Rage....Taking over...
 

On Friday last week I was out for a walk, trying to make the most of the few snowless days left for the year. As I got closer to my house I saw some kids(ages 7-8) playing. It looked like they were throwing a stuffed animal against a wall as high as they could to see who could throw the highest. Once I got closer the "stuffed animal" meowed, they had been throwing a live cat against the wall!

I ran over and picked the cat up and started yelling at the little miscreants. I must admit I got a lot of satisfaction when a couple of them started crying. I took the cat home to see what I could do for it. It has obviously been homeless for a while, it was skin and bones. It didn't have the strength to walk and from what I could tell it was blind. I called the town vet but he was gone for the weekend. It died in my lap about two hours after I got it home.

I went to the house the kids were playing near and was able find and tell one of the kids dads about what had happened, he flipped out! He said he would track down who else was involved and tell their parents.

I'm still furious about it all, and its been three days, I have such a strong desire to find these kids and throw them against a wall.

I'm glad you made the kid cry... Monster child...

I hope that the parent doesn't beat the snot out of the kid and instead takes it for therapy instead. This is a seriously disturbed child. There was probably one ring leader and the rest of 'em just followed along.

and a blessing on your head for giving that poor cat some compassion in it's last hours of life...

That's some fucked up shit right there. How can people do those sort of things to animals?

Oh my god.
I wish I knew where kids get the idea that animals don't have feelings or are not living creatures like us... how horrible. I'm so glad you stepped in - at least the poor cat died in safe place - that's probably the happiest the poor thing had ever been.

Here's hoping the parents are all horrified and teach their kids better.

Violence in children against animals usually represents displaced hostility and aggression coming from neglect or abuse of the child. Animal cruelty committed by any member of the family, whether parent or child, often means child abuse occurs in that family (dad might beat the dog, so little sport throws the cat). I would be willing to bet all that will come of your intervention is a small beating, followed by continued neglect. CD (conduct disorder), the cause of the animal cruelty, can and will only be exasorbated by the father abusing his son.

I feel terrible about that poor cat. I wish parents would pay better attention to the way the act in front of their kids and the way they treat their kids.

And if Tom Cruise is reading this: How am I right about an abusive father if psychology is a pseudo science? That's what I thought.

What a bunch of little cold hearted shits. I'm glad you said something to them. I get enraged over animal abuse, moreso than the average person. It'd take some SERIOUSLY fucked up kids to throw a live animal against a wall. I've never even heard of such a thing. I hope whatever needs to be done to the kids is done and they learn respect for living, breathing creatures.

-Lasereth

Well before I'd go condemning the parents (though it is always possible) kids at that age are not really good at empathy.

What you had was a pack basically and someone in that pack was 'showing off' how strong/mean they were. I can remember that age, and its amazing to me when I see how innocent these little kids seem to me as an adult how vicious we were at that age to each other.

Amen. Just reading about this makes me absolutely sick, but thank you for taking care of the situation, and for your kindness and compassion for the most helpless of creatures.
*heartfelt hugs*

Hopefully the little fuckers got their asses collectively beat.

There's no reason for kids to do stupid shit like that.Even children have some common sense.

Like I said, if they were beaten, it actually reinforces their action. It will not deter them from animal cruelty since it is likely the cause.

Serial killers in the making, IMO.

An interesting, well thought-out response.

I'm more inclined to the opinion that people are sewage, and kids the worst of all. I wish I could say I was shocked to read that children could be capable of behaving in such a venomous, despicable fashion, but sadly nothing of this nature surprises me anymore.

I'd like to see them try it with a tiger cub, that's all I can say.

Here's one link:

Can animals feel pain?

It doesn't make the case for animals not being living creatures, but it does make the case for them not feeling pain. Honestly, I think people tend to overeact when animals are mentioned. We have children, which are supposedly the most important thing for humanity. But many people in this thread seemingly would like to see these children harmed (and we know they feel pain) just because of what they did to some stupid cat. Many people seem more than willing to attribute human feelings and emotions on animals when there's no logical reason to do so. Personally, I blame Disney. As the article states, it's mostly a matter of morals. And as we all should know by now, morals are nothing if not subjective.

Alan - While I would not equate anything resembling emotional pain to most animals, physical pain and suffering I do. Their nervous systems are developed well enough, and there reactions are little different from most humans.

I fish because I think the pain fish feel is reflexive and they do not react in a way that is consistent with pain in mammals. On the other hand I wouldn't toss a hook into a deer to catch it unless I was in danger of starving. It will feel pain.

Also I’m not sure if you read that article all the way...

Doesn’t really back up what you stated.

I don't have any particular fondness for cats, but reading this made me cringe. While the kids deserve a good smack in the ass or two (or three or four...) I can't help but think the parents contribute a good deal to why their kids turn out a certain way. I've learned there here in the US, least with Western culture, not enough kids are disciplined hard enough.. The lack of action on the parent's behalf seems to perpetuate further wrongful acts.

I'm sure there are other factors to blame: media- and the glorification of violence, being around other kids with juvi-potential etc, but early in life, much of the above can still be somewhat controlled or should be monitored by parents.

Not to mention that any dog or cat owner can tel you how much most of them enjoy being scratched. Hard to believe that they'd so obviously experience pleasure if pain doesn't register.

