Have you ever killed an animal?
 

I was reading the KentuckyFriedCruelty.com thread, and the PETA argument was quickly batted back and forth.

I was thinking to myself, "Of all the things I have killed in my life, chickens would rank at the worst things to kill."

Then I thought that replying to that post would be moot at best, and was wondering if other TFP'ers have actively taken an animals life? First, I think this thread would make a PETA member cry, and I am in favour of that. I do not like their organization or their tactics.

I am also against animal cruelty, and would never support hunting or harvesting practices that cause suffering.

But therein lies the rub: Is there not just a little bit of cruelty as that deer dies, or the chicken's head is seperated from its tasty body? Maybe a little bit, but I don't want the animal to suffer.

I fish for sport, and am tasked with cleaning said fish once the day is done. When the fish is kept in a live-well, the fish goes crazy when my fillet knife enters its body. To avoid this queazy feeling, I always hit the fish over the head before starting the filleting process. Do other TFP'ers do this too?

I hunt for sport, and part of that sport includes field-dressing the animal once you have killed it. I have been on hunts where the animal was still alive after we had tracked it down, and cutting its throat is necessary. I object to this job, and think it is better to put a bullet in the animals head to prevent suffering. Do other TFP'ers believe I am a monster for participating in this activity?

I have worked on a farm as a child (and teenager, and a tiny bit as an adult.) and part of that job includes butchering chickens in the fall. A clean axe to seperate the head from the body seems to me the most humane form of butchering, but the body starts to flap around and go nuts. I have had to hold on to the chickens while this happens, because the body will LITERALLY run away without its head. Very disturbing as a child, but the chicken is very tasty. I have cleaned enough chicken coops to criticize the scientific nature of their intelligence. I personally don't believe that they possess intelligence, and don't think twice about butchering them for their flesh. Do other TFP'ers think me mad for this?

I have owned family pets, and have had them euthenized once the veterenarian has exhausted medical treatment and recommended it. I have cried for the loss of these dear friends, and mourned them for long periods. Do TFP'ers think these actions are hypocritical?

I don't think many people have actually killed a chicken, and instead prefer it sitting cleanly on a styrofoam tray and wrapped in plastic. Maybe I am wrong, and thus I ask the question;

Why one would want to discuss killing an animal is beyond my comprehension.

I prefer all my pork or beef to come pre-killed. Usually fowl too, but I wouldn't object to a pheasant hunt.

My biggest one day total for fish was 21. I always cut their heads off first, then gut, then scale. Catfish are much worse. I wouldn't even fish for them now. When I was a kid, I nailed their head to a board, slit around the gills, and pulled the skin back.

Deer and elk are far off my huntables list. Cows and chickesn taste so much better. Deer and elk are stunning, and have an intelligence and part in the eco-system.

I've killed many snakes because our land was infested with copperheads and moccasins.

I strongly disagree with stocked hunting grounds and turkey shoots.

Lobster is one of my most favorite things in the world... I have a buddy who will crack the head of the lobster before dropping in it the pot because he swore he could hear the lobster scream... I have overly sensitive hearing... and have never heard a lobster scream in my life...

Oh yeah, I've killed lobsters too. By boiling. If I ever have somebody drop off fresh caught lobsters again, they will face the same fate. Even live store bought lobsters don't compare in taste.

When I was kid...and lived at Mission Bay in San Diego, I would hunt for mussle at low tide. I used the meat inside to bait hooks which I used to catch Croaker (a nasty inedible fish). I would then place the croaker in homemade crab traps, put together from chicken wire and toss them into the bay. After several hours I usually had more crab than I could possibly eat. Yes....many animals died, but Damn...thems good Crabs.

I think you have your pronouns confused there, PoppinJay.

On your post, it sounds like you will boil the person who drops the lobster at your door.

BTW, that is some funny shit.

I've hunted deer and rabbits as well as fished since I was a kid. One of the first things I was taught about hunting was if you don't have a clean good shot don't take it. This advice was for two reasons, first so you don't end up shooting a person and second so your first shot is the killing shot.

It has been several years since I've hunted now, I simply don't have the need for it as I can now afford to go out and buy beef. When I was a kid though my family was dirt poor so if we wanted meat we had to hunt. It was less expenisive to buy a hunting license than meat from the store.

Your comprehension is exactly what I am seeking, Nikki.

I don't gloat about my actions, but at the same time I find my actions rational and prudent.

I am interested in people's definitions of cruel and suffering when discussing this topic.
I wonder if people attach the social norm of "soul" to an animal and think of me as a murderer.
I wonder if, by my having actually participated in butchering a chicken, I am more aware of what constitutes cruelty while others worry about PETA and the message they send.
I wonder if the act of butchering one's own meat products somehow gives a better perspective on the definition of animal rights and our place in nature.


I seek your input, Nikki. On these questions, and others.

I grew up/live, in a very hunt/fish area. I hunted quail with my dad when I was younger, but never was good enough to shoot one. I think I only actually fired twice. Was too scared of hitting the people beside me...but anyways. There are so many deer around my county that many of them starve. I've raised sheep for 15 years now, and had the cats, dogs, etc and I can tell you one thing that tears my heart up is watching an animal starve for whatever reason, so I view hunting as a way to keep that from happening. I know a lot of people would argue that it doesn't work because the hunters kill the biggest, healthiest animals...but if they do that, doesn't that still leave more for the others?

I've eaten fish, chicken, pork, beef, lamb, deer, turkey....I have no qualms. The food chain. It's natural.

I view animal cruelty as something done to an animal that is done first and foremost for the pleasure of seeing the animal suffer and it really pisses me off to see it. I just want to beat the shit out of people that do that.

Story from my life in new hampshire.. story relayed to me by a colleague...

