Playing with scissors on your next United flight
 

So the US transportation agency is about to relax the rules concerning what you can carry on to an aircraft, with sharp objects such as scissors now being allowed on as carry on items.

I really don't see the sense in this - while I think any future attacks are likely to adopt a different tactic, why tempt fate here? No one desperately needs to have scissors on board an airplane, anyway.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4487162.stm

The US is to relax its post-9/11 ban on airline passengers carrying sharp objects, in a move which has alarmed flight attendants and some politicians.
Small scissors and similar items will be allowed from 22 December, says transport security chief Kip Hawley.

Screeners will spend more time checking for explosives under guidelines which will allow for more random searches.

The 9/11 hijackers used small box-cutting knives to seize the planes which they then flew into buildings.

Box cutters and other kinds of knives will remain banned.

The ban on carrying sharp objects on to planes was introduced following the hijackings, in which almost 3,000 people were killed.


Objects such as scissors and razors were placed on a list which meant they could not be carried as hand luggage into the cabin of a plane, and had to be stored in luggage in the hold.

The practice has been followed in other countries since then.



The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) said earlier that it was planning to make better use of its resources.

Mr Hawley, head of the TSA, said that small scissors and tools accounted for about 25% of prohibited items found in passengers' carry-on bags.

Along with small scissors, tools like screwdrivers, wrenches and pliers less than 18cm long will be removed from the prohibited items list.

It was vital, he said, that terrorists should not be able to know with certainty what screening procedures they would encounter at US airports.

"By incorporating unpredictability into our procedures and eliminating low-threat items, we can better focus our efforts on stopping individuals who wish to do us harm," he added.

Air Transport Association spokesman David Castelveter said earlier that he was aware of the plans, and that the industry supported them.

"What we believe, as does the TSA, is that we should be focusing on what poses the greatest risk," he said.

But many flight attendants believe that while such objects could not be used to carry out a 9/11 style hijacking, the items could still be used as weapons to injure other passengers or crew members.

"When weapons are allowed back on board an aircraft, the pilots will be able to land the plane safely but the aisles will be running with blood," said Corey Caldwell, a spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants.

Two US Congressmen, Ed Markey and Joseph Crowley, have said they will oppose relaxing the ban with a bill.

"The Bush administration proposal is just asking the next Mohamed Atta [9/11 hijacker] to move from box-cutters to scissors as the weapon that's used in the passenger cabin of planes," Mr Markey said.

In my opinion there is no need for any carry on baggage, maybe a book but no more. As for the scissors, why do you need scissors on a plane. For what possible purpose would you need them? that being said i once left some scissors in my bag and they made me throw them away. When i say scissors i mean those ones for kids of about 2 where there is almost no blade, that seemed over the top to me. Anyway i can't see the reason for relaxing the rules if anything they should make the rules harsher.

I've often felt that the a lot of what has been banned was ridiculous. A pair of nail scissors, saftey razors, nail clippers... these aren't going to threaten anyone.

The precautions have been a bit over the top.

Try spending some time at your local penitentiary and see what wonderful things imaginative criminals can do with such items. You wouldn't be saying "they aren't going to threaten anyone".

Like I said, I think any future attacks will adopt a different approach but you know, I've flown maybe 50 or 60 times - I've never needed a pair of scissors on a flight.

I understand that. I never find the need myself. Where it becomes ridiculous is when I have seen little old ladies getting hassled at the gate over a pair of nail scissors or clippers. There is no way someone is going to hijack a plane with these dull impliments.

Nail clippers are the oddest. What are they going to do, give me a manicure if I don't fly to Cuba?

I appreciate the need to be better safe than sorry but there are some items on the list that really can't do any damage.

I don't know if you've flown LATELY, but the airlines lost one of my bags going, and two of them coming, on my last flight. We carried on bags because they contained the clothes we needed to wear in a wedding.

My wife has makeup "modules," and she has had to reorganize them in order to take out nail clippers and the like. Personally, I worry a lot more about explosives than about what a terrorist could do with a pair of scissors.

I'd be more concerned with the plastic knives onboard than nail clippers or a pair of scissors. Sometimes stupid kneejerk rules should be relaxed and it appears this one has.

