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Thanks for the informative post. Like I said I really have no idea what happened in Japan. I was there in 83 (three weeks) and again in early 85 (six months.) Navy, young and dumb. I do remember going out to dinner one night with a group of buddies during my first visit and not being real quick with conversion rates was shocked to find out dinner and a couple beers was $100... each. A lot of yen for a sailor in 1983. I remember standing on the street in downtown Tokyo and going over the business card sized conv. table the ship issued us and realizing I'd just spent my months play money on a rather unimpressive dinner and a couple warm beers. We quickly become fond of noodle houses. We also found out the on base McDonald's sold Big Mac's for $3 and the one's in Tokyo ran roughly $9, a meal with fries and drink was well over $15. Other than things being expensive I remember staying with a family that owned a bar. they spoke English pretty well. Mom was a Hiroshima survivor. Very interesting lady. She never charged me for a beer and let me sleep in their spare room, which was about the size of my current closet. She explained to me a great deal regarding the differences between the two cultures. She had, what I considered, I good understanding of the positives and negatives of both. One of the many things she found crazy about the US culture was it spent all it earned. I remember her saying "what happen when it rain?" Since then, over the years, we've had a few storms. I fear those were a little drizzle and light wind compared to what we're dealing with now. Anyway, thanks for the info. I found it interesting. |
I was wanting to ask a question about the "third method" alluded to a few posts ago. From the accompanying illustration it would appear to be spiritual intervention. But I'll not ask; I wouldn't want to be seen as tedious.
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Can we finally all stand up and admit that Reagan was wrong? Can we at least do that, so we can start regulating the market reasonably again? Every time I even try to skirt this issue, I'm called a communist or fascist, and I feel like I'm the only one that was actually thinking in my freshman economics class.
The deregulated market didn't trickle down. It created more opportunities for incompetency or corruption, that's all. The final cost of the S&L nightmare was something like $500 billion. Here we are again. We've got corporate lobbyists further de-clawing and manipulating government so that they can reign free, and when they fail—and they'll all fail—the weak and cowardly government has to give away billions of our tax dollars. Quote:
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this is one thing i've never understood about inflation and money-printing.
everyone knows saying HAY LETS PRINT MOAR MONEYS is bad news. hasn't that been sort of theoretical constant since we were first taught about the germans and their wheelbarrows full of cash following ww1? how about... here it comes. this might be a really dumb question. how about we just DON'T print more money? i see it sort of like "oh shit man there is some crap going on with the banks" "what do we do?" "well, i could hit my head against this rusty nail" "YEA LETS DO IT" .... i've always been told that printing money, especially as a way to avoid recession or whatever the reason is... is a bad thing and leads to a comical-state of worthless bills used as various sanitary-devices, fuel for warmth as everyone gets evicted, and for writing funny devil moustaches on. so why is the first choice for fixing everything. PRINT TEH MONIESS ZOMG |
Philosophically, Will, isn't any regulation the definition of something other than a free market? Any regulation makes it "free except..." Sort of like "a little bit pregnant." At what point does it become Socialist (or Communist, depending)? Protecting Mom and Pop but not "the big guys?" Who shal define the point at which I become a Big Guy?
To clarify, I would make a distinction between criminal law (e.g. stealing) and regulation (e.g. margin requirements). |
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Every time I hear that trickle down theory I'm reminded of the line from "The Outlaw Josey Wales." Quote:
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It becomes socialist when we have collective property, not before then. |
depends what you like, really. if you like a coherent social order, you'll relegate "free markets" to places like ayn rand novels, where they are safely removed from realities and wrapped in protective purple prose that only the intrepid brave, and even these generally only in their late teens.
it is in part the ideology that makes this absurd separation between "markets" and "regulation" or law that explains in significant measure why we are sitting around watching the financial catastrophe show. that's been one of the main interpretive claims in the thread. fell free to join in the party, though---put stuff up that you might find which you think either gives a fragment of a picture that can be used to piece together and image, or something that provides a basis for provisional interpretation. it's all done on the fly anyway. i smell popcorn. |
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I've wondered how much the twilight of the personal cheque, increased speed of small-time consumer transactions, and increased surveillance of consumers have affected the US economy. The wiring of the world has restricted flows at the bottom (despite the moralist rants about people living beyond their means). At the top, the same communications infrastructure allows for greater and faster flows of capital. |
I keep hearing references to Ayn Rand pop up during this election. I don't really know why... it's starting to get on my nerves for some reason.