Recently, a colleague had what appeared to be a rabid looking raccoon that wouldn't leave their driveway area. Colleague has 2 smallish children, 1 cat and 2 dogs, so really didn't want this critter hanging around. Loud noises didn't scare it off... He's not a nh native so he did what most people woudl do..> Called the police department (not 911) for animal control to come get this beast.

the police told him to take his gun (Gotta love the police in the live free or die state) go out and shoot the raccoon, put it in a hefty bag,a nd someone woudl pick it up later that afternoon.
My colleague insisted that he couldn't do that,a nd could they please send someone to pick up the animal.
Police said that they were busy and got pretty belligerent and told him several times to just shoot the damn thing.
Now my colleague was trying to avoid the fact that he's the only person in the state of new hampshire that doesn't have an arsenal of weapons in the house.. tried one last time to get someone to come so he doesn't have to say he's gunless...
Police called him some rather unflattering (liberalesque) name... and told him to be a man (i think they questioned his sexual proclivity too)and just go shoot the coon... it was just a coon, it had no feelings blah blah blah...

Colleague finally admitted to not owning a gun -not 10 minutes later the cruiser showed up - shot the raccoon and life was happy again... but not for the raccoon...
~~~~~~~~~~~

IN high school, I was coming home from some after school activity in winter... it was pretty dark and we lived in a pretty rustic area - a big huge deer jumped in front of me-- and i couldn't stop in time... did a good job on the deer, but two bullets into the deer finished it off.. I will enver forget the officer asking me if i wanted the deer after it was dead.. I'm sure the antlers are on someone's wall..

My family used to own chickens, about 15-20 of them. Occasionally we'd kill them and eat them, and like BigBen said, if you don't hold the body, it will run away. However, my dad never made us hold on to the body. It's one thing to watch a headless chicken flapping and running around and whatnot, and it's another thing to hold onto its body, feeling its muscles spasm and then slowly stop.

I've killed plenty of fish as well. I always hit them on the head with a hammer to make sure they're dead. Usually what used to happen is that would I catch a fish and then throw it in an empty cooler and it would suffocate. One day I had caught a 26" Red fish and threw it into my cooler and kept fishing. Well, that fish was pretty freakin tenacious, and did not want to die. It jumped around a bit, then was still for a few mins, then suddenly jumped about like a madfish. Almost knocked the cooler open and escaped from my canoe. That kinda disturbed me, so now I kill them quickly with a hammer.

Other than that, I can't recall any other type of animal I've killed. I don't really enjoy killing animals, but I have no problem with other people doing so as long as they do it in a responsible, non cruel way. There are rednecks around here that used to get drunk and then stay up until like 2 or 3 am, and wait for all of the armadillos to come out in the open. These rednecks would then chase the armadillos and kick them to death. I never saw it happen, but I have seen the aftermath and it is not pretty. It's that kind of shit that makes me want to hunt people.

Many fish have fallen to my savage hooks and faced disemboweling at my cruel hands.

But thats about it.

Well mice too, as two did fall to my wicked traps not long ago.

But that is about it.

I do like my meat to be nicely packaged, as I have always found 'guts' to be disgusting. This of course made anatomy class loads of fun for me, and I did have to take it twice, once for the doctorate and a more advanced one in my post doc masters.

That stuck out for me, for some reason. ;)

As far as hunting goes... I dunno, part of me finds hunting animals for sport with a big rifle with a sniper scope a bit... well, unsporting, I suppose. I don't really have a moral issue with it, especially if you plan to cook the kill, but I don't think it's exactly 'sport' to do it with a bloody big gun.

Fishing and what have you, I have no problem with. Nature, red in tooth and claw and all that, eh?

Yea, I'd agree with that. That's just nasty.

Edit: To answer the question, apart from the odd insect, no. The closest I've come is a whacking great moth that was almost as big across as the palm of my hand. *shudder*

I feel that animal cruelty is immoral but I don't consider all types of hunting as animal cruelty and I don't consider butchering animals to support my/our carnivourous desires to be cruelty. I grew up doing some hunting and can directly relate to the hunting stories above, but I haven't hunted in years, even though without my suggestion both of my boys seem interested in trying hunting and shooting. Even though I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood in Philadelphia, we often got chickens fresh butchered and roasted at a nearby place where as kids we'd watch them chopping the heads off and the associated chicken antics. I did plenty of fishing and cleaning my own catch; most fish I've done was when we caught a few hundred blow fish in a day and cleaned them all ...lots of blood and guts there since a good cleaning involves turning that fish inside out using his loose skin. I felt sorry for catfish I caught when I took a bus home with the fish in hand, still alive even after more than a half hour walk from the pond then more than an hour bus ride home, and it was still alive when I was ready to clean it :(

^^^ that coon story is one I can relate to. I live in PA just outside Phila so it's not very rurual and shooting is not allowed in the township. A few years ago in mid afternoon, a racoon was trying to get into my second floor bedroom from the front porch roof. My wife screemed, so I ran down from my home office where I was working to see what's up. By this time the racoon was wandering away on the roof, I saw it stopped and was swaying back and forth and looked strange and sort of unusually glassy eyed, so I was also concerned about rabies which was getting more prevalanet at that time. I called the police who said they'd come right over, so I went outside with a long shovel in my hand to make sure I knew where the coon was going. I didn't leave my front yard by the time the first cop showed, who immediately told me that he's waiting for the township police supervisor who is the hot shot who prefers to do the shooting in these situations. He showed up a minute later, pulled out his revolver and shot the coon. They sent the body or brain off for analysis and got back to me a couple weeks later saying it had distemper but not rabies.

I have never hunted, fished or otherwise killed an animal (on purpose). It is not that I am against it, I just couldn't do it. Hunting just for the thrill of the kill bothers me, but if you are using it to feed your family it does not bother me. I have a friend who hunts, and uses as much of the animal as he can.

