of the flu, and indeed, a wide variety of other upper respiratory germs float around, expecially in winter that are not influenza but which may be mistaken for same. Often enough, people get one of these after getting a flu jab and think "oh, the vaccine made me sick", when indeed, this is very unlikely. It is far, far more likely that the person has come into contact with anyone of these other infections.

So, at any rate, both the missus and I receive our shots annually, have remained flu free and hope to continue on that way! Not sure about getting the little one innoculated though, the jury is still out on innoculations for the under 2.

That's why in 1918 the flu killed so many people aged 18-40 in the prime of life? They were the prime targets.

Of course, general good health is great, and infleuenza usually takes its greatest toll on the young and elderly, but it is no always so, Will.

Remember that the most important discoveries related to nutrition and human biology all happened in the second half of the twentieth century.

I, too, have members of my family in the healthcare industry and they will tell me the ins and outs of getting the flu shot. I've heard from various sources that the flu shot is a bit of a gamble to begin with because it is designed to predict the next strain of the upcoming season. Predictions related to biology are far from highly accurate. In many cases, flu shots are ineffective because the strain that appears is much different than the strain that was targeted for vaccination.

I myself don't get flu shots because I don't get the flu (and the gamble thing of course, too. I don't see the value in them). Since I was a young adult, I've been sure to take care of myself through diet, exercise and sleep. My immune system has benefited as a result. I've taken a multivitamin at least since my first memories, and I'm guessing this is just one of many factors as to why I don't get the flu.

Not everyone is as fortunate as I am (maybe it's genetics), but I'm guessing there are many things people aren't doing to protect their health and well being. I typically don't get colds or headaches, either. I sleep it off whenever I feel something coming on. "Listening" to your body is important.

My guess is the average 150 pound farmer or soldier from 1918 was healthier in terms of nutrition than the average 240 pound, Big Mac eating, Slushie-slurping, couch potato of the modern era.

Truth be told, the main thinking surrounding the fact that young adults were the big targets of 1918 is that a previous strain may have provided some immunity to the older generation, and due to the fact that so many young men were congregating in army barracks and camps and within industry in the cities and so the virus had many opportunities to infect others. That was the pattern in NA and Europe - it would be interesting to analyze the pattern in the less developed parts of the world which were also infected but which did not have the same congregations of young men and where and earlier strain may not have circulated.

I'll agree that being healthy is optimal. But it's a little paranoid to say "being poisoned only a little" - if it were still poisonous in those small amounts, then they wouldn't make flu vaccines using them. The word "poison" as applied by the science community (including the FDA) is just a classification based on the dose that is lethal or severely harmful. I forget the actual number the FDA uses for the standard, but I think it's something like 50mg or less to be considered a poison. If they use so little of these poisonous substances that they are no longer severely harmful or lethal, and you are still worried about that they are called "poisons", then you are kind of missing the point. Booze and Tylenol aren't considered poisons by the FDA (not last time I checked), but if you consume enough of them (separately or together), you'll find they can be quite lethal.

I have a quotation written in my old biology notebook that applies here:

"Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison".

--Paracelsus, the father of toxicology

But back to the OP - yes, I generally do get flu shots when I have the time, as long as they are affordable and there isn't a shortage (since I'm not elderly or a child).

Mercury:
Aluminum:
Formaldehyde:
Ethylene glycol:
Each of these is extremly dangerous in their own right, even in smal doses. The effects of several can be cumulative, as they stay in your system. What happens after a lifetime of flu shots? We should find out soon, as flu shots are only about 50-60 years old.

I imagine you get more aluminum every time you drink a six-pack than you do from a flu shot, would be my guess.

I've never gotten a flu shot, but this thread provides all sorts of interesting information and perspectives on it. I've never had a free option of obtaining a flu shot, which is why I haven't been willing to get one. My mother and my sister get them every year because they work at schools. Their employer provides the flu shots for free.

Your student health center should offer a flu shot clinic with the shots discounted for students. I would look into it. It probably won't be free, but at the very least it will be cheap.

Thank you Mr. Will for the information you posted. I find it quite useful to be honest and am glad someone took the time to look up those facts. :)

willravel:

Until you post the lethal or toxicity dosage requirements for those contents, along with how much is actually in your average 5ml dose of flu vaccine, I (and anyone else with common sense) don't give a flying shit about your definitions of what are bad for you.

This is the argument you and the other conspiracy sites i've seen are presenting for the flu shot contents:

Did you know that fluoride is bad for you? Yeah, it's a poison. That's why I don't use toothpaste, even though "dentisits" say it's ok to use. I see through the bullshit. If you ingest fluoride, you can get very seriously sick and many people have DIED from it!!

--------------

That's great. But you know why it's full of shit? Because it never mentions the dose requirements to harm or kill a person, nor does it indicate the usual amount found in a single unit of use for toothpaste.

Because if you included actual facts, you'd realize that fluoride is lethal at a dose of 5mg per kg of body weight. Most people would have to ingest almost an entire tube of toothpaste to die from it.