Great, figures that the rules go into effect the day after I get back from my trip to Hong Kong. So much for carrying scissors with me ;)

Any time I've ever flown on business I travel with only hand luggage, so if i want to take a razor it has to be in cabin uggage.

If I check hold baggage it takes me an extra hour to get out of the airport - screw that.

A pen, pencil, sharpened toothbrush are more dangerous than nail clippers, if anything, they should be banned - the war on terror is just retarded.

Oh my gawd, Charlatan! I laughed so hard, I couldn't breathe! :lol:

I have a 'grooming kit' that I have to leave home when I fly, which I always thought was nuts-it would be in my suitcase, but that didn't matter. ( I do agree, bags shouldn't be carried on, they're a nuisance, especially on smaller planes-waiting for all those people to yank out the bags they shoved in there when we land makes me want to start yelling in my 'mommy voice')
Now, about that 'no lighter' rule...but 4 packs of matches is ok. :hmm:

this sounds good to me. if someone tries to take over a plane with a scissors, do you really think other passengers will sit back in fear? i don't think people are going to give in that easy. and banning blades does not eliminate cutting options. anyone can break a CD and start slashing. i've thought these rules were dumb for quite a while and i'm glad to see these developments.

sadly the MA congressman is trying to retain the ban.

back in the beginning when tweezers were considered a 'dangerous weapon' and mine were confiscated... I asked the tsa guard if they though i had planned on grooming people to death.. now i realized that some people were big sissies when it came to having their hair yanked out by the roots... but... (this was the same guard, by the way, who also never saw the swiss army knife that was attached to my keychain)

There are billions of ways for terrorist to use simple everyday object to attack anybody, anywhere, anytime. How would you like it if the Homeland Security Department would restrict absolutely everything in public place? Well, then the terrorist have won.

Beside, you got a point, who the hell need scissors on planes anyways?

You must travel pretty light. I'm gonna have to disagree with you here, there's loads of thing to bring with you onto the plane. For starters, your passport, document, book, travel guide, medication, diapers, food, etc and I'm pretty sure you can't cram all of those things in your pockets

Everybody has their own reason and the ones that I've stated above are the more common ones.

Lighters have fuel in them don't they? Pop one open, smear it over something and light it up and you got yourself a plane on fire

Beside, one can make a bomb that looks like a lighter and act like a lighter.

Man, I gotta stop thinking like Q

I always thought the rules for nail files, clippers, pocket knives, etc after 9/11 was more knee jerk than a tactical defense. But then again it was a damned if you ban damned if you don't ban situation. I'm glad these rules are being relaxed although I doubt I will be allowed to fly with my Leatherman again.

Lighters are banned from carry on.

Swiss Army knife? Were I not married...

But will they let me take my snakes on a plane?

Only if its for your emotional needs :D

The main reason I can see for the need to bring scissors on board is for those who only have one carry on bag. There are plenty of overnight flyers who pack very light and only bring with them enough for carry on.


Psycho Dad... I too lament the fact that I can't carry my leatherman. It's always checked though. Except one time in the UK when I forgot it in my carry on and got sent back to the counter to check my luggage. Luckily I had another bag in my carryon and just checked it, empty but for my leatherman. The only other time was the time my leather man was in my carry on and I didn't notice it until I got home. I flew from Nice to Frankfurt and Frankfurt to Toronto without anyone saying boo about it.

People who don't see the importance of having a pair of scissors obviously never had problems with those fucking bags of peanuts they handed out during the flight. A lot better than using teeth, I say. :thumbsup:

Before the TSA decided to relax the rules, you COULD take knitting needles on a flight. Now, c'mon. I can take knitting needles on a plane but not nail clippers?

Ridiculous.

I'm glad they've finally seen the light. Now the flight attendants need to loosen up a bit and stop being so paranoid.

They still have my $500 antique razor (it was dull, I was taking it to give to a relative - I never got it back. It was "lost"). They didn't take my shoe laces, pens or pencils, belt, ring, watch, sunglasses, actual shaving kit - including straight razor - or money clip. I see that as absurd.

Thank God this is ending. Can I have my razor back now?

