Downed Pit Lord Argaloth in Baradin Hold tonight. Be prepared to kill this guy about a million times as pugs will be 1 shotting him weekly for the next 6 months. Heroic Deadmines is harder than this guy /sigh.

I totally agree that they should offer at least 1 free character transfer a year.

I do not like, however, free time added. It makes it super easy for hackers. I've had two accounts hacked that way.

So its been awhile since I've said my server, etc. I'm starting anew so far on Feathermoon because that's where my IRL friends play.

I also have two mains on nathrezim and bloody hollow. Anyone on those servers want to friend?

I'd also appreciate a universal friend who knows about all the new changes so I can get caught up, even if we never play together.

PM me for my email to add me.

Seriously? No one wants to chat in WoW?

chat? I'm too busy playing to spend time chatting.

Not good at multi-tasking? I sometimes forget though that most everyone is a slower typist than I. I usually have 3 or 4 sentences between friend responses lol. All while fighting (in PvE at least, PvP not so much).

I can multitask but I'm really concentrating on playing. When raiding in vent I mute everyone that is just chatting about crap. I only want to hear directions not "oh man did you hear..." and "Wow, I just pwned some mage earlier in a BG."

I only chat when doing dailies and questing. Otherwise, I'm only on for raids and daily heroics.

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

Oh and I got my 480GTX OC rig running again last night. If you aren't running a new graphics card you aren't seeing some of the really freaking cool ass water effects they got going on.

I've been pleased with the water effects. They seem to have done a good job getting them to run efficiently. My card is a GeForce 8800 GT.

on the ultra settings not only do they wave, but the reflect buildings, sky, and other objects. My 9800GTX wasn't able to show the reflections. I saw them for the first time last night.

Watch the boat leaving Stormwind in this video.

Yeah, my "recommended" dropped me down to "Good" settings for the most part. I'm fine with that, the game still looks good. I should play around with the settings to see if I can squeeze out a bit more than that, maybe with the water effects at least. I tend to notice that more than other features you'd get beyond the current settings.

Im lucky my computer runs this game on all the lowest settings.

Water effects definitely look nice. I was a little worried when the first screenshots popped up from beta because the static images just doesn't do it justice. Plus I don't think they were missing either Object reflections or Terrain reflections and it just looked odd.

Has anyone tried leveling archeology yet? I've been working on it for months(it seems) and I'm not maxed yet. I'm not nearly as lucky on getting the rare items as my friends were. It's really demotivating to make grey items over and over with nothing to show for it. I shouldn't say I've been completely devoid of cool stuff. I did manage to finish my Fossilized Raptor mount tonight. Maybe that'll motivate me to get to 525 skill tomorrow. :)

I envy you lucky ones with actual graphics cards. I have to run my game on the lowest settings now and I had to use a work around they built into the game that takes away even more graphics just so I don't crash randomly. I can't even see a lot of the boss void zones, so i end up dying...

don't fret even with the graphics cards they changed that to be something so light and hard to see that people with good cards still die.

Yeah if you have your graphics turned up to max you still die because there are so many friendly textures and lights on the ground that it hides the bad ones.

At least there's something there for you guys to try to see. Certain things just aren't there for me.

Like the second boss in The Throne of Tides. I have to constantly run around while I tank him just to make sure I stay out of his aoe because it is simply not on my screen and by the time I realize I'm dying from standing in it, I'm dead...

Eh, finally going back to a good server with a good guild, just got approved today. Thank goodness, 85 was already making me cry with only pugs to look forward to.

eh so why doesn't anyone want to friend me :(

I have not been playing too much, hitting 85 and getting sick of pugs fast will do that to you. So just back to playing the alts now and raising my tradeskills.

Any questions you have Zeraph you're better off posting here, I don't know about anyone else but I'm still leery about their implementation for cross server and character chatting. I don't want to give my e-mail address/account name out to anyone I don't trust and know outside of the interwebs!


Punk, that reminds me of back when I played EverQuest in the early days on an unsupported video configuration, at least 50% of the textures were flat gray for me for a loooooong time!

Ok, question.

Fastest way to level? I'm playing a 31 druid feral dual spec healing. I'm thinking DF (cause healers get in so quick) but then I don't get to see the changes in the world.