WTF? Marv, you have gone so over the top with that one. Care to back up that bullshit, or is this your personal pet experience?

I don't see where that would contradict what I was saying. It says that animal pain might be something different, and then ends with a question. If your answer is "yes, animal pain is something to be treated differently" or "no, animal pain should be treated the same as human pain" you are doing nothing but making a moral/ethics judgement (which is what I initially said). You yourself seem perfectly willing to put fish through a painful ordeal simply based on a peronal opinion that fish aren't feeling the same kind of pain. What's to stop someone from inflicting the same pain on a dog or cat because they don't think those animals feel the same kind of pain as humans? It's the exact same situation. I'm not condoning their actions, but I wanted to point out before everyone drops these kids in boiling oil, maybe things should be put in perspective. I mean, I've seen more compassion for terrorists.

Good for you. As was said, sometimes the best thing you can do is be there during the final moments. When the time comes, we all just want someone to be there- and while nothing can be done for the physical pain, just "being there" can help tremendously when they know their time is up.

I'd call the cops on them if I were you. The police will figure out who the ringleader is. At 7 & 8, kids will roll over on a "friend" in 2 seconds- I've seen it happen a few dozen times, and it's always the same.

However, if it were me, I'd have yelled until they all cried so hard their eyes bled. There is no excuse for abusing and torturing an animal like this.

I remember here in Australia some older teenagers were seen torturing a cat, I believe they were punished quite severly by the law. Elphaba I think you misunderstood him, the way I interpreted it Marv was talking about how cats and dogs enjoy being patted.

All I know is when I feel pain (physical or emotional) my Dinkydawg knows it and does what she can to make me feel better. When I am happy, my Dinkydawg is right there to get her share of it by my rubbing her tummy.

My dog empathizes my pain and shares in my happiness far more than my exwife ever could or most humans I have met.

If my dog can show empathy like that then she knows pain and happiness from her own experience.

I know when I step on her paw by accident and she yelps she's felt pain.

I know when I have been gone longer than usual and she welcomes me at the door with her tail wagging she knows pleasure.

I know when she wants to be alone she'll growl when I try to pet her.

I know when I yell at, and her head bows she feels guilt and sorrow.

I know when I praise her and her hers go up and her tail wags she is full of pride.

I know my Dinkydawg likes people I like, dislikes people I dislike and when my ex and I fought, Dinkydawg knew who was right and who was wrong and would take the side of the one who was right by growling, barking and nipping at the ankle..... and quite often it was me..... and no Dinky didn't react to the yelling she reacted to the emotion she felt coming from us. And Dinkydawg was not a fan of my ex, so when she took the ex's side I knew I was in the wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that animals are far far more intelligent then some people give them credit for and are more in tuned with their feelings than most humans.

Would you please ask your question a little more clearly, and I'll attempt to answer it, in spite of how obnoxious you've been so far?

I hate to be a "serial killer in the making" here.. but I laughed.. yup I laughed. Cats suck.

Would I do that to a cat? No, I wouldn't. Maybe I just watch too many cartoons and just imagine the cat bouncing like a ball back to the kids.. :shrug:

You think it's funny that a living creature was beaten so badly that it died? Seek help.

No I was laughing that it was a cat being thrown against a wall. Did it deserve to die.. no.


Had I seen the act IRL, I wouldn't have laughed I'm sure.

So tell me.. why should I seek help??

Oh, for fuck's sake, people.

1. Yes, the kids are assholes, pack mentality or not. I don't doubt it was... But they deserve to be punished and have the shit scared out of them. Kids who grow up thinking it's okay to hurt and maim another living being - human or other animal - become adults who feel the same way. And there's a lot of studies supporting the idea that sociopaths are often the culprits of this kind of shit as children.

2. guccilvr, I normally enjoy and like you. But there isn't anything funny about this.

3. alansmithee, this is not a political discussion. There is only one point: this sucks, the kids who did it suck, and it was wrong morally ethically etc as humans for them to do it. You might consider that it's getting strong reactions because it's not some depraved terrorist, it's a bunch of 7-8 yo kids. That makes it worse.

4. Elphaba, again, I normally like you. Re-read, please. Marv was making a valid point. Yin and yang, basic principles. Pleasure does not exist without pain as contrast.

How is there any question that this is wrong?

You answered your question with your first sentence.

SO what? I laughed. I said it was a comical image in my head. I also stated that I would have reacted differently had I actually seen the event occur. Chill out. A cat died. No need to cry over it.

Now, on to the other matter at hand. It's evident that at least a couple of kids were sorry for what they did, which is a good sign. (I'd hate for them to have to seek help like I so evidently need to :rolleyes: ) I also need to say that if laughing at a cat being thrown against a wall is sign's of needing help, then wanting to seek out children and throw them against the wall is also a sign of needing help.

The fact is that the kids did something stupid and mean. Kids are mean. Does it constitute bad parenting? Not necessarily. Does it mean they have "serial killer" tendencies? Not necessarily. The kids were undoubtedly punished and hopefully they have learned the lesson that mistreating animals is not a good thing to do. They should just leave that up to the people drawing comics and cartoons.


no need to retort this ... I'm late for an appointment with my shrink

Elph, I think Marv is saying "scratched" as in "scratched with fingers behind the ears and on the belly", not "scratched with a fork and drawing blood". This demonstrates that they can experience pleasure, and if that is so, they can probably also experience pain.