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Its an argument going back to the 1980s, where you have Reaganomics (supply side, free market, trickle-down) and more traditional economics (marriage of both market and government working together to maintain stability) competing. |
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I could be wrong... and hope I am. |
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Wouldn't it be great if a system could be implemented where those responsible decision makers in power would take a lion's share of the losses. |
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Not really because they will be rich. It is the poor that will wither and die. |
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Drill baby, drill! Drill baby, drill! Drill baby, drill! Drill baby, drill! -----Added 18/9/2008 at 05 : 33 : 42----- Quote:
Or.. Ive listened to preachers Ive listened to fools Ive watched all the dropouts Who make their own rules One person conditioned to rule and control The media sells it and you have the role |
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i dont see the problem with regulation---for a more rational form of capitalism, all that's required is long term thinking (god, i feel almost dirty saying this...) but think about it: if you are one of these mythical Kaptains of Industry and you like being a Kaptain of Industry, and you'd like to stay one, then acting in a manner that promotes the functionality of the system that enables you to extract profit makes sense---i mean from a bidness standpoint--dont you think? if what's encouraging american-style Tiny Brain capitalism is gearing bonuses to quarterly earnings reports, or even to annual earnings, ban them with fucking regulation, institute say a five year bonus cycle, fine the crap out of firms that don't comply and threaten them with the kind of pillory-ing that the petit bourgeois types are all too eager to slap onto drunken drivers--who for all the damage they do are Pikers when compared with the damage that's been done to regular people's lives by the present form of Tiny Brain capitalism---- and see what happens.
this is obviously not a plan, but i persist in thinking, even after 8 years of george w bush and the possibility that is more than remote of another 4 subjected to the blight of those paragons of everything Tiny Brained, that americans are not intrinsically stupid, that they are no more greedy and self-centered than anyone else--they just do what they can get away with. btw, back in the other region of action--in the nytimes, the rumor that is said to have bounced the markets up a bit this afternoon was that the state was going to form a magical company that would eat all bad debt from banks---in the guardian, the rumor which explained the same thing was that the us was going to follow the uk lead and make short selling illegal. we'll see. |
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I'm sick to my stomach that we're privatizing profits and socializing debts.
What's your economic theory of choice, rb? |
it doesn't matter here, will: i'm just watching the spectacle and thinking in a social-democrat like way about how to move away neo-liberalism and the rule of the Tiny Brained.
we can talk about economic theory in general another time--i think if i started, it'd derail things and besides, this is kinda interesting... |
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I'm also of the theory that when Americans are finally shaken from our comfort, we'll protest so hard the French will be jealous. It's been a while since a nation-wide protest, especially a violent one, but if we get honestly pissed and shaken from apathy, it's a real possibility. A true collapse of Wall Street or oil drying up without an alternative could result in such protests. -----Added 18/9/2008 at 05 : 52 : 13----- Quote:
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like i said, it makes as much sense from a business standpoint as the Tiny Brain alternative--more even. and i think this is a big enough disaster that lots of things are going to become plausible that didnt seem so over the past 30 years of reactionary economic ideology.
i am more sure of something else, though: mc-cain/palin really really cannot be elected. |
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the kr has climbed to the point where Skogafoss is looking for fares to go to Iceland for Thanksgiving!