I've fished a lot, everything from BlueGill to Northern Pike. I've hunted a little, but am interested in doing it more. I went squirrel hunting with a friend to kind of get my feet wet, but I'm interested in going deer hunting sometime. I don't think hunting to fishing is probably less cruel on the animals (usually) then them being raised for slaughter and processed commercially.

My wife is a vegitarian on the grounds that if she can't kill it herself she won't eat it. She reasons that she can kill fish and seafood so these are OK to eat.

Like most urban dwellers today my meat comes in packages from the grocery store or the butcher. I have no contact with the animals prior to eating them. I have no issue in general with eating meat but I do take issue with cruelty to animals. What constitutes cruelty? This line is drawn in different places by different people but I would argue that "uneccessary pain and suffering" is pretty safe as a point upon which we can all agree.

While the folks at PETA are rather extreme in their positions, there is a lot to said against the industrialization of our food supply. Animals are treated like parts on an assembly line that starts at massive feed lots or barns, where the animals do not live anything close to a "good' life and ends at the slaughter house where, in the desire to speed the process, many are not killed in the most humane of ways (let alone rendered in the cleanest or safest of ways).

These are the negative externalities of our industrial food supply. We get cheap affordable food at the expense of humane treatment of animals, worker saftey in the slaughterhouse and the health risks of poorly rendered meat.

Similar issues and practices that upset people (or not) about the availability of cheap goods at places like WalMart are at play in the food industry as well.

Not surprisingly these large corporations have deep pockets. They use this money to lobby for legislation in their favour, make sizable campaign donations and engage in aggressive PR campaigns to change public opinion.

On the paranoia side of things, I wouldn't be surprised to find that PETA was created by these corporations so they could hide in plain sight. We spend time talking about how crazy PETA is and patently ignore the more agregious realities of this industry.


I have personally killed a few animals and am never happy about it. The most recent was a squirrel that ran into the street as I was driving by... I heard the crunch. Looked in my rearview mirror to see that I had only run over its head. The rest of the body was flapping madly in its death throes. I was torn between leaving it there, going to help it and reversing over it to finish the job. It stopped moving while I made up my mind.

I used to fish but I haven't done that in about 15 years. When I was a kid I killed a bird with a BB gun and once a friend and I caught crawdads and stabbed them with a knife. Looking back that was cruel.

I could probably kill anything if I had to so that I could eat but I'd rather not. It's messy.

I don't get hunting quail. They are so small it seems like a lot of work cleaning them.

Agreed. A true hunter doesn't use those abominations.
And yes...I am a hunter. I have killed animals.

I also grew up in a rural area, where it was routine to kill and butcher a steer, a hog, or a mess of chickens. So, yes. I also participated in that chore.

Furthermore...I eat meat. I like meat. Therefore, even though I did not personally go out and "kill" my dinner (this time), it was killed for me. Little difference, in my mind.

i'm with flamingdog on this one. it doesn't seem like too much of a match. my problem with hunting is that i HATE guns. IMO, there really isn't any redeeming quality to guns, other than to "protect" you from others who might have them. so if there were no guns at all... for another thread.

i wouldn't mind hunting so much if it were mano a mano. that'd be a little more balanced, and i imagine the buck would get the better of the hunter quite often. or if we could teach deer to shoot. that would be sweet.

on the subject of animal cruelty, i have a slightly different viewpoint that i don't think has been addressed here.

i don't see it as cruelty if the animal was created for the purpose for which it is being used. to me, chickens (and other animals) bred, raised, and slaughtered in captivity are not so far off from corn planted, watered, and harvested in a field. both are done for the sole purpose of creating food. and the animal would not exist if it weren't us (the consumers) & the farmers.

i do see hunting as a bit more cruel, because here is a deer out minding it's own business and then WHAM! i do wish that deer could come into our houses while we are watching TV, f-ing around on the TFP etc... that would justify hunting to me.

all of this being said, i love to fish, but not to catch anything. i just like to sit in a boat and drink beer. and fresh fish is yummy.

and to answer the question, the only things i've killed are fish and bugs and the occassional mouse in my house. do those count?

With the exception of fishing, the only time I killed a larger animal, or a mammal, for that matter, was when I was around 12 years old, I think.

**Warning, some people may find this story a bit disturbing, I certainly did when I was 12...**

I was at our cabin shooting cans with a .22 revolver. While I was shooting, I heard a very strange, almost moaning noise coming not far from where I was in a field. I headed over to investigate, and found a doe who had been shot twice, but was still alive. One of the shots had damn near taken her leg off. I was horrified, and had no idea why anyone would be shooting at it, as it wasn't even hunting season. I slowly crept up to her and she just sat there and trembled. I held out my hand, and she licked it.

I put the revolver up to her forehead and pulled the trigger. I remember that the entire front part of my was covered in a really fine mist of blood - I felt like I would never be able to wash it off...

Needless to say, especially after that, I have never really been interested in hunting...

The Most Dangerous Game by Richard Connell


you might want to rethink that :)

Ah, I agree, but are the two of us thinking like that because we have participated in the chore in the past, and therefore have a healthy understanding of the process?

Is there a BIG difference to someone that has not actually killed something to eat? Alas, I cannot know.

I am in a very inquisitive mood today. I think I could ask about a million things.

It's been a long time since I read that, but I recall it being a very awesome book and storyline. :thumbsup:

Wow... Nicky, I'd really like to know why you ask such a stringent question? Are you a vegan? Or do you just find the conversation distasteful? I'm not complaining either way, I'm just curious.