With my luck and that had happened to me, I would have been strip searched by someone with the word fister included in their nickname.

isnt it always better to be prevent then something bad happen cos of you didnt realize would happen ? i dont see why they have to relax the items that can bring on the plane . however, i think they might can change the rule if they find something dangerous which same time mean a lot to us. they can let us mail it instead just take it and didnt give us back .

You would think. But where does the line need to be drawn? We have a guy who attempts to set off a bomb in his sneakers and the next thing you know I'm caught in Sky Harbor Airport on my way to Burbank with holes in my socks for all the world to see.

These reactions we have in airport security are likely only giving us a sense of security rather than protection.

[QUOTE=These reactions we have in airport security are likely only giving us a sense of security rather than protection.[/QUOTE]

sound very very sad tho like there nothing you can do about it :hmm:

The problem is that the prohibitions should be guidelines, coupled with common sense, and instead, screeners are just using them as a hard and fast rule, with no thought involved.

One security specialist gave the example that a nail file was confiscated, but a large diecast model of the Statue of Liberty was more dangerous and not even considered to be a weapon.

Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right.

In a perfect world maybe. But we haven't made it that far.

He saw it, Mal, but if he mentioned it, he'd also have to mention that mini-vibrator next to it, and he was too embarassed... :D

That's somewhat true. Make something idiot proof and they'll build a better idiot... it's a long time motto of mine that holds true in other cases... make something terror proof and they'll find another way. We will never get rid of terrorism 100%. It's existed since the dawn of civilized humanity, and it will continue as long as we're around. Sadly, I don't know the exact quote, but something to the effect of, those willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. It's true! Like someone above mentioned... you can be strangled fairly easily with a shoelace... should they be banned? My car keys could be extremely dangerous... should they be checked? What about my necklace? A watch? I'm a US Army Combat Engineer... I could pack enough C4 into a small watch to cause havoc on a plane... those should be banned as well. Radios? Laptops? A wallet? wallets could be lined with explosives. They could have a small pouch of Anthrax in them that could be tossed into ventilation. Four books of matches? There's toilet paper in the bathroom right? Isn't it flamable? Why smear gas from a lighter and light it (it'd burn out pretty fast). Why not light the whole bathroom on fire? Pens and pencils are allowed... they could be used to stab you. Technically, you could make a small, single-use gun out of a larger pen. Or make a blow gun out of several pentubes in 2 or 3 minutes while sitting in the bathroom. A poisoned blow gun dart or two could send a plane into panic.

I could go on for pretty much hours listing possibilities that are TRULY viable, and also would be ridiculous to give up as freedoms. Soon you'll be able to go to the airport, strip, put on a hospital gown and board the plane. *boggle*

not to be nit-picky but... a sharpened toothbrush??? :lol:

Stand back or I will clip her nails!
NOOOOOoo, thats a $60 French manicure! I'll be disfigured! The captain won't sleep with me!


All these measures are there to keep us feeling safe and from the programs and articles I've seen on this issue, we arn't. However you have a bigger chance of being struck by lightning then being involved in a terrorist act. So, meh.

that's one of the weapons often turned up in prison searches.. take the end of the toothbrush and just file it so that it becomes a sharp pointy weapon...

I'm pretty sure you'd have to be on a flight full of old people or cripples to let a terrorist take over a flight with most everyday objects; a guy with a knife wouldn't stand much of a chance in closed quarters with three or four average guys, let alone scissors or knitting needles. They need to hire people like me to sit there with a blackjack and a tazer to keep order. It doesn't have to be on every flight, just randomly about half of them to scare off terrorists. Then train and lightly arm (like pepper spray and a blackjack) the flight attendants. Simple solution.

You can't use pepper spray in a closed circulation environment like an aircraft.

And how many "people like" you are they going to need per flight? Because a gang of 5 or 6 hardened terrorists are not going to be scared of any single man with a tazer. What do you think the costs of that would be like?

I simply don't see a downside to prohibiting big sharp cutting objects on flights at point of entry - a place far easier to control than the cabin.

Ohhh. I never knew that. :o

This I agree with... it is easy to chuckle at nail clippers, butter knives and nail scissors but a leatherman, box cutters and full sized scissors I think we can all agree are not a good idea.

