Are people who pierce their daughter's ears child abusers?

[highthief]

Playing on the circumcision thread, I see a lot of kids, infants (especially Italians and other Meds) with pierced ears. Abuse? Would you call children's aid or whatever it is called in the States (family services?) if you saw a kid with pierced ears?

[Destrox]

Why is everything today about ".... child abuser" "... neglect" "... sexual harassment"

I am just so sick of it all. This country needs a serious re-working because it is falling to shit from all of this PC bullshit and general pussyfication if that is such a word.

To answer your question, no I dont feel its child abuse, and to even have the thought of calling family services boggles my mind.

[Charlatan]

Piercing a child's ears isn't abuse. I'm not even completely convinced that circumcision is abuse.

The main difference in the two proceedures (at least the one that really matters to me) is that you cannot reverse a circumcision and you can always take out your earrings.

One changes the natural function of an organ and the other puts a hole in superfluous flesh (that will grow back if the jewelry is removed).

Originally Posted by Destrox

I am just so sick of it all. This country needs a serious re-working because it is falling to shit from all of this PC bullshit and general pussyfication if that is such a word.

What the fuck are you talking about? From what you have written, you seem to suggest that we should start abusing our kids in greater numbers.

[Destrox]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

What the fuck are you talking about? From what you have written, you seem to suggest that we should start abusing our kids in greater numbers.

Huh??

I fail to even see how you interpreted that.

I am stating that I am sick and tired of people crying "abuse" "sue" and etc for things that nothing close to the fact.

[little_tippler]

I think that, the "abuse" word aside, that kids shouldn't have their ears pierced or be circumcised or any other physical aspect changed that is not necessary, by decision of the parents, especially if when the child is older they can probably say for themselves they want x or y "done". I also think religion should not be forced on children, they should be able to choose, which I was able to myself. I don't see any advantage for a kid to have circumcision or ears pierced or any of that, and there will be unnecessary pain involved, and possible disadvantages instead. Your child is not a toy to "dress up".

All this said, I don't look down on people who have their kids' ears pierced, it's relatively harmless. I would not do so to my kids unless they requested it - it's not my body to put holes in! As for circumcision, I'm not in favour of it because it's an unnecessary and very sensitive medical procedure, but I can't condemn people who have it done to their little boys if they are in a society that in most cases chooses to do it.

[Martian]

Abuse is hitting a child. Abuse is neglecting to provide a child with the basic needs. Abuse is committing acts upon a child that are so despicable I find myself unable to even relay them here.

Pierced ears? Not abuse.

I spent a period of my teen years as a youth worker and I met some abused children. These kids had questions that nobody had answers to and had been through trauma that they would carry with them the rest of their lives. They were subjected to far worse at a much younger age than many people can even imagine. And I still think about them, sometimes. I can still list their names (although I won't, for obvious reasons).

The worst were the ones who were smoking and having sex at 12 years old. Much as I'm jaded now, at that age I still retained some of my innocence. I can't even begin to imagine what they must have felt, orthe life they had ahead of them, all as a result of the direct actions of their supposed guardians.

So, yeah. If you try to tell me that piercing a baby's ears is abuse, I'm gonna call bullshit. It's tacky, but it's not abuse. Same deal for circumcision.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Martian

It's tacky, but it's not abuse.

I'd say that pretty much sums everything up nicely, and puts it into a neat tidy little package.

Now, let's take a deep breath guys, and try not to get so worked up.

[genuinegirly]

I don't see that piercing ears or circumcision could be considered child abuse.
I have only ever seen latina babies with their ears pierced, and not too many at that. Always thought it was a cultural thing.

Why would anyone consider this abuse? Odd practices, yes. Abuse? no.

[highthief]

Some people were saying that the old snip was child abuse on the other thread. I do not concur, but wanted to see if the same people would say ear piercing is abuse, y'know?

[BadNick]

I think considering "normal" ear piercing as abuse verges on absurd. Now if you were to stretch out a baby's ear lobes and insert 1" diameter rods, that would be a more complicated issue ...I don't know if it is, but I can imagine it might or could be an accepted custom or ritual in some cultures. At what diameter the abuse starts is a strange question. Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking many such questions about such practices ...piercing, cutting, tattooing, etc... depend on a cultural perspective. Not to say this justifies abuse, but it makes it a more complicated issue.