For example: Formaldehyde has been shown lethal at one PINT down to possibly as little as one ounce. (The reason for any large disparity in amounts like that is because if anyone ever dies an undetermined death and has some abnormal chemical in their body, they will attribute cause of death to the only variable they can prove. So, the typical lethal dose may be a lot closer to a pint.) There are 30ml in an ounce. A flu shot is 5ml. There are trace amounts of formaldehyde in a flu shot. Do the easy math. The reason formaldehyde is even found in the flu shot is because the virus is inactivated in formaldehyde, and a little is drawn up with the virus. It's then mixed with saline, which is the bulk of the liquid in the shot.

Do you people see now why it's so dangerous to read things and not question the lack of backing proof? Give the content amounts and lethal dose amounts of those "poisons" and then maybe i'll stop laughing at this conspiracy-sounding BS.

No. My mom used to et them all the time, and she always got sick from it.

So I try to avoid them. I just try to eat healthy and wash frequently... though I'm dieting, and that (seems to) lower your immune system.

Oh yeah, and I drink the Airbourne Formula every morning and night. Does this stuff actually work? A bit expensive, but if it works it's worth it...

Airborne is a giant shot of Vitamin C (1000mg) and some herbal stuff that can't be proven to do anything but drain your wallet. I will sometimes take a 1000mg Vitamin C caplet at the onset of a cold because it does normally help- and you can get a bottle of 100 plain old normal 1000mg Vitamin C caplets for a few bucks, not the nearly dollar a pill or more that Airborne charges.

Also, taking it 1000mg a day (either as a pill or in the form of Airborne) as a regular thing isn't really helpful. The reason they work is because, at the onset of a cold, the sudden 1000mg of Vitamin C gives your body the boost it needs to help overcome the initial action of the cold. Taking it every day like that doesn't mean it keeps your immune system at a higher level, it just means you're taking 1,667% of the normal recommended daily value and you'll pass all that you don't use.

From the Airborne website FAQ section, bolding my own:

I love how they dodge recommending it daily later on, while still asserting that people do take it that way. Funny wording so they can say they don't actually recommend it.

Airborne also contains about 230mg of sodium, which is about 10% of normal daily allowance (based on 2000 calorie diet). So if you have issues with sodium, it may not be a good idea to use it. Ask your doctor if you have issues with sodium intake.

Bottom line, ask a pharmacist or a doctor. That's exactly what my pharmacist tells every patient who asks if it's worth it. We sell a store brand equivalent, so he's actually advising against buying something of our store brand that's much more money than just the Vitamin C pills alone.

yo
Actually, the reason I posted that was so that those of you who get the shots would actually ask your doctor that very question. I'm not 100% sure what amounts of those poisons are dangerous at what dose. Be sure to ask what dose of mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol can be dangerous or lethatl, THEN mention that you're getting your shot.
I have heard that, so I asked a dentist. Aparently the flouride in toothpaste or mouthwash is fine, but the flouride in water supplies is suspect. Go figure, eh? Anyone who is unsure about any of this should take to your doctor. I am NOT a doctor.
It's not full of shit, it's unresearched. Yes, flouride is deadly at 5/1,000,000 (1/200,000...so for me, a 185 pound man, that's approx: .4 grams, or 420 mg of flouride) your body weight. When does it make you sick? Less than 1% of what it takes to kill you. That's less than 4 mg. Think about it.
That's great. But you know why it's full of shit? Because it never mentions the dose amount. It says "trace amounts". So what is the exact measurment of a trace amount?

Wait, wait...
Isn't the effect of formaldehyde cumulitive? Smae as aluminum, mercury, and flouride?

Conspiracy BS indeed.

I'm fairly sure that the shots don't contain any of those substances. Why would they include these - the first two aren't even organic?

I have them sometimes.

I'm sure that I'd be fine without them also. I don't quite buy the idea of them given people the flu either....

For example... I've also had hep A, hep B, tetanus, cholera and diptheria immunizations (plus a few more probably). ... and I've not come down with any of those after the injection.

So why would flu be different?

Mercury (or rather the derivative used) is present in an amount less than 1.25mcg in a single dose (5ml) vaccine. http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/inflgla083105LB.pdf

A lethal dose for mercury for an adult is 1 to 4 grams (g) or 14 to 57 milligrams per kilogram body weight (mg/kg) for a 70-kg person.

So at the lowest concentration of 1 gram per kg, that's 980mg needed to be lethal for a 70kg person. That means you'd need 980,000 micrograms... the shot will only give you 1.25 micrograms. 1% per your "1% will make you sick" formula is 9,800mcg, which means you'd have to get the shot 7,840 times to cumulatively get up to just 1% of the lowest known lethal dose for a human.

Formaldehyde is present in an amount of less than or equal to 50mcg per dose.

Here's putting that into perspective for you:

So the average is between 1 and 20 µg (often written as mcg for micrograms) per cubic meter of air. You get one shot with 50mcg in it, once per year. The average adult breathes 12 to 20 times per minute. How much do you think you're breathing in, on an average day?

