Women Are Expected To Be Perfect?
 

My dear ladies,

Perfectionism is screaming at me from all venues lately... i'm supposed to be the perfect professional, have a perfect body (which means all my ribs should show and i should not eat more than rice cakes/sarcastic), the perfect hair, always have my makeup done, always dress nicely or i'm 'giving up on myself...'

I'm getting a lot of these kind of 'be perfect' messages from people, media and even my boss--who told me last week i look much better with makeup on and should consider wearing more...
keep in mind, me wearing makeup has nothing to do with my job... :confused: I'm not working with the public or a sales rep. I'm a respite care provider.

I've lost some weight in the past year and everyone comments... 'oh, you look so much Better...' gee thanks, did i look like such a bum before? There is the implied truth that i wasn't okay the way i was... and if i lose more weight... i'm 5'5" and 134lbs... will i be percieved as 'even better' than i am now?

I feel like since i graduated college, i'm starting to crumple under the pressure of what's expected of me as a 'woman out in the world now... no longer a student'


Questions for you:

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?

sweetpea

It is interesting to mention make up at work. I work in a restaurant and feel like the light make up I occasionally wear melts off of me while I am going 100 miles an hour! My co-workers and boss mentioned to me that I always look better with make up. I don't really think there is that much difference but they can think that if they wish. As for the mirror question, I have struggled with how I look in the mirror for years. For a very, very long time, I would avoid my reflection in every reflective surface I would pass. It has just been in the last couple of months that I am starting to take control of my reaction when I see myself in the mirror. It still isn't great but I stop myself from saying self-destructive comments to myself.
I do think there is an ideal image for a woman. I think there has always been an unattainable ideal for women, the goal has just changed over time. I think there is an ideal for men as well but it comes more from the 'go get them tiger' mental side of things where as we deal with the physical side more often.
I think I present myself well professionally. I am in a pretty lax environment so the bar isn't set too high for me.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?

Very ugly creature and cant understand why anyone would like me

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
there are super models displayed in every ad, and the easy accessibility of porn- yes I know the models are airbrushed - but it's the expectation that these women look like this - -ergo all women should look like that and there's something wrong with you if you dont


And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
some women do - and some women don't care and have enough confidence int hemselves to let that not caring be attractive and shine forth (note all the women, including yourself, that post in exhiibition)

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
not me

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
Not at all... professionally, I used to be - but my company has been in such turmoil for the past two years -- part of me says - bail out and do something else - but the other part of me says you were there from the very beginning - you have to see it thru til the end...

I think I am happy in that regard, because I do the best I can with the resources I have decided to allot, and let go of the rest.

You may be dissatisfied because I detect a hint of the horrible monster Comparison in your thoughts.

There will always be others more "this" or less "that". Can't compete with them all, better to make them your friends, if you can. :) Also, to repeat a cliché, we are always our own worst critics. And those you percieve as achieving more very likely don't see themselves that way at all.

Are you certain it's a constant message of "Be perfect" others are sending...or is that just what you are hearing?

*I hug you*

Thank you ColonelSpecial for your comments and good for you about taking charge of how you feel about your image :icare:

You made a good point about the typcial men's ideal vrs. the typical women's ideal... it just seems like i can't just be good at my job... but i have to look perfect too while doing it... as far as i know, that's not expected of men.

sweetpea

There is someone i am comparing myself to. And she is Literally the PERFECT professional... always efficient, always with intelligent advice on every thinkable work subject... not to mention, she presents herself perfectly in her phsyical appearance, indeed, she always looks like she just stepped off the pages of Vogue (and i am not kidding here). So i know it's possible for some women to be the perfect professional woman... and it's not so much comparison, but that i feel that's what a professional woman should be....
Well, it is this one woman for sure... and it's also the comments my boss has been making that have been affecting me...
You are a sweetheart, thanks :)
[QUOTE]That's wonderful, i hope to be there someday. Was there ever a time when you didn't feel happy? and how did you overcome it?
Aka, how did you silence the 'perfection' monsters? :)

sweetpea

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
-- I see *me*... that is, someone with unique features, high cheekbones, dark hair, honest eyes, and a well-shaped face. Unless I have been crying lately!... then I see a frog-faced woman with blotches on her face. :lol: The times when I am most critical of my face are when I haven't been taking care of my facial hair (something I only started doing in my early-mid 20s, anyway, so I get lazy).. bleaching the moustache and plucking the eyebrows. Those things stand out to me, if I know I have to leave the house... :p

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
-- I guess you mean the bar of looking good in public? Cultural influence and sexual selection (evolution), I guess. Although honestly, I think the bar is set high, but only certain women will try to live up to it... and I never want to be one of those women, I guess. Sure, I try as hard as the next woman to get rid of any culturally-undesirable hair on my body... but I also do it because it makes me feel good about myself, not because some guy wants it that way (usually it's women who notice that stuff more than men!... my bf never really cares about that stuff). :icare:

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
-- Successful in what sense? At creating an image of themselves that is not real? Again, I'm not sure if I ever want to "succeed" in that sense. It is hard to go against the social programming we have in the Western world, but let me tell you, standards of beauty are NOT universal. This knowledge helps me care a little less about what everyone on the street thinks of me. E.g. women in Zambia don't give a rat's ass about shaving or plucking hair... but there are other standards of beauty there, and somehow those standards feel more real to me than the ones we have here.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
-- Not me! But I am a graduate student. When I was teaching high school, I was forced to live up to this image a little more... I had to buy professional clothes and shoes, and had to do my hair and makeup each morning. But it didn't come naturally to me, never has... the only reason I did it was to portray an image different from that of a student, since I needed to assert authority. Also, it helped me "feel" more professional, once I dressed the part. But any given weekend, I would be back in my jeans and t-shirt as quick as possible. :)

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
-- Well, I have never been a style queen, that's for sure! I put myself in the "dorky" category long ago, and have been content with that for some time, once I realized that my real friends didn't care how I dressed. I guess as I have gone through my 20s, I have tried to be a *little* more style-conscious and professional :lol: (at least I don't wear rowing sweats to class every day anymore) but nothing that would break my budget. I guess I try to match somewhat :lol: and make sure my hair doesn't look like Medusa... but my default is still jeans, shirt/sweater, practical shoes, and a ponytail (or at least low-maintenance hair). I wear the minimum of make-up possible, enough to help me look like I am not freshly risen from the dead. :lol:

Oh my god, she works in your department, too??? :lol: Yeah, occasionally I get envious/resentful of That Woman in my department, but in the end, I don't really give a damn because I wouldn't really want to *be* her. Because then I wouldn't be me. :)

And the same goes for you, Sweetpea... you are an incredibly unique person, and we all appreciate your presence and personality (and pics on Exhib! You are beautiful and brave!) here on TFP. Why would you want to be as ... unoriginal as that woman you work with? Try hard to see yourself as WE see you... and as your husband sees you, I am sure. And know that if that woman inhabited the realm of TFP, she would probably be boring as hell. :D

I discovered years ago that its just to exhausting to me to try to do the "perfect" thing and I had better things to do than a 24 hour regime of perfectness....paid off to cause my friends, family, husband and daughter think Im "perfect" now, even when I wake dave up in the morning with bed hair and a splotchy non made up face.

society tries to teach us that men want us to look, dress and feel perfect 24/7 and in my experience the men that ACTUALLY think that, are not men I'm interested in.