I didn't say it was a political discussion. I'm just saying before people stone these children, maybe they should realize it's just some stupid stray cat. You say it was wrong, I say "ehh". Being kids, they might not have been fed into the "animals are saints" belief that many in this thread seem to be putting forth. Or maybe they did realize what they were doing, and wanted to hurt it. Either way, it's not that big of a deal.

Yes, it is a big deal. The inability to feel compassion is a key trait in a psychopathic personality. If the guardians of these children didn't treat it as a big deal, the kids might grow up thinking it's OK to torture animals.

I'm frankly surprised that you fail to feel compassion for this animal. Is it because you think the cat is not worthy of compassion because the animal is not as smart as you are, or do you lack compassion for people as well?

OMG. That poor cat. I'm really glad you told that kids parent what they did. I hate people who abuse animals. Those kids definitely have a screw loose. Bless you for taking care of that poor cat in the last hours of its life. It's good to know that there is still some compassion in the world.

Wow...what a horrible story. I am sorry you had to witness that and thankful you were there to take the cat in for its last hours. As a huge cat lover myself, I too crave to throw these children against a wall.
I'll be damned if my future children are ever without the knowledge of how animals deserve to be treated.

Again, this doesn't show that these kids don't feel compassion. It would take a psychological workup to determine that. And feeling compassion for animals and feeling compassion for humans are two different things.

I'm not the most compassionate person, but I have little to none for animals. I don't believe they feel pain and emotions in the same way humans do. Animals are a lower life form than humans. But much of what I've been saying here is because I seriously think that people get too worked up over animals, and are totally desensitized toward human suffering. I remember a board I used to visit would often post videos of decapitations (I remember the decapitations in Iraq being often posted), auto accidents, and other forms of human suffering. People would often make jokes about these. But they once posted a video of two guys setting a cat on fire, and most of those same people who laughed about HUMAN death were up in arms about some cat. Personally, I think people like those are much more mentally disturbed than these kids would be. And I see much the same attitude in this thread. I mean, take a look at some of these quotes:

We have numerous desires for "beatings" as well as calls for throwing children against a wall. Now THAT'S what I call disturbing behavior.

And then this beauty:

How someone who thinks children should be thrown up against a wall should be allowed to have kids themselves, or thinks they know how anything should be treated is beyond me. As was said earlier, if laughing at a cat being thrown against a wall is sign's of needing help, then wanting to seek out children and throw them against the wall is also a sign of needing help. Only I think the second is far more grave than the first.

If my kid did that, I'd make him go to the animal shelter and volunteer. Teach him a little accountability for his actions, hopefully get him on the right track.

Of course, I'd be tempted to give him a good swat to the ass at first, then have the help come after.

Bullshit. If you feel compassion for something you don't repeatedly throw it against a wall until it's fatally wounded.

Then you're uneducated. Animals have pain receptors just like we do. They have nerves just like we do. And the part of their brains that processes pain is the same as ours.

If animals can't feel pain like we do (what the hell does that mean anyway?) then why does a dog that has been beaten cringe when you raise your hand toward it? Obviously the dog finds the pain of being beaten to be unpleasant.


Ahh yes. And anything that's not on your level should be tortured and then killed. Gotcha.


Bullshit. No one's advocating torturing people. Of your four quotes from this thread only one involves torture, and it's obvious that it's a visceral reaction that the poster would never carry out.

Maybe, but that's not the TFP.

I did. I didn't see any videos of decapitation, car wrecks, or joking about the same. I saw only angry reactions because people on here feel compassion for living things that suffer. The fact that you do not is disturbing.



And again you throw up a quote in which the first half expresses a desire, not an action (I challenge you to prove that the poster would actually go through with throwing the kids up against the wall) and the second part involves teaching children not to torture animals - while you have made it patently clear that you don't think that's something children should be taught, civilized society disagrees with you.


And while we're at it, I should point out that the cat was innocent in this matter. It didn't kill the kids or their pets. The kids killed the cat. So being angry enough at the kids to express a desire to hurt them, but not actually go through with it, is much more understandable than to decide to kill a cat just for the sake of killing it.





How someone who is so out of touch with reality as to think that EVERYTHING anyone says they wish to do, they will actually do can be taken seriously is beyond me.


If the poster actually sought out children and threw them against a wall then I would agree with you. But TALKING about throwing cruel, inhumane children against a wall is MUCH more palatable to me than actually THROWING the cat against the wall.

I'd just like to add that not only do I not care about cats, I hate them. I HATE cats, I can't stand them- but to physically torture any living creature like that is fucking wrong. To be able to take a living animal and torture, maim, and hurt it intentionally is a sign of some psychological fault. There are studies on it, evaluations have been done, it's fairly well-documented. All notions of "pack mentality" aside, this is simply a fucked up thing to do to a living creature, no matter how you angle it.

I didn't say they felt compassion for the cat, I'm saying their behavior doesn't mean they lack ability to feel compassion. Two different things.

Again, I said they don't feel pain like humans. I refer you to the link I posted above so you can educate yourself.