There isn't much that can be done to prevent another suicide hijacking short of sedating everyone on board. I'll bet I could make a weapon that's a lot worse than a box cutter with a flat roll of duct tape (the pocket-sized 6-foot roll that's flat instead of round,) a walkman, and a quarter. I am also finding myself wishing we had a Macgyver smiley.

give up?
Spoiler: throw a walkman battery at the bathroom mirror to break it, select a nice long shard of glass, score the glass with the edge of a quarter and break it over the edge of the sink, then wrap duct tape around the wide end to form a handle. Presto, glass machete.


edit: I could also just use my fully legal 7-inch screwdriver.

we were attacked with our own planes.... this country needs to get over it. it happens / hapened. ill cut out some dollies on an airplane or something. i dont know why you would need them, but what i do know is i need the right to need them. if i dont have that right i mise well move to a different country

Do you have the right to a gun on an airplane?

Think you underestimate the phychological aspect, especially since everyone is pretty much paralysed with fear by the thought of terrorists anyway.
All it'd take is a couple of guys with these 'everyday objects' to grab a hostess put a siccor blade to her throat drawing blood shouting in arabic and broken english telling everyone that she and they will be killed unless they cooperate, you'd have a plane of pretty paniked, cooperative hostages.

and I don't want to hear any 'well if I was there i'd piledrive his ass' crap.

I think the measures were there more to fuel the fear and to make it look as though preventative actions were being taken. Certainly ban weapons - guns knives etc, that makes sense anywhere as far as I'm concerned.

If you have the proper permit, you can carry a gun on a domestic flight (generally, you have to be a federal law enforcement officer). If you have a diplomatic passport and the proper permit, you can carry a gun on an international flight.

Otherwise, no.

Too bad if you don't want to hear it... when did Americans become such pussies? We fought tooth and nail to gain our independance, to fight about slavery, to fight (twice) for world freedom. Now we can barely keep a military together (at least in the form it has historically been) because we can't yell at soldiers or treat them badly? W...T...F...? As far as the stewardess... I'm sorry, I'd rather one person die than a whole plane full (or a whole building full). One pretty blonde losing her life isn't going to stop me from trying to prevent a larger incident. *boggle*

I didn't say Americans were pussies.

Anywat what about all the guys who were on the flights that were used, were they all 'pussies' - they were only using box cutters- It's easy to talk like that when your sat behind a computer,
My point is - taking control of a plane can be done through pretty much through intimidation alone.

It has nothing to do with sitting behind my computer. Hey, remember that one plane where someone DID do something about it? And no, you didn't say Americans were pussies... I did! Intimidation is not a valid excuse to let thousands of people die. My life is not greater than the lives of all of those in the WTC. It's sad that some people can't see that. Besides, they died anyway... why just sit there pissing you pants. If you're almost definitely going to die anyway, you may as well prevent as many seconday deaths as possible.

Did that really happen though? Wasn't there some black box/cockpit recording that suggested the whole "let's roll" thing was not what really happened? I remember this being talked about for a while and then nada.

Edit: Now I recall, there was a recording of the guy saying he and a couple of others were going to do something against the hijackers but we never learned what the outcome was - whether they did it, or deliberately crashed the plane or it was shot down.

Anyway, what d*d is saying is true, people do freeze and can be afraid to act, even if when thinking straight they know that they should get up and do something about a dangerous situation. Most passengers won't likely interfere.

The other thing that is being forgotten in this haste to apply the lable, "pussy" is that prior to September 11th, hijackers didn't fly planes into buildings.

The practice when confronted by a hijacker was to do as they say and noone will get hurt. The plane would land in some neutral territory (Cuba or Palestine) and usually noone would get hurt.

The one plane where they did fight back (if in fact this is what happened) did so because they found out that two other planes had already crashed into the WTC.

If a group tried to take a plane today, I have no question in my mind that people would risk injury or death to stop the hijack (short of the hijacker carrying a gun).

That said, in all likelihood, the plane would be shot down before it got anywhere near it's destination.

I agree. The boxcutter routine will not work again and even if they use a gun. Once people realize they are going to die anyway they will be very difficult to control.