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Could she look for tickets for me and ktsp through NYC to Seattle for Christmas? We're buying on the other side, which means that our tickets are still going to be about $1000 each. :sad: |
give me dates, and windows of time that's acceptable. 2 days on either end for variation of fares.
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The Guardian wins. |
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/just another icelandic threadjack. :shy: |
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The Obama campaign scored a hit on Clinton by going after Mark Penn. They should be putting Gramm and Thain in the spotlight soon. Very bad polling news for McCain this week: He's behind in Indiana according to a Selzer poll. That's seriously bad. There's absolutely no way he wins if he even has to fight in Indiana. With the exception of 1964, Indiana has gone Republican in every presidential race since 1940. 10% behind in Colorado? 8% back in N. Mexico? I'd have to say that as the financial system melts down, people outside his base are less and less impressed with his economic acumen. |
Oh, I know Obama is going to win the popular vote and likely get more delegates. My concern is how close the race will be. In 2000, the race was a dead heat which allowed to SCOTUS to help steal the damned thing.
If there is an honest-to-goodness collapse, the POTUS won't matter. |
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I think there would be a more active response from the populace in the case of a full collapse this time around. Instead of scrounging for work, there would be a combination of exodus and massive protests.
The "New Deal" won't work again. The only way to avoid future collapses is economic reform of the kind that would blow most people's minds, such as no more debt and backed currency. |
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His flip flops on regulation His comment that the American economy is strong....then clarifying it later..."what I really meant was the American workers are the best in the world" His criticism of Obama contributors and lobbyists influence when he has surrounding himself with former Freddie/Fannie lobbyists, including his campaign manager His claim that as Chair of the Commerce Committee he was on top of the banking/credit issue, when in fact his committee had no jurisdiction over banking, investment/securities, and related issues (that would be the Banking Committee) His most recent suggesting that, as president, he would fire the head of the SEC...when the president does not have the authority to fire heads of independent agencies outside of the Executive branch. |
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I don't think the concept of free market is too blame. It's the corruption. In fact, we don't have a true free market. -----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 17 : 33----- Quote:
All you do is bash, bash, bash. It's as if you take a sick pleasure in watching the economy decline at the moment while eating your popcorn. Really, what do you think? Do you think this is a temporary hiccup or the beginning of the end? If it's the end, what do you think will take its place? -----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 21 : 23----- Quote:
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Corruption will exist in any system, it is a flaw in mankind.
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-----Added 19/9/2008 at 06 : 20 : 07----- Well roachie, it looks like you got your wish. Short-selling has been temporarily banned. Not sure what to make of it. I kind of liked short-selling but if we need to ban it, then I guess we need to ban it. Still, a temporary ban does seem prudent at this time. SEC bans short-selling - Yahoo! News Quote:
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jorgelito--i'm really not clear on why you impute all these odd motives to what i put up. i've made myself pretty clear--in this context, the only position i see as reasonable is a social-democratic one. this is a mixed economy. trick is that neoliberalism is also a mixed economy--there is no such thing as a "free market" outside the purple prose of ayn rand or the dreams of 18th century political economists---the problem with neoliberals is that they are ideologically and aesthetically opposed to "regulation" so they don't think in those terms---which sets up the incoherent, reactive nonsense you've seen over the past few weeks from the administration--which has intensified an already problematic situation--which was enabled by the administration and its predecessors since reagan.