I'm sorry to completely fuck over your bullshit conspiracy-theory assertions with facts. Facts will do that, though.

"You lose! Good day, sir!" - Willy Wonka.

1. Formaldehyde. Geneva, World Health Organization, 1989 (Environmental Health Criteria, No. 89).
2. Formaldehyde. In: Wood dust and formaldehyde. Lyon, International Agency for Research on Cancer, 1995, pp. 217–362 (IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of the Carcinogenic Risk of Chemicals to Humans, Vol. 62).
3. Air quality guidelines for Europe. Copenhagen, WHO Regional Office for Europe, 1987 (WHO Regional Publications, European Series, No. 23).

Guess I wont need mine this year, turns out the illness Dave and I have had for the last friggin week IS the flu.

As for anyone that says they dont believe you get sick from the shot...thats your perogative....all I can say is every single time I get it....I get mildly sick, as does my daughter

Analog, a few points:Most people would get warned or even banned for making such a statement, and I don't think the fact that you are a moderator should make you exempt. Even leaving that alone for a moment, I was perfectly clear in my last post that if anyone had any questions they should contact a real doctor. Why would a conspiracy theorist make such a request?! That's like a holocaust conspiracy theorist saying, "Go talk to a holocaust survivor". Think about it. I'm []Inot[/I] a conspiracy theorist for asking questions. I'm not a sheep. There is a big difference between the two.

How much formaldehyde can the lungs take directly into the blood stream? Is it 100% of what is in the air? Or is it more likely that it only takes in a small percentage of what's in the air?

As for mercury, we can get mercury from any of a multitude of sources, and mercury stays in your system. If you eat certian fish, for example, you can get a very large doze of mercury. The question is, how much mercury does the averag person already have in his or her system, and how will the 1.25-5 mcg of mercury do in addition to what you already have? Will flu shots make you more or less likely to get mercury poisoning?

Regarding Aluminum;

Aluminum is wonderfully important and prevalent; the most common metal (as % of amount on earth) and the 2nd most used (to iron).

It has not been shown to have any use by living organisms. However, it has also not been shown to be dangerous. It was linked to Alzheimer's, then that link was debunked. There are a very small (unconfirmed%) who are allergic on a contact basis. Aluminum also may function as a neurotoxin, although that research did not indicate the required levels the basis for toxicity beyond that it appears to change blood-brain barrier. Certainly, as Will quoted, if you already have liver problems and are treated with aluminum contaiminated solutions, it could pose a problem.

That said, aluminum is everywhere. Everyone has had signifcant exposure. I would guess that you consume significantly more aluminum in each antacid tablet than in many flu shots. Or when you used antipersperant. And you were exposed the last time you painted wood, consumed anything from a can, cooked anything in an aluminum pan. Or were near any construction. And even then, the aluminum won't probably won't hurt you, unless you happen to be a very select percentage of the population, and then it might have a chance of being harmful.

I'm not about to search for various sources, I'm 100% confident that if you care enough you'll easily be able to find them. I've done research on aluminum in the past. Using "flu shots have aluminum and aluminum is toxic" is a terribly weak argument.

From post #30
and some additional information from the same link:

Originally Posted by Bossnass
has also not been shown to be dangerous.

From post #30
Quote:
Aluminum toxicity occurs in people with renal insufficiency who are treated by dialysis with aluminum-contaminated solutions or oral agents that contain aluminum. The clinical manifestations of aluminum toxicity include anemia, bone disease, and progressive dementia with increased concentrations of aluminum in the brain.

Conceeded in previous post. People with liver problems treated with x-contaminated solution. You can replace x with virtually anything.

...
Prolonged intravenous feeding of preterm infants with solutions containing aluminum ---is associated--- with impaired neurologic development.

"Association" is a nice catchphrase where a real correlation or proof has not been shown.

Exposure to high levels of aluminum --may-- result in respiratory problems (aluminosis). Inhalation of bauxite (aluminum ore) fumes --may-- cause pulmonary fibrosis. Aluminum in the bloodstream --may-- lead to neurological symptoms and --may-- be fatal.

If you remove the "may"s and that is a scary statement. With them, it may be scary, but isn't.

This thread is really going off on a tangent. I get flu shots because I am convinced beyond doubt that the immunolgy science is proven to work. I agree that preventative medicine is a better course, but I disagree that the princples behind vaccination are flawed.

The second argument that was presented is "well, the flu shots have poison, so I don't take them" is plausible. However, the amounts of said substances do not pose a danger, and such an arguement seems to be grasping at straws. All of the substances have many other larger and more common exposure factors than in flu shots.

I don't have suffcient background to argue against mercury or formaldehyde, although I honestly don't think there is harm presented in signicant amounts of formadehyde. Glycol is bad, but again, it is presented in such small quantities that it is not a danger. You don't drink a bottle of antifreeze to wash down a flu shot.