What do I see when I look in the mirror? I see someone who can never do anything with her hair, who always wishes her make up looked like it does on make up commercials and had a look of dread because I know I have to take care of facial hair because I cant afford laser stuff and Im allergic to every damn "hair removal" product in the world except a razor and tweezers and stretch marks left from child bearing. But...then Dave comes and gives me a hug and tells me how beautiful I am to him and all those thoughts just go out the window.

No way "that" woman would have time in her perfect day for us :lol:

No, she doesn't work with me ... thank goodness ;)

sweetpea

Well,I'm not hatin' on her at all... she's really great. she's not a bad person... she's just perfect... that's what i mean, she's also funny and sweet too!? i mean... how can one woman have all those qualities? seems inhuman :lol:

sweetpea

thanks for giving your input :icare: :) And you're right, it is exhausting to try to be this person all the time and i end up feeling like i'm failing a lot.

[/QUOTE]

damn, you are lucky.

I've got some diff. issues going on i guess, not sure if i feel like getting into them ... it's just this comment from my boss about my makeup and this amazing perfect proffessional woman i know were just kinda the last two straws this week :crazy:

sweetpea

have you ever stopped to think that she just happens to fit YOUR definition of perfection? (where as she might not to someone else? for example...I dont consider that looking like a vogue model is perfect...I hate vogue lol)

so true.

I guess i am fucked up? :)

no hope for me............................

sweetpea

no you're not (read the edit I made to the post above yours)

why would you think that your perception is fucked up? its YOUR perception.

Same as I think men look perfect in kilts....and well quite frankly lots of other people are of the opinion that they look down right silly...does that make me or them fucked up? no, its just a difference of opinion.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
Its certainly easy to hone in on the imperfections while completely overlooking the more attractive aspects. I actually took down a large decorative mirror I had hanging in the dining room because I found myself looking at it and primping before I headed out the door. It drove me nuts! What I've found is that you need to make friends with the mirror, this is YOU this what you were given and there is a higher purpose to it all. The mirror gives a rather skewed view as to who you really are and the image you portray. So much about a person lies in their mannerisms, individual quirkiness and personality that beauty is merely icing on an already tastey cake. Any person of value will perceive you this way.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
Since we've evolved from merely surviving the day to day, we've also had a lot more time to become more shallow and vain. While the media does affect the standard for beauty, women as whole, are more artful creatures who can be painted, primped, fluffed and trussed.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful).
A lot it comes off falsely as an effortless act and thats part of the illusion.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
The irony of this is that you think that you aren't but you are.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
I am super critical of myself and a perfectionist, so I often have trouble letting go of the things I can't tame and let it eat at me affecting my happiness. I look around me, at REAL, every day people and there's no one I want to be, no one I envy. My friends are all very thin (there's this whole anorexia thing going on in my peer group, if you're bigger than a size 4 you're fat and out of control. I weigh about 20-30 lbs more than my little friends, i have breasts and they have all starved themselves flat). I look and feel so much more attractive than I did in my early 20's and I'm also gained a lot of wisdom and knowledge along the way to add to my "beauty".

I want to start off by saying that 'That woman' can't possibly be as perfect as she appears. There is always something about a person that makes them imperfect. Even the people, who you think look incredible, are worried if they look ok or think that they look terrible at times. And who knows, maybe you are 'that woman' to someone else. ;)
Now to answer your questions:

Questions for you:

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it? If you asked me this a few years ago, I would answer much differently than today. Back then I hated myself so much that looking in the mirror would drive me close to suicide. But today after a lot of work on my inner-self, I typically like what I see. I'm not perfect by any means. I have blemishes, scars, and other imperfections, but I'm me and I have accepted them. There are days where I feel blah and think I'm just a hideous pile of flesh and bone, but most days I don't mind looking at myself at all.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women? One word: MEDIA

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
NO! These women in the media aren't perfect. Airbrushing and makeup and other tricks of the trade make them look so good. I think confidence in yourself will give you the appearance without all the extra work and headaches.


Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
I think that I am in the capacity that I'm confident in myself and know how to carry myself. I love fashion, so dressing professionally and doing make-up is fun for me. I don't see it as hard work and I don't do it for anyone but myself. Although looking good for jj is a bit of my motivation, but I don't see that as a duty or feel pressure from him to dress a certain way.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
I have come along way and I'm generally happy with myself. I was out of shape and was letting myself go after marriage and starting my carreer. However, now that I'm settled and exercising more, I feel that I am where I want to be. I don't kill myself and I eat whatever I want in moderation. I don't push to be super-skinny or to be the 'perfect' woman. I'm confident in myself and I dress and present myself in a way that makes me happy. If I live to please other people, I would be miserable and that's not fun.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
I see myself as getting older and in need of some serious facial intervention. I see gravity taking over. I see someone who very soon no one will want.
Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
Models. Playboy magazine. Porn. Youth. Double edged sword, really. Men are quick to point out a woman's attributes and we in reality take it to heart.
And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
For every woman that complains about her kids and her spouse, there's another sitting home alone wanting someone to share her life with. For every woman single and living large but feeling so alone there's a woman with three screaming kids and a past due mortgage wishing she were single. We can only live up to our own potential. The rest is fantasy.
Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! ) HAH! I have an aunt who owns a very successful modelling/ acting agency in NY. She's rich-stinking rich. She came from literally nothing. Dresses like a homeless woman. She can be a real scatter brain. Success is different things to different people. I may never be the book version of 'successful', but I refuse to be a failure.
How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally? I am never satisfied with how I present myself, although I'm told I do so very well (go figure). Professionally-I'll let you know when I become a professional...at..something.

It's interesting that you bring this up. I've been going through the same things in my head after seeing a recent fantastically done thread. We know it's wrong to envy and second guess, but we do it anyway. We doubt our own contributions to our worlds, sometimes giving up on them. It is those times that I fall back on the things I KNOW I do well. Logic tells us we aren't in competition with anyone. Emotions tell us we are. Know what you contribute to your world is worthwhile and and that 'perfect person' has flaws too. She just wears more make-up ;)
:icare:

Finally my extensive training in women's studies is paying off (all 3 weeks of it).

Why is the bar set so high for women?
There is no equality, women are the largest minority group out there, the competition for men is rough, so, in order to get the job a man would normally get quite easily a woman has to match or exceed education and skill. And she has to look the part. Sophisticated, flawless. She needs to be the best in every way...wrong I know. (can you tell I've been doing a lot of feminist theory?)