since markets presuppose regulation, it seems more coherent to think of them in those terms and operate with a perspective that sees in regulation constraints that can be used to direct socio-economic activity---and if you think that way, it becomes easier to address social problems that follow from economic activity. for example, neoliberal-land typically does not even include space for wondering about the relationship between massive consumer debt--of which the shit mortgage problem is but an expression--and the avoidance of the implications of the processes of--say---outsourcing of production. like the good dr bindujeet put it, much of the us is a factory town without the factory at this point. that's not coherent as a social arrangement, that's not coherent as a form of capitalism, and the **only** way it's acceptable is if you think "markets" are like the weather and the consequences of market relations inevitable. that's delusional, though: if that were true, capitalism would have collapsed by 1870. it looks like the state is undertaking *both* options: the sec banned shortselling AND there's some theater going on to create the Magic Debt-Absorbing Machine. |
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From what I remember in Anthem, no, there is not baby killing and all the rest... anyway, that's not what offends me. It's just that people are quoting her, I feel, without actually reading the book. Kind of like the whole "I can see Russia from my island" thing. Just more disingenuity that pisses me off. Or maybe I'm just on cynical override these days... :) |
Given the news of the past few days in the financial sector and the lack of confidence that appeared earlier in the week on wall Street, I think in the end these events will again show the resilience of the American economy. The economy is strong and will flourish in the years to come.
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resilience or denial?????
Because it's always bad to spend money you don't have, or when your expenses are more than your income. this isn't anything but a shell game of transferring the debt so that the boomers don't pay for it, but the gen Y'ers and future will. |
There's an obit for neoliberalism here:
This week's financial crisis marks the end of an epoch | Business | guardian.co.uk It's a bit anglocentric, but the same basic points apply to the situation aux Etats unis, the main one being that the markets have responded positively to regulation. There will still be people fighting the old war, just like there were soldiers in caves in the Phillipines fighting WWII into the 1970s, but for the rest of us, neoliberalism is kaput. |
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I think when the economy needs hundreds of billions of tax payer dollars pumped into it to keep it standing it can no longer be considered "strong." I think this is a mere band-aid- at some point all this borrowing is going to come back to bite us in the ass. |
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what seems at stake is not the swinging about of the stock market, and not whether any of the reactive measure that have been put into place so far "work" but more (a) what the move ultimately is that is being hammered out now--the "big" one and then, more broadly (b) the extent to which the collapse of neoliberalism comes to be reflected in a discursive shift both at the level of how the relation of regulation to economic activity is thought about, implemented, adjusted, etc. lagging behind this will be a shift in the dominant ideological framework, the language of staging/describing...
i think the guardian obit is a pretty good summary of the story so far... |
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To be sure, we have a different set of problems today. They will require a somewhat different set of solutions, but, as it turns out, the New Deal financial regulations were very good ideas. A "backed currency" is not. It's economic nonsense. What is gold worth? It's so-called intrinsic value is as imaginary as paper's. "No more debt" takes us back to the stone age -- and i mean that literally. |
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Although of course I agree in principle, it is much easier to spend less than you earn in a household, small business, or even a large corporation than it is for a government of a large country. There are social programs in place, infrastructure, land management, agreements to be kept around the world, people to work with, and so on. You know this.
This country is not the same as it was since Reagan. Its simply isnt and it hasnt been. If you read the foreign presses you will see that it has been coming for a long time, the dissatisfaction with our politics, and it started then. Although Clinton was much more liked around the globe than these other sitting presidents, he didnt do as much as I would have liked and I think in some ways he fucked us up too. I believe the rb is right, there is a big wind blowing this way. I dont believe this has to do with our spending habits per se. I think it has to do with greed here, and is punative internationally. I think the jig is up, as is our influence. |
what's simultaneously not surprising and a bit alarming in paulsen's statement this morning is the "bad apples in an otherwise healthy batch of produce" way of framing what's been happening. if this thinking frames the program that's being fashioned--the magical debt-sponge institution----