I agree that "cruel" treatment of any animal is inhumane and immoral. I do believe that the killing of an animal for food, however, is part of nature. It is for many species, in fact, and humans just happen to be one of them. For those not in the know, or think otherwise, or body is physiologically designed from the ground up to be omnivorous. In fact, there are several WELL reknowned health journals throughout the world that have recently started putting in articles showing that vegetarianism and veganism is not very healthful for humans. You deprive yourself of vitamins and minerals that vegetables do not have, and that pills have in forms that are not as easily digested into the body. The biggest of these being calcium and potassium from bone-based broths vs. vegetable and "meat-flavored" broths.

I also think that, whenever possible, doing things the old way and using as much of the animal as possible makes it "more humane" I suppose. Use the antlers for knife handles or something. Use the fur. The animal is dead, it won't miss it. Make a rug or a covering for something. Use the bones whenver possible, either for cooking or some utilitarian use. The guts? Some can be used, some can be fed to pets, others can be mulched for fertilizer. I think items like that keep you more in line with our natural need to hunt. Obviously fish aren't good for much other than their meat... but that's not our fault, it's just how they are.

In a need-be situation (life or death or serious injury) I could kill anything I needed to... including another person. In a day-to-day situation, if I knew I was going to actually USE the animal in question, I could kill it without remorse. I may say a few words for it after. In the end, I would be at peace with myself.

I have several guns and target shoot on my property but have never used them to kill an animal yet. I let other hunters get deer here but find no pleasure in killing them myself even though they are probably over populating the area.

I killed two deer on separate occasions with my 280Z sports car years ago on a stretch of road along the Ohio River. People began calling me the deer hunter.

That has to be the most expensive way to hunt my friend...

Well I grew up on a farm....
so we were some of the one's who provided that pre killed meat
Chickens and turkeys aren't to bad
as long as you hold them tight untill you throw them.
otherwise you'll wind up battered by the wings.
cows and pigs are food so that has never bothered me
one night when I was about 10 or so
we sat down to a nice steak dinner
half way through...my dad asked...
Soo..how does Mortemer taste?
the whole family paused for a second of revultion
as he had been a top breeder and had become more like a pet.
after a moment of silence...everyone said delicious!....He was.

When an animal becomes a friend it becomes much harder
I've cried when putting down our dog
and a golden turkey that became a pet
"goldie" was not intended to be food
she got cancer...I cried more for that turkey
than all but one of my relatives.

In raising our sheep, sometimes we have to put them down (use a gun) because they are suffering.

Probably more detailed than it needs to be, but...
Last year while lambing, our best ewe (as in show quality) had a uterine prolapse after she lambed. We took her to the vet, but the procedure to fix it didn't work. Neither father nor I could put her down because we were so attached to her; she was a real sweetie. My cousin and another friend offered to do it for us knowing our feelings (I'm getting teary-eyed typing this). Sometimes it's the lesser of two evils...

Also, even though I don't mind hunting, I try very hard not to hit animals on the road, and most of the time it ruins my day if I do.

At one time this same logic was used to justify the inhumane treatment of slaves.

Now, I don't want to equate a human life with that of an animal. I don't think that is reasonable (some do though) but I do think that raise and slaughter animals in a way that doesn't treat them harshly (other than the obvious end of their life).

So yes, they wouldn't exist if not for the consumers and farmers BUT that just seems like MORE of a reason to take responsibility and treat them well.

Ive killed insects. I dont think Ive physically killed anything bigger with my own hand, but Ive eaten a lot of dead animals in my life

I like to fish. Part of the thing that comes with fishing is killing the fish you catch. I've caught and killed numerous fish in my lifetime.

I've also gone crabbing and shellfishing (part and parcel of the whole Puget Sound gig) considerably--mussels, clams, oysters, etc. Shoot, somewhere my boyfriend has a picture of me opening an oyster on the beach and eating it raw. And boy, that was a good oyster!

I also once ran over a cat...but I prefer not to talk about that...and the only chicken I've had die on my watch was a pet. I didn't kill it; it suffered from a congenital defect of some kind that only manifested itself after it was a few weeks old.

A pet I did kill, though accidentally: in second grade, I was playing with the class rat after school while waiting for my bus. I was sitting cross-legged on the carpet. A popular activity was to let the rat crawl all over your crossed legs and use your lap as a sort of pen. I went to place the wriggling rat in my lap, and on the way down it slipped. The rat fell maybe a few inches, the rat's nose hit my knee, and the poor rat started doing backflips all over the classroom carpet, leaving a trail of blood before it finally collapsed, twitching to death. Talk about trauma--killing the class pet! I felt horrible about it. Still do, actually. I never handled rats again and probably will never own a rodent. I think I'll go with snakes: they're harder to kill.

Hunting farms are a discrace. One of my most prideful moments is the video of a guy "hunting" a lion who was cornered into a fence with no where to go and shot it. The lion then turned and attacked the "hunter"

Having said that, I have many friends who make a great deal of money off yankees coming down to hunt. We have Havolinas (wild boars, mean sob's) which are labeled to them as "exotic", and yankee's will pay as much as $60k to come hunt them. The irony is that most farmers will PAY you to hunt/kill them because their population has boomed with their natural predators (wolves) being gone.

I've hunted/skinned/butchered and eaten deer/fish. There's nothing wrong with it, and you wont find many hunters who prolong the suffering of their prey.

And as for PETA? They're retarded. The "suffering" the animals go under is nothing. Cattle dont feel a thing, they get a quick piston to the skull and die painlessly. Their lives are nothing but sex and eating... hell they should be so lucky.

I grew up in a small town in alberta- but until I was 12, I never really understood what was involved to get my hamburger on my plate. I had always been a town kid, my dad always killed and cleaned the fish when we did go out fishing.

Around my twelvth sp? birthday we bought a farm and moved out into the country. I learned a lot that year, but one of the more interesting lessons was when I went over to our neighbors place to play. They raised cattle, and when I was over one day with keith one of the cows had a colic and was suffering horribly. I watched keith's father kill the cow with his rifle and butcher it in his shop. I learned how the different parts of the cow were used and what ground beef was and how it was made.

While this really took away the innocence of how the meat on my plate arrived there, I came to terms with it and my father and I have gone hunting quite a few times since then. I've killed and field-dressed a deer along with cleaning my own fish. I have no intent to visit suffering upon another animal, but I will commit to the decision to kill with no qualms.

Cruelty in my eyes is the unnessesary suffering of an animal- whether it be by bleeding out a deer instead of shooting it or gutting a fish before knocking it comatose. While muscle spasms by an animal after braindeath are disturbing, I don't believe there is any pain involved. The limited consciousness they have is gone, and there is no awareness of that questionable pain in the body.

I also think that senseless killing is a form of cruelty, but on a different scale. You should have a purpose for your kill, a reason you can justify, and not just rationalize.

I went fishing once at Lodi Lake (a man made lake off of the Mokelumne River in Northeren California) . I caught a 12' bass within maybe 2 minutes of casting my line. It was absolutely delicious, but I felt like crap afterwards about it. I don't think it was wrong per se, as all the meat I ever eat is from some animal, but I felt like crap doing it myself. Is it fair I should expect other people to kill my meat for me? Probably not. I just don't have the ability to seperate myself from making the connection between maet and animal when I do it myself. I've never been cruel to anyone or anything besides that in my life. I will escort flies and spiders from my home, and I make sure it is to a place around my house where they will thrive (flies go to the mulch pile and spider usually go into a bush).

Edit: Oh, God, forgot about lobster....that makes me guilty of genocide. I've cooked (from a live state, to the freezer for a bit, then right into the water) probably dozens to hundreds in my lifetime. Why is that so easy? Is it because I've been doing it since before morality about life and taking of life was in my head?

I've heard some tall fishing tales before, but that's a lot of bass. ;)

Beheaded chickens
Gutted fishes
Boiled lobsters
Killed chicks with a shovel (Had to put it down)

Oh, I ran over couple of cats. It's not like that I don't like them but it just that you can never tell when that little kitty on the side of the road is gonna jump into your way at the last minute.

the "scream" you hear is actually air escaping - it makes a high pitched squeek that can be heard by some folks...

now on the topic...

yes...

and eaten every single one...

there's a place for all of God's creatures... right next to the potatoes...

pass the gravy please?

What is exotic about a Javelina? I see them roaming around in the wash outside of my apartment. I live in the far NE corner of the city but it's still the city.

Canned hunting is disgusting. They might as well sit and play a video game.

How about e-hunting... :)
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=76372

I've steamed lobster also. Supposedly they die really quickly. I don't have live lobser often but next time, I'm considering the method where you just cut them in half and saute them. They die instantly if you insert the knife in the right spot, which should be considered less 'cruel' but it's more real since you do it by hand.

I recently found a place in town that sells live dungeness! Living in Phoenix that is quite a rarity. I can't wait.

dungeness is the boss when it comes to crab - king is okay but i'll take dungies anytime - and snow crab just plain sux...

for baked stuffed lobster, you don't wanna watch the preparation if your a softie - PETA has had a war on it up here for years

never killed an animal in my life..then again i didnt count fish in my resume of killed animals....

oh yeah just remembered those ants i used to fry with a magnifying glass...

screw PETA. If those retards pulled their heads out of their asses they would realize that it's better to die instantly than it is to be steamed alive.

Oh, are we counting insects? That would make me a baaad person.

Lots of fish to eat
Lots of birds to eat
Lots of seafood to eat
I've eaten lots of red meat, but I've never killed the animal myself
I shot my dog to put him out of misery when he was dying
I killed one sparrow when I was a boy just for the hell of it, and I've regretted it ever since

I have no problem doing it for a reason -- just not for no reason at all

One has to wonder if PETA is at all familiar with this thing called 'the food chain'. Predators kill and eat prey, sometimes while the prey is still alive. Why are they not out picketing a pride of lions? I've heard some PETA people say that we should be strictly vegetarians, I say F*That!!. I like beef, poultry, seafood, and on occasion i'll even eat pork. We, as a species, have eaten meat for thousands upon thousands of years. We are a part of that food chain. Peta.....get over it. You are not going to change the behavior pattern of humans.

Okay, this made me laugh.

I used to fish in Boy Scouts but hated gutting the fish. I've trapped mice using sticky traps, and kill insects with much zeal.

I enjoy a good steak (in fact, I had one 10 minutes ago), but don't know if I could do the killing myself. When I think about it, it's like the scene in "Restaurant at the End of the Universe" where the cow talks to Arthur about what cuts would be good.

Could I become vegetarian? Hell no. I enjoy food way too much to limit my palate.

I hunt on a regular basis. We take 1 or 2 deer each year if we are lucky, along with the occasional goose, turkey or squirrel.

I take clean, killing shots. We butcher the animals together. I can't tell you how much I truly value each and every meal that we get from those animals.

What's more cruel, an animal like a pig that spends it's life suffering on an industrial farm, or the deer that lives it's life in nature and dies from a clean killing shot from my shotgun?

I think every meat eater should, at least once in their lives, see their meal make the journey from living, breathing animal to their plate. It really means something, and I don't think you will appreciate it 'til you experience it.

I've gone deer hunting, fishing, and helped raised many different kinds of animals for the purpose of butchering them. I've helped butcher chickens, sheep, cows, and rabbits. Chickens are probably the most unpleasant to butcher. All were killed as quickly as possible. The problem with butchering with a gunshot to the head or chopping the head off is that the nervous system of the remaining body is still triggered and after it's separated from the 'control center' the rest of the body will flop, flail and as was mentioned with chickens, even get up and run. I remember one large sheep that we shot in the head that flailed for what seemed like forever while blood spurted from it's head. It was upsetting to see and at that time I was only 15. I do not nor have ever ENJOYED killing the animals. We do eat meat and I see no difference in the amount of cruelty to the animal for me to butcher it or for me to buy it off the shelf at the market. I think I appreciate the sacrifice of the animals life more because I have participated in it's demise. I don't even hunt for the sake of sport. I do it because I like venison and because I'm on a limited budget. Venison is a WHOLE lot cheaper than beef when I do the butchering and processing myself.