Finally, I know a fair bit about aluminum. I stand by my previous argument that it has not been shown to be a danger. It is suspected, in unique circumstances, but has not been shown.


(edited to emphasize where I wanted the emphasis)

Its nice to see the mods enforcing the rules (hmm?), and having an orgy of self-proclaimed victory at the same time. Thank you analog.

Sensitive subject?

Yes, I get a flu shot every year, as everyone in my family. My compromised immune system and limited respiratory status, requires me to always get one. If I get the nasty strain that they are trying to prevent, it will kill me. As it is every couple of years I usually get some cold that turns into pneumonia.

From CDC website:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm

Preventing the Flu: Get Vaccinated

The single best way to prevent the flu is to get a flu vaccination each fall. There are two types of vaccines:

* The "flu shot" – an inactivated vaccine (containing killed virus) that is given with a needle. The flu shot is approved for use in people 6 months of age and older, including healthy people and people with chronic medical conditions.
* The nasal-spray flu vaccine – a vaccine made with live, weakened flu viruses that do not cause the flu (sometimes called LAIV for “Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine”). LAIV is approved for use in healthy people 5 years to 49 years of age who are not pregnant.

About two weeks after vaccination, antibodies develop that protect against influenza virus infection. Flu vaccines will not protect against flu-like illnesses caused by non-influenza viruses.

I agree that if your a healthly person, who dosen't get colds and other respiratory illnesses, you probably don't need one. Protect your children and encourage your older parents.

As for mod's leading by example, there isn't much to say!

so true, not a big poster anymore and threads like this are the reason why. thread destroyed......

I understand what you are saying but not all of us are like that. :)

In no way was this statement meant to be an attack:

"I'm sorry to completely fuck over your bullshit conspiracy-theory assertions with facts. Facts will do that, though."

Am I yelling? No. Did I call you anything? No. Did I, in fact, only go after your argument, and not you the person? Yes. Calling your argument bullshit conspiracy theory is not an affront to you, it's an attack on your argument- plain and simple. We've had out the "attack the argument, not the poster" conversation time and time and time again. Ask most anyone who's posted in the Politics forum for a while, they'll tell you how often I've hammered in "attack the subject and argument, NOT the poster".

So, again, does calling your argument bullshit conspiracy theory, after i'd already called on you several times to prove yourself, and you had yet to prove one single iota of the vast array of claims you made... make that an attack on you............. or an attack on the material you're presenting?

It's me going after your assertions. Did I call you names? No. I did not do that, and I would not do that. I said, "prove that bullshit conspricy-theory stuff". Attack the subject, not the poster. I never once attacked you. It's a very long-standing rule of debate here on the TFP.

I have very much enjoyed the entirety of our exchange in this thread, as I love a good debate. I don't know where you're getting any hostility from, i'm really enjoying the ability to share knowledge and engage in conversation. I don't know why you feel attacked, but i'm sorry. :( Maybe I could have phrased it differently, but words are just words. If the ones I chose made you upset, then I'm sorry those words have bad meaning for you, but i'm just having normal conversation.

Again, I'm sorry if it came across as an attack, I apologize.

I wish text wasn't so... pale? I like that. It's just... pale.

I didn't think the playful addition of a whimsical Willy Wonka quote could be taken for an orgy of self-proclaimed victory. It's just a funny line from Gene Wilder. I wish he still did some movies, but he's like 73 now... lived a full life, that guy. heh

I think the amount of cursing, and mood set by your posts gave some inkling towards anger, and hostility.

Be mindful of how what you say might be construed by others.

I never accoused you of personaly attacking me or anyone else. Well I wasn't the only one that thought you were becoming hostile. When I prove someone wrong in a discussion or debate on TFP, I usually move on. Rubbing it in when you think you're right lacks something I have found to be imparitive on TFP and in life: tact. It's not like I was ignoring you. We were engaged in a point by point discussion. Instead of making your arguments, you suddenly say that you "fucked over" my "bullshit conspiracy-theory". Just to clarify: my wife is the only person to fuck me over, and I never put fourth theories about conspiracies. Would you tell your teacher or coworker that you fucked over her bullshit argument? I hope not. I suggested, correctly, that poisons were still poisons no matter the dose. I know that you probably won't get sick from a flu shot, but I made it clear I wasn't comfortable with injecting myself with the poisons, and explained why. I wasn't trying to fool anyone out of taking their shots. I want people to talk to their doctor if they have questions. Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol are still poison, even though the doses they come in flu shots is negligable. I also don't smoke anymore because it's dangerous. Am I going to get lung cancer if I were to smoke? Probably not, but it's possible. It's simply a health choice.

I get colds (coughing, sore throat, achey) alot... like 4-6 times each year. If I'm around my parents and cough a couple times, they'll always say "Why don't you go get a flu shot?" I would always tell them I have a cold, not a flu (by my definition anyways).

Well, one year I got a flu shot. I was sick more often that year than any year I could remember. That was 3 years ago, and I haven't had a flu shot since. However, I don't get sick as often anymor either... maybe twice/year I get a cold. Coincidence? Probably... but there you have it.