Conditioned response. It doesn't find it "pleasant" or "unpleasant", it's wired so that it cringes from a negative, potentially harmful stimulus. They lack the capacity for suffering that humans do.

So apparently, when there's no logic in what you say, you retreat into hyperbole?


Ok, so when someone earlier says they initially laughed, but said they wouldn't in real life, you say seek help. But when someone says they want to bash kids into a wall, it's "a visceral reaction that the poster would never carry out" . Some consistency would be nice. Why couldn't laughter be "a visceral reaction that the poster would never carry out" in real life? Or is it easier to make a snap judgement based on your own personal beliefs?



But much of the reactions are similar, as pointed out in the quotes I posted.


What about compassion for children? Many people here seemed to be perfectly willing to beat and torture children for the sake of a cat. Now THAT'S disturbing behavior.

I challenge you to prove anything someone says on a message board. That's a ridiculous statement, on a message board where all you have to go by about others is what they type. You were perfectly fine with telling someone to seek help when they said they laughed, but wouldn't in real life. But when someone expresses a sick desire to abuse children, you need proof that they would carry through? And the backhanded comment about my civility (or lack thereof) was cute, but baseless. Looking at the general punishments carried out for people "torturing" animals would seem to suggest that it's not a big deal. Now however, society does place a very high value on protecting children. So maybe you should be lecturing some other people in this thread about their civility, or lack of.

How do you know the cat is innocent? What if earlier it had tried to claw one of the children? Were you there? Or is it easier to justify child abuse if you try to imagine the poor, widdle, puddy cat was just being tortured and abused endlessly for days by the mean, evil, sadistic children? And again, you keep making the assumption that these people wouldn't go through with child abuse, with no evidence to the contrary.


You seemed to have no problem doing it earlier.


Again, you mistakenly attach cruelty and inhumanity to these children. It would require a psychological workup to determine if these children really felt they were causing suffering, or were just being kids. At that age, they might not have realized it. And again, your support for child abuse is quite disgusting to me, it points to a deeply disturbed individual. I would seek professional help, or at least not be around children.

I'm not going to bother responding to all that crap you posted because this sentence proves that you're not interested in a logical debate, or in the truth. Nowhere in this thread or anywhere else on this forum have I EVER supported child abuse. The fact that you accuse me of such shows that you just make shit up when you want to win an argument. In short, this ain't worth it.

Cruelty to animals is wrong, plain and simple. I do not need to see a psych workup to know if something is cruel or not. I do not need to see a psych workup to know if someONE is being cruel. And that crap about kids not knowing that what they're doing to the cat hurts it is just that - pure and utter crap. I knew that hitting an animal causes pain long before I was 7. Your willingness to excuse inexcuseable behavior just because the wrongdoer is a child disturbs me. And the difference between what disturbs me and what disturbs you is that you actually expressed that willingness. I never expressed support for child abuse.

Ahh, the old "I can't win, so I'll claim you're making stuff up". It's especially humourous when you consider half of what you were saying was imaginary, hyperbole, insult, or just plain wrong. You were supporting people making comments about wanting to abuse children. This is not in doubt. To me, condoning other people's desire to abuse children is no different from abusing children youself.

Then, you don't understand even the smallest bit about child psychology. Remain ignorant if you like, but don't think that because you don't know something means it doesn't exist. I hope you never have children, I'm sure they would be in for a rough ride.

As someone who does understand child psychology, and has the diploma to prove it, I agree with shakran. The actions of these children, though symptomatic of larger problems, represent the roots of apathy in the childrens development. Animal abuse is linked to conduct disorder (a repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated). Among the symoptoms listed in the DSM IV for CD are "aggression to people and animals" (which includes cruelty to people or to animals).

Knee jerk replies suggesting severe physical punishment from the parents and others ironically would make the problem worse. I remain convinced that the best course of action for these kids would be to talk to a professional about what they did, without the parents in the room.

I am a cat lover, and a children lover. I did not mean I have ever ,or would ever "throw a child" against a wall. I was mearly expressing my utter disgust for these childrens actions - something very cruel. Thats why it said "I crave to"...and not I am about to go throw children against a wall. Shakran seemed to explain where I was coming from pretty well....as he obviously gets it. I am a really cool, normal human being and will someday be a great mom...so your little parenting sentiment can kiss my ass.

Being angry and wanting to return tit for tat is normal. Fantasizing about it or acting on it is not. At no point in my life have I ever hit a person younger than myself (well except maybe my brother who is two years younger :lol: ) The anger is past and now I want to try and teach these kids that what they were doing is wrong.

I think your argument regarding pain in animals is missing the point. Deriving pleasure from intentionally damaging or killing a living thing is sadistic. Building a game around killing a person or an animal fits the definition.

It's interesting to me that someone who is so willing to demonize people (like those posting here) can find these children faultless. What is your criteria for "bad" behavior.

There is no notion made that animals are saints. If we allow kids to do as they please, without having any regard for who/what they hurt, who's to say they won't take it further later in life? Today's it's a cat, tomorrow, it's the homeless guy standing at the street corner -- after all they are both, well...stray, arent they?

I am of the school of thought that what one sows, one reaps.

Torturing animals is one of the worst crimes I can think of, and the punishment goes far beyond sitting the children down and talking to them.