I think I find it more difficult to castrate sheep or dehorn calves. The calves bellow and the sheep make such a racket. The only way past it is to proceed as quickly as possible. Without dehorning though the cows would harm one another easier.

On the other side of things. If I catch a bug in my house I often will try to catch it and take it outside. The exception is with critters that seem to move too quickly to catch and those ladybugs. There's just too many of those ladybugs to catch and release ALL of them buggers. I have a cat, a bird (parakeet), and two guinea pigs in our house. I care for them and treat them kindly. I would miss any one of them dearly. Especially the cat and bird. I enjoy watching wildlife and photoing them. I had a birdfeeder outside (till it got broken this summer) and plan to put up one this spring. I rescued a rabbit once when I was a kid. Our landlord had mown over a nest and only one survived. We raised it till it was able to forage for itself. We released it near and old burrow in our back yard and left food at it's door daily for a while. He survived and grew quite large. I care for animals but those that are commonly used for food I do not have a problem butchering myself and eating. The important thing is appreciating the 'gift' of food that those animals have given and not wasting any of it.

Just as a matter of clarification, most turkey shoots now are a target shooting competion in which the winner or winners get a turkey to take home, if you've ever hunted turkey, you know that those birds are not easy to hunt.

I hunt and fish. For those that don't see hunting as a challenge, ask a hunter where the challenge is. It isn't a matter of just walking out in the woods, choosing your animal and shooting it. there is alot more to it than that.
This was the result of my spring hunt:
http://webpages.charter.net/cj2112/turkey415
he had about a 10" beard, and weighed about 23lbs.

I've accidentally ran over rabbits and possums before, and I enjoy fishing. I've also taken part in the mercy killing of a kitten that was dying and suffering terribly.

But while I'm not at all opposed to hunting, I've never done it one time in my life. Yet another one of the Southern stereotypes that I in no way live up to.

I'm kind of an enigma. While I don't like a sandwich unless it personally claimed the lives of at least four different animals, I'm not comfortable with killing animals, or watching them be killed. It unnerves me.

we get windshields blown out by partridge in the mating season - am i sorry it died - no - i'll eat it while filing my insurance claim...
moose - he'll get away while i'm putting my body back together...
deer - if they're eating my garden after the money and toil i put into it they can call it their last meal if i catch them...
woodchucks - same as deer only lobster bait...
squirrels - other than secret, they can go with the groundhogs...

here we live by simple means, in that i mean we love the outdoors and enjoy the wildlife as much as anyone, but there are certain times when enough is enough and in that thinning the herd is healthy...

i know my comments were a tad crass but they were meant to be - we are carnivores - we eat meat = those that don't take supplements...

i don't like drugs and you can take your farm raised fish and choke on it...

wow - that was kewl

I'll kill just about anything if the opportunity presents itself.


My parents place sits on 60 acres of forest, surrounded by housing developments, and the wildlife population is getting out of control. So, some people are leaving out bowls of anti-free to take care of the problem (which is a horrible way to die)

so whenever I'm over there I try to shoot as many of anything I can, because meeting a bullet is a lot better than dying from glycol alcohol poisoning.

I agree that caged hunting is a disgrace and in no way would I support it.
It's clear that those who think we should hunt "mano a mano" have never tried to get within shooting range of a deer, moose, elk or turkey. It ain't as easy as you think. If they poo poo the use of a rifle, would they rather a bow be used? Sure it takes more of an effort, but the animal dies much more slowly and the chance of wounding it is much greater. Again, it ain't as easy as you think.

I never killed anything just for the sake of killing it, but I did have some friends that did.
Animals that I've dispatched by accident:
two cats
raccoon
opossum
several lizards
two deer
many many thousands of insects (with my windshield)

Animals I've dispatched by design:
lots of pests (mice, flies, wasps, slugs etc)
several species of finfish (and lots of em')
countless oysters, clams, mussels, and crabs (dungeness...yum)
chickens, grouse, ducks, geese, quail
several deer
four moose


As far as I'm concerned industrial farming is cruel. It's too bad most people don't know what happened to the piece of plastic wrapped meat that's in their supermarket.

in the interest of not steering the thread away from where it was headed, this'll be brief, but not all on point.

good points, charlie. i can see the logic in the slavery comparassions, but agree that there isn't an equality there.

i disagree on the point that we owe them more because we're responsible. who's to say that they feel enough to even dislike it? if so, couldn't we breed generations of masochist chickens? how could PETA argue if the animals liked it?

that said, for the most part, humanely raised meat just plain TASTES better. IMO, that's the best reason for it.

carry on with your kill lists.

I've killed one of my cats, hit it right between the eyes with my dad's .22 as an act of mercy. It had feline leukemia and was in pain. It was an easy shot even though I didn't have a scope.

I haven't killed anything hunting yet, but I hope to soon because venison burgers are sooo tasty. I fish a lot too.

I think that fighting an animal hand to hand is the dumbest idea ever. I mean, do you really think you're going to get close enough to a deer to jump on it and then fight it to death? The idea is laughable. Hell, even if you could jump on it, you couldn't kill it. If you actually did end up killing the thing, it would be a bloody, painful, gruesome death. But hey, maybe it would be more sporting....

Humans are weak, frail little things. Many animals would be more than capable of killing a single human that was unarmed.

If nature were left to its own devices they would die anyway. Probably in a much more gruesome way than at a slaughterhouse. Nature tends to do things pretty painfully.

Anyone who honestly believes that the world would be a better place without the automated slaughter of domesticated animals for food really needs to grow up and stop living in carebear world.

As Maddox says... for every animal you don't eat, I'm eating two.

Let's face the facts. Man is a carnivorous animal, he was designed to eat meat. If you really think that is evil then I don't know what to say. In order to satisfy a basic need, man has used his intelligence to devise a reasonably humane and efficient way to achieve his goal.