Analog, I'd like to know what *does* constitute an attack to you. Is everything OK as long as you don't call someone a name?

No, Will and Chi and brian and brewmaniac were not the only people who thought that you were using aggressive language and very disrespectful word choices in this thread. I am at a loss to understand how you can post something like that, and then be so surprised at the response. The words you decide to use have a strong emotional connotation to the negative, dismissive, arrogant side of the spectrum, and are provocative.

"I'm sorry to completely fuck over your bullshit conspiracy-theory assertions with facts. Facts will do that, though."
vs.
"I can't accept that line of reasoning. You are countering proven scientific data with unquantifiable *emotional* responses..."

Can you see the difference? I can. The first is a flat-out rude taunt. The second is an unemotional statement/response, which is what true debate is based on.

I would also like to know the answers to some of the questions Sultana presented in this post. As far as I know, mods are meant to be rolemodels of behavior for others on the board. If that is the case, the way that this thread has gone is unacceptable to me as a user of this board.

*Trips highthief*

I still say BahHumbug to flu shots...

Then I'd respectfully point out if it's so easy to re-translate it into meaning the exact same thing using different words, you can see why word choice shouldn't be something people hold me over the coals for. If it means the same thing, then it is up to you to "read" it how you want to read the emotion in it.

If you can so easily translate my "strong emotional connotation to the negative, dismissive, arrogant side of the spectrum, and provocative" words directly without losing any of the meaning of the sentence, then why is it so hard to see that this entire ordeal is the product of misunderstanding.

This is just an example: I tell someone to fuck off. There really is no way to say that another way and retain the exact meaning.

But since you can take what you deem to be "proper" words and reconstruct the precise meaning of my sentence.... are we not just discussing semantics? Are we not just falling victim to the lack of intonation inherent to the text-based world here?

Most of all- is it really my fauilt that, through NO intention of my own, my words are being MIStranslated, MISinterpreted as negative and dismissive and such? How can that really be MY fault? While I still very much apologize if anyone saw that in my words, I'd point out that for every person in any thread who has ever said that it came across as negative, I can give you an example of at least one person to match who sees exactly what i'm saying, and how i'm saying it, because they're not reading my words to be mean, or negative, or anything. They understand that a person can speak with conviction and with feeling, having nothing whatsoever to do with disrespect, or attacks. I'm not saying anyone here CAN'T understand that, I just think that when it comes to me, specifically, you simply won't see it.

I'd also respectfully point out that if I took a roster in any thread where this sort of thing has happened, I can easily match up all the same names from all the threads in which this has happened- the "usual suspects", so to speak. It's a simple fact that there are some people who will never see what I write as anything but mean, or nasty, or negative, or an attack. They just never will. I'm not going to name names, that would be terribly inappropriate- but you know who you are.

I do everything in my power to help cater to those who misinterpret what I write, but it seems to no avail. I can't change the entire structure of my writing style because a handful of people misinterpret (and i'm NOT saying you do it on purpose or anything like that) the words I use.

The bottom line is- if another word can be used to mean the same thing, but YOU say MY version is mean, then where does that leave me? Your personal opinion has now made me angry? I'm not angry. Because you deem my words to be x, y, and z, suddenly they just ARE because you say so?

That is why I find it difficult to make everyone happy. No one's ideas are all going to fall in line. Not every person will say "this" means "this" in every case. Many times people read words and "this" becomes "that".

I'd just mention, as i've brought up earlier in this thread, that it is a very long-standing rule of debate in TFP, most notably created and used for Tilted Politics, that it is not ok to attack the person, just the opinion. I never attacked him, and he has specifically said he didn't feel attacked. Some of you are insisting I attacked him, though I adamentaly deny it because I would never attack a person, and he has specifically stated he didn't feel attacked.

So... I mean, there's only one way to say this and i'm sorry, but, the only people who feel it was an attack are those who weren't on the receiving end of what they called the attack, and who regularly come after me for my "tone" in posts. How many times can the same handful of people come after me, attacking me the person in public no less, over my word choice before I feel like I just can't make you happy, and I can't ever speak nice enough for your taste, your preference, your opinion, or what have you.

Side note: If someone came after another member like you guys come after me, throat-first, with your very personal condemnations and how harshly you speak down to me, this would not stand- you'd be asked to take it to private, and keep it civil. I have, however, never squelched a person for voicing against me however they saw fit. Ever. I have never touched a single post of anything ever said against me. Why? Because I'm NOT the asshole you say I am. I'm NOT the bad person you insist I am. I'm NOT the crazy power-hungry, plays-by-his-own-rules whatever else you call me so frequently. I am a good person, dammit. :( I let everyone and anyone take their shots at me and all I ever do is take it and offer my sincere, whole-hearted apologies for upsetting you.

I think Sultana's current signature sums it up pretty well (and I'm not being sarcastic)...

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - Shakespeare, Hamlet

Some people will just always read what I write and see it as bad, no matter what. For that, I am truly sorry- but I can't help anyone with that.

