An intelligent discussion of Twilight
 

Full disclosure: I have neither seen the films, nor read the books. My wife has seen the first one, and didn't like it.

Can anyone with ovaries explain the appeal behind Twilight? This is absolutely not a bashing thread, as just saying they are 'bad' or 'gay' or whatever doesn't explain them.

From what I have read about them (which really isn't fair, if I'm going to talk about them I really should read them, but I just don't have time lately to spend on something I suspect I won't like), they are very light on the main protagonist details, allowing the female reader to insert herself into the story, and empathize with all the attention she gets from Mr. Superpowerful Ancient Vampire who longs only for her.

Is that the extent of the appeal--that is, that it caters to women's need to feel unique, special, desired, and fought-over? I'd love to hear some defensible analytical opinions from both sides of the fence....if you feel the need to gush or bash, click back and go update your facebook status..

I've got nothing first-hand to add. However, I just tripped across a bit of interesting cross-discussion at The Twilight Saga: Team No Shirts. This is coming from Bust magazine, a sort of new-wave feminist sex-positive thing.

Confusingly enough, your linked article basically concludes that the primary attribute this film has is topless men.
I suspect the fact that it is topless men battling for the attention of the heroine (?) that actually makes them attractive, as there is mroe ab on display at your local Abercrombie, but I'd love to hear from some actual XX's their thoughts.

Kevin smith explains it well.

I have ovaries and no desire to read Twilight. Baraka_Guru said in chat the other day that a literature degree had ruined him for things like this; I couldn't agree more. My tolerance for trashy fiction has decreased considerably over time. I blame my English degree for introducing me to the masterpieces of fiction.

Moist, indeed. And, Snowy, you wouldn't read my eHarlequin series under the pseudonym Planina McNineson?

...

Telekinetic, I've asked this question before:

...

Honestly, the Twilight thing is no different than what happens to my crotch when they dig up the apocalypse armory in Terminator 2.

Not necessarily; my English degree doesn't keep me from enjoying some really stoopid movies. I AM much more critical of lame films that try to pawn themselves off "serious," "deep," or "art," though.

Fine, I admit to reading three of the books... but... I don't get it. I can only imagine that teen girls think being stalked is hot.



Okay, seriously... there's the fairy tale element, I suppose. Bella is the helpless princess in the tower, who has not one, but two princes fighting for her honor or...whatever.

The problem, of course, is when they get into real life relationships and think either a) they have to be the helpless princess for the guy to love them, or b) in order to prove that he loves her, the guy has to be utterly devoted in such a way that he's bordering on Creepy Stalker Guy.

hmmm...the more I think about it (and believe me, I'm struggling very hard not to go into Rant Mode), I guess one could also argue the "Bad Boy With a Heart of Gold" angle. Yes, he's an evil blood-sucking vampire... but he doesn't eat PEOPLE. And he's so GENTLE with Bella. Awwww, swoon.

cinn, you have a Twilight tshirt don't you

I'm one of those ... unless you can actually write really well, you can't say twilight is badly written. Yes, it is unoriginal, yes, the storyline wreaks of poor plot, yes, it is heavily predictable, but any more harsher critics than that and you just have a severe case of "damn, why didn't I think of that!!"

That and this thread title made me LMAO like crazy you don't even know!

EDIT: WTF Cinn???

http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/000...-vampirism.gif

No, I don't have a t-shirt, woodsie :p Although I like that one, xerx.


Let me reiterate: I don't like Twilight. Bella and Edward are the second and third most annoying fictional characters ever. I do, however, love fairy tales and folk tales, and Twilight has some definite fairy tale trends.

And it's not like I can say much about the teens going crazy for Edward and Jacob... I had a major crush on Gabriel from the Dark Visions trilogy when *I* was 13. And come to think of it, that was a very similar story, but then, aren't all love triangles similar?

Okay, I am going to see New Moon on Saturday. And I've watched Twilight two or three times.

The appeal for me? This is the kind of story I really got into when I was in middle school. Vampire fiction was really my introduction to lust and sexualized thought, and so it has this "tingly" effect on my mind sometimes.

Honestly, at my age the story has both the "oooh I feel like I'm 12 again!" appeal and an insane level of humor. Yes, Edward is essentially a stalker. Yes, it's creepy to a certain level. Yes, it's ridiculous that these vampires sparkle and consider themselves "vegetarians." But you know what? There's still the level of "omg, he's so cute.. and he likes her.. OMG AND HE'S PROTECTING HER AWW" thought that goes through my head thanks to vampire story conditioning as a pre-teen. MOST of those stories have a level of creepy/stalker, but they are OBVIOUSLY FICTION. I mean, come on.. vampires don't exist. Every normal human knows that. And so, it fulfills the "my life and body are dominated by a sexy, experienced superhuman" fantasy while safely being totally fictitious and therefore having virtually zero application to real life.