By contrast:

Originally Posted by little_tippler

I also think religion should not be forced on children, they should be able to choose

While I don't disagree with everything you said in your post, contrary to some misguided (IMO) "naturalist" philosophies, children are not born knowing what is right and wrong, they don't naturally know how or what decisions to make in life, it is the parents responsibility to guide them. Parents who have strong religious beliefs would be obligated by their own morals to raise their children accordingly. When the kids get old enough to know, they can choose to change.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by Destrox

I am stating that I am sick and tired of people crying "abuse" "sue" and etc for things that nothing close to the fact.

That is different from what you previously wrote.

What you wrote before was:

Why is everything today about ".... child abuser" "... neglect" "... sexual harassment"

I am just so sick of it all. This country needs a serious re-working because it is falling to shit from all of this PC bullshit and general pussyfication if that is such a word.

This can be interpreted as, Why does everyone talk about abuse, neglect, sexual harassment. I am sick of hearing about it.

Which suggests that you would rather it go back the old days when abuse, neglect and sexual harassment occured and no one said anything.

Your clarification removes the doubt that existed in the earlier post.

[Poppinjay]

Even though I'm dead set against circumcision for me, or any of my offspring, I am not against for reasons of orthodoxy.

Same with piercing.

However.....

I grew up in the south. Lotsa trailer parks on my school bus route. I've encountered more than one 8 year old boy with a mullet and an earring. I don't think it's abuse, but I would love to see those families relocated to not near me.

[Toaster126]

Originally Posted by Destrox

Why is everything today about ".... child abuser" "... neglect" "... sexual harassment"

I am just so sick of it all. This country needs a serious re-working because it is falling to shit from all of this PC bullshit and general pussyfication if that is such a word.

To answer your question, no I dont feel its child abuse, and to even have the thought of calling family services boggles my mind.

I think Destrox has said everything I wanted to say, and even used the word "pussyfication", which is awesome.

[onodrim]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

The main difference in the two proceedures (at least the one that really matters to me) is that you cannot reverse a circumcision and you can always take out your earrings.

One changes the natural function of an organ and the other puts a hole in superfluous flesh (that will grow back if the jewelry is removed).

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I don't see either as "abuse," but of the two, pierced ears are a significantly less severe action. I had my ears pierced when I was younger and had no problems with them at all. Later in high school I let them heal back up, and then a few years later wanted them back again and had them reopened. It's not a big issue at all, it's a very easy choice to reverse.

[Gatorade Frost]

The only person I've ever known who had her ears pierced when she was a baby was my cousin; everyone confused her for a boy when she was younger, so her parents got fed up and pierced her ears.

I don't see it as abuse, personally.

[Charlatan]

What an odd reason to pierce someone's ears. My son used to get called a girl when he was a baby (still does now that he has long hair) and my daughter gets called a boy from time to time.

Now that I dress my daughter in pink and she wears dresses, she doesn't get call a boy all that much.

[highthief]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

What an odd reason to pierce someone's ears. My son used to get called a girl when he was a baby (still does now that he has long hair) and my daughter gets called a boy from time to time.

Now that I dress my daughter in pink and she wears dresses, she doesn't get call a boy all that much.

Actually, I'm pretty certain that's why a lot of people do it, and they put those little pink bands around their infant daughter's hairless head so people know she's a girl.

[la petite moi]

Charlatan, ear piercings generally aren't reversable. By the time they are of the age to make the decision to take the piercings out, there is scar tissue. I know this because I got my ears pierced when I was in fourth grade, wore the earrings for a couple years, and then tried to let them heal...but there were large scar lumps instead.

In response to the question, I don't think it's child abuse. I think child abuse is when you're maliciously trying to harm a child either to get a point across or not. However, I do think piercing a child's ears is stupid.

[Charlatan]

"large scar lumps" How large?

I know the four ear piercings I've had have closed over (I had them for over four years each). There are small bumps, the size of maybe a half a grain of rice, beneath the skin, but that's it. To all outward, apprearances they are invisible.

So yes, there is scar tissue but compared to the removal of a foreskin I think you can see the difference.


Highthief: Those pink hairbands are what should really be outlawed!

[Bacchanal]

I can't say I see either piercing or circumcision as abuse, though I did neither with my kids.

My daughter's mom and I never wanted her to have her ears pierced until she was old enough to take care of them herself, and she had them pierced a few months ago at age 6.

My son hasn't been circumcised, but only because he couldn't have it done when he was a newborn, and I don't want to have to do that to him now that he's old enough to remember it (almost 4). If he wants it done when he's older, that's fine, but I see no point in doing it now that it's gone this long.