Everyone has their own preference for leveling, but Dungeons mixed with questing while you are queued is probably going to be the preference. Even straight leveling through PVP experience is viable now according to my one friend who leveled a character that way. Myself I've been through the dungeons and done em all a million times. I'll do them once for the quests while I'm leveling but otherwise see all the new zone changes and quest everything out. It all comes down to what you really want out of the game... is getting to the max as fast as possible to you to meet up with some friends or would you rather see more of what the game has to offer while leveling.

Also keep in mind if you play on a PVP server, DF is going to be much less of a hassle, alternately if you play on a PVP server you may not see random world PVP as a hassle!

I think questing and then doing the dungeon quests is the fastest. since they have raised quest xp rewards like 19 times.

definitely the questing and dungeons. I can't believe how fast people can level now to 80. It's absolutely crazy.

I started playing the werewolf character.

Its quite an interesting story, although all the humans from this city speak pretty funny.

I have only played for a couple of days up to level 10, but I would definitely like to know who would do this to me? curse me to be a werewolf?

These Forsaken pricks seem to me to be straight clowns and not capable of masterminding it. Hopefully it will become a part of the story to deliver a definite and final treatment of death to the man responsible, Maybe it was this fucking dragon who smashed up SW?

what if it was a woman? where would your raging hatred lie then? women can't be evil! can't ever hurt a woman!

The worgen curse is very old lore wise and has been revisited several times in the course of WoW's history until the most recent explanation. Read the history section here for a brief run-down and if you still have questions I may be able to fill in any blanks....

Worgen - Wowpedia - Your wiki guide to the World of Warcraft

Blizzard wouldnt make a major villian female I wouldnt have thought, as most of the people who play are probably male and wont want to kill a female enemy.

Lady Sylvanis is behind the attacks on the worgen...

She's the leader of the forsaken. She tells them what to do.

She's eeeeeeeeeevviill. With a capital E.

UGH. I don't even know why I bother responding to anything you say. You're so in your own little world its crazy.

Lady Sylvanis isnt exactly a villian

She is someone who protects her people by any means necessary - including some questionable ones.

When they cured me they told me that a night elf druid created the worgen curse... it was more a case of who spread the curse to Gillneer (sic?)

If it was Lady Sylvenas she must have had a good reason to do it, and the real treachery probably lies with King Greymane who provoked her to it.

Did you just blame the victim? And how is invading a peaceful people protecting her own?

Sylvanas was the Horde general in the conquest of the formerly isolationist Gilneas. And by our contemporary standards, she's also a war criminal and has committed crimes against humanity with her use of chemical weapons.

She is a dark, vile sorceress who has cruelty in her heart and a corrupt desire for power.

Tell that to the people of Gilneas...

Spoiler: At the end of the worgen starting area you watch her go directly against the orders of Garrosh and tell her general to use the chemical weaponry against the people of Gilneas. The chemicals turn any living thing they touch into undead. Since the forsaken can't procreate, she's using the weaponry to create more followers for herself.

The worgen curse was originally created by the druids of the fang, but the forsaken hostility is all to blame on Sylvanis and the Undercity.

Well, I am not claiming she is an innocent princess, but this is a bit strong.

She does what is necessary to free her people from slavery to the Lich King, and then to protect them from a world that would exterminate them simply for what they are.

But at what cost? She is beyond redemption.

Well then, she is like the lInquisitor in Ivan Karamazov's story then in that case. Casting herself into sin to save and redeem the people.

Those who think that wars (against massively superior forces) can be fought by fine, moral standards and tender kindness had best prepare themselves for slavery or death!

She fights by any means necessary to protect the freedom of a people who are surrounded by forces that think thay are unfit for "life" and should be liquidated. If she did not make hard choices then the undead would be crushed. SHe might have done things that are monsterous and evil. She doesnt live protected by millenium old magic or massive stone walls like these characters who can afford to condemn such things (ie the elves and humans)

The more I read about Sylvanas, the more evil she becomes. She might try to justify it as trying to save her "race" but she's only ever had revenge on her mind. Now that she has Val'Kyr under her command she has an unlimited force and no longer needs the Horde. I can't imagine she's going to come to her senses and quit using the Val'kyr and the new plague. She's got some really scary weapons in her arsenal right now and neither the Alliance or the Horde are safe from them. I'd say the next expansion has some really devastating consequences in store for Sylvanas and maybe the entire forsaken faction.

If you're curious about her entire story I'd suggest reading up on wowwiki.com.

So for rogue weapons, mutilate spec, is it still go for the highest dmg, not the highest DPS? Or did they change that? Or high dmg one hand, fast dagger in the other for more poison procs?