The people who think these stories are applicable to real relationships are at least slightly crazy. I, for one, value the series for the entertainment it provides me - both in fantasy and in comedic value.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Teenage girls have money to spend, and they are spending it.

Oh, I understand the appeal to the producers and studios. What I'm asking is, why does it appeal to the teenage girls? Why are they spending their money on it?

You mentioned hobbies in another thread. I'm guessing 'Twilight' is simply one of theirs. : shrug: They may wonder similar about your interests.

Ok, WHY is Twilight interesting to them?

I'm pretty sure there's no conspiracy or deep-seeded meaning as to why teen girls like it. That's like asking why do men like football or computers?

I don't believe it is. I'd happily address both questions in another thread, but if the answer to my questions is self evident to you, please share it with us! What aspects of the storyline and production appeal to what demographics, and why do you think that is?

Hey, all I know is it involves vampires, boy loves girl and girl loves boy. It's like the dark version of 90210.

Are you saying you believe that something in the vampire mythos is attractive to young females? There are many other books with vampires in them, and I bet not very many Twilight fans have watched Nosferatu or Bram Stoker's Dracula. Also, the Blade series was not a smash chick-flick hit, so that element doesn't appear to have UNIVERSAL appeal. Is there something particularly attractive about the way this series has tweaked its definition of vampire?

Are you saying it is because there is a romance? What aspects of the romance do you think the viewers find attractive? Many MANY MANY movies have "boy loves girl and girl loves boy" in them, and I don't have coworkers taking days off to go see the openings of THOSE.

These are the concepts I started this thread to explore, and I think to dismiss the series popularity as "Vampires and love story, duh" is not sufficient analysis for my taste...I want to know from people who know (like Cinn for example...way to take one for the team with the reading!!) what SPECIFICALLY is it about the Twilight universe that created such a reaction?

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------

Cinn, sorry I missed your reply in today's chaos. I think you're probably very close to the truth with your 'bad boy with a heart of gold gives up his bad ways for the special princess' idea. I wonder why you had resistance to swooning for these concepts, as opposed to so many people who just immerse themselves and watch the movies a bunch of times.

Girls like drama. Not all, but undoubtedly, young, teen girls like drama (nothing offensive intended towards cinn. Personally, I think she just likes darker stuff as I think I've seen her also mention Charmed and Buffy.) Remember how hot Harry Potter got? Lots started reading that fantasy simply because everyone else was. Popularity rules. 13 year old girls aren't going to beat down the doors at Blockbuster to rent 'Terms of Endearment.' They want what's new and hip and different (like everything else.) They want mainstream. They want the new dudes featured in Teen Beat every month.

I'm not sure if this in intelligent, but it is written by someone who has experience with the book: How Twilight Works - The Oatmeal -

Here's the gist: vapid, immature girl with low self esteem (90% of all teenage girls) meets perfect guy who adores her.

This is the stuff of girly masturbation.

Hah, I saw that on reddit this morning, too, which was what prompted this thread!

Did someone say girly masturbation?

Solid. :thumbsup: Another article I read referred to it as "dangerous porn for girls."

Did anyone read my post in this thread? Seriously?

Huh.

This made me think of how some girls react to Mark Wahlberg in that old FEAR flick... he's a creepy psycho and they'd totally let him do whatever he wants. I guess it's okay to be a creepy psycho when you're in touch with your haircare products, have six pack abs, and push a sweet ride.

This is the second vampire series I have encountered that changed the vampire mythology from the usual characteristics where they must "sleep" during the day, drink blood to survive, and have super strength to providing each vampire with a unique power that they can use during a fight and being able to go out in the sun, but unfortunately causes them to be super incredibly beautiful to humans. I know the "sparkle-affect" is kind of lame, but it is an easy approach for them to get a meal.

If you can ignore the other crap that is in the series in which Bella is addicted to Edward and goes through super withdrawal symptoms in book 2 for about 200-300 pages where nothing happens and then becomes attached and uses Jacob, who is a super whiny werewolf in books 2-4, but not as whiny in the movie, then you have an average vampire series. But, don't get me started on the super weak ending in book 4 otherwise I might just tell you to avoid reading the series.

This explains your hats.