which i think we should all benefit from, don't you?---let's declare a universal debt holiday--pull the plug on the entire machinery for a minute, push reset. ok everyone is liquid now. let's start over. without that, you might start thinking that marx was right about the particular unfreedom within capitalism for everyone except the holders of capital, that the state is little more than an expression and instrument of defense of class interests, on and on.... but that can't be true as we're in a post-class society and the problem is only those bad people who mention class, who seek to divide and/or express their resentment----- then the Magic Debt Sponge will not be framed in a comprehensive enough manner to do much of anything beyond it's immediate functions. what this has to do with is, in the end, how you understand the mortgage business, whether you connect it to the usage of debt as a mechanism for buying social solidarity that's been pushed to its limits by neoliberalism, or whether you see it as separate. this is one of those questions that i think an index of the political divisions within the american monocrop ideology, at the moment, my theory of what's coming is way too cynical. suffice it to say that the next election looms ever larger, and that i think if mc-cain/palin are elected, the united states will find itself shifted from empire to a nebulous space closer to that of the "3rd world" than its position of empire. gone are the days when the americans will be able to export the irrationalities of their socio-economic order and use the imf/world bank system to force southern hemisphere countries to accept them. the empire is crumbling, but that doesn't mean there's only one possibility as to outcome. |
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Have you ever seen a Rocky movie? In every movie, Rocky has his confidence shaken, but in every movie his inner strength and potential is there. In every movie Rocky, fundamentally strong, has needed reassurance or a little push from another character, either Adrian, Mickey, Apollo, etc. He gets that push and is ready to fight. During the fight he takes the best shots from his opponent, he never gives up, his inner strength comes to the surface. Rocky overcomes, Rocky is a winner. Our economy is like Rocky, with a little help our economy will overcome, our economy will win.:thumbsup: :rolleyes:Anaolgy is now completed, o.k. to continue with normal discourse.:thumbsup: |
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That's a great little fantasy. Real life isn't like that. Here's one challenge to the analogy: when is this movie supposed to be over? When is the denouement? When exactly will we look around and say, "Hey, everybody! We MADE IT!!"? A year? Ten? What will the next day be about, a sequel? LIFE ISN'T LIKE THE MOVIES. |
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fistf: i think it's at that point in thinking about this situation that you have to start looking for more structural explanations. the bromides about "greed" don't let you think about what enabled any particular sequence of actions; the assumption about market actors as "rational" doesn't let you say anything about why a particular set of actions could have unfolded that would have lead to irrational or self-destructive outcomes.
this is all of a piece with a characteristic of neoliberalism that makes it so abberant and destructive: it is predicated on dissocation: of the present from the past, of markets from the rest of the social; of economic activity from politics on and on and on. these gaps, which are created through the application of a priori beliefs, are filled back in again with metaphysics. at the limit, you get stuff like the economy can be understood as a fictional boxer. anthropomorphism isn't that big a leaf is you believe in stuff like the famous "invisible hand"--which (stealing a line from somewhere or another) has certainly given us a lesson in the modalities of invisibility in this particular situation. something that invisible, all the time, might not exist. just saying. or maybe it's god that the invisible hand is attached to. if she existed, i wonder what she would have been doing with that invisible hand these past months. i'd like to think that she'd have gone bowling. addition: an interview with george soros from le monde (in french) that describes this fiasco in much the same terms...neoliberalism is imploding... http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...ens_id=1089411 |
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I sometimes think I am so ignorant of macroeconomics that I don't even know how to ask the right questions much less understand the reasoning behind the situation we find ourselves in. |
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Analogy alert...:eek:Analogy alert...:eek: Fannie Mae is like the guy who picks apples from his neighbor's apple trees. At first he picks the good ones, packages them up, sells them for a nice profit. Then the good ones get harder to get, so occupationally he puts a few rotten ones in the package, he is still making a profit. Then more and more of the packages contain rotten apples. Instead of not using the rotten apples and reducing profits he keeps using them. Eventually his greed causes his business to come to an end, because eventually the customers stop buying rotten apples. Analogy concluded:oogle:...Analogy concluded:oogle: Quote:
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I think there must be more to it. Perhaps they did not worry about the long term because they had connections and knew they would be bailed out anyway if things went wrong. Like you and others have pointed out, they are going to make the big bucks even if they fail. |
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So when you have transient shareholders, then the company has to depend on the Board of Directors to look out for the interest of the company. Often board members are part-time, in over their heads, or in-bed with management. So, then you have a board not holding management accountable. Hence you have major corporate failures due to management focused on short-term results to drive the share price. Quote:
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Its pretty simple to me.