Instead of natural weapons like claws and teeth or brute strength, man has intelligence. Arguably the best weapon of all.

Well, actually if you look at the state of things, it's not even debatable. Survival of the fittest.

Hmm, I don't know if I have a firm stance on hunting. At some level I think it's frivolous entertainment. However, when I really think about it, am forced to concede that it is really nothing more than an inefficient slaughterhouse and therefore kindof falls under the above.

It's the animals that take a bullet and still live only to die hours later that somewhat make me question the humanity of it all.


As far as raising animals explicitly for hunting... meh. Controlled curcumstances are arguably more humane than hunting in the wild. I think any real hunter would argue that it takes the sport out of it anyways so is pretty undesirable. I am not a hunter so I don't know.

Exactly. And that's why we have guns.

I grew up in farm country and my dad was a butcher. I have personally killed many rural pests, I have fished and I have also done a job similar to BigBen's with the chickens. I have been witness to the slaughtering and butchering of cattle and pigs as well.

I'm not squeamish when it comes to these sorts of things. For one, death is a part of life. Everything living dies; that some things have died by my hand doesn't bother me. Whether that groundhog dies because I shot it or by the rabies infection doesn't matter in the least to the groundhog. The fish may well be eaten by a bear (yes there were bears where I grew up, although I thankfully have never encountered one personally). The chicken.. well, they're too stupid to come in from the rain. The ways they die are without number.

Humans are carnivorous by nature. We require proteins that can only be had by eating meet and we have the teeth to back it up. We have sharp canines; even though they've receded, they are there and that's a carnivore trait. (Yes we have molars as well; this is because we are omnivores and thus possess traits of both carnivores and herbivores). Part of eating meat is killing the animal it comes from; thus I've caught my fair share of fish.

EDIT - And BigBen, it's interesting that you cite the intelligence of deer as a reason not to kill them. Do you support hunting as a means of population control? I'm of the mind that it's better to shoot the deer now than let it starve to death in winter, but I understand there are those who oppose this view.

EDIT #2 -
It's a learned thing, actually. When you see it from an early age, you get used to it. It's less about not making a connection between the two and more about accepting the fact that if I want ham that pig has to die for me to have it.

There's a reason I'm very vocal about wasting food. Well, okay, several. But being Scottish isn't the reason I had in mind.

I believe that was me. Honestly, if I had any attraction to vension, I would find ways to elasticize my ethics on deer and elk hunting. But I don't like venison, despite every hunter who swears they have "the" recipe to make it taste good. All my family has hunted and swears they love venison. and they all have packages of venison that have been in their freezer for more than a year, while they throw some sausages or steak on the grill.

I don't support expanding deer season or increasing limits to control population.

That would be awesome... just like the Dish of the Day at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

Although I am not a professor of linguistics, I have to take exception to the statements claiming that humans are Carnivores;

Carnivores are animals that eat meat exclusively (think lions, hyenas)

Herbivores are animals that eat vegetables exclusively (think cows and rabbits)

Omnivores eat a diet that consists of both meat and vegetables (think bears, humans)

Just saying.

It seems that I have fallen into the classical investigative trap: I am getting responses from those who have killed for sport, those who have killed for food, and those who have killed by accident. I was trying to get a representative sample, and only those involved in the process are replying, possibly skewing my results. Do people think I am mistaken in my hypothesis that:

Most consumers of meat products have never witnessed (nor participated) in the death of said food animal.

Hmmm. Looking at the responses, I think I may have to reevaluate my thinking.

The only animal that I have seen killed and then eaten was a fish. I have never had the opportunity, despite spending time on farms, to see an animal killed that I eventually ate.

Not all hunters kill for sport, I'd venture to say that most hunters kill both for food and sport. True most of us are able to go to the store to purchase beef, pork, chicken, fish, and turkey, however until you've tried wild game, you don't know what your missing, that bird in the picture i posted above, was by far the best turkey i have ever eaten. So much so that i will likely never purchase another turkey again. Did I hunt it for sport? Sure, but understand that i also hunted it for meat and fed it to my family.

My opinion has always been that it is fine to kill animals if you have a good reason. Good reasons for me include using the animal for food\materials, protecting people\property, and as a part of wildlife management. Killing just for the sake of killing is abhorent and humans should be above that.

I don't believe animals have souls, so I have no problem with them being killed in a manner that isn't specifically cruel and tortured. Chickens beheaded? I don't care... it's not something like cutting it's legs off and just letting it bleed to death. That would be wrong.

BigBen - You're falling into the common trap of assuming the three phenotypes (carnivore, herbivore and omnivore) are exclusive. The reality is quite the opposite; a carnivore is a creature that eats flesh. An herbivore is a creature that eats plant. An omnivore is a creature whose diet consists of both; therefore, an omnivore may be defined as both a carnivore and an herbivore. However, the distinction that is commonly accepted is that a carnivore is a creature that eats exclusively meat; this is why I used the derivative adjective (carnivorous) and not the noun. I don't know any better way to describe man's meat eating tendencies (and physiological dependence on such) than as carnivorous. That we are also herbivorous does not nullify the fact.

And I have no problem accepting the idea that most people who eat meat have never been part of the killing process. So yeah, the results are a bit skewed. I find it a bit hard to swallow that 97% of the world's (or even North America's) population are fish and game enthusiasts.

I apologize for the misquote.