Traditionally, there would be a world-class beating given to the child perpetrator. We as a society (not necessarily personally) do not condone that punishment anymore. I have been on the recieving end of a few of those, and understand the point of NOT hitting children.

How can we express our collective outrage at this event? I am at a complete loss to express my sorrow, my anger, my frustration, and my fear. I am afraid that if this situation is not dealt with properly, these kids will be fucked up for the rest of their lives, and they will turn to worse crimes, involving humans...

If this were my child, I would break down. I would realize that I have failed as a parent, as a proper member of society. I would agonize about what to do.

It sure would be more than sitting little Billy down and asking him how he is feeling. I would demand restitution.

If my kid, and yes I am a parent were involved in the above cat-torture, hell I'd take your suggestions, all of them.

okay kiddies... let's be civil or it's off to your rooms with no supper

Ah, I so disagree... I think the recent (two decades or so) of child violence has increased BECUASE parents can't beat their kids anymore and school don't implement corporal punishment. Shit like this happened WAY less in the 50's and WAY less still in the 30s. Back then, if you caught your son kicking the family dairy cow, that kid was gonna get lashed until he had welts. Chances are, he's NEVER do it again. Fuck therapy. Fuck blaming parents. Fuck assuming everything is a result of the environment.

*sigh*

Sorry, this kind of thing pisses me off as much, or maybe even MORE than the OPs topic. Children need to learn right from wrong. Yes, most of the time explaining things and trying to be "mature" about it is the best approach. Sometimes a good ass kicking is what it takes. Sure, there's always been violence... but there's more of it in kids when parents can't use the time honored, thousands-year old tradition of the switch. Ever hear "Spare the rod, spoil the child?" Well, there are a lot of spoiled asshole kids out there that never learn right from wrong. Why do so many people fail to see this today?

I couldn't disagree more, espically coming from a family of therepists. Everyu day my mother (Dr. in psychology) has to deal with child abuse and the effects of child abuse on the children. There are no positives to beating a child, and there are a plethera of negatives. Let me give you an example: My grandfather beat my uncle on a regular basis both because he was beaten as a child and becuase of alcoholism. My uncle was not deterred by the violence, as it went on from the age of 5 until he left the house at 18. If your theory was correct, he would have stopped dioing whatever my grandfather thought he was doing wrong and the beatings would have stopped. My uncle is now in therepy because he has beaten his kids, my cousins. He stopped, thankfully, but it still happened. Chances are, you either don't have kids (no experience), or you're an abusive parent (you are inside of the problem and therefore do not have the perspective to see it rationally).
I can understnad that someone who advocates beating children can be made mad very easily and can become enraged at the drop of a hat. Spoiled kids are so spoiled not because they are not beaten, but because they are either punished inconsistantly, or not at all. There are many approriate punishments for kids that do not involve your fists. I hope you know that.

I don't advocate child abuse either. And your family's situations are very different than taking kids, when nothing else has worked, and say 'okay, that's it. you're getting a spanking.' No anger shown, no wild emotions, just a matter-of-fact swatting of the tush, and on with the day.

I do believe that this would help with the "spoiled rotten" kids, and the kids in this situation that were just following the leader. NOTE: I am NOT advocating hitting a child in an angry or retaliatory way. So please refrain from those responses, they're not appropriate in this case.

Haha, I'm not saying you should smack them around or beat them to a pulp... but I got spanked as a child. And I can recall specifically learning those lessons very well. My ten year old son... I've had to spank him ONCE ever in his life. He's VERY well behaved. That single time was the last time he ever "begged" me for things, and also the last time he talked back. He's not afraid of me. I didn't have to leave bruises or beat him half to death. Two good swats on the ass, in the middle of a store did him a world of good. Also, I'm amused by your background with therapists. I have a couple in my family that I find to be useless as hell. I don't have a bad temper at all. Your comment "and can become enraged at the drop of a hat"... how has it any bearing? Do I have a short temper, or does the OP, because it was enraging that kids were throwing a living animal against a wall? Oh, only because I disagree with your viewpoint is in a temperment issue. Hmmm, interesting. I wonder what your therapist parents would have to say to that.

Psychology and therapy is not really a science as much as an interpretive artistic practice. Over the course of any decade, a lot comes and goes. Sure, this is true with any science, but psychology can actually scar people. If they decide that the half life of plutonium was previously incorrect, this does not lead to problems with someone's psyche. If they determine that hey, maybe the Ferber method is bad... well, let's hope those kids aren't too screwed up. Frankly, I find psychology to be nothing more than a slightly better accepted phrenology. So using the fact that you have therapists as parents does little or nothing in my eyes to better your PoV.

Hmm, let me take some of MY examples:

* I was spanked as a child, and I'm not violent. I've been in one fight in my life, it was in high school, and I was defending myself. I must be a real bastard because my parents "hit" me. Oddly enough, from an environmental factor, both of my paretns smoked and my dad (and many on his side) were raging alcholics. I'm neither. Wow, it's CRAZY how that childhood environment so shapes our lives. It's called having a choice of how we turn out.