You are only a stalker if the girl thinks you are ugly, then it's just "sweet" or he "cares" about her. It's like having a six-pack gives you a free pass to hide in dark alleys and watch her during the day/night.

Yes. Yes, I did. And, while I can see the appeal to 12-year-old girls, the appeal to the adult audience still somewhat eludes me. Vampires have always had a sexually seductive allure about them. That’s how they lure their victims. I’m 47. To me, vampires have slicked back hair, wear tuxedos and capes, speak in eastern European accents and choose their victims based upon the amount of cleavage that shows through their silky nightgowns. I can, however, make the jump to vampires wearing trench coats, having spiky hair and munching on anything that has sweet warm human blood pulsing through it’s veins. But this? No, I cannot wrap my mind around it. But, then again, I was never a 12-year-old girl. What do I know? I know that, to your average male, this is like chugging down an entire gallon of pure maple syrup. Stomach pains from a sickeningly sweet goo with no substance whatsoever.

I blame this partly on Buffy. I mean, that show had a vampire with a soul, all touchy feely and tormented. And, truth be told, a bit of a stalker. But, at least they explained his character in a somewhat semi-believable storyline. And, that show at least had Alyson Hannigan. :thumbsup:

Honestly, Twilight would be perfectly acceptable for mass consumption if it featured car chases down by the waterfront, napalm explosions from small arms fire, and at least one scene where some generic SWAT team screams "GO GO GO!"

Troo

HAHAHAH, perfect comic.

I wasn't going there for the fear of THE Cinn, but yeah, Angel was a fucking stalker. He stalked the FUCK out of Buffy, but it was OK cause he was handsome and broody. I can't think of a vampire before Angel that was on TV that was all stalky and broody that hung out with humans willingly. Broody vampires yes, but they KILLED humans then became all broody. Angel was all "I love a little blonde killer of my people who I watch and follow around all the time." BROOD BROOD BROOD KISS KISS STALK STALK STALK BROOD BROOD BROOD.

I'm so getting yelled at for this.

Probably because I grew up reading books like The Ordinary Princess, where the title character runs away to live in the forest when her parents try to marry her off; and The Enchanted Forest Chronicles, where Cimorene learns to fence and do magic and rescues the prince, instead of the other way around. And the Song of the Lioness Quartet, in which Alanna disguises herself as a boy so she can become a knight...and ends up becoming the King's Champion.



Why would you get yelled at? You're totally right. Angel and Spike both were incredibly stalker-ish. The difference is that Buffy called them on it (most of the time), and wasn't a helpless little twit.

As an avid Buffy/Angel fan, I think the most important difference between Buffy's relationships with both Spike and Angel is that there was no happily ever after and, even when things were going "well" for those relationship (insofar as it ever went well), they were obviously unhealthy for everyone involved. Far be it for me to say that the Buffyverse portrays the Nosferatu or even the Draculas of vampires, but it's an enormously far cry from the...inanity of Twilight vampires.

And, honestly, let's not dwell much on the stalker aspect. Vampires are hunters and "stalking", if you want to call it that, has always been a part of their mythos. Or, at least, it has been since Dracula. The difference, at least in my mind, is Twilight's presentation of stalker behavior being somehow normal, acceptable or even romantic. Vampires have always stalked, but it's clearly never been a healthy thing-for them or for their prey. Twilight's turned that all on its head.

The bottom line is that Twilight is Mary Sue fanfic cleaned up just enough to get it into the public eye. It's very easy for girls to feel like they're Bella and easy for women to remember feeling like they were Bella, and when you feel unattractive and uninteresting, what could be more exciting than having two princes (good word Cinn) fighting for your affections. My only real objection to Twilight is the fact that it's portraying extremely unhealthy relationship conduct as romantic and tossing in a heaping dose of Mormon morality for good measure. And it's doing so to people who are impressionable enough to get the message without necessarily understanding it.

for the promise of some T&A or the shock of a gore fest, men and boys are willing to throw story and acting out the window....so why not women and girls too ?

PotatoPony
yes I did....perfect explanation to me. I'm not attracted to Vampire film (maybe some of the old Hammer films) or literature at all...but I've watched tons of other stuff that panders to my inner 12-18 yr old (and I'd have a hard time arguing I've matured much beyond that not that I'm in my 40's) I mean I haven't read or watched Twilight, but I've herd plenty of comments on wolf boys abs and that was on NPR ! I don't listen to commercial radio. so I don't think the appeal of this stuff is rocket science.

Well, I can't speak for all women and girls, but if you're throwing the story out the window, there's not much of a point, is there?



That's kind of what I was getting at, but you worded it much better. :thumbsup: