I think supersix2 might have it right there, we all assume that the machines had complete and total control of the Matrix, but that's not true. You've got the Merv running around, the Trainman (obviously not a sanctioned program), even the Oracle was rouge, there are all of these programs running around the Matrix unknown/hidden from the machines, which means the machines did not have total control over the Matrix, which is probably why Smith was able to mess everything up the way he did.

Why didn't they just shut down the Matrix and kill Smith? Here's a thought.... The Machines weren't ready to destroy their power supply yet. The Architect mentioned that "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." when he was talking about Neo choosing the other door and destroying the Matrix. There's a couple of possibilities here, either the Architect was bluffing, which I doubt, or do you think that they'd calculated that if the One ever chose the other door how long they'd have before the Matrix destroyed itself.

I think that the machines had a projection of how long they would have before the Matrix destroyed itself and had contingency plans for surviving the coming power shortage/dark age, but being that they were machines I'll bet they had a fixed timeline in which to enact these contingency plans. Smith was a surprise to them, they had not calculated the possibility of him. Smith was getting ready to destroy/crash the Matrix far faster than the machines were ready for. This was why they didn't just pull the plug. They were waiting as long as possible.

Make any sense?

Also what we saw, for a brief moment, the matrix "resetting" itself. It's the scene where the cat is walking up to the little girl. It was the machines returning all of the people smith took over....setting the matrix back to the way it was before this whole process started up.

Déjà vu

I wasn't expecting to see *ahem* so much of Persephone!

lurkette pointed this out, and she's exactly right. You had this beautifully framed two-shot of her and the Merovingian, all slick and glamorous. And where did your eyes go? :D

His vital signs in the real world recorded him as being dead. The Agents also checked again and they also took him in as being dead. Now connecting this with the Biblical symbolism, Neo had to die and come back; be resurrected.

Here's a question I haven't quite figured out yet... At the end of Revolutions the Architect is talking to the Oracle and mentions something like "you play a dangerous game" which verifies to me that she's the real instigator of this revolution. (Neo chose the other door because of his love for Trinity, which the Oracle kind of played matchmaker in setting up)

But if Smith had not been in the equation everything would have turned out different. Neo would not have been able to negotiate with the machines to take out Smith in exchange for peace. So the machines would have just killed everyone and both worlds would have been wiped out.

So does that mean that the Oracle knew or instigated the Smith virus? If she had anything to do with it what influence can you think of? I'm drawing a blank. If she had nothing to do with Smith, then she was playing a high stakes game with nothing in her hand. Which seems kinda stupid.

The Oracle talked about making choices when you knew what the result would be.
With the past Neos, she saw that Smith could take over and ran the risk of not stopping him.
He seemed surprised that he was able to take her over.

I think I figured out what the deal on Smith is.
Ok in the Matrix (the first movie) the Oracle told Neo that either he or Morpheous would have to day and he would have to make that choice. So when Morpheus was captured Neo went and rescued him, Neo then died. But as a fluke he came back and killed Smith, which started the whole Smith going crazy thing. It is deeper than that though. The Oracle wasn't wrong when she said that either Morpheus or Neo must die because in the past Matrixes Morpheus did die and Neo never fought Smith like he did so Smith never went crazy and took over the Matrix. In Reloaded, Smith explains that Neo freed Smith in that fight between them in the Matrix.
Having said that, the dangerous game the Architect was referring to, I believe is how the Oracle chooses to help the humans. After all, knowing too much about your fate can be bad and actually do more harm than good. Example being how Neo chose to fight Smith which caused Smith to go rouge.
Remember, the Oracle is a program that was designed to fix the bug in the Matrix. As stated in Reloaded, when programs become obsolete they are either deleted or given the choice to live in the Matrix. Obviously most programs choose to live in the Matrix. The programs can then live thier lives how they wish. Most of them, it seems live high class lives in organized syndicates. The Oracle, however chose to help the humans. Because of that she played a dangerous game in being hunted by Agents and the other programs. Thats why Seriph defended her.
Ok, I think I was going to say more but my brain hurts now and I can't think. I might have more later. Feel free to comment.

I'm not sure if the "dangerous game" the Architect was refering to was the Oracle's aiding of humans, because I was under the impression that she had also helped the previous Ones. So she'd always helped the humans. That was her purpose. She allowed them to have a choice out of the Matrix, she was the gateway, so to speak.

I'm thinking that the Architect was talking about her messing with the established order of events. I think it's apparent that the previous 5 Ones were never in love, nor (I think) did any of them "die" like Neo did. The Oracle set that all up. If not for the Oracle telling Morpheus that he would find the One someone else, possibly with less conviction/faith, would have. If not for the Oracle telling Neo that one of them would die/you are not the One, then Neo would not have gone in and tried to save Morpheus. Now you just have to believe that some how she knew that Neo would resurect himself, and that he would kill Smith (thus creating the Smith Virus), maybe she saw this was destined to happen once the other events were in place. By setting all of the players, Morpheus, Trinity and Neo, the Oracle was able to direct the One away from the door leading to the Source, which probably would have allowed Smith to kill everyone, and create something that was different from the previous 5 iterations of the One... Peace/Hope/Change.

So the Oracle's "dangerous game" was betting the future of mankind and machinekind on the choices of three humans.

I hope that makes sense. I didn't think about how far back the Oracle's meddling went until you brought it up supersix, but I think I got it now.

Poweraid ads wtf!
But I thought the Tasty Wheat ones were a nice touch

My theory on this:

The Oracle says that Neo is not the one, but "maybe in your next life". This is not quite as literal as it seems.

I think that cookie that she gave him, actually disguised some sort of code (think Merovingian and the orgasm cake), that would make Neo aware of his powers as The One and also be able to see the matrix code (when she gives him the cookie she comments that Neo would feel right as rain, and rain in the Matrix trilogy is closely associated with the matrix code). Now heres a snag, in order for the code to work, Neo has to be rebooted. First he is "shut down" by Smith, then he powers back up, with the cookie code active, and thus: can see the matrix, can destroy Smith (or at the very least release him), stop bullets, fly and ultimately realise that he is the one.

Also looking back at the first film, when Smith takes out his earpiece and starts talking to Morpheus, I think at that point he wanted the codes to Zion not for the sake of the machines, but to replicate himself quicker both in the Matrix (no humans could oppose him), and in the real world (ala Bane).

Hmm, looks like a bit of a rant, oh well :]

Full marks! I hadn't even thought about that. Wow, that's the coolest bit o' speculation I think I've read in this whole thread. That makes so much sense it's scary.

I also think something happend when Persephone put on lipstick and kissed Neo...something to do with code. I think you could hear some Matrix noise when their lips touched.

I caught that to, that is why I thought Merv and Persephone would play a bigger part in Revolutions. You could definitely hear the electronic/static sound effect when they kissed.

I'm not really satisfied with Revolutions, i feels kind of "empty". Part2 and especially Part1 where full of some interesting dialouges and somehow Part3 is missing this.

I was also disappointed with the end, I mean what kind of "victory" was that?
Most humans are still trapped in the matrix, they are only allowed to escape if the find the way out be themself. Any "assistance" by morpheus and Zion could be interpreted as act of war by the machines. The mchines are still breeding humans as their source of energy, they can not allow too many humans to escape the matrix. So I think the "end" is more of a, very instable "cease fire".

The only hope is that the concept of "love" which was shown by the parents of Sati could finally bring the machines to cooperate with the humans.
But all in all I expected more from "the one"

Was it stated only the ones that could find their way out? I thought all humans were going to be freed; which didnt make any sense becasue of the power issue.

Just a couple of quesitons some may have caught that I apparently missed:

1. I understand that machines dont lie; (the arch making the statement about giving his word), but its hard to accept that Neo entrusted that the machines would just "stop" after he beat Smith. The "mechanical entity" suddenly felt joy/honor/even/etc when New said "peace"? Those sentinels were right there and they had the humans beat. Did Neo die? Was he used as a trojan horse to destroy Smith? If so why would the machines stop?

2. Neo had powers in the real world: why? If he had that kind of power it seems nothing could stop him.

3. DId anyone catch in the 3 who desinged the Architech?

The Oracle: What about the others?
The Architect: What others?
The Oracle: The ones that want out.
The Architect: Obviously they will be freed.
The Oracle: I have your word?
The Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

Those who dont want to be out will stay in the matrix, but to want out you first must know that you are inside the matrix

I just want to start out by saying that I'm a huge fan of the Matrix. It is my favorite movie ever. I just watched Revolutions and though I may be a bit biased, I can't say I was disspointed. I will say I think the Wachowski could have done better with what they had to work with. By "what they had to work with" I mean they had a great story line and premise, but I feel that they lost a bit of focus by the time the third movie came around. I have no problems with story lines taking an unexpected twist, but I feel like they started telling a story about Cinderella and ended up talking about Snow White, to emply a metaphor.

I'd just like to add that my favorite part in the Matrix Saga is in the second one where Neo fights all the Smiths. That was incredible.

They wouldn't want to free everyone in the Matrix, because the majority of the people don't want to be freed. They're happy right were they are. The point is that if anyone figures out that the Matrix isn't real and wants out then they're free to leave. Also the machines are supposed to leave Zion alone. I would be more worried about the people in Zion having a grudge against the machines and ending the cease fire than the machines starting something.

Watch the Animatrix, especially the 2nd Renaissance, it gives some back story on how the machines think/behave. The machines aren't looking for a fight, and I doubt they really harbor prejudices like humans do. If man had given the machines any options they wouldn't have destroy us. But we attacked first and would not settle for peace. So they wiped us out. That was our fault.

You can leave the Matrix but you have to "believe". It's very analogous to religion, heaven and hell and all that. If you have faith you will be saved.

"Why would the machines stop? When they could just kill everyone?" They don't want to. They're logical beings. They'd rather not waste the time and energy and resources destroying Zion. There's good that can come of a man/machine alliance. They'd rather be friends than enemies. And if you think about it, the Matrix will always exist. I doubt they'll ever take it down. It's too useful of a tool. As long as there's a choice then it's not a prison.

I thought the ending was the only way that the movie could go and not be lame as hell. There's no way that the humans could have won. Yeah they could have fended off the machines attacking Zion, but more would have come, more than they could ever have beaten. Zion would eventually fall. And if Neo had just destroyed the machines then I don't think it would have ended with as many possibilities as it did. The truce and the death of Neo and all that it leaves open allow for a much more philosophical ending than would have been if Neo had just kicked the machines asses.

So if you wanted the Independence Day ending then yeah it probably was disappointing, and I'll admit that it still would have been a cool finish, but I can see why they went with the "deeper" ending.

I was never too fond on this concept in some religions but when you use it in this way it makes a lot more sense, thank you for enlightening my day.

Thanks Moobie for the suggested viewings. I've only watched the movies and now I remember that it was stated in the extras of Reloaded that you really have to watch everything and even play the game to fully understand the whole story.

Definately watch the Animatrix it's so totally worth it, the music is awesome too. Plus there's a must see story about the "kid". You'll actually understand who he is.

I've never played the games so I have no idea what kind of story is in there to tie into the movies. I have no intention of ever playing the games and if they put information vital to the comprehension of the movie storyline in a friggin game then that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So if anyones's played the games I'd be interested in hearing what they add to the story.

Also the online comics on www.whatisthematrix.com are pretty cool if you've got some time to waste. Not a whole lot of new info, but some pretty good exposition on the Matrix world in general.

The amout of information that is to be had from Enter The Matrix is overstated in my opinion. you aren't missing a huge amount.

Pretty much from what I've heard the only real info from Enter the Matrix is when Niobe goes to see the Oracle. What they talked about I don't know.

Did anybody else catch the exchange between Smith and the Oracle when she calls him a bastard and he says something to the effect of "you would know, mom." I was just wondering if anybody had any ideas about how that whole thing works.

I believe he's refering to the fact that the Oracle is the mother of the matrix.

But I have a feeling that it's not so cut and dry as that. Usually there are dual meanings to most things in the Matrix. This seems too easy of a reading. Anybody else?

Roger that. I downloaded all of the movies that you get to see with Enter the Matrix and it didn't explain a whole lot to the overall trilogy. The plot of Enter the Matrix is amazing, though. I wish that game would have been good. :( Niobe, Ghost, and Sparky were three of the coolest secondary characters in the trilogy.

Ghost and Niobe both had to go see the Oracle. I don't remember what she told Niobe, but I do know that it's revealed that Ghost is in love with Trinity but knows he can never have her. You also get to see some short but cool fight scenes with Seraph.

Persephone is also in Enter the Matrix. In order to reveal information that the rebels need, she makes them give her a kiss. Yes, Ghost and Niobe kissed her for the information they needed.

Simply enough, Enter the Matrix shows what's going on with Niobe, Ghost, and Sparky during Reloaded and Revolutions. None of it has a lot to do with the main plot, though.

-Lasereth

I read a spoiler for Revolutions long before the movie came out that had a bunch of pictures from the trailers that said that "The Kid" was actually the One. In it they said that the Kid ended up taking over the Architects position. I've been trying to find it, but to no avail. Does anyone remember this or even does anyone have the link to it? I haven't been able to find it.

Alright, I FINALLY saw Revolutions and loved it. In fact, thank you to all the people who hated it in this thread for making me realize just HOW MUCH I loved it.

I've got to say - and I don't mean this in any way as a jab to anyone - but every single explanation I've ever heard for people disliking it is boiled down to one of three things: either 1) you missed one or many points that, frankly, were not that hard at all to extrapolate from what we're given in the movies, 2) you're simply upset because the movies didn't end the way YOU envisioned them to - and this is an understandable reason to dislike a movie to a certain extent, but not with as much malice as it seems many do, or 3) you can't look past the very few minor inconsistancies that there are in the movies (and by few I mean a couple, because most "inconsistancies" are actually not if you're willing to put the pieces of the puzzle together).

The movie was amazing - period. I'm not going to get into the many different things I saw criticized in this thread and explain them - at least not now - because I simply can't remember them all. But, I will point out that the sunrise ending really did have a lot of significance. The lack of green overtones as mentioned is not something that only a fanboy would notice - when symbolism like that is used throughout THREE entire movies, it's the kind of thing that most people paying attention should see. And the little girl wasn't pointless either - she was given a purpose to control the sunrise in the Matrix. That's why the oracle asked her if she "did that."

One thing I can say though is that, generally speaking, these three movies are a GREAT example why Square will never make a Final Fantasy VII game. Most EVERYONE love the original MAtrix movie and in the years between it and these 2, everyone came up with their own expectations as to what would happen. It was IMPOSSIBLE to meet everyone's expectations, so they weren't. Instead they simply did what they planned on doing all along - and if you watch the first movie with a keen eye you can see the seed being planted right away, i.e. the screen of televisions.

And, lastly, since I'm going on a rant here and there are so many things I want to say that I really have no structure to this post, I just wanted to address Neo's "powers" in the real world. The simple answer is, he didn't have any "powers" per se. At the end of the first movie, Neo and Smith joined. At that point, Smith became Neo's opposite and, like Smith said in the second movie, there was something of Neo left in him. That something was a little bit of Neo's humanity. Likewise, Neo took away from the experience a little bit of Smith's connection to the machines. Neo never had more strength or anything like that in the real world - he only had an innate connection to the machines. When he was blinded, all he could see was things related to the machines. He could not see Trinity or anything associated with humans in any way - only everything associated with machines.

Also, just like Morpheus said at some point in the trilogy, what happened could not have happened any other way. It's an exploration of purpose and everything fulfilled its purpose exactly as it should have. Trinity HAD to die AT THAT POINT or else Neo could not have let go of his life and done what he needed to do. The Oracle HAD to be absorbed by Smith or else Neo could not have realized what he had to do. Bane HAD to blind Neo or else he couldn't have realized the vision he was capable of and led them to the destination they had to go to in the Machine City. Everything simply HAD to happen the way that it did - it was inevitable. It was fate. It's really amazing how WELL everything is tied together.

Anyway, now that I've done nothing but rant on, I think I'll stop here and just say, once again, that this movie ROCKED.


EDIT: And, by the way, the first thing I said at the end of the movie was "I don't get it." I could have stopped there and not put my brain to work as to putting the pieces of the puzzle together, but I didn't - I thought and discussed and, for that, I am grateful, because now I am able to look on the trilogy as the great thing that it is.

EDIT2: Oh yeah, and if you haven't already then this is a good read for some of the less-specific symbolism of the movie: http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/031109matrix.htm

hehe SM70.. you have a wee bit too much time on your hands..
Good job at defending a crappy movie though, Personally, im pretending it never happened.