Can women live up to this?
That depends, can a woman excersise and eat well? Yes. Can a woman apply make up and style her hair?" Usually Can a woman dress in a style that tidy and neat? yes. But when you're working 40+ hours a week, doing double duty and have bills to pay and children to get off to school at 7 a.m. it can be nearly impossible. In theory, they can, in practise, not so much.

Though I am not a professional, when I'm going out or going to class I make the effort to put on pants (not sweatpants or pajamas), I brush my hair and apply make up. Appearance is very important to me so I maintain mine in a way that someone who isn't as into fashion or make up might not.

However, I think that those who are seeking out employment in the "professional" world should be judged based on their education and skills and not cheekbones and mascara.

Edit: I just saw the perfect example, I had to get out of bed and post haha.

A commerical for Ziploc, the bags that you dont have to pinch and check to make sure they're sealed. The woman using the generic brand has a more matronly figure, is a little bit older and dressed in frumpy clothes. However, the woman using the Ziploc bags is young, very trim and dressed in dark jeans and a nice top, this didn't have in one of the ads but two different ones. It's funny how you don't notice this stuff until you really watch the advertisement.

But there it is, the perfect example of how primed and polished women are seen as having it "together" even if it is just keeping peppers fresh.

Let me just say that this is a great topic, and one that should be addressed more often. You don't know how sick I am of seeing models and hearing guys talk about models. They are so brainwashed into what a woman should be.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?

Usually crap. I've been trying to think more positive though. I don't agonize over every blemish or imprefection but just try to tell myself that I'm cute and a good person. It just brings me down afterwards when I go out into the world and just don't get the same attention a more attractive woman may receive. No looks, boyfriends, date, whatever.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?

I concur. The MEDIA. I can't even turn on Much Music/MTV anymore, I'm so disgusted.

And can women really live up to this?

I'm sure some could if they really wanted to go insane.. but I don't think we should even try. Just be your own person. Don't want to wear makeup, then don't wear makeup. Most men don't 'enhance themselves' (As far as I know).

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women?

I'm not raising my hand for this one. And I don't know anybody that is. More reason to believe that this whole 'image' is fake. I'll wear clean clothes and take care in the colors I choose to wear, but there's no way I'm trying to be perfect. It's just too unattainable.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?

Technically with everything I've said above, I guess you'd expect a yes, but sadly it's a no.. And I guess that's because I have low self esteem and don't have really any friends because of that. I'm also not where I'd like to be professionally. I just hope one day things work out.

Questions for you:

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?

Depends on the time of the month :) If my skin is fairly clear (at the moment, it's shot to shit), my hair is reasonably tame, and I look awake, I think I'm gorgeous! But if I look blotchy, my hair is dead or froofy, and I look tired, I tend to think, "Hun, you could use a nap, a blow-out, and a facial."

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?

Media. It really has nothing to do with men. Most men, if they love us, love us the way we are. They don't want us to be Claudia Schiffer.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)

Oh, sure. But it takes far more effort than I'm willing to exert on behalf of my appearance. My appearance is tertiary when compared to my intelligence and personality. I'd rather put those first. I'm really not willing to spend constant hours in the bathroom applying make-up, and I'm really super unwilling to spend countless hours at the gym trying to get the "perfect" body. It is, to me, a waste of time.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )

Shit, no. Sure, I work in an office, but I work graveyard (ugh) and the job I do requires childcare. Do you think I want baby spitup on my nice shirts? No thanks. I usually settle for comfy jeans and a t-shirt versus attempting to look professional. Perhaps if I worked day shift, that would be different, but I highly doubt it, given the childcare aspect of the work I do. However, when I do practicum work in classrooms, I do put extra effort into appearing professional, because for someone my age high school students equate a professional look with adulthood. If I showed up in my jeans and a t-shirt for a student teaching job, I wouldn't be taken seriously as an authority figure. So there professionalism of the highest order is a must.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?

Yes. I was actually thinking about this today because my SO and I were out with some friends, and while we were out an acquaintance of his came up to our group. Now, this girl is your perfect example of the skinny blonde bimbo type who's perfectly put together right down to her manicured toenails. For a minute I felt slightly inferior but then I found out she pays guys to do her homework for her (which offends me). Then I was thinking how much credit card debt she must be in to maintain such a look (or else highly dependent on her parents). I wasn't jealous of her by any means, mostly because my SO is soooo not into that kind of look (when I get dressed up/wear make-up he whines because "it looks unnatural"), and honestly, I know I clean up well--I just choose not to. So yes, I am happy with how I present myself to the world, in all the ways I choose to do so.

Now, if only I could get my skin to cooperate...my hair is doing quite nicely today...but given the time of month, I'm getting ready to give up on the skin front...

This is a very interesting topic. I think all women deal with this in one way or another. So if we all hate this high-maintenance, high-stress image that society (or men) try to impose on us, why do we battle with it every day? I have to be totally honest and say that, sometimes, I DO want to look like "that woman" and hear compliments and have life a little easier. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to want...

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?

I, like most girls here, have had phases. I have hated myself a lot. Now I am at a point in my life where I am sure I'm not that bad. I have great days, and I have worse days. But that's ok. I am not perfect, and that's the way it is. I am happy with what I have, because I feel pretty good generally about my physical appearance, and also about who I am emotionally and as a person. I believe that I am a good person with my feet on the ground and some good ideas and talents in me, and I feel that I have enough to be happy more often than I am sad. Although that is not only the case, but of course it doesn't only depend on me all the time.


Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?

Media is a big part of it, I agree. I think also that we allow society to do this to us. It's a hard thing to fight, true. And sometimes, deep down, we want to be like those airbrushed perfect successful people.

And can women really live up to this?

I don't think any women REALLY in all truth do. The ones who appear to be "more perfect" do a better job with the appearance of things. Of course some people are more capable than others. But when they go home, perhaps their home isn't always sparkling and they will occasionally wear slobby clothes when they are alone, and fart even if it's ONLY in the bathroom with no one around. We're all human, we're all real.


Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women?

Well not me. But like I said I have good days and worse days. But I know that I can look pretty damned good when I try. And when I apply myself I can do a pretty good job at whatever it is. I have skills and talent. It is enough for me to know how great I can be but to allow myself to be real and relaxed in ordinary day-to-day things. I think also that it's an asset to be able to do both and not always be perfect. Can you imagine how annoying being married to a perfect woman could be? She certainly would not be the most forgiving person.


How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?

I am happy with some things. I need to exercise more, for my health above all. I would like to feel a little more in shape, but I'm slim which is already halfway there. I need to eat better too. I like my food way too much for my own good. I would like to be able to afford better clothes, but I thing I present myself well for my job. I don't wear much make-up and of course when I do I get told it suits me. But that's normal, make-up just accentuates the features you already have and makes them more noticeable.