* I have a cousin whose mother tried discipling him repsectfully. She explained things, she was consistant, and even got him evalutaed and eventually medicated. He was STILL a total asshole for the first 20 years of his life, torturing animals of all sorts and being rather psychotic. Must've been that healthy hands-off approach.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that neither nessecarily work for EVERY kid. But a kid like that... what do you think therapy will do for him? Therapy helps less kids than one might think. However, unlike adults, kids (even disturbed ones) tend to seek approval from adults. This would include saying things that shrinks want to hear, and making it seem like progress was being made. In fact, that's exactly how I treated my psychologist that I saw after my dad died. I was pushed into it by family (I didn't WANT therapy) and so I made the best of it by "going along with the program". It's fairly typical behavior from children, as I'm sure many child development folk might concur with. It's crazy how rock solid that psychology stuff is, huh?

As a side note, I'm sorry if you got "a good ass kicking" confused with actaully bludgeoning a kid. When I hear someone say "a whalloping" "ass kicking" or other term, I tend to take it half heartedly. I doubt most people who actually beat the hell out of their kids with fists and feet would advertise as such. Maybe it's just my military background speaking. A drill sergeant might "kick our ass"... it didn't mean we bled out by the end of the day. I would NEVER hit my child with the intent to injure him. EVER! Sorry if that got misconstrued. However, I stand by my (now reworded) argument. There are also situations where the only truly appropriate punishment is a spanking.

Oh, just read the bottom of your first paragraph. I have a 10-year old son and a newborn baby son. Neither of them will EVER get actually beaten in a violent fashion. Both are apt (well, not the baby... obviously) to get a spanking if they so deserve... even my 10 year old... I'm not an abusinve parent, and I have plenty of experience thank you.

Before I start responding to yuor post, let me make clear that I was responding based on what I thought you were saying,, highlighted by this quote:
This leads me to believe that beating (being excessively violent) to kids is your answer. The word 'beating', to me, is the extreme of physical punishment. I just want to make that clear.
I believe that there is a clear difference between a controled spanking given consistantly out of love and for the childs good versus beating a child. If you did not leave bruises and it was clear to your son that you were doing it for his own good, then I simply see that as you doing what is necessary as a parent to instill good values in your son. My argument was based on my understanding that you support the beating of children and you thinking therepy is useless.

The reason that my tone and position on you specifically have changed is beacuse your position has seemingly changed. Where as in your above post you supported beating kids, you now do not support beating kids, and have cited that in your history you have only spanked your child once seemingly for good reason. I believe this repesents a falacy in your response. You made argument A. I responded to argument A. You changed your argument to argument B, and are insisting that my argument against your argument A is incorrect, trying to compare it to argument B.

I see this as an angry outburst :
After making this statement, you wrote out that you let out a sigh, as if pulling back from your aggressive statements. This was clearly an outburst founded in anger. Does it have bearing? Absolutely. The fact that you defended beating children, the attacked psychology, blaming parents, and blaming environment, and then had an outburst is quite telling.

The OP was there, in real life. He was able to take positive action. Yes, he was angry, but instead of channeling his anger into a blind attack, he used it constructively in order to attempt to make a positive change.

Incorrect. Psychology is, in fact, a science. Also, artistic practices, take musical composition for example, take advantage of theory as a guideline. Science and artistic practice are not mutually exclusive. Anything can scar someone. Biology can be used to cure or to kill, does that make it any less of a science? In fact, main stream psychology has remained more than constand for the last 20 + years.

Frankly, I help people, and my mother helps people. I am not looking for your approval.

Environmental situations, such as being abused as a child, do not always result in cd or antisocial behavior, but they CAN. There was a possibiliy that you could have grown up with cd because of your parents actions, and there was a possibility that you wouldn't. You can find similar situations in physics (another science).
Like I said above, we are dealing in possibilities. There is a possibility that some kids will develop cd for reasons outside of their parents actions, though it is much more rare. In biology, recessive genes come up, despite being more rare.
I almost certianbally have more experience with being in and learning about therepy than you, so when you make statements like "Therapy helps less kids than one might think.", what I think is this guy doesn't understand psychology or therepy at all, and is now bad mouthing something he doesn't understand. You remind me of Tom Cruise on the Today show bad mouthing psychology, saying things like "I've done the research, Matt." The reason that child psychology is more effective than you claim is because psychologiest recognise behavioral patterns, such as wanting to please adults, when treating a child patient. Believe it or not, hundreds of years of scientific development in psychology has mastered what you have figured out.
I was not given a context in which to percieve what you were saying as an exaggeration, so I took it at face value.
Again, I was basing my argument on your first post, in which you make it clear that beating kids is not only okay, but has positive results. You have represented yourself and your standpoint in two very different ways. I will choose to assume that the second post, including clairifications, is your true standpoint and an accurate representation of yourself.

Well, I appreciate your ability to overlook the exaggeration of my first post. I also never assumed you were seeking my approval, as you were quick to point out. I have several retorts to your arguments regarding psychology, but those are for another thread, another day. I think I've highjacked the OPs thread more than enough. :)

Agreed. Thanks for the discussion, though.

First off, thanks Willravel for backing me up. I knew I hadn't forgotten THAT much from my psych minor ;)


No one is disagreeing that spanking a child CAN achieve behavior modification. However, what you are failing to consider is that there could be OTHER ways that could acheive the same modification with fewer unfortunate lessons - i.e. "if someone pisses you off enough, hit them and they'll stop."