However, your stance on the issue is interesting to me. The deer overpopulation issues in most of North America are caused by the relative scarcity of it's natural predators, cougars and wolves being ones that spring immediately to mind. There are those who would blame the lack of these animals on humanity, yet decry humanity assuming the role that they've vacted; ie, culling the herd, eliminating those who fail to compete and keeping the population in check. A wolf pack on the hunt or a cougar waiting to pounce cares not a whit for the intelligence of it's prey, or even whether it has a fair chance. The idea of a humane kill is (as the name implies) a human trait. I have previously seen coyotes eating an animal that was still living. That could hardly be considered humane treatment.

Population control is ultimately for the benefit of the animal in question as much as it is for us, or such is my belief. Extending deer season or raising quotas means I'm less likely to trash my car on a deer. It also means that some hunter has more meat and an extra trophy for his wall. But aside from all that, it means the surviving animals have less competition for food and shelter. It means that the deer left standing have more food in the forest and are therefore less likely to wander into someone's back yard, where they might mistake antifreeze for a sweet and tasty treat, or onto the road where they'll have a fatal disagreement with an 18 wheeler.

That's my take on the issue. Care to elaborate on yours?

In any case, I stand by my belief that death is a part of life. Personally, I can think of no more noble reason to die than to extend the life of another. Sure as hell beats getting shot in an alley for the fifty bucks in my wallet, anyway.

I love falling into common traps.

It keeps me grounded. I often wonder what regular people think and behave like, and thus participate in common failures and stereotypes to retain my touch with the common man...

Think of it as "Intellectual Slumming", if you will! :lol: :lol:

Sorry if this is too crazy or off topic since you did say "animals" in the thread title, so I hope you can just ignore it if so, but I thought of it again as I read these responses. Why are we usually more concerned about killing animals, compared to, say, vegetables and viruses? I guess if something attacks you it's easier to justify killing as defense (i.e., viruses).

I've occasionally wondered, and argued with vegetarian/vegan friends, if we have less "respect" for vegetation than we do for animals simply due to human conceit that makes us think we're the most important living things in the universe, or maybe due to a lack of understanding of the equally important place vegetation has in our universe compared to animals (including humans). When I read about new discoveries about ways that trees and other vegetation "communicate" it just gives me more food for thought ;) ...mental omnivour

Dare to be average, indeed.

Are you suggesting that I'm out of touch with the common man?

We are not amused...

Virii aren't alive and therefore can't be killed. A virus is just a strand of molecules, something of a genetic instruction manual. Through a series of chemical reactions, it bonds with a specific type of cell and injects it's own RNA into said cell, causing the cell to start producing more virii instead of carrying on normal cellular function. There's no rection to stimuli outside of very narrowly defined parameters and no signs of any real form of life.

And as to vegetables, it's less about a lifeform's importance in the universe and more about a lifeform's claim to thought and sentience. We know we think and we know that the organ that allows us that is our brain. We know that animals have brains but plants don't. It's therefore no great leap to assume that other animals may be capable of thought an even sentience, where plants aren't. The equipment as we understand it just isn't present in a plant.

A humane kill is not a natural kill. Unless you allow overpopulation to take care of itself naturally, it'll continue to happen. If you allow a natural solution to overpopulation, the animals that die will be the old, the young, and the infirm. That is proper population management. When you introduce extended hunting seasons and increase limits on kills to control population, the balance gets out of whack.

(edited quote)

This is a good point to make. I'd like to get your thoughts on the manner we take animals from the forest. A wolfpack seeks to eliminate the weakest members of the herd in order to reduce risk for themselves. A human, with his or her powerful weaponery, has the ability (and often uses it) to take the strongest or choiciest member of their prey. This sets a new evolutionary standard, and perhaps a very destructive one. The biggest, strongest, best of the species are taken each and every year. Is this in the best interest of hunters, our people, or the world in general? Should there be a movement to promote taking smaller, weaker animals instead of the biggest or best?

This is not necessarily true, it not always the largest, strongest or best animal of the species I am hunting that I take, but rather the largest one that has given me the opportunity to kill it. It takes more than size and strength to survive in the wild, it also takes intelligence. The turkey that I shot this spring was not a very wise bird, nor was he the largest i'd seen that week. It wandered into a wide open area, knew I was there, stuck it's head up (affording me a perfect shot at it) and looked directly at me for approximately 5 seconds before I shot it. I was not well camoflaged at all, as a matter of fact I was wearing what you see in the picture.

I bet the turkey was depressed and looking for a way out.

There's no Charter Hospital for turkeys.

It looks really tasty, by the way. Wild turkey is great.

When I moose hunt, I always go for the small ones (900 lbs is a small one).
Any hunter knows that a small buck or bull is better table fare than a large one.

Around here in BC you must take the meat of any big game animal you kill. Leaving it in the bush is not an option.

Not necesarily true. Your assertion begs the question of what is a natural death? Starvation? Coyotes?

Natural selection is not some holy process to be put up on a pedestal. In fact, it cannot be avoided. The strongest, the best suited are always going to survive while the weaker and more poorly suited will not. Man is a predator who introduces a new evolutionary pressure. This requires of the deer that they be more intelligent, faster and that they not stand in one spot for too long. The deer who behave in this manner are the ones who get shot. The deer who do not survive.

I have never killed an animal ever - never even thought of it.

When I was quite young I had pet rabbits and someone killed those. I found them on our lawn. That sickened me!
I could never understand why someone would do that???

I killed a rabbit which was wounded by a stray cat in my front yard. My mother didn't want me to stab it in the head with a knife, which I thought would be quick and painless, so I was told to bludgeon it with a baseball bat until it died. Overall a very disturbing process.

Omong the avian population kitty and myself are known as Thanatos and Hermes. :|

I don't claim it as a truth, only a personal belief. If there is an overpopulation problem near me, I'll be the on feeding them sammiches through the winter.