I honestly can't comprehend how anyone could even question either action as abuse. I've had friends who were actually abused and neglected as children, and if I were to put this question to them I fear they would abuse me for asking something so stupid.

[la petite moi]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

"large scar lumps" How large?

I know the four ear piercings I've had have closed over (I had them for over four years each). There are small bumps, the size of maybe a half a grain of rice, beneath the skin, but that's it. To all outward, apprearances they are invisible.

So yes, there is scar tissue but compared to the removal of a foreskin I think you can see the difference.


Highthief: Those pink hairbands are what should really be outlawed!

I have had people ask about then, so I'm guessing my lumps are noticeable. Then again, maybe I'm just a rare case. In any case, it is still scar tissue. It's just stupid to pierce a child's ears when they are so young that they don't have a say.

I also don't think circumcision is right, but then again, I think uncircumcised penises are kinda gross. No offense!

Like Bacchanal said of his friends, I was abused as a child, and know the difference between these two cases and true physical abuse. It's absurd to even ponder whether circumcision/piercings are child abuse. Blah.

[mrklixx]

I had an acquaintance that pierced his ear with a hole punch. I bet that would count as abuse.

[Destrox]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Your clarification removes the doubt that existed in the earlier post.

Glad we're on even ground now. *group hug*

[Xazy]

Got to agree this is just silly. No it is not abuse.

[Yoink]

I don't think it is abuse either. I had my ears pierced as a young child and all I can say is 'Thank you mum!" since it's one thing I didn't have to fret over.

[SecretMethod70]

Originally Posted by little_tippler

I think that, the "abuse" word aside, that kids shouldn't have their ears pierced or be circumcised or any other physical aspect changed that is not necessary, by decision of the parents, especially if when the child is older they can probably say for themselves they want x or y "done". [...] I don't see any advantage for a kid to have circumcision or ears pierced or any of that [...] Your child is not a toy to "dress up".

All this said, I don't look down on people who have their kids' ears pierced, it's relatively harmless. I would not do so to my kids unless they requested it - it's not my body to put holes in! As for circumcision, I'm not in favour of it because it's an unnecessary and very sensitive medical procedure, but I can't condemn people who have it done to their little boys if they are in a society that in most cases chooses to do it.

I pretty much agree with this. One sentence in there is something which I think bears repeating: "Your child is not a toy to 'dress up.'" Now, clothing is one thing, but altering your child's body because you think it would look better is simply unnacceptable to me.

Is it "abuse?" No, not really. Is it bad parenting? Sorry, but yes. A previous poster brought up an interesting point: at what point does body modification of your child, without the child's input or consent, become too much? Parents can pierce ears because it's aesthetically pleasing to them...can they also stretch the earlobes? What about piercing clitoral hoods or labia on baby girls, as someone brought up in the circumcision thread? Or how about a frenum piercing on baby boys (if you don't know what this is, click here)? Surely, if cutting off one quarter of the penile skin, which has a specific purpose and contains the most sensitive and numerous nerves in the penis simply because it looks better and makes the parent's job of teaching their son how to clean himself a little easier is acceptable, a little frenum piercing should be as well.

little_tippler is right though: we, as Americans (because god knows there aren't any other societies which love circumcision for non-religious reasons as much as we do*), live in a society in which circumcision is normal. It is far less normal even in American society than it used to be, but it is still normal. Likewise, piercing a baby's ears may not be statistically normal, but it is not looked down upon. Individual parents who make these decisions are not abusive - intent is an important factor. It is not the parents as individuals who should be condemned with regards to these practices, it is the societal practice as a whole.

I'll say this: at least earlobes, whatever purpose they may serve if any, do not lose their purpose or function by being pierced. The penis DOES lose a function by being circumcized. We can argue about whether it is a necessary function all day, but the point is it is a function, and that fact alone sets circumcision far apart from "normal" ear piercing.

*Note: I don't know for a fact that there is not a single other society which circumcizes at the same rate of America for non-religious reasons, but I do know that if there are others, it is a relative few.

[highthief]

Originally Posted by Bacchanal

I honestly can't comprehend how anyone could even question either action as abuse. I've had friends who were actually abused and neglected as children, and if I were to put this question to them I fear they would abuse me for asking something so stupid.

OK, apparently either I phrased the question badly or people aren't taking the trouble to read through this. I am not saying it is child abuse or the like, but asking people's feelings (notably those who feel c*rcumcision is abuse) about the matter in relation to the other thread. In other words, can you call one abuse but not the other?