That's ridiculous. I have an engineer in my family that's an idiot too. That doesn't mean ALL engineers are useless. Let's think a little more before we denigrate an entire profession based on our relatives shall we?


Well let's see. I suppose that if we subscribe to your logic then medicine is also not a science. After all it used to be that doctors told us drinking alcohol was not good for you. Now red wine is good for your heart. I wonder how many people ended up with hearts that werent' as strong as they could have been because they avoided wine. I'm glad you mentioned plutonium. Back in the early days of nuclear research they didn't realize it was bad for you. Dick Feynman had a lump of ultra radioactive plutonium encased in gold. He used it as a doorstop. Marie Curie died from radiation poisoning from her work with radioactive materials. I suppose according to your logic that physics and geology aren't sciences either, since they once got radioactivity wrong resulting in people actually dying.



Hey wow I'm really impressed! Over 260 million people in the United States alone and you manage to produce two whole people to back up your point!

Point being, you need actual statistics, not just a couple of personal examples if you want to make this point.


I would love to see your source for that. Hint: It will be difficult to back this statement up since "less than one might think" is not a quantifiable statement.

How big of a moron do you think Willravel and other psychologists are? Do you not realize that they KNOW kids will do that, and can see through that?



I'm sorry that your utter lack of precision in your writing caused misinterpretations. But a spanking is pretty different from a "good ass kicking."

Spanking my son one time in his entire life... I guess if that was somehow an unfortunate lesson, than yes, zero would be less than one. I think you're a bit overzealous on the argument.


I'm not saying they're idiots, per se. It also was not based entirely on relatives, but also acquainances, professors and my own personal experience with psychologists and psychiatrists as well as the personal experiences of friends and family with non-familial psych-type folk.


I won't continue my argument on this point as I clearly did not put it the way I intended. I understand that no science is perfect. However, my experience with people in that profession is that there is an assumption that they are always right, and that their line of though is the best. Even within multiple "schools" of psychiatry. There are, that I'm aware of, no medical schools of thought that believe surgery is never an option, or that people with heart problems should just "bear the pain". Psychology still has a LONG way to grow before it is in the same league as other sciences. Sorry, that's an opinion, in case that wasn't clear.


I'm sorry, should I produce a small paper on this topic? I'm sure you would retort with an equal or greater number of examples which go the other way. I guess the reason for such debates is to illuminate different ideas. Something of this nature cannot realistically be proven one way or the other.



Again, I wasn't aware that one needed a source to make an argument. This isn't a statistics class. Oh, and regarding statistics, they can be made to say anything. Without a deep background understanding of the supporting data, statistics are worthless. Quantification isn't everything... An example of this is:

http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg



Again, I am not qualified to discuss the intelligence of Willravel. He seems to be a well adjusted individual that is able to have a good debate, so far as my experience in this thread is concerned. I do, however, think that many are not able to see through such a ruse. I pulled the wool over the eyes of more than one psychologist as a child. When my paretns divorced, after my dad died, during a period of depression. Realistically, psychology to some degree becomes a battle of smarts. Yes, they have training... but that training is only as good as how well they can use it.




Well, your interpretation is different than mine. If I had said blue and meant midnight blue, but you assumed baby blue... that was your interpretation... and neither of us are at any greater fault. Hence I clarified my statements. Don't be sorry... I'm not. *shrug*

BTW, does anyone here watch TV? Ever see "That 70's Show"? Red talks about putting his boot up eric's ass all the time, and I've yet to hear even the MOST left wing PC advocate say that the show advocated child abuse. I think the wording is fairly common practice.




edit for clarity?

Hahahaha!!! :lol: Awesome graph. It does tell us that there were 17 pirates as of 2000. I wonder who they were.
Well thank you. I
Well, your interpretation is different than mine. If I had said blue and meant midnight blue, but you assumed baby blue... that was your interpretation... and neither of us are at any greater fault. Hence I clarified my statements. Don't be sorry... I'm not. *shrug*

BTW, does anyone here watch TV? Ever see "That 70's Show"? Red talks about putting his boot up eric's ass all the time, and I've yet to hear even the MOST left wing PC advocate say that the show advocated child abuse. I think the wording is fairly common practice.




edit for clarity?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but if you're gonna spout claims, you need to be prepared to back them up. I can make stuff up too, but that won't help me win a debate.






Ass kicking is to spanking as a cold is to flu. They're both related, but one's a helluva lot worse than the other.


And Red is portrayed as a genuine grade-A asshole. What's your point?

Hahahaha!!! :lol: Awesome graph. It does tell us that there were 17 pirates as of 2000. I wonder who they were.
Well thank you for the compliment. I agree that you seriously underestimate therepists. It is necessary for all people recieving their ba in psychology to take child psychology, and having taken that class, as well as several other child psychology classes, I can tell you that those in the class that didn't get it would never pass the board tests. In other words, those who are trying to become therepists that have not learned something as simple as children wanting approval froma adults would almost certianally not be able to practice psychology to the public. Some of the smartest people I know had to take the certification test several times. One thing you do have to remember: a psychologist is more likely to be able to help you if you are willing to be open. As you seemingly pulled the wool over your therepists eyes (on purpous?), it made the job of the therepist all the more difficult. I know that when the person in therepy is actively working against the therepist, it at the very least pospones any kind of help that you could get. It's possible that you needed to have therepy longer, or it's possible that you have the rare gulible therepist. In all likelyness, they got tired of you bsing them (therepists are people too).
I have to say that most advocates have bigger fish to fry then Red on That 70s Show, but even if they had the time, it's nto as big of a deal because he never has actuially hit Eric (as, far as I know, I don't really watch that show). Usually his comments are less out of anger, and more with annyoance, in other words it's not a threat.