Above all, I would like to feel that being happy with myself will be enough for someone else to love me. I am at a point in my life where I have decided to do things for myself, and if no-one comes my way who is ready to be open and committed to me 100%, then that's life and that won't stop me from being happy.

I don't know what men want. People say women are complicated but I would say we are more simple because we have a better idea of what we want and stick to it. I'm generalising now, but I feel that so many men say they know what they want but then turn around and find someone or something else, in total opposition to what they have been telling you for ages. I think men are too easily seduced by things around them and don't trust their own better judgement. Often with disastrous results. This could be material for a new thread - What DO men want?

There's a recent journal entry by a young man where he rants about how his friends don't think that the girl who currently has his eye on his hot enough for him... He's basically said fuck that -s he's cool - i like who i like...

I'm not hating on men here -- I love men - they are one of my favorite genders... but I really wonder about the mindset where boys think that there is a standard of hotness that they are entitled to?

I was bitching at work the other day about the sense of entitlement that some people have... not hot girlfriend wise... but in perques of the job and other things - things that people expect even though they cost money and really aren't part of the job-- it's an entitlement... Where does this atttitude come from?

I can't even blame a specific age group - I'd love to blame it on the mindset of the younger than me generation that people can do anything they want - and you didn't fail a class, you didn't get a bad grade--a world of no consequences - where mommy told them they werea superstar and they beleived it... but it's also people who were raised in the world that you didn't do the work - you failed - period.. the end...

I'm not sure where the sense of entitlement comes from where any person feels that the person they want to have a relationship with must meet a certain level of hotness.. isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder? Isn't a person supposed to be worth more than just what they look like?

I almost feel like paraphrasing Dr King... I want to be judge not for what I look like, but for the content of my character...

and for the record, our intrepid journaller gets a gold star for his response... :)

I have a lot of self-image problems because of overwhelming pressures from the media and my family life growing up. So, I'll answer these questions.

---
How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it? I see myself as short and dumpy. My gut pooches just a little too much, I hate my stretchmarks, my acne scars will never fade, and my thighs and butt are too gross.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women? Because it always has been. Women have always been seen as sexual property to men for as long as we've been around. We've made advances, but as you all know, the standards are still set high.

And can women really live up to this? Some women are naturally "media-style" beautiful, so they can live up to this standard.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? Not I. I refuse to wear makeup, which most are amazed at. I think it's disgusting, and I'm not going to disguise myself by wearing a clown's attire (AKA makeup).

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally? I present myself very positively in the eyes of other workers and my customers. Physically, I probably need a little work. However, I'm lucky because my outfit at work is pretty much the same for every person (black/white shirt with black/brown pants).
---

Anyway, what I've learned in my short time here on Earth is don't let others define your happiness. You should always strive to be healthy and beautiful in your own way- and if this means a little more weight than the stick-thin beauty queens you see on TV, then DO IT. And don't let ANYONE bring you down.

I know what you mean by it coming from the media. There's a commercial playing right now that I absolutely loathe because I look at it at it makes me feel a little small, unattractive every time. It's an advertisement for contacts, I think, that has a strikingly attractive young Asian woman wearing a pair of glasses, and being criticized by her friends because of how they make her look, while I'm looking at her and thinking she's as beautiful in the glasses as without.

What makes it sting a little bit is that the glasses are nearly identical to the ones I wear most of the time, the black plastic-framed ones in my profile picture. It's weird because I look at the actress in the commercial and see that she's just as attractive with the glasses as without, but it still makes me question those days I just don't want to bother with the contacts. Sissy says the glasses make me look younger somehow, but can't put her finger on it.

Questions for you:

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?

Negatives: Skinny, flat-chested (32A), hips too small (30), skin too pale, chin far too prominent, wide mouth, upper lip far too wide, narrow lips, misshapen nose (too thin on the bridge, too wide at the nostrils), bat ears, eyes too deeply and widely set, brow ridge too prominent, cheeks so puffy that my cheekbones dissapear when I smile (which is why I try not to do that, particularly in pictures, which I hate anyway).

Positives: Tall but not too tall, nicely toned legs and abs, thin enough to wear anything that doesn't require a large bust or hips. Long thin neck.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?

It's partly a remnant of the culture from prior to the revolution that women more freedom to be independent and professional and go out into the workforce as other than secretaries, teachers, and nurses.

Until relatively recently, a woman's job was to land a good husband to provide for her, and consumer culture was built up around that idea. Even those women who worked tended to do so only until they found a husband. To that end, those things that would make her more attractive to potential mates became what the culture told her she she pursue. The market being there for makeup, women's clothes including lingerie, and so forth, and that being the primary arena in which women were expected to be consumers, the marketplace began competing for those dollars. It became not just a competition over market share, but a competition to define the terms of what a woman is supposed to be, supposed to want. When you can define the terms, you're in a much stronger position as a marketer than someone who merely accepts the marketplace as is.

So we end up with a pop and consumer culture that's centered around defining what a woman is, what makes her attractive, what she is supposed to be, and people tacitly accepting the cultural standards of beauty.

Women entering the workforce in larger numbers didn't change this, it just layered new things, new expectations on top of it. A business woman is expected to be assertive, but not aggressive, feminine, but not too feminine--notice that a woman's business suit is essentially a man's suit with a skirt replacing the slacks--and still are expected to fill the same roles as they were in the 50's, but with new responsibilities layered on top.

So we end up with professional expectations layered on top of the expectation that one look and act right to get a man, even though those two goals are contradictory, the criteria for each are still in play.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)

Sure it's possible. I work with a woman who's like That Woman described in previous posts. I've mentioned here a few times, Dr. KGB; beautiful, poised, professional, respected, fashionable and feminine, two kids, yet always looking like she just stepped off of Oprah's stage after a makeover show. I envy her so much I occasionally have to touch up my makeup to cover the green.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )

I'm certainly nowhere close.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?

I do what I can, but the flaws that are there aren't really anything that can be corrected easily or even effectively. I still debate internally whether I want to get breast implants, and Sissy and Grace are the only two people who've seen me without makeup in many years.

It's difficult, because I know I've bought into the image that the media sets up, but knowing that doesn't change how I feel. I like the way I look better in makeup than without it. I like the way I look in a skirt and heels, and though I'm perfectly comfortable physically, it's a comfort that's come from familiarity and from knowing that I look better that way than in slacks and flats. Thus, I know it's in part that I fit the image I've been fed, but that knowledge doesn't prevent me from feeling better about myself the closer to the image I come. I like looking this way, but that's at least partly because I've been trained to like that image.

Gilda

[QUOTE=la petite moi]
Wow, i've not had someone just come out and say that for some years... that's how my mom feels, but she still wears it sometimes.... I'm glad that there are still women left who don't feel that makeup is a nessasary thing to wear... i still wear it sometimes, when i feel like being a little jazzed up, but only when i feel like it, i try to ignore the pressue i feel the times i don't and just be me. So thanks for putting it so candidly...