I gotta chirp in a say a few things here. I get the impression that people who praise all the symbolism of the Matrix movies are impressed with these movies because they've never witnessed such depth in a movie before. I often feel people are going through this epiphany with the series, where they say to themselves "Wow! A movie can have underlying themes and visual metaphors! Whodathunkit?"

I'm not an idiot (quite the opposite, in fact! ;)). I understand the themes and symbolism the Matrix series uses. I pay attention to things like this (in every movie I watch or book I read, etc... well, the ones where you get something out of doing so). Yes, the Matrix has these things. But I get impression that people ignore the fact that, after the first movie, the Matrix series lacks good scripting, plot, and characters (see my previous posts in this thread). They ignore this because they're too busy trying to figure out all the underlying stuff. That's all well and good, but please don't think that people are idiots for not liking these movies. Our standards are just placed differently. I like my movies to be superfically pleasing as well as deep.

I've seen and read plenty of works that have 10 times as much depth as some people claim the Matrix to have, but do not fail in the categories that the Matrix does (study some Shakespeare, then you'll know what I'm talking about. I apologize that I have to compare him to the Matrix, but some people seem to be putting the series on a very high pedastol). Anyway, the key difference between most of these works is subtlety. The Matrix shoves its themes down your throat. Take this for example:

I challenge anyone to tell me that that's good, intelligent writing. Anyone who says it is... sorry, it's just horrible. And the second two movies are filled with this kind of trash. This is why I don't like the last two movies. Not because I don't understand the (often assumed) depth of the Matrix.

Sorry for the rant. I mean no harm. :D

Ganguro: Not time. The stuff I said in that post took about 15 minutes of talking with my friends after the movie to realize. Really didn't take that much thought at all.

Moskie: I'm glad to, er, read that ;) Seriously. But I do think that you're in the minority as far as your true reasons. I have not seen one bad review that wasn't based on a simple lack of understanding - the one on CBS's website that was linked earlier is a perfect example. Likewise, most people's comments reflect the same type of thing.

But you're right - there are PLENTY of movies which have just as much or more meaning than the Matrix movies. Perhaps many people don't realize this, perhaps they do. But nonetheless I don't think that the 2nd or 3rd movie are any worse than the first - especially considering that, as was pointed out, the cliches, etc were just as present in the first.

Anyways, we're all of course entitled to our opinions.

Just bought Animatix and it was definatley enjoyable as well as giving the whole story a better foundation (especially The New Ren Part I and II).

I still dont fully understand why Neo has powers outside the Matix ie (being able to see after his eyes are torched, being able to disable machines, etc)

Many critics give the trilogy good reviews because of these main aspects. I believe that the script (especially in Reloaded and Revolutions), plot, and characters were all the best aspects of the trilogy. I'd like to include a quote from one of my co-posters on a website I update:

I couldn't have said it better myself. The only thing that I would like to add is the fact that the amount of time spent outside of the Matrix is constant to how much people liked the movies. The first movie was about 90% Matrix, and everyone loved it. Reloaded was about 60-70% Matrix, and there was controversy over whether it was good or not. Revolutions has about 15-20% Matrix in it, and the general population hated it. Maybe the general population wants to see whirly special effects and doesn't really care about the plot of the trilogy? Just a theory.

And for the record, an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the professional critics that didn't like Reloaded and Revolutions simply didn't understand the plot. I've seen countless reviews saying Revolutions was bad because Smith was more powerful than in the first one, and "agents are based on rules!" No shit, go watch Reloaded, Smith isn't an agent anymore. Little facts like these can change opinions on the trilogy. The only critic that gets all of the plot information correct and has rated these movies what they deserve to me is Roger Ebert. The first Matrix and Revolutions got 3 stars out of 4, and Reloaded got 3.5 stars out of 4. I have to agree -- Reloaded was my favorite. I don't care if critics or readers didn't like the last two movies, but don't say they suck based on false information...that's what most of those that hated them are doing.

-Lasereth

Ok, admit it Las.... you either ARE Roger Ebert himself, or his agent. So which is it? ;)

I've read over 500 of his reviews for the movies of the past 20 years and have disagreed with TWO. Two movies out of 500...I personally think he knows what the hell he's talking about. Those two movies were the Final Fantasy movie (which I hated because I love the games) and Fight Club (which I would have rated a bit higher).

*EDIT* I did an actual count, and it seems that I've read well over 500 of his reviews. They're addicting. :)

-Lasereth