I think Red is portrayed as a fairly typical American guy. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but that is on purpose. I guess we just grew up very differently, shakran.

As for the pirates, I'd imagine that they reside somewhere in the cetral americas and/or southeast asia. In fact, wasn't there news of pirates boarding a cruise ship (seriously) not too long ago? Or trying to board. Something to that effect.

I agree, but as you said, it shows apathy as opposed to an intentional attempt to inflict suffering. And I also know that cruelty to animals is one of the hallmarks of many forms of conduct disorder, including anti-social disorder. But from what I have understood, this is more because a person has difficutly in sympathizing with others (in essence, they don't register suffering of others). But someone intentionally trying to inflict cruelty would need to register the suffering to get their enjoyment. Now, a more sadistic purpose could develop, I won't dispute that. But it's a jump at the current time, IMO.

And here I couldn't agree more. And this was largely my point: people who want to condemn children for cruelty immediately want to use cruelty themselves on those very children. And they seem to see nothing wrong with that.

Ok, I'm really baffled by the shear stupidity of the kid. Child abuse or not, the kid's fucked up in his head.

If you guys recalled, I posted something similar, except my stepbrother who's 13, was about to throw a brick onto the top of my cat. Granted, he didn't do it but I could easily tell that he stopped himself short of it and I can goddam well tell you this: I will not. fucking. hesitate. to do the same to him. Regardless of the fact that he's human and the cat is cat.

frogza, props to you for controlling your rage, if I had been in the same situation, I probably would not be able to contain my outrage to what had just happened.

The opposite of sympathy and empathy is selfishness. If one derives pleasure from hurting others (people, animals), isn't that one of the most pure forms of selfishness?
I enjoy agreeing with someone I often don't agree with. :thumbsup:
If you saw a 13 year old boy hit a cat with a brick, you'd hit the boy with the brick in turn? I really hope that you're exaggerating. Hitting any living thing with as brick, whether for punishment or to derive pleasure, is absolutely 100% wrong, not to mention illegal. If the boy would have hit the cat, that would have been animal abuse, and if the police were involved somehow they'd just drop off the kids at his parents house and tell the parents to talk to the kid. If you were to hit a 13 year old boy with a brick, that's aggravated assault - assault that involved a dangerous weapon with intent to do bodily harm (i.e., not merely to frighten), and you'd be facing possible jail time. (http://www.ussc.gov/2005guid/2a2_2.htm)

i won't get into what people do to animals, both kids and adults... it is disgusting how some people treat them, like they don't have feelings or feel pain. I think it comes from an inherent lack of compassion, lack of making the emotional connection with another creature.... sometimes it can be overcome for some kids, sometimes it cannot and they require allot of therapy.

I am TRULY glad that you were there to give this little cat some kindness and love and give it some dignity in the last hours of it's life.... i hold you in high esteem for doing that, your actions speak loudly for what a kind person you are... it warms me to know that for every cruel person, there is a person like you who knows how to show compassion and acts in kindess... :icare:

Sweetpea

It's true that animal abuse can indicate emotional problems in humans (both children and adults) but we can't jump to any conclusions about these kids. Is this the only time that these kids have done something like this? If it is, then we probably don't have anything to worry about. Especially since at least one of the children has shown remorse.

Is the bahaviour reprehensible? Yes. Does it make it any less reprehensible because it was a cat? No. The children were behaving like a lot of children do ... "let's see what happens if ..."

They made a very poor choice and a living creature suffered for it. Are they "little monsters?" Probably not ... although not knowing their background we can't say for certain.

Is the behaviour "normal?" Again, if it's an isolated incident then I'm content to say yes. Kids ARE mean ... I have a four year old daughter. She's the sweetest girl you'll ever meet. However, I've seen her pinch our dogs ears until the dog starts to whine. I tell her that it, "hurts [the dogs] feelings and to stop." My daughter apologized to the dog and has never done it again. I've swatted her butt a couple of times ... nothing major. Just a reaction on my part to the increasing battle of the wills. She responds better to, "You've hurt my feelings."

Why did she do it? She's a kid. Is it reprehensible? Yes. Not as bad as torturing a cat to death ... but the indications are the same. She just wanted to see what would happen.

Teaching empathy is much more effective then physical punishment. You know, "how would you feel if ..."

Compassion and empathy are both learned traits. A 7 year old boy is probably a little young to expect much in the way of real compassion or empathy. Girls probably start a little earlier. You can see it in toddlers but it's sort of play-acting for them. Parents do have a responsibility to foster compassion and empathy in their kids ... hell, I'd go so far as saying all adults have this responsibility -- but I know that's not very realistic.

Physical punishment does not have to be brutal ... nor does it have to be degrading (although no matter how tempered a smack in the butt, it's always a little degrading).

<b>Frogza:</b> What can you tell us about the kids now that it's been a couple of days?