The one person she wanted revenge against (Arthas) is dead, she did not deliver the killing blow, Fordring did. She too, will begin the cycle of misguided rage against innocents.

Ah so arthas is permanently gone from the game now? I can't experience that raid anymore?

Unlike Hakkar and the rest of Zul'Gurub you can still fight and kill Arthas.

What happened to those two?

They were removed from the game when the Shattering occurred.

I hope Arthas is still in the game

I have not yet had the opportunity to slit his throat, which I wish to do on the basis of imfamous and outrageous crimes and indignities he committed against me when I had a Death Knight character.

He, through some minion of his, forced me to murder the lady that looked after me as a small child.

Once I have killed him I will use the "dance" emote function and quite literally dance on his corpse.

I hope you play on a roleplay server lol it'd really fit you.

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

Can someone give me a nice summary (like 2-4 paragraphs) of what happened in northrend and cataclysm?

Zeraph, My rogue friend says highest damage with a fast offhand for muta is best.

Its funny what you can do if you look a bit at the mechanics of the game.

Someone advised me to increase my agility to do more damage...and since I did with the same gun I am doing almost double the damage.

The main thing that is a lot easier on hunter is cos I dont use mana I can just use "heal pet" all the time. It makes single enemies miles easier to deal with, even an elite guy the same level or one higher than me... just send in my owl to fuck him up while I blast him from a distance with the nature poison sting.

The thing I most miss is the spell that cast a storm of arrows that hit multiple enemies all at once, and also the ability to have spirit bond skill without having the animal handling spec... because I liked that I healed so much faster than everyone else.

_

I know everyone has their favourite class. I tried warlock as its supposed to be like hunter but more damaging but didnt like it. Hunter is the one I like playing best. After that Paladin (or Mujahideen as I like to think of my Paladin as)

Yeah Arthas, in lore, is now dead. In game, outland and northrend are in different time periods, They did talk about adding portals to outland and northrend to caverns of time after giving those areas a "cataclysm" treatment, but they realized in order for those areas to be relevant they would have to retool the entire storyline of those zones again.


it's bizzare, you literally go BACK in time depending on your playthrough. DK's have to have the most confusing timeline. "Arthas is alive!"
*enter capital city in current cataclysm content*
"Arthas is dead!"
*level through outland, make it to northrend*
"Arthas is alive!"
*leave northrend*
"Arthas is dead!"

I got the Phosphorescent Stone Drake the other day. It's the purple one from the Ultra rare spawn in Deepholm. It's pretty badass but like the other ones, it's bugged and instead of actually being on the drake my character floats under it.

Are they bugged or are they meant to look like they're carrying you around with their claws?

who wants to fly a dragon anyway? My Griffin is fine...

Are you kidding me? It's a freakin' dragon!

Okay, yeah, I hadn't actually seen the bug yet. I had only heard about it. That is definitely a bug...

I hate those friggin dragon mounts. For one because I don't have one :P But the other main reason is there always landing in front of my camera or on the mailbox. ><

I heard that they weakened Hogger in the new update. Thats lame.

Hogger was always like the ultimate enemy at the level you have to fight him... he chased me all the way to Duskwood multiple times...

Naw, the toughest for the level, was the captain in dire maul, that's bypassable with a quest. But if you take him on he does aoe fear every 10 sec or so and summons adds. Plus you can be feared into adds behind him. Very hard now that dwarf priests don't get fear ward as a racial priest ability (at that level, I know its universal now).

Recently releveing a druid, it took my group like 6 tries. And we barely made it.

If you did the What a long strange trip it's been achievement you get a dragon mount in your mailbox. It takes one year from start to finish and all you are doing are the holiday quests. If you missed doing the Christmas quests, you'll have to wait until next Christmas, but if you have all of them BUT the Valentine's day ones... it's coming up!!!

Didn't bother with the christmas quests :( wish I knew this :(

I can't remember if I've said this before, but I really wish old/original accounts got some kind of achievement just for playing so long and supporting them in the beginning. I played beta, and played opening day. But got nothing except hard, crowded, buggy leveling for my troubles.

There's lots of things that you should have gotten as achievements as being original players. There's feats of strength for having the quest to open up MC. Many of the original quests were able to get you close to being Loremaster if you finished it pre-cata. After cata launched they reset the tables and you have to redo all the quests again.

there's no real way for Blizzard to get all that information out front and center. You've got to take a little responsibility and read the news that gets generated. I read MMOChampion because they are really current and cover everything. There are class related places like Warcraft Hunters Union.