What?!?!?!?!?!

Shut up Sage......

Flu shots are evil! (One must stay on topic) :)
Needles hurt and doctors visits are expensive and time off work is SO hard to come by these days. :) It really isnt worth the effort.

So who has got their shots already and who will abstain from getting them like they would abstain from doin it with a starving rabid pit bull? :D

I haven't chosen to do flu shots because:

1) I am not a member of the most vulnerable populations.
2) We are having another late arriving flu vaccine, and have been asked to save the injections for the very young and the very old.
3) I work alone in a home office and get little exposure to the various bugs that are passed about by human exposure.

Bottom line, my risk for flu is small and there are others that are at greater risk. I will feel the same should there be a flu pandemic.

I plan on getting a flu shot this year. Other years I have either forgotten or there wasn't enough supply (go figure). $25 bucks at all the local pharmacies this year so I'm going to do it. I figure, why not, it's one more level of protection. Besides, people suck. They are always going to work, school, public places while sick, sneezing and coughing on everything then touching door knobs, handles, railings, elevator buttons, money, lecture hall seats - well, everything, spreading their sickness like the inconsiderate selfish jerks they are. Please people, if your sick, stay at home!!! Thanks.

Elph, how come you guys have low supply but we have plenty? Is it state to state? I always thought it was a national thing.

Give us more sick time and fix it so we wont get into trouble if we call off.... give me some more staff at work so if theres a next time they want to admit me to the hospital I dont have to say... sorry I have to open the branch tomorrow.

Then I will gladly stay home and hack up a lung alone. :)

When I get my shot later this month, it will not only serve to protect me but also to protect my daughter who, at two years old, may not receive full protection from the flu vaccine. If all her primary caregivers receive vaccinations (me, my wife, my mum) then the chances of her getting the flu are much reduced.

I think you're onto something there Lady Sage

I will definitely be getting a flu shot in 9 days. Not a chance in hell that I'll be living in a dorm without a little protection.

Well Mr. Jorgelito, I completely agree with you. If I am hacking up a lung I should stay home... unfortunately you only get so many sick days and we all have paychecks and most people I know live paycheck to paycheck and we dont want to be in trouble at work so we all do many things we shouldnt while sick. :(

Last year was a national shortage, but for some reason Washington is either short or running late on the shots. I suspect the state is responsible for ordering the shots, but I honestly don't know. The article in the paper said we wont be seeing any more until November.

My mother got hers a couple weeks ago, and for the first time she became very ill.

When I started at my current job, my boss at the time basically told me that I better be on my deathbed if I called in sick. So, I went to work with stomach flu, regular flu, strep throat, and run of the mill colds. I probably would have been fired if I had taken the necessary recuperation time off for each of these illnesses. The ironic thing is she came down with strep throat about two weeks after I got it...and called out sick. I wish I could take time off when I get sick, because working while sick is absolutely miserable.

Working with the public (and in particular, in the pharmacy section of the grocery store) lends itself to encountering lots and lots of sick people. I do my best to not get sick, and that is going to include getting a flu shot this year.

We are responsible for our own immunity. I never blame other people when I contract an illness. That is the nature of these things, it is easily spread via human contact and proximity, and you can spread these things even before showing any serious symptoms. So how is it selfish if you don't even know you're sick?

And like Medusa said, not everyone has the privilege of taking time off to fully recuperate, especially when the flu can last for weeks.

Please don't be angry at other people for being sick... make all the right decisions to improve your own immunity with a proper balance of nutrition, stress management, and hygiene.

I do, however, accept criticism of those who don't practice these things, especially if they are prone to getting sick. It still amazes me the number of people I notice in public washrooms who inadequately "wash" their hands or who don't even bother going through this ineffective gesture...

I had a bad reaction the first year i got one. Chest pains the whole nine yards, was very scary. I still get them if i get around to it. In Ontario, in most cases as a full time employee you are allowed 10 sick days a year. There are excepts i think for some industries, but it is a standard in ontario. Most companies will pay for half of the days if call in sick.
My employeer pays the full 10 out and tells you to use them if your sick. Stay home if you have cold don't bring it to work is our motto.

Sure, sure, I understand where you guys are coming from but what I am getting at is the largely irresponsible people who know they are sick, then go out in public - to the store, school, work and then proceed to cough, sneeze on everything. In that sense it is selfish. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that people exercise common courtesy, decency and common sense right? If you have the flu, please cover your mouth when you cough or snezze and don't touch things that other people touch too like rails, handles, door knobs, desks, lecture hall seats, elevator buttons etc.

I think corporate America is also catching on to the benefits of having a healthy workforce which is why so many now offer either free or heavily discounted flu vaccinations etc at the office. It makes sense to prevent an outbreak of the flu etc than to have to deal with an inefficient, sick workforce that ends up not being very productive.

Just think, would you like it if you see the barista at starbucks sneezing and coughing all over the place? Or if your waiter at lunch obviously has the flu or something and is still trying to work? Or if you work in an office, I would be turned off as a client if the guy making the presentation was ill.