:eek: I'm so surprised LPM that you see yourself that way... When i look at you, all i see is a fucking hot girl with an amazing body and gorgeous eyes i would give anything to have .... I see you are one of those women who's got the perfect image, you are "that woman" in my eyes who lives up to the image...
I guess that really illustrates for me that if a gorgeous girl like You doesn't like her body... then how can there be hope for a very average girl like me?


Very well stated! Thank you.

sweetpea

I'm sorry - but exactly on what planet are you considered average? If you are average.. then I definitely need to never leave the house without a burqua... Gimme a break little lady... you are anything but average... :D seriously....

:lol: hehe okay Mal, thank you for the laugh, i needed that. :icare:

I guess i'm just very hard on myself... Victoria Secret Models have ruined me... i suppose i won't see myself as 'good' or 'pretty' until i fit that image or i'm closer to it :rolleyes: it's silly i know... i'm working on letting it go once and for all, but it's still pervasive in my mind.

sweetpea

Average in the Bizarro universe maybe. Here on earth, you're a grade A babe.

Gilda

Sweetpea, you are smoking! I see your pictures and get jealous because you are so beautiful. Your hair is amazing, and your body is so perfect!!!

PS: Thank you for the compliments, too.

Wow! What a thread! This one hits home for me, thanks for starting it. I'm interested in reading the responses.

Honestly answering your questions:

When I look into a full-body mirror, all I see is my fat (5'4" and 130 - much like you Sweetpea!) That little 1/2" that I want to work off, the thighs that have been haunting me forever. When I look into a mirror that shows from the waist up, I see a pretty face and a decent figure.

I honestly have no idea why the bar is set so high.

No one can live up to the ideal all of the time. And this is why: Our bodies are in constant flux. Women tend to hen-pick one another to death, therefore the ideal is always changing. You will never be good enough. And when you are finally comfortable with your appearance, everyone will tell you you're "too perfect" and start picking on your other attributes. Men pick up on this, contribute to the madness, and have their own foolish fettishes to add to the festering heap.

I do not live up to the image, but I do manage to pull it off every now and again. Mainly for job interviews.

Definitely not grouped with those who are generally happy with themselves. Getting more comfortalbe with things. Seems it really started to hit around age 21, when my metabolism started to change.

It's going to pain my boyfriend, Tex, incredibly if he reads this (so lets hope he doesn't) because he is constantly trying to make me see myself as beautiful. I think in the area of features I'm pretty, but I'm definately a little overweight. I've gained a lot since college started six months ago. I have absolutely no idea why the bar is where it is. Men used to like girls with a little weight on them, and I want to know where the public got the skeleton complex from. I don't want to look like a walking corpse so people will find me pretty, but that seems to be what the world wants. I really don't try to live up to the image. Only when I need to feel better about myself do I dress up or if the situation demands it. I am not generally happy with myself, but I'm trying to do better. Tex has tried to help me see how important it is to be yourself, not what society wants you to be.

Men STILL like women with meat on their bones. I was overweight all through college (anywhere from 5'8" 165 to 185) and never had ANY problem getting guys. 8 out of 10 guys want a girl who won't break :) The media has communicated to us this need to be thin to be attractive, but it doesn't hold true when you actually ASK the opposite sex.

Quickie note here, due to time limits for the moment, but I truely believe that the emphasis on being so ridiculously thin comes from Hollywood. Believe me when I tell you that cameras add 5-10 lbs on anyone. Add to that the desire (in media producers) for women to look slender on film, of course. So in order to look thin on film, from every angle one needs to be actually *very* slender. Most actresses are willing to do this in order to get work. And don't forget, some women are this way naturally, too.
Then the General Public sees these actresses and models, and wants to emulate them, not illogically. Then the bar is raised for our *Super Heroines*, to become even more...more beautiful, more thin (poor grammar I know, but it flows better with the thought :P), more...whatever. It becomes a self-motivating spiral.

I'd also like to throw out a caution against villifying (sp?) women who perhaps do fulfill our image of "perfect". It's already been amply illustrated that no one is completely satisfied with their appearance, even if others think they look fantastic, maybe they even could fill that perceived "PERFECT" role for others Right Here On This Board.

Just because a gal may be perceived as *perfect*, or slender, or good at makeup application, or whatever, it's not right to cast dispersions on her. Sure, it might make us feel better to call her shallow, or vain, or self-obsessed...but we actually don't know. *YOU* very well may be *that woman* to others, as much as you may laugh at the thought. OK, so Gilda (please forgive me for picking you as a specific example) is, in her mind, too small. To me, she's slender as a dancer, bringing to mind the elegant beauty of a young Audrey Hepburn, and I know I will *never* look like that. But it's not right for me to say, "OMG, she probably diets herself to distraction and spends all her spare time at the gym to look like that, how shallow!"

There is nothing wrong with working out (or not), or wearing makeup (or not), or looking polished (or not). What makes a difference is our attitude about it.

Bah. I sound like one of those corporate motivational posters.

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I didn't even think of it as casting judgement. I assure you that is not what I had in mind. I know I look at myself judgementally, and I know my beautiful, slender friends do as well. I think I was just putting the emphasis on it so much because it is what everyone seems to obsess over. I know girls who are just naturally slender and I would never accuse them of doing anything harmful to their bodies, or being shallow. In fact I wasn't trying to accuse anyone here of that either. I was simply stating that as a girl who wants to be an actress, it worries me that I could be limited not by talent, but by weight. There are too many types to try to define a perfect one. I guess weight just seems to be my, personal, main concern. I'm sorry if I gave off the wrong idea that I was casting judgement on all slender women with my first post. I just think it's wrong to try to identify a perfect type. So again, if I offended it was not my intention.

You didn't offend... :icare:

and for the record, I'm not sure if we've seen you but Tex is a smart fella if he likes ya... tells you that you are beautiful... then believe him... He's not the type of fella who'd fib to a pretty lady... :) If your weight isn't perfect.. so what... If it makes you uncomfortable, then do something about it - but do it because you want to do it - not because of what you think other people might be thinking... (you need to go buy yourself some pretty new undies... you'll feel a lot better... :D or get Tex to buy 'em for ya - tell him I said so...

Thanks! I might just do that! I like underwear. I'm trying to do something about my weight, but I'm going slow because, you're right, it's about how you feel not what you're told.

Ah Babes, don't fret, that wasn't aimed at anyone in specific.

I understand how for you as an aspiring actress this is a big part of the struggle. It is always frustrating when opportunities may be limited because of something that isn't really all that important. Or when big opportunities are granted to others for superficial reasons.

I think that's another worthwhile thread topic all in itself, actually.

Just saw this thread. You know, when I was growing up people would call me bonerack, twig, skeletal etc. I could go on. I was a skinny little geek and believe me the ribbing I took from my peers was brutal at times.