The deregulation of S&Ls through the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act cost the taxpayers more than $150 billion in the 80s The more recent deregulation of banking, insurance and financial services institutions through the Financial Services Modernization Act will cost the taxpayers more than $500 billion. -----Added 19/9/2008 at 09 : 20 : 56----- Its too late to look back now...but it is time to re-regulate NOT deregulate. |
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Friends, in a private meeting in Pelosi's offices, Bernanke and Paulson told Congressional Leaders “that we’re literally maybe days away from a complete meltdown of our financial system".
I hate that it's come to this. I hate even more that some Americans are indulging in the fantasy-land view that this is what happens in the fourth act of a boxing movie, and that our boy's on the ropes but he's going to fight back. People are throwing around the term "epoch-changing" to describe the current events. I pray that whatever replaces this system is better than this system is. I pray that whatever happens between now and when whatever that is is in place, it's not too disruptive for the citizens of the world. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/wa...d-cong.html?hp Quote:
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Administration Is Seeking $700 Billion for Wall Street Bailout
Nice... $700 billion.... wonderful! :( |
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People still equate socialism with fascism. Socialism would be turning over control of production of goods and management of services to the workers (or mass, super-unionizing), not a market bail-out. What's going on now is more like temporary directed economy due to market failure.
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If the free market is dead, the wound was self-inflicted.
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this bailout idea isn't in itself anything beyond a bailout idea. the more complex and comprehensive changes will be hammered out in the afterburn of this disaster.
but it's funny--the american press still can't say it, still cannot say that what's dead here is an ideology, a way of thinking about economic activity, a way of separating it from everything else. they keep talking in substantives--"free markets are dead"--well they're neither dead nor alive because they haven't existed. they're fictions. it's be a whole lot easier, i think, for the money people to navigate this if they could relativize their own position--and that inability is simply mirrored in the press accounts. i have to go wrestle chickens. |
Can't help but note a sudden silence on the part of the conservative status-quoists on this thread.
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I'm betting the whole problem (if it's even being called a problem yet) can be traced to the last two years where the Dems held a slim, non-veto proof, majority. That or it's Obama's fault... or Clinton's... or Carter's... Johnson? Who knows? One thing's for sure it won't be the the borrow and spend GOP it'll be those damned tax and spend liberals. Edit: As I finished this post this song hit my shuffle. For some reason it seemed fitting, not really sure why, just did- Come in here, dear boy, have a cigar. youre gonna go far, fly high, Youre never gonna die, youre gonna make it if you try;theyre gonna love you. Well Ive always had a deep respect, and I mean that most sincerely. The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. oh by the way, Which ones pink? And did we tell you the name of the game, boy, we call it riding the Gravy train. Were just knocked out. we heard about the sell out. you gotta get an Album out, You owe it to the people. were so happy we can hardly count. Everybody else is just green, have you seen the chart? Its a helluva start, it could be made into a monster if we all pull together As a team. And did we tell you the name of the game, boy, we call it riding the Gravy train. |
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It's a sad fact of our time that the news media is so very biased, biased to it's core, which can fool people into thinking that because they're both biased, they're both equally wrong or both equally reasonable to each side. I'm afraid, though, that Olbermann and BillO do not occupy opposite sides of the same coin. Limbaugh and Huffington are not equal but opposite. /threadjack |
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If so do you think the situation is a crisis? If you do what do you think the solution should be. Quote:
After Bush's handling of 9-11 I started watching/reading Micheal Moore, Keith Olbermann, Al Franken more and more. I'd started fact checking people on the right and was pretty pissed off. I think somewhere in the back of my head I figured if these guys are lying those guys must be telling the truth. Not so. I don't think their level of, or quantity of, lying matches that of Fox News, I don't even think they try to hide it anymore. But they (the left's talking heads) make shit up too. I've watched Countdown many times I have seen him take facts or comments completely of of context. I don't like Bush Jr. even slightly but I seen him speak in the afternoon and then end up on Oldbermann only to have what he said cut to the point it's not even close to what he was saying. Oldbermann's recently taken to throwing up poll numbers and making claims like "that's a 15 point swing." I hit pause and no Kieth, unless you failed 3rd grade math that's and 8 point swing. I met Micheal Moore, have a picture of he and I shaking hands. I liked what he was saying. Until you fact check it it makes sense. I remember watching "Roger & Me" years ago. I liked it, he's kind of funny in it and it points out some pretty screwed up stuff. The film pretty much launched him into the national spot light. The main premises of the film is him trying and repeatedly failing to get an interview with GM CEO Roger Smith. You watch has he tries and tries, failing each time. It's like watching an old episode of Gillian's Island. You just know at the end of the show they'll still be stuck on the island and Gillian will be to blame. Only in this case he won't get the interview and Roger will be to blame. It makes the movie fun and funny. And it makes sense until you find out he did interview Roger Smith for the film and simply left it out. Putting it in would have ruined the entire premise Mike was selling. Lying by omission is still lying Mike. So basically Moore's first film was based on a lie. |
so what it looks like is that the administration has no idea what to do really but thinks it important to get congressional approval for it.
they waited so long to do anything beyond react that they are now in a position of making reaction into a virtue, so telling congress: we don't know but give us the umlimited power to figure it out...is a marketing thing. yes Everybody, what we're proposing here is Big. given its appalling performance, i would not give the bush administration unlimited authority to clean dogshit off my lawn. the Magickal Debt Absorption Machine they are proposing is a curious thing because it is to magically absorb debt the amount of which no-one seems to actually know. the assumption seems to be the Bad Apple theory writ very very large. if, as this analysis and most others clam, Rough Week, But America's Era Goes On - washingtonpost.com the origin of this is collapsing house values in the united states, then what do you think should or even can be done to address this? if the problem is that the mortgage crisis has happened because unregulated lending practices has exposed the banking system to the social consequences of the reconfiguration of production under neoliberalism, to the wobbliness of the distribution of decent=paying jobs, to the untenability over even the medium term of the american model of doing things as it has unfolded since reagan, what should be done? do you really think that the Magickal Debt Absorption Machine is adequate? it seems to me that it addresses symptoms and not causes, and symptoms that affect the institutions whose lunatic actions in the context of deregulation are amongst the two main causes for this mess in the first place (the other being--i think---the implications of allowing corporate organization to mirror the nature of capital flows, to become deterritorialized, so that profits are unhinged from any social relation which might obtain in any particular region where actual people live---and the rationale for it is cheap-ish consumer goods and easy debt availability)---it looks to me like a bubble, but a much bigger and different one that what we've been talking about, which follows the way this crisis has been framed in limiting it to the collapse of the derivatives market. personally, i think that the proposed mechanisms should unfold in multiple stages and that should be built in--at least at the level of outline--into what congress is being asked about. maybe the Magickal Debt Absorption Machine can be legitimated as a stop-gap, the meaning of which is more psychological (the Appearance of Doing Something) than material... i think it not unreasonable to convene an international-level commission---perhaps working out of the G8 perhaps out of the united nations---certainly not under the auspices of either the imf (where is the imf on this?) and world bank, which are the simple arms of neoliberalism at this point, a neoliberalism which is THE problem---the commission should probably formally bury neoliberalism, maybe have a little party for it, and outline steps that can be taken to basically transform the ways in which transnational capital flows are regulated, perhaps with an idea of encouraging something like economic planning in some sectors, not least of which is a plan to encourage a different, more coherent distribution of decent jobs for people. that way you could re-hinge credit to something. but this seems partial, early sunday morning over an initial cup of coffee type stuff. what do you think should be undertaken at this point? from where you sit, how would you think the problems we are watching unfold on tv as this mini-series i like to call "the financial catastrophe show"--should be approached. how far would intervention have to go to stabilize things? what direction should we be heading in? personally, i think not only is neo-liberalism done but the era of the nation-state is probably cooked as well, so we are basically confronting a situation that will result in some new forms of transnational regulation, which will require some new forms of transnational enforcement. so whaddya think? have a cup of joe and be bravely speculative about this. it's not like what we think matters in the bigger scheme of things, so we should be free with it. |