I think you have a terrible boss if they are going to threaten you like that. I assume they provide excellent health care then if they are going to "not allow" you to be sick. Most of the places I've worked at, the supervisor or boss will send an employee home immediately if they are sick or becoming sick. Even companies like Starbucks give out sick days.

If I was your customer and I saw you were sick, I would complain to your boss that you are sick and should not be working etc.... Especially since she got to take time off. How ridiculous. Maybe she wouldn't have gotten sick if she had let the sick employees recuperate. Sometimes it takes a customer to get the employers to treat the employees civily. In other words, people should be allowed to take the time to recuperate, it will save the company in lost productivity time and sick days. Some people, like your boss can be so short-sighted.

I'm not really angry at sick people per se(my post was partial sarcasm), and I don't get sick much, maybe once a year I will have a headache or cold what-have-you. I do take the neccessary precautions to maintain my health, I wish others would do the same as well. In my opinion, we all benefit.

I appreciate both of your comments and civility.

Alas, there is no such standard in Ontario, my friend, it purely up to the individual companies to determine if one gets any sick days at all, never mind ten.

Red and I got our flu shots yesterday at a local pharmacy.

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/.../fs_leave.html

?

We're talking the difference between being able to take X number of unpaid emergency days a year versus taking paid sick time, as you had mentioned the time being paid for. Paid time off for illness is, unfortunately, not part of employment standards in Ontario.

Who got a flu shot?
 

Did you get one this year? Why or why not? Do you think flu shots are a life-saver or a placebo conspiracy?

Grancey and I got ours on Wednesday, and we get them every year. Since I teach school, it would be awfully stupid not to get one. The first year I ever taught (1985) was the last year I got the flu and the last year I went without a flu shot.

I used to take flu shots when I was younger, but staying healthy is a great substitute for me now. I've haven't had a flu shot in eight years, and have had the flu only once in that time.

Flu shots may be helpful for some, but not for me.

Flu shots not yet available here for a couple more weeks, but we always get ours.

Option not available in the poll: Not yet, but planning to.

Have never had a flu shot and rarely get sick.

I really enjoyed the info in this thread. Thanks for the debate; it's a lot of interesting information and my condolences to anyone who got hurt.


I don't get flu shots anymore. I don't see the need to yank my immune system around every year. I did get the flu when I was younger. It was terrible. I imagined devils dancing around me as I had the feaver in the late night hours.

I looked up this thread now that I have a cold to find any remidies. I took some vitamin C and zinc. I ate some chicken soup tonight too, so I have all my bases covered.

I got mine last week. I did feel kinda crappy for a few days as did most of my coworkers. It's a dead virus, so you're not technically getting "the flu" but most people do run a low-grade fever and get somewhat sick, in my experience. I don't necessarily get it for me... even though I caugh the flu the one year I didn't get the shot and I was miserable for five days. I get it because I work with children with chronic illness and screwed up immune systems. I'll take the couple of days feeling nasty to the guilt over one of those kids getting it because I carried it with me any day. One of my friend's kids caught influenza a two years ago and lost almost half his body weight. He was four... went from almost 30 lbs to a little over 16 lbs. I'd never take the chance that I could do that to an already sick kid.

I found this article interesting. It doesnt encourage me to get the flu shot.

The rest

Nope. If they start giving them out for free on campus, I guess I may get one. Seems unlikely.

I used to get it at work when I worked as a CNA at a nursing home. You don't really want to not get one in a place like that. Those LTC facilities just foster and ferment all kinds of bugs.

Yeah, I'm not gonna waste my time or money.

CDC: Flu Vaccine Ineffective This Year, but Still Worth Having

I spent the last week in Wisconsin and they are in the middle of a nasty flu outbreak that we in Michigan have ingeniously coined "The Wisconsin Flu." It's NOT one of the strains the shot protects against and even the people that got the shot still got hit HARD. A friend of mine was laid up for over a week and almost had to be hospitalized, and she'd received the flu shot. My mother also received a flu shot and ended up getting the flu anyway.

Also, live vaccines (most of the flu shots) are known to often cause some symptoms of the disease they are meant to prevent. It's part of the body's natural immune response to having a live virus enter your bloodstream. My brother got the flu immediately after receiving his flu shot last year. He refused it this year and is perfectly healthy.

Meh, I'll save my money.

In my (educated) opinion, flu shots are for the most part no more effective than a placebo.

You see, the problem is two-fold. First, the makers of the seasonal flu shots have to attempt to predict the strain(s) of the flu that are going to erupt as the season's problematic variants. This is at very best a crap-shoot. Think of this as a really bad version of meteorology.

The second inherent problem is that strains of the flu are very plastic - that is, their 'makeup' is highly subject to change/modification. Viruses and bacteria are (generally) adept at 'communicating' their genetic blueprints and swap identities readily. This is problematic when you design a flu shot since you are sort-of posting 'wanted' photos of pathogens that you anticipate being problematic. The flu has the impressive ability to change its identity very readily whilst maintaining its virulence.