Now I'm grown up, must say I have a body I am content with (slim) but the point is that I pay attention to what makes me happy, not what depresses me. I have teeth that are a little crooked. Big deal. My hair is naturally curly and at times has a mind of it's own. Big deal. I've got big feet (not even gonna say) and I snore. Loud. Big deal.

I love cheeses burgers and getting drunk from time to time. I walk so that I don't have to go to some stupid gym to keep up with whomever. The bottom line is that I make my decisions, things that make me happy. I look at Charlize Theron, Angelina, Halle berry,..all of them and admire their beauty. I also admire myself.They are who they are. I am who I am.

Not that I'm pointing this at anyone in particular, but I just wish women would ignore the external things they can't control and exploit the internal beings they are, which they can control. I didn't always live for myself but I do now and know that in the end, it ain't gonna make on bit of difference whether the dress I bought in 2002 was a little tight or the piece of cherry cheese cake I ate last night had 1500 calories. It just doesn't matter.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
Honestly, I think I am beautiful. Yeah, I may not be perfect, but I'm not trying to be. I am confident in who I am and whether I do my hair, put on make up, or even put on a bra, I'm still beautiful in my own way. When I look into the mirror I see myself exactly how I am and I cherish each every "flaw" or imperfection, because it is what makes me unique and beautiful.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
Everyone already nailed this one on the head, the media.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
No one can live up to the standard the media set without sacrificing a part of themselves. When you put so much into your outer appearance, you lose a part of your inner beauty, that part that shines through and makes a normal, average looking girl, goregous.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
Probably not, but then again at work I am more concerned with my patients then how I look.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
I am happy with the way I present myself in all aspects of my life, physically. I don't go to work with a ton of make up on or high heel shoes. I go to work in proper attire (usually khakis and a sweater) and the only time I wear make up is when I want to. I do get compliments about how I look nice with make up on, but I don't let it affect me. Of course wearing make up is going to make most women look better in the eyes of some. I think I look good with make up on, so hearing a compliment about it makes sense to me. That doesn't throw up a red flag that I should wear make up every day. I honestly don't care what the people at work think about how I look. As long as I look professional and I do my job professionally I don't really care.

I think I can pretty safely say no woman has ever been jealous of my appearance or thought of me as *perfect*.

For the record, I don't do anything to stay thin. I do work out, but it's for muscle tone, not to lose weight. I actually have to be careful to make sure I always eat enough calories each day, or my weight starts to drop.

Gilda

from a TFP male member who wished me to post his response.

this thread made me think of this quote that I read in Oprah a few months ago:

" are you waiting to be skinnier, thinner, more toned, more tanned, better dressed,sexier,more lovable, nicer, smarter, funnier, or wealthier before you really begin your life? Millions of us are. and it's a complete waste of time. body obsession and the quest for perfection are destroying our lives, and we are willing partners in this destruction." -- Jennifer Weiner


It hit home with me...lol..I just bought the book:

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141..._encoding=UTF8)

and I can't wait to read it...lol


I think I have fewer body issues than most, and I am not a small or excessively pretty girl. I was raised by a staunch feminist mother who made sure I knew that my worth was between my ears and not my body.

I've been circling this thread, and honestly, I just don't know where to start. I might have started with answering the questions in the OP, but I think I'll get to those later when I can more clearly articulate my thoughts. For now, I just wanted to pick out this one thing that stood out to me:
I've noticed this feeling of entitlement as well and I really think the penis is to blame (in concert with the other major culprit: socialization). I say this because I'm a pretty moderate believer in physical/biological/physiological cues' ability to shape our thought processes. How does this explain why there's a trend among men to feel entitled to some arbitrary level of attractiveness (regardless of whether or not he considers himself attractive in comparable ways) in women? Because men are afraid their penises will get soft and this will make them lesser men. Why blame the penis when you can blame all those ugly chicks out there?

I know I just put down a whole big steaming bowl of unsupported assertion, but I can't help but feel that this is operating on some level... almost imperceptibly, but pervasively. To be sure, the way I phrased it would be insulting to most men I know (and probably most men I don't know)... but that's the point. It's not really as harsh or defined as being The Culprit, as I've rather cheekily referred to it already, but I think it's one of those forces out there in the mix. Add to that the concept of schadenfreude and a bunch of other people who are insecure in the same way and you've got yourself a room (real or virtual) full of men who think they have some kind of right to expect every woman to look like [insert favorite attractive famous woman here] to be worth anything.

I could say plenty more, but I think I'll stop here for now. Somebody probably has something to say to me about this. (And if this seems irrelevant... well, I promise this isn't a random threadjack. This is just a small piece of my very elaborate answer to the OP.)

I'm envious of your figure Gilda and i happen to consider it perfect and i'm not just saying that because you're my girly :) I do actually happen to consider you perfect.


sweetpea

Wow, thank you SC for adding some interesting thoughts to this discussion and you've made some good points. In this society where we are so image driven... why do we even say things like 'his or her Level of attractiveness' i mean... what is that? What about who someone is as a person... is it all really about sex? Is that what we're reduced to as human beings? we're all just body parts to be judged?



I started this thread... because my boss expects me to assert myself based on my "appearance" not on who i am. And i have to say... i buy into our society's image a little... i am not immune to wanting to living up to this 'hotness standard'. But the funny thing is... i hold myself to this impossible standard, but i don't hold other people to it. I think people are worthy for Who They Are, not what they look like... but why can't i view myself like that? something i'm working on.

You made a point about it being the fault of the penis ... but I think it goes both ways though. I would like to point out that i've seen women do this too... even though they might not consider themsevles very attractive, they will reject a man for being 'too thin, too big, too short, too....' And what is that? I don't do that. I view someone as a whole package... man or woman... and if i happen to be attracted to the person on a physical level too, then damn, i've just hit the jackpot.

SC, i look forward to hearing your further thoughts on this. :)

sweetpea

from a tfp male member: who i think added some great thoughts.
______________________________________________________________

"I feel compelled to stick up for my gender a little bit here. On the off chance that Supple Cow was 100% serious in her post, I can relate that at least one man (myself) doesn't create media stereotypes or go for women solely because I am afraid my penis will get soft. I'm attracted to people I'm attracted to, period. Sometimes they match conventional ideas of beauty and sometimes they don't.

I think women put more pressure on themselves and each other than men do... I'll offer a couple of points of evidence. Magazines like Maxim and Stuff certainly present an unrealistic picture of a man's "ideal woman". On the other hand, even this presentation makes it clear that the picture painted is purely one of fantasy. I don't think that men read those things and honestly respond by expecting people that they know to be like those women any more than they look at Motor Trend and feel that their Nissan Maxima isn't a good car because it isn't like a Forumula 1 racer. On the other hand, women's magazines such as Vogue, Cosmo, etc. are filled with unrealistic portrayals of women that are more dangerous in that they are shown as a depiction of the "ideal woman". This image isn't just carried in the advertising either, look at the articles. A magazine that pressents tips on how to be that perfect woman is obviously propagating the idea that this ideal is one that women should adopt.