I don't read them daily but I read them regularly.

Also if you got a 310 flying mount BEFORE cata, you didn't have to purchase the flying mount speed upgrade, it went to ALL your flying mounts. I found this out by reading MMO.

Meh, that's still not much of an incentive for old old players to come back.

So can someone explain to me archeology? Whenever I hit it it says can't do that here. I'm guessing I need to find low level spots to level it up, but I don't know what to look for.

Meh. Dragons are a dime a dozen now. The upped the drop rate from the sholazar egg and you can always get some bored 85s to blow through culling of stratholm for the mount or zerg Sarth with 3drakes up for that one.

re: archeology. zoom out to the map and look for little hammers in zones. zoom in there and there is a red circle where you go dig. and dont bother solving any till you have 100 skill. you quit getting skillups from digging at 100

It's true, there are a lot of Drakes but there's still some pretty rare ones that I'd like to have. The Azure Drake from Maly and he Onyxian Drake are two of my favorites from WOTLK. As for the Stone drake, It's not my favorite color. I'm not a fan of the green and purple. I really love the the Volcanic Drake though. I'm only 3 achievements away too. I will say that the attention that mine gets is awesome. I probably get 2-3 whispers an hour asking about it. I guess that happens when you have the only one on the faction(server?).

I'm such a mount whore..

So replaying from 1-60 was fun. The new quests are good, you can tell they've learned from their past. Sometimes though you'll run into an obvious zone that hasnt been changed, I suggest DF for those levels. But simply exploring the old world and seeing all the damage that's been done, is neat. The 60s are taking a bit, but still faster than they used to be.

If anyone wants to reroll to experience the new 1-60 reroll feathermoon! I'll help ya out.

Oh, the other thing, money seems easier to make. I'm 64 now and have made 5,000g. Whereas my rogue and warlock that are the same level and leveled to 60 before BC then played for a few levels after BC only had around 500g. Not sure what the difference is. The money drops seem to be the same. I only sold one epic for 400g. So I dunno if that's actually changed, maybe I've just gotten better at playing the auction house.

But I have a friend who has an amazing mind for the WoW market. He literally earns about 5-8k a day!

Gold is extremely easy to come by now. I honestly don't know how the economy hasn't completely collapsed yet. The AH isn't too hard to play. I just focus on a couple of things and do really well. For the last week or so I've been buying Zephyrite, Jasper and Nightstone when they're cheap and on days when the JC daily requires you to cut 3 of one of them, I can sell all that I've bought in the last few days for 3-400% profit.

I'm like one days playing away from getting to level 85

But I did a couple of the cataclysim dungeons and I was so weak compared to everyone else. I did like 6% of the damage or something

All my gear is above level 300, and I even changed my pet from an owl to a wolf to try and bring more damage to enemies.

All my trinkets add to agility and a lot of my armour does as well now...

I get through the quests absolutely fine and I can take on enemies from the horde ok if they are similar level (and if I shoot first!)... but I always suck in dungeons and battlefields. Maybe I just dont use the special shots in the right order.

Well my guild is 9/12 on bosses now and I have to say they really kicked up the difficulty of the end of instance bosses. We've gotten Cho'gall down below 20% a few times, but Al'Akir and Nefarian have both kicked our asses pretty hard. I'm not a huge fan of how the new heroics play, but I think they've gotten the raid tuning to a much more fun level this time around, with a ton of really fun mechanics to learn.

Cool FB, We're only 4/12 right now because we can't get our raids formed. Our flakiest people are playing our most important classes heh. None of the fights have been too demanding on me as a tank though.

make love, not warcraft
 

I played warcraft for about a year and a half as an alliance boomkin druid. When cata came out I just got tired of the rat race, it seemed like I had to start all over again getting gear and the best pets and mounts so I could keep up with the Joneses.

So i sold my account for a measly $175 bucks at playerauctions.com


I miss Everquest :)

Not sure what type of server it is.

I hit lvl 85 now. The problem is I dont know what mission you have to take to kill Arthas. Might look it up on google.

Also - Ive been thinking on those people talking shit about Sylvanas....

Has anyone noted that the king of Gilneas is called "Greymane"

Now think about it... the guy just "happens" to "innocently" be turned into a werewolf (and all his people) by the Forsaken. And its a coincidence his name is "Greyman" and he gets turned into a grey coloured animal with a mane.

Is anyone buying it? Does that sound realistic to you?