So, considering the two aforementioned points, I see no current advantage to deliberately exposing myself to the flu shot.

I had never got one before until this year. Coincidentally, every winter that I can remember as an adult yielded a sinus infection of epic proportions every 3 months, sometimes lasting two weeks at a time. These sinus infections were bad enough that I'd rather have the flu. When I got my flu shot about 8 months ago, I haven't got a sinus infection since. Hell, I haven't got sick period this winter and that is downright amazing for me. I'd hate to think I was getting a miniflu every 3 months before I got the shot but it sure looks that way.

Probably just a crazy coincidence but I'll be getting one from now on.

I didn't and don't. But I like the "fuck-you for asking" option on the poll, nice touch.

My last US doctor told me he had no faith in them and thought the only people the shot really benefited were the people selling them. He then said he be happy to sell me one. He didn't seem to think they were harmful, just not more more then placebos. Given his advice I opted to save my insurance co. the cash.

I have the flu right now. It sucks.

And no...I didn't get a shot this year.

I don't get flu shots. I believe my immune system will manage itself and if I need help then I'll get it. I also hate shots.

Actually, flu shots use DEAD vaccines. I believe that some alterntative forms of delivering vaccine (i.e., the nasal spray) may use live vaccine.

I would not classify it is a crap shoot - the vaccine makers have largely been successful in predicting the dominant strains each year. This is year they got it wrong and the effectiveness is less than normal. In previous years, they have tended to forecast correctly.

Oddly enough, as to your second point, the comingling of viruses is the very reason that poultry workers in Asia were given standard flu shots a couple of years ago. The fear is that H5N1 (Avian flu) would borrow coding from human flu virus and become transmittable by humans to humans. By keeping the poultry workers free of human flu, they were attempting to stopp Avian flu from encountering human flu and it (H5N1) learning how to move from person to person.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/11/news/health.php

That's my educated opinion.

Well, highthief, there's where it doesn't add up. The pharma companies that manufacture the vaccines make a vaccine for the national supply. However flu variants are dissimilar across the US each year. A flu vaccine may contain virus parts for up to three flu variants, but it's still a guessing game. Even if they guess correctly for part of the country, it's unlikely that they guess right everywhere.

My experience is that, whenever I get a flu shot, I get symptoms bad enough to actually BE the flu, and it is therefore pointless. Here on this deployment we were given a nasal "spray"... actually a viscous liquid we injected into our sinuses. Man, that shit was horrible. I still felt horrible for days after that.

YMMV

I cannot speak to the US situation beyond the statistics that offices like the CDC give out concerning the efficacy of the flu vaccine, which consistently suggest success rates of in and around 70% (except in "freak" years like this one, where success of the vaccine is notably lower).

No. The flu shot has -never- been accurate in terms of covering 'prevailing' strains of the flu.
Not to mention, it is mostly impossible to forecast the spread of the flu due to the amount of travel our populations undergo each year. The last point alone makes 'predicting' what will be the prevailing non-hybridized flu strain will be more or less impossible.

As to your second point regarding H5N1, you should know that the Chinese government is not exactly known for its handling of this situation. By allegedly providing the flu shot to poultry workers, they would NOT have prevented the virus from transforming via transduction. In fact, you could argue that if the workers are provided with (arguably) the more effective live-non competent version of a flu shot, they become a large viral reservoir in which H5N1 could in theory bridge the species boundary. Trust me - it is only a matter of time, as all epidemiologists will tell you.

Viruses change their surface proteins too quickly - that simple. And for this very reason alone I refuse the flu shot.

A good, healthy diet with adequate rest is more than sufficient for the flu season.

Nope. I have so much nicotine in my system nothing can live there. Besides, the only time I ever get the flu is when I get the shot.

You and i both, man.

Ive only been sick 4 maybe 5 times in my life, and i've never been at the receiving end of a syringe packing a vaccine.

Then again, i dont get headaches or hangovers either. i guess my immune system is just one teeny, virus ass kickin' machine.

I'm uncertain if there are NO live intravenous vaccines, but the intranasal vaccine I received was indeed live, as recorded on the label by the manufacturer and affixed to my medical record. :)

Have to say it's ultra cool so see an old post of mine revived. :)

And yes, I got a flu shot this year, and I haven't gotten the flu, even though 80% of my co-workers did. And apparantly used my computer while I was on vacation before going home sick.

I caught a cold, though. Ugg.

Well, as to your first point, you'll have to provide some stats. The CDC, the Canadian health agency, all point to - in general most years - good protection and good forecasting. You'll really need to refute that with similar stats.

As to your second point about China - I believe it was Thailand that innoculated, not China.

I'v never had a flu shot, and never had the flu. It seems my lifestyle just doesn't tend to put me in contact with people who get the flu. Going to get a flu shot would put me around people (doctors and sick people) who do tend to get the flu, and who might transmit it to me.