Consider the portrayals of women in Bond films and "chick flicks". Yeah, the Bond chicks are hot, but they are clearly presented in the same over-the-top manner that Bond himself is shown in. However, Meg Ryan, Reese Witherspoon et al are shown in a way that encourages people to expect that from those that they know in their real lives.

Most (admittedly not all) of the men that I know are capable of separating a fantasy from their expectations of real people. I think we're far more accepting, and often loving, of women's flaws than women themselves are. We love you guys, really..."

from another male poster who wanted to offer his thoughts:


"i know this thread is about women being expected to be perfect and not about men but......in reply to a certain poster..... the "ideal" image goes both ways.

You can't point fingers at men when women do it as well. I know and have seen plenty of women comment on a males looks and body parts regardless if they consider themselves as having a perfect body or not. Do they as well think they are entitled to having a male look/have something to be worth a damn?

heck i don't know if i can call some posters here hypocrites or contradictive but i can use a thread here where people were talking about what is the perfect penis as an example of expecting the "ideal". hrmm from what i remember there was one or more posters there making fun of their past partners ..why? Because he wasn't "perfect"???????"

I would like to say that i don't think any posters in here are blaming "men" or saying everything is their fault.

i think that society perpetuates the image that this:
"insert skinny gorgeous model here" is what men want and that sometimes gets tied in with what women think men actually want. We are responding to that image that the media puts out there for us.

As for me... no, i've never left someone because i didn't think they were "perfect" Like i've said... i look at the whole package.

My breakups have all happened because i was not compatible personality-wise with them, not because of any 'perfection' issue.

I expect the people i'm interested in to be good, kind and intelligent people.
^^ those are my top qualities i look for, and if i'm also attracted to them physically, then wow, i'm sold on the person :icare:

any other ladies who would like to offer their thoughts? :)

sweetpea

We were just talking about this again at the rehearsal dinner for the wedding I am in sunday. A couple of the girls in the wedding with me ...are what we as women perceive men to think as perfect. Tall, skinny as hell, gorgeous long blonde hair, and just plain beautiful. And there are a couple like me...just normal..lol. My husband and a few other of the men were very serious when I commented on how GORGEOUS they looked in their cocktail dresses....and all of them respnded "not really...she has no ass..she looks she needs a sandwich, and really I prefer your dark redhair to blonde"

I ,of course, was just like "shut up she is perfect"...and they looked at me like I was insane and went on eating.

I honestly think it is US as women who put it on ourselves that we should be perfect, and what perfect is. I think the majority of men are not looking at those women we so admire and thinking the same thoughts as we are...about how perfect she is. I have found even in myself, that I dress for other women, not for men. I want the women to look at me and desire to be like me, and not the other way around for a change.

Thank you Vercua for offering your thoughts. :icare:

any other tfp ladies want to share... or respond to the male members comments that were posted above?

sweetpea

I tend to be quite honest with myself. I like how soft my skin is, and the way my curves feel. I like the shape of my face, the colour of my hair, and how cute my ears are. I also criticize the largeness of my nose, though I like the shape of it, the double chin I get in photos, and the twenty pounds I should be losing for health reasons.

I understand that I am who I am, and that there's more to my beauty than the way I look, but sometimes I just want to look like a covermodel.

The bar is only high because we like it there. We look at models and like the way they look, with their airbrushed makeup and thin forms. When we look at magazines, we don't want to see people that look like people we see every day. We want to see people that look like Halle Berry and Paris Hilton and Angelina Jolie, and I don't see this as a necessarily bad thing. The problem begins when we want to translate these fantasy images into a reality for all people.

Some people are able to look like covermodels without huge amounts of effort. Some of these people are lovely, while some of them only look it. Other women are beautiful with a bit of extra weight, or smaller breasts, or imperfect skin.

In real life, beauty is defined by who you are, not what you look like. I'm 5'7 and 170 pounds. I have pockmarks from chickenpox, and stretchmarks all down my thighs and around my sides from growing too fast. I have large, gapped front teeth, hideous feet and a pointy nose...

I'm still told I'm beautiful, and I often believe it.

I'm not covermodel material, and most of the women that you will encounter will not be. The select few that are covermodel material are lucky, but I wouldn't say that they're necessarily more beautiful than those of us that aren't. We're just different.

And just as a reminder... http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97109

I think veruca's on to something with her post... though i'm not sure a lot of women intentionally dress for other owmen -- though unintentionally -- that might be the case.

Many of the women I know tend to be the harshest critics of other women... Men will rarely comment, negatively, when a woman is dressed provatively, or is wearing too much makeup -- or any of the bazillion other catty things that women say to other women...

It's been a long time since i was in high school - but that was brutal - not for the guys - but from the comments that girls would make... Though I'm not excusing some guys from it as well...

Girls seem to use catty comments about other girls to boost their own self esteem -- they tear soemoene else down to make them look good... Where as, some guys, need that "hot" chick on their arm to boost their own self esteem... If both genders stopped worrying about what other people thought... and only were concerned about what was inside themselves... I think we'd all be a bit happier

you and Lauren Hutton... :) you're both beautiful... :D

This TFP fellow is right in suspecting I wasn't being 100% serious in that post because I was deliberately using the language like "blame" and "culprit" to see what kind of response I would receive. I don't actually think that anything is as simple as being able to say, 'I blame the penis for making men afraid to appreciate beauty in other forms than what the media presents.' That said, I am 100% serious about having more discussion in this thread about the deeper issue I addressed: the culture of being male. Just like any culture (and this can be true whether or not you are "born into it"), you can choose to participate or not. Evidence of one member on this board (and many, many more I'm sure) who does not buy into this culture does not mean that the culture does not exist. So, thank you (whoever you are) for chiming in with this - especially because I have an interest in the rest of what you have written - but please don't think that I have been attacking men as a class of people. If anything, I have more of a beef with the culture of maleness than I do with any men who may or may not participate in the culture I describe.

On a meta note, I'm glad that there are men on this board who are reading this and contributing through the women. I hope there is more of it because I see what might be a very constructive discussion about something I have long wanted to address both on the TFP and in my life. In fact, I had hoped to start a discussion like this in the Coming Together forum, but this format (where the male members' participation is anonymous and added to the discussion through a female member) may prove to be more productive in reaching new levels of understanding.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
I have the worst body image of any woman I know. I just do NOT have a realistic idea of what my own body looks like, and I've never been able to look into a mirror without hating what I see.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
Honestly, I think we set it ourselves for the most part. It's based on how we allow feedback from those around us to effect our self image, how we view those in the media, and probably a host of other factors going back to infancy in each of us! IMO, anyway.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
No, I don't think so. I think we all find our own peace with the issue in one way or another. If you see someone whom you believe to be the epitome of everything a woman should be you'd be surprised at how she views herself. Have you ever heard an interview with a super model or actress who expresses surprise and wonder that anyone would find her worth viewing on the big screen? I have. And someone I felt was particularly perfect, too. :-)

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (I’d like to know how!)
Personally, I'd rather like to know how to stop worrying about it. I'm tired of hating myself. I've been trying to be other people's ideas of what I should be for so long that I don't know who _I_ am any more...