Wait till the next stories come out and I think we will find Sylvanas is innocent and Greymane is guilty?

Sylvanas innocent of atrocities she wouldn't deny and Greymane guilty of defending his people? What? How?

Just look at Greymane's name. Why would a normal man be called Greymane? It is only a name that someone who was ALREADY a werewolf would assume. We can assume that he was a werewolf all along, and he is throwing the blame at Sylvanas to prompt his notoriously isolationist people into war.

The status of Greymane as a worgen has little bearing on the actions of the Forsaken.

If Greymane is guilty of anything, it's his decision to not help Lordaeron, which may have stopped the Scourge from reaching their borders. It may have prevented his decision to release the worgens in the first place.

Sylvanas, however, is beyond redemption in her conquest of Gilneas. You cannot be proven innocent when you are clearly guilty.

who definies "guilt"?

The supposed victim of the werewolf curse is himself (or at least is very likely to be) already a werewolf. This doesnt make you question the story of the events given by Gilneas?

You accuse Sylvanas of making the Gilnean's werewolves... ask yourself, how are her interests served by making the human bigots who wish to hunt her people out of existence into superstrong, supervicious, animals?

Why would she do something so against her best interests?

Facts. She's guilty of the conquest of Gilneas. That is, unless you don't believe that conquest is evil, in which case, it's "just business" or the Gilneans "had it coming."

The curse is still a curse. Even if Greymane had it the whole time during this storyline, he's still a victim of the worgen curse. But, again, this is beside the point if we're analyzing the actions of Sylvanas.

I'm not accusing her of making them into the worgen; I'm accusing her of invading and attempting to conquer Gilneas. And she has a history of using biological weapons—the Forsaken Blight—which is so terrible that even the Horde warchief ordered her to stop using it, and she refused.

Regardless of whether it's in her interests or not to attack Gilneas, it's in her direct interest to conquer Gilneas to redeem herself with the Horde after the events at Wrathgate.


I find it difficult to accept your having so much sympathy for someone who resorts to actions that are no less than a reprehensible atrocity. The fact that she's under orders does not absolve her of her guilt.

---------- Post added at 04:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

Also, you know very well the Gilneans were isolationist. They weren't "bigots who wish to hunt her people out of existence."

1, conquest is not necessarily good or evil - it is neutral. Duke William of Normandy is known as the conqueror, but he is probably the historical individual I admire more than anyone else (and I am not saying that to get a reaction - its true). The conquest of Poland by the Nazi's and Soviet's I would call evil. The conquest of Germany by the US, the Soviets and the UK/Empire forces I would describe as good.

The FACT is that the Forsaken are surrounded by the Scarlet Crusade who do not think they are fit to exist and wish to wipe them off the face of the earth. Sylvanas has had to take necessary actions to defend her people.

2 - It is relevant because I believe that Greymane is implicated in spreading the curse through his kingdom

3 - Sylvanas is an ALLIED to the Horde, she is not the Vassal of some hare brained orc warchief who turns his back on his people to join a bunch of hippies who sit around and worship nature at the first sime of trouble. There is no reason for her to obey anyone. Her chief desire is to protect the forsaken, and she co-operates with the horse insofar as they have common enemies, thats all.

4 - All acts of war are atrocities when viewed in a purely human sense. But you either defend yourself or die.

For example, there is a case where William forced a whole town to surrender by cutting off the hands and feer of 32 prisoners in full view of them. Some would say this was an atrocity. Some would say that this brutality spared the lives not only of his own men but the conquered as well. The same argument was used about the use of atomic bombs against Japan. Sylvanas does not hesitate to use any means at her disposal to defend her people. This is not inherently evil. She simply is in a desperate situation.

Sylvanas isn't defending her people here, she's following orders from the Horde. She's engaging in conquest because the Horde wants a fucking port. It has nothing to do with the Forsaken directly.

But this still has no bearing on the actions of Sylvanas. Though it could be argued that it in the end helped the Gilneans thwart the evil onslaught.

So she chooses the path of evil. I agree with you, but it doesn't help your case.

This is what the Gilneans are doing. The Forsaken are not at risk in this conquest. They are the aggressors, and they are fighting merely for redemption and to conquer land for the Horde.

But she's not defending her people, she's using them to fulfill the desires of the Horde. She's doing it for power, not in defense. Since when is an invasion a defense? The Gilnean's were probably the least threatening people to the Forsaken in their isolationism. The Horde became opportunists when they saw their wall had fallen.