Ah, never mind...

[raeanna74]

I would not circumcision abuse, NOR would I call ear piercings abuse. BUT I don't think either is the BEST parenting.

I use to babysit a little girl who's ears were pierced before she was one year old. By the time she was old enough to talk about it she was pleased with it. It was something she enjoyed. In our society it's acceptable and very common for women to have their ears pierced. Most likely she would choose it later anyway. BUT I feel it should be their choice.

My daughter on the other hand has not had her ears pierced. I have told her what it's like and even asked her if she wanted them pierced. She has already chosen not to. In her words "I want to wait till I'm older when I wear jewelry more." She's barely started school and plays with a couple friends who have their ears pierced but she just is not interested. Who knows if she ever will choose it. I gave her the choice.

A guy could choose later to have himself circumcised. On that subject I knew a man who was fastidiously clean. But he was not circumcised. Hiw wife was also very clean. BUT they believed it was because he was not circumcised that she constantly had infections. They were monogomous and they ate very well. She was not diabetic and did not use tampons or scented powders. All the other factors that would contribute to infections for her were simply not there. The only possible cause that they could find was that he was not circumcised. I'm not saying that it's definately a reason but it seems to be a possible reason to circumcise.

[thubpt]

I have to agree with raeanna74 on this one . . . . while it's not abuse, I personally feel it's not quite fair to your children to alter their bodies at such a young age. With both of my daughters, I decided to let them make their own decision when they were old enough to ask for it, and had thought about why they wanted it done. I did not have my ears pierced until I was 16, and I remember the pain to this day . . . .

That being said: *No Piercing Pagoda/Free piercing with a purchase of 25$* - take them to a reputable piercing professional that uses sterilized needles. The whole "I'm gonna pierce your ears with the very earring that you're going to wear for 2 years" . . . . ouch. My ex actually went behind my back, and had my eldest daugher's ears pierced when she was 3 months old, at his mother's insistence. They went to one of those mall places, and 2 months later, my poor baby girl's ears were infected because of the low quality earrings they used. We let the holes heal, as she was in so much pain because of them, and what does he do? Eight months later, he goes again and gets them pierced AGAIN! (And he didn't understand that communication was one of the many reasons why I chose to leave him . . . .)

I talked to my neighbor about this just the other day - interesting tidbit: In Venezuela, where she's from, apparently the first thing after the famale baby is born, after they swab out her mouth and make sure she's breathing, they pierce her ears . . . . My neighbor said it's been done that way for generations now.

[Suave]

Originally Posted by little_tippler

I think that, the "abuse" word aside, that kids shouldn't have their ears pierced or be circumcised or any other physical aspect changed that is not necessary, by decision of the parents, especially if when the child is older they can probably say for themselves they want x or y "done". I also think religion should not be forced on children, they should be able to choose, which I was able to myself. I don't see any advantage for a kid to have circumcision or ears pierced or any of that, and there will be unnecessary pain involved, and possible disadvantages instead. Your child is not a toy to "dress up".

All this said, I don't look down on people who have their kids' ears pierced, it's relatively harmless. I would not do so to my kids unless they requested it - it's not my body to put holes in! As for circumcision, I'm not in favour of it because it's an unnecessary and very sensitive medical procedure, but I can't condemn people who have it done to their little boys if they are in a society that in most cases chooses to do it.

Yeah tippler! (in other words, I agree although I'm a little harsher in judging those wang-snipping hooligans )

[MSD]

Originally Posted by BadNick

... contrary to some misguided (IMO) "naturalist" philosophies, children are not born knowing what is right and wrong, they don't naturally know how or what decisions to make in life, it is the parents responsibility to guide them. Parents who have strong religious beliefs would be obligated by their own morals to raise their children accordingly. When the kids get old enough to know, they can choose to change.

The problem here, and the reason that we'll never agree, is that while religious people see it as a sacred duty to teach it to their children, and some people claim that they can choose to change, other, myself included, see it as nothing less than years of brainwashing. While I admire the ability of the founders of religions to attract the masses and unite them, I see religion as nothing more than a way for a few people to control huge numbers of people. To me, practicing religion is like believing in Santa Claus as a child, but without anyone finally admitting to you that it's all a way to make childhood more fun and magical. A sense of right and wrong is one thing, but the idea that children are raised being told what to believe and threatened with divine retrubution and eternal torment if they do not obey is disgusting.