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself physically, professionally?
Not me!


Now the posts from the men were incredibly interesting. I've heard those views expressed before, and I have no idea why it's so hard to believe them. I don't mind my DH participating in the cultural phenomenon called porn. I don't mind participating with him on occasion if he so desires. I have admitted to myself that the thing about it that bothers me most is jealousy. Not that I be more like the ladies on the screen/in mags/whatever, but that he prefers to spend time with them. I think that reflects negatively in my own self image. If I were pretty enough, smart enough, sexy enough... If my boobs were bigger, smaller, whatever... If my hips were smaller, if my waist was smaller... All these reasons why he would be more interested in me and less interested in THEM if I were more like them. I think we all just need to hear that we're beautiful the way we are. Repeatedly and from many different sources!! ;-) We want to know how our significant others feel about us, and it's nice to hear how they see us on occasion too. It surprises me, every time I hear it, that my husband finds me appealing in any way. Because I certainly don't find myself to be so.

*How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?*
Sometimes I dont like what i see, but for the most part I am happy with myself.

*Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?*
The only explenation i have is that people are vain and think that in order to be beautiful, you have to look a certain way.

*And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)*
Women can live up to these expectations, but I would rather not. I am doing great not because I have a "perfect" figure and I dont wear makeup all the time, but because I am good at what I do.

*Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )*
Nope, and I dont intend to. I like being me and so does my bf. He loves me for who I am and thinks I look beautiful. On the clothing side is the only side that I prefer looking sharp in a suit as opposed to jeans and a tshirt. Occasionally I do wear makeup, but for the most part, I couldnt be bothered.

*How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?*
I am happy with myself for the most part. I would like to lose some wight, but all in all, I dont want to be skinny. I think a little bit of round is very sexy and curves turn me on. Proffesionally, I do enjoy having my hair look great, my makeup look amazing, and look great in a suit, but for myself only.

Thank you Supplecow, clostgoth and trielle for oferring your thoughts.

SC, i agree with you... i'd like this disucssion to continue. The culture of 'maleness' and the subsequent culture of 'perfection' that is taught to men is certainly something that is pervasive in our society....

Any men who would like to PM me with their thoughts on anything that has been said in this thread... please do.

sweetpea

Regarding media -
The crazy thing is that even the models don't look like the models in the mags. Think about it: First a woman who is considered to be very beautiful and photogenic (*not* the same thing, by the way!) is hired. Then she is surrounded by:
Lighting professionals
Make up professionals
Hair professionals
Clothing professionals
Photography professionals

Then after 100's of photos are taken, the best 3, perhaps, are gone over with photoshop to smooth out the bumps, the pores, the "imperfections" of being human that this model endures. And *those* are the pictures that we see. Several days of effort, teams of highly-specialized professionals, etc.

If we had that, we'd look as good. It's all about presentation, and without that presentation, the actors and models would be pretty much the same as us, give or take.

I know I can't possibly compete with that, so I don't. I've determined how much money, effort, and time I'm willing to expend on various aspects of my appearance, and what my motives are (health? vanity? trying to project a professional image to make the most of opportunities that come my way?), and what realistic expectations I can have, and then I let it go. I have too much life to live to worry (although believe you me, I totally didn't have the same mind-set in my 20's. When I think of all the time I wasted...) about stuff like that.

Regarding men -
I don't know if I mentioned this already, but when guys go shopping, and they're trying on some pants that don't suit them, they say, "These pants are too small/short/whatever." When gals shop, they say, "I'm too fat/short/pale/whatever." Such a small, yet fundamental thought process difference that I think really illustrates the difference in how women look at themselves vs. how men look at themselves.

And look at this relatively new categorization of men - Metrosexuals. Men who groom themselves more than the minimum, put more effort into their clothing, etc. - behaviors that are defined as fundamentally *feminine*. Why?
Over the centuries of human civilization, beauty and desirability have ALWAYS been the currency of female worth. That's just how it is. Not saying it's right or wrong, but I can't see it any other way. Society, with very few exceptions, has been male-dominated, and males are undeniably visually oriented. And that has shaped the path of all cultural development...which brings us back to media.

It'd be interesting to imagine how life would be different if society had been matriarchic-run/-based than patriarchic. And *please* don't think I'm imagining the world'd be a better place at all. But it would most certainly be different. What would be important to us? What wars would have been avoided, and what wars would have replaced them?

But now I think I'm getting more than a little off-topic.

How do you see yourself in the mirror when you look into it?
As long as I'm clean and in good health, I like what I see. Sure, I wish my nose looked a bit less like a baby nose and sometimes my hair is just awful, but other days I can be awestruck by how soft and plump my lips are. I have good parts and not so good parts just like everyone else, and sometimes I look on the not so good and despair, and sometimes I look on the good and rejoice.

Why do you think the bar is set so incredibly high for women?
This ties in with the women as multitaskers - men as "monotaskers" myth; women are supposed to be able to do so much more at the same time. So women are groomed to be both housekeepers and lovers and professionals at the same time - and to look stunning when they do it. It's not one bar, it's a hurdle race.

And can women really live up to this? (some women seem too and they seem so successful)
I think the way to (personal) success is to choose which hurdles to jump and which to run around. Some people have the capacity to jump several, some only a few. The key is to not stumble and get tangled up in a hurdle, because that smarts.

Is anyone here actually living up to this image of the in control and perfectly styled professional women? (i'd like to know how! )
Not me, but I don't have that ambition either. And as long as my bosses don't have a problem with my appearance I don't have a problem either.

How many of you are generally happy with the way you are present yourself phsyically, professionally?
I'm happy. There's always room for improvement, of course. I wish I'd look a bit older and less cute sometimes, it's hard to be taken seriously when you have my babyface, and I wish I was physically stronger. But asides from that? Nah. Details. Someone mentioned something from Oprah about enjoying the present instead of thinking about how awesome your life will be in the hypotetical future when you're perfect, and that's so true. I try to live by that, but I need to remind myself every now and then.

^^ That was a very interesting insight Sultana. And thank you also Pip for your comments and contribution to this thread.

In fact, when out shopping recently, i think i said "i'm too short for these pants and the male that was out with us commented that "these jeans are too long for me" not "i'm too short for these jeans"

So your comment really hits home for me as being part of the thought process that some (or most) woman use to process their interactions with the world.

Do women internalize things and men externalize things? :hmm: And is that encouraged in our society/culture?

sweetpea

well, i have struggled with this issue for a long time. i used to be a model and i think models worry about image too much. i quit knowing that i contributed to the stigma of being that "perfect woman". i shaved my head and now dont wear any makeup. i think im protesting :confused: i have always lived knowing i am myself and being that way is perfect.