Are you saying that the Gilneans are merely lambs for the slaughter for the survival of the Forsaken?

It would be like saying it's okay for Iraq to conquer Kuwait to ensure their continued security in the Middle East. I don't buy it.

The Forsaken are the aggressors via the Horde. Gilneas are the ones defending themselves. Which side would you have supported when Germany invaded Poland?

Evil is as evil does.

Oh you mean in trying to save the world from being torn in half? Yeah...you know absolutely nothing of the lore and are just making ridiculous shit up in your own mind. I'm a fan of Sylvanas' story and character but the nonsense you are spewing is insane. If you have any interest in not sounding like ignorant, maybe you should read the lore more or maybe some of the novels (I haven't read the novels but I know the plot for most of what happens).

Also, yeah you go find that quest to kill Arthas. See how that works out for you. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Baraka, the only thing I will say, though, is that Sylvanas does seem to have a lot of her own intentions that aren't necessarily of interest to the Horde.

Here is a really good read up about Sylvanas' lore in Cataclysm (lots of spoilers):

Know Your Lore: Sylvanas Windrunner, part 1
Know Your Lore: Sylvanas Windrunner, part 2

Yeah, I realize that, but have focused on this particular part.

you can read up on greymane here, they have a nice lil short story.

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Features - [t]Leaders of the Alliance: Genn Greymane

I am playing my first forsaken character now my night elf is at level 85, and I already know enough about the half-orc hare brained Warchief (believe his mother was an ogre?)

At level 12 I reported to a location at Silverpine and witnessed this so called "warchief" call Sylvanas a bitch and insult her outrageously. I tried to strike him with a shadow bolt bot got "invalid target" error. The craven loutish half orc than ran away after I targeted him with the chicken dance emote.

I certainly will ensure that I slay Arthas. I might look up tonight on one of the wow guides on how you get to him and kill him. I hope that I can keep his "frostbane" sword or whatever so I can pass it to someone with enchanting skill so they can disenchant it - I feel this that casting aside the sword that conquered his soul like a piece of trash will be a fitting epitaph for this coward.

What do you think of THIS then??

from wowpedia.com

It is Greymane the Wicked who is the betrayer of the people of Gilneas, not Sylvanas!

I already brought this up with you. I already addressed this. I said myself that if Greymane is guilty of anything it's not helping Lordaeorn fight the Scourge, which likely lead him to make the decision to release the worgen.

When he did release the worgen, he had hoped it would save his people, but it backfired. This is something that weighs heavily on him morally.

The biggest mistake was his decision to isolate his people. He didn't betray them; he made a mistake trying to save them and now he shoulders that burden. That's not betrayal; that's taking responsibility as any noble leader would.

Are you suggesting that Greymane's decision makes it okay for Sylvanas to conquer Gilneas?

Sylvanas didn't invade Gilneas to liberate it from "the wicked" Greymane. She invaded it to subjugate if not destroy the Gilnean people. She's after their land in the name of the Horde.

It is clear though that Sylvanas does not do ANYTHING simply as a blindly obedient member of the horde. She takes orders from nobody and her alliance with the orcs is only temporary for as long as it is in her own interests,

She has attacked Gilneas as a necessary measure to secure her people's safety and future. Nearly every other group in WOW believes that the undead do not have the right to exist. Even the horde allies are revolted by them.

If the worst thing you can accuse her of is leading an aggressive war, she is no better or worse than most of the other leaders. Powers are constantly shifting, aggressions is everywhere... Sylvanas struck before she was struck against. The methods she used maybe ruthless, but hardly comapre to those of Greymane the Wicked. She offered free will and choice to the undead. When you start to play it is made clear again and again that you have free will, you and no one else if forced to join. Greymane the wicked turned his people into wild beasts because of his own stubborn pride and refusal to work with the alliance.

This makes her subserviant to the Horde and at the mercy of their whims, apparently. She will gain nothing directly in her vile and merciless actions against the Gilneans.

Okay, she didn't merely attack Gilneas, she unleashed an toxic onslaught that does no less than reveal her pitiless nature and dark heart. She made many innocent Gileans suffer horrendous ends, all the while destroying swaths of land in ways not seen since the Scourge.

You suggest the Forsaken have a right to exist. Pray tell, are the Gilneans afforded such a right as well? Or are there mere lambs to the slaughter for what seems to be Silvanas' insatiable quest for power?

Gilneas was no threat. At all.