I know how to make flights safe! all passengers should have to fly naked! Thats right birthday suit planes!

exactly -- i have a colleague who was a pilot for eastern... the policy was to cooperate and get the plane on the ground safely... (and if you go to cuba bring back some cigars) That all changed...

Then why do people keep letting themselves get kidnapped in Iraq, knowing it is a likely death sentence?

Because people freeze and don't know how or when to act. The rational aspect of the brain gets overruled by the irrational "oh, I'm screwed" portion of the brain.

Highthief I don't think you can easily compare the two situations. In a plane, you are in a very small space. The kind of weapon being used has a limited range and the hostages vastly out number the hijackers.

I agree, most people would freeze initially, but given enough time, courage can build.

IIRC, the "shoe bomber" was taken under control by passengers (as have been a few rowdy drunks since 9/11). I'd suspect that there would be many able and willing people to put up a fight against a hijacker or hijackers with scissors or maybe even a gun.

BTW, now that I think of it... I can't recall hearing any tales of Air Marshalls getting any situations under control since their placement on some US flights.

This is true. Even though I'm a self proclaimed pacifist, I'd probably try something if someone tried to take my plane. In the case of most hijackings, the hijackers are greatly outnumbered, and maybe one of them is armed, rarely with a gun. Those seem like fair odds. I suggest to anyone on a hijacked plane to try and take back the plane. Afterwards, maybe give em wet willies until you get back on the ground. Show them the consequences for their actions.

I dunno... For me, my "fight or flight" instinct is very strong, and when flight isn't an option (like on an airborne plane) that fight instinct is not to be trifled with!

Sure you can - if you know, conceptually, that if you get taken hostage and won't be let go until "all prisoners are released by the infidels" or words to that effect, you are a complete idiot if you allow yourself to be taken. Every westerner should be walking around with a hand grenade with one hand on the pin, ready to blow himself and 5 terrorists up should they try and take him. But it doesn't happen.

You don't even have to go that far, if that is too far out for you - crimes, violent crimes, are commited every day in public places, in subways and parking lots and city streets, people are beaten and robbed and even killed, yet dozens of bystanders stand there, unable to move, knowing that what they are seeing is wrong, yet are unwilling or unable to do anythign about it.

Most people are simply too afraid to do very much.

they can do all this security bullshit they want. if someone is going to make an attack on an airplane it will happen. marshals wont do shit snipers wont do shit, because no one will know untill it happens. we can have these face scanners, fingerprint scanners.... for everynew waste of money we throw out there.... there is another way around it.

and you know what yes i think we should all carry guns. if eveyone had a gun everyone would be afraid to rob anyone or comit a crime because everyone in that bank or on that plane would have a gun, and that person would get shot

By your tone of your post I sounds like you would like a laisser-fair approach to air travel. Everyone should carry, no precautions should be taken... sounds like a great idea. :rolleyes:

I think we can ALL agree that there should be some level of security on airplanes. The question lies in where to draw the line.

As for everyone carrying weapons on a plane... not a great idea. I am willing to concede the argument that crime will drop if everyone is packing (not that I agree with the idea just that I will concede). An airplane is a closed environment. No one else should have guns or weapons. Hence there should be no need for any weapon beyond your fists (if it comes down to it).

Personally, I feel the TSA has done absolutely nothing to stop terrorists, compared to pre-9/11 airport security. You aren't going to stop real terrorists with a couple of x-ray machines and wands. Their new procedures are stupid and just waste millions of travelers' time. They should either use newer and better technology, simply ban carry-ons altogether, or do what Israel does and question people & watch for suspicious behavior instead of scanning them for possible weapons.

Personally, if I was a terrorist, I'd much rather target large train stations with biological or chemical weapons. Like, go to Grand Central Terminal, NYC or Montgomery St BART/MUNI station, San Francisco or State Station, Chicago, and leave a bomb somewhere that will go off shortly before rush hour. Carrying something very lethal like VX or anthrax. THAT, in my opinion, is a much greater threat than some terrorist trying to hijack a plane. And MUCH harder to protect against. Yet the government spends less money on protecting mass transit train systems than airports, and they STILL don't get the latter right.