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Although it's probably a matter for another thread, I agree that the hackery among the commentator-media on both sides of the line is appalling. |
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Then the pundits say that no one knows how long this will last because they don't know how much lower real estate will go. Is it so hard to figure out that prices will drop to the point where the average person can afford them? As far as what to do now that we are in this mess, I guess the "Magical Dept Absorbtion Machine" is necessary to stop a short term free fall in the markets. Capitalism is supposed to reward those who make good decisions and punish those who make bad decisions. I know this probably doesn't jive with the "neoliberalism" view but I wish there was some way to at least make those responsible for these loans, tranches, derivatives etc.. take some losses like the rest of us. |
Maybe we could move more towards Chinese capitalism, whereby if you, as a capitalist, fuck up too badly you get executed.
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Sampling the Sunday morning talking heads infomercials I heard a couple things over and over- For the right- "it's not a complete loss, the tax payers will get something for their money." and for the left- "this is maintaining privatization of the gains while burdening the tax payers with the losses." It seems, from what little attention I paid, both sides have their talking points down. I don't know who's being more truthful. To be honest I doubt they themselves have much of a clue. I fear the left is being more realistic. Yet hope the right is, well, right. I know I'm tried of watching the CEO's of these failing financial giants leave with millions after running the companies into the ground. While the share holders (yes, I've taken a few hits, who hasn't?) are left holding a fraction of what they once had. It's also extremely hard to watch the worker bees collect their belongings in cardboard boxes and head for the subway while knowing many in upper management left via the helo pad on the roof. Edit: Found this at ABC news. I have to say if you're a conservative candidate for POTUS and you loose George Will you've got problems. http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5849844 |
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In regards to your other comments, I don't know who George Will was for before but it seems obvious that it is not McCain now. Other members of the panel questioned whether McCain's age was the reason for making so many errors in judgement last week but I think it probably has more to do with his campaign wanting to do something without having to explain why McCain voted in the past against financial reforms. |
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Keith Olberman is one of the worst. He was really bad at sports commentating and it doesn't surprise me he left sports to go into politics. What a tool. I would rather hear Charles Barkley commentate on politics than that hack Olberman. -----Added 21/9/2008 at 03 : 57 : 19----- Quote:
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well, rather than bother to define democratic socialism again, i'll just leave you to twist, jorgelito...
meanwhile, this just appeared on the ny times front page and is kinda interesting. i have to go, so i'll only say 1. the key point i think is buried about half-way down: what exactly *is*an "american bank"? travel along this direction and you'll see why i think nation-states are cooked, it's just a matter of time. meanwhile, it looks like a whole lot of chickens may be coming "home" to roost here--and it should be clearer why letting this take it's course was not an option--the credibility of the united states is obviously on the line here: Quote:
meanwhile, if there's an actual thing/bill to be implemented, it is not at all sure what it is or if anything will happen before tomorrow. there are hearings scheduled for wednesday about the content of the proposal--i'd be surprised if anything happens before that. but i've been wrong before, and will be again. either way, tomorrow should be an adventure. |
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I have been thinking about this and I don't think this is the end of neoliberalism... it will (try to) rise again. The ideology is entrenched (as we can see in this thread).
It will enjoy the bailout and then wait for the right time to strike. Probably when our economies are struggling under the debt load that has been added thanks to the bailout. |
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