You fail to understand the history of Gilneas and the nature of the curse. Is this why you seem to be an apologist for an evil aggressor who deserves no less than the hangman's noose or the executioner's axe?

Now I know you are just winding me up.

The Forsaken "subserviant" to the Horde? "at the mercy of their whims"?

Thats laughable to be honest

Their are three powers in the Horde - The Forsaken, the Orcs, and the Blood Elves. The Goblins are nothing but a bunch of spivs and swindlers who would run a mile from a fight with anyone.

If it came to it, Sylvanas could triumph in single combat against Garrosh the Brainless and Thrall the Half Orc on her own, and if it came to a war within the Horde the Blood Elves (who naturally are enemies of the Orcs) would fight with Sylvanas.

Do you really supposed the powerful magic and skill of the Blood Elves, combined with the near limitless resources of the Forsaken and under the leadership of a military genius (even Sylvanas' worst enemies acknowledge she is this) could not triumph over the Orcs and a few talking cows and drug addled trolls?

_

You know for yourself this is true: Sylvanas does NOTHING at the whim of others and is subserviant to NOBODY. Every act - whether it is morally right or wrong - is in the interests of her people and their protection.

I repeat, her people are threatened at every corner. The Gilneans may not have started this war, but their attitude to the undead is as negative as anyone else. As the Traitor Greymane the Wicked had already through his pride made half of his nation into wild beasts that roamed the area attacking anyone and everyone, it was NECESSARY for Sylvanas to occupy the lands of Gilneas to protect her people from the ravages of the werewolves which you admit that Greymane the Wicked had created.

Uh, Thrall is way way way more powerful than you give him credit for.

It hasn't happened yet but mark my words, He will be the future dragon aspect of earth to replace death wing.

Thrall might be powerful in terms of his earth magic - from his half ogre side I admit he has an intrinsic and unthinking intuation for nature, but there is no way he is more powerful than the blood elves best magicians.

As a warrior and a general, he isnt in the same league as Sylvanas - thats my point.

If this were true, then why is she doing the Horde's bidding? She has no use for Gilneas from the perspective of the Forsaken. Her belligerence against Gilneas brought on the help of the Alliance. So if anything, Sylvanas betrayed her own people by proving to the Alliance that the Forsaken don't deserve to be left alone and are a threat to Azeroth---all on the orders of the Horde. Why do the bidding of the Horde at the detriment of her own people?

She carries out the orders of the war chief because she is a selfish, power-hungry tyrant who will stop at nothing to exact revenge for her personal grievances. She hopes to gain favour within the Horde as a way to increase her own power. Whether this means bringing torment down upon innocent Gilneans or risking the very existence of her people matters not to her. To her, the Forsaken are mere pawns and she is their queen. They are expendable to her. She has a one-track mind, and she's only concerned about looking after number one. She is probably the most selfish leader amongst the Horde, especially considering her fragile (i.e. selfish) allegiance to them.

She will betray anyone to fulfill her own personal desires. She is fuelled by rage and is consumed by self-centeredness.

As I said: if she were worried about the survival of her people, she wouldn't have given cause for the Alliance to move against her. Sure, the Alliance already had a negative view of the Forsaken, but all Sylvanas has done is proven it true. It is Sylvanas's fault that the Alliance now views the Forsaken as an active and belligerent threat that seeks to destroy the Gilneans.

Her missteps are far more disastrous than anything Greymane did. At least it's clear that Greymane cares for his people. I think Sylvanas is no longer capable of caring for anyone but herself and her quest for vengeance against anyone or anything.

She is filled with blind hatred.

You need to stop making things up if you want anyone to take you seriously. Learn some lore if you are interested in people not dismissing your BS. Thrall is leaps and bounds more powerful than Sylvanas. And really? the Blood Elves? Just stop.

Attacking Gilneas isn't what makes Sylvannas evil though. There is a war going on after all. What makes her evil is that she's using the new plague in her attack against South Shore and attempted to use it against Gilneas after it's use was banned during the Wrathgate.

I still don't get how the Worgen are accepted into the alliance so easily though. I mean they separated from the alliance years ago and the alliance just lets them rejoin knowing they are cursed? Why wouldn't they let the Forsaken re-join when they broke the Lich King's hold on them.

What do you think I am making up?

The fact that he is half ogre? I dont need to read the "lore" to make this judgment.

Just look at the big lummux. He is about twice the size of other orcs. About the size of a small ogre. His ogre blood also explains his affinity with nature magoc.

However, only his own personal mental weakness can explain his decision to resign as war chief to serve under the night elves in the earthen ring.

Seriously SF, it's time for you to have a long, long night reading wowpedia. It's cool you get into the story of the game so much, but it's a little frustrating for you to repeatedly and deliberately contort lore to suit your perceptions of the game world.

Thrall is currently the most powerful shaman on the entire planet. His channeling at the Maelstrom is, along with Muln and Nubundo, literally keeping the world from being destroyed. It's also fairly clear he's going to be granted powers beyond anything any prior mortal has achieved when he becomes the next aspect of earth later in this expansion (the only other mortals who could claim to have gained even a shred of this much power are Arthas and Ner'zhul, both of whom paid for it with their souls). Finally, he is larger than PCs because of game design reasons, not lore reasons. His father was Durotan and his mother was Draka, both full blooded, normal orcs. He's a bit of a Mary Sue for Chris Metzen, sure, but I guess you're allowed to do that when you design lore as epic in scope as Warcraft's.

Diverging from the other stuff about Sylvannas, I'm extremely interested to see what the consequences of her "death" and subsequent "resurrection" at the hands of the val'kyrs will be. I get the distinct feeling we're not dealing with the same Sylvannas anymore, which is probably a good thing, since that one's storyline ended rather pointed with the end of Arthas.

You think Sylvannas is going to get killed?

I know the current mechanics of stuff in the game won't support it, but I'd like to see the forsaken split from the horde to form a 3rd faction. A quest chain would allow any player to swap to that faction, becoming undead versions of their race. Undead Tauren, Undead Orcs, Undead Gnomes... etc... Like I said though, mechanics like battlegrounds just don't support it. Oh well, It's just wishful thinking.

First - Muln Earthfury is the leader of the Earthen Ring, not Thrall

Second,Thrall's people have committed far worse atrocities than the Forsaken. The orcs are a savage race who delight in war and plunder.

Third, You must consider that the "lore" is like any other narrative, in that it is influanced by those who are a part of it. Perhaps what we know about Thrall is sometimes what he wants to portray. To me it seems very likely that Thrall's is half ogre rather than "he just happens to be 3 foot taller than any other orc, because its a game and thats the way it is"

Ummm, now you must be talking out of your ass because that's not congruent with anything. Thrall isn't the author of the lore. Characters don't get to have a say in what their history is. That would be like saying Darth Vader has influence on how he comes off in the books, movies, and the rest of the canon.

The backstory is something meticulously written and maintained because it has a long standing history that predates WoW.

Tu quoque?

Actually, I have noticed this with many of the epic/heroic (or whatever you want to call them) NPCs in the game. They are much bigger, even the humans. It's not that the humans are actually half-giants, but it's that---in the cartoony style of the game---they have a "big" stature in terms of their power and "epicness."

If Thrall were born of half-ogre, it would be blatantly obvious and Durotan wouldn't be considered his father.

You also seem to be unfamiliar with the ogre magi, who are ogres with much higher intelligence than is average for their race. These ogres tend to have blue skin and usually favour sorcery over other types of magic (such as shamanism).

Again, go to the lore. Your experiences based on what you see onscreen is misinterpreting what's actually true.

For example, you know that Sylvanas is an expert at demon magic, right? Don't you find necromancy and mind control a wee bit unbecoming?

Well, anyone can say "its just fiction" - but I wouldnt get any pleasure out of the game if I just ran around killing 10 of a certain type of monster over and over without getting into the story.

You would admit that even fiction can mis-lead us, give us false clues, try to hide sudden twists in the plot, and even ignore its own history and retrospectively re-write things done in the past.

The current "lore" is not definitive, it is flexible.

Whether Thrall is really a half orc or not - I interpret him as such. He and his brainless horde of hooligans will not stand against the united forces of the blood elves and the forsaken if there is a civil war within the horde, this I am pretty sure of.

I like the idea mentioned by someone else of a three way war, but I guess it would be a big change. It is possible that Sylvanas withdraws and the Forsaken, and undead becomes a class in its own right rather than a race, which Sylvanas is in some way the figurehead or demi-god of.

Those who think that Sylvanas is the the lackey of Garrosh the brainless and his motley coalition can please themselves - but I suspect they will be in for a rude surprise!

Oh, so you're saying you don't care what the actual facts of the story are, you will just believe what you choose to believe. Seems like that is a recurring thing with you.

I am saying that I believe what I have seen from my own experience of the game, not what someone wrote up on wowpedia or whatever.