i dont want to be that jerk but....

[pattycakes]

I think that every one stuck in their attics deserve to be left there so they learn a lesson, that when told to evacuate they should.

NOW we have to spend even more money to rescue their sorry asses. Now if they wernt warned and told to evacuate, i wouldnt care, but they dont listen and then they think that they deserve to be rescued.

if they want to be rescued, they should have to pay the rescue bill.

end of my rant anyone elses opinions ?

now im not this huge jerk who thinks my wy is the only way, but why should you and i have to foot the bill for these people who dont listen. i cant feel bad for these people who died that stayed when they were told to leave. plus everyone knows its below sea level so wf did they expect

[Daknjak]

I am going to have to agree. I am all for saving those who are caught off guard, and didn't see it coming, but if your told to leave, you have plenty of time, then leave. In a flood there is nothing you can do to save your possessions unless you pack them and LEAVE. The same goes for any idiot who tries to climb a mountain and gets stuck, and has to be rescued and often times puts the lives of the rescuers in danger as well.

I saw some of the footage and those houses are completely covered up to the tops of the roof. Even if your saved, where do you go with water that high?

[BigBen]

I do know from experience that if you choose to travel on roads that are closed by the proper authorities in Canada, your car and personal liability insurance is null and void. People constantly drive on roads when closed due to bad weather (Canada, come on, the blizzards are crazy here sometimes) holding onto excuses like 'I have to get to work' or 'my _______ is expecting me home' but what they don't realize is that they are taking their lives and gambling with them...

If I have to rescue someone AFTER they have been given the lawful order to evacuate, be damn sure that I want some money for my troubles. Having said that, I AM willing to go into the pits of hell and rescue some dumbass that didn't get it the first 10 times he was warned. It makes me feel good, knowing that I saved someone's life, even if they foolishly put it at risk.

I get to look in the mirror and say "Without you, that guy would have died..."

[ShaniFaye]

I agree to a certain extent...lets just remember there are cases where people just cant leave. That said....I also have little sympathy for people that buy houses in areas prone to hurricanes or tropical storms that do a lot of damage.

Hell we are in NORTH GEORGIA and it has gotten to were ever time there is a hurricane we have to worry about tornados and flooding...I had to listen to tornado sirens for an hour last nite....and worry that I was going to have to play dorothy to my cats role as toto....stuipid hurricanes (sorry I know that has nothing to do with the topic at hand but I just thought I'd throw it in)

[Vincentt]

But if you don't stay around you miss out on all the good looting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083000848.html

[*Nikki*]

It seems that some people actually stayed around to loot!!

[pattycakes]

correct me if im wrong but this one instance everyone had a chance to leave?

[ShaniFaye]

having the chance to leave, and having the ability to leave are two different things

[Charlatan]

I'm mixed on the whole thing...

My favourite story though was of the guy who used a shotgun to blast a hole in his roof so he could get out of his attic... That's just so American.

[shakran]

Before we get on our collective high horse and sit here in our safe, warm, dry houses condemning those who have just lost every possession they own, let's sit down and think for a moment shall we?

New Orleans has a LOT of poverty. Many in that town do not have a car. Or if they do have one they cannot afford to fuel it or to fix it. Assuming they found a magic carpet to get them out of town, they cannot afford to pay for a motel, or for meals in restaurants since they won't have a kitchen. In short, they do not have the ability to leave.

And even those that do have the ability have to weigh their options. Do I leave so I don't possibly wind up on a roof waiting for a chopper, or do I stay so I can try and protect my house and all that I own from the inevitable looters?

I can see being pissed at the idiots who were surfing in the waves kicked up by the hurricane, but to be pissed at people for not taking options that are not available to them is ludicrous.

[The_wall]

I'm with Shakran on this one, couldn't have worded it better myself. Let's remember these are humans we are talking about, who cares how much has to be spent to save lives.

[Kalnaur]

Originally Posted by The_wall

I'm with Shakran on this one, couldn't have worded it better myself. Let's remember these are humans we are talking about, who cares how much has to be spent to save lives.

If it's more than one human life spent to save a human life, then it's too much.

Personally, I would have asked myself why the hell it was so quite around there . . . . .

[shakran]

Originally Posted by Kalnaur

If it's more than one human life spent to save a human life, then it's too much.

Personally, I would have asked myself why the hell it was so quite around there . . . . .

The guys pulling people off their roof aren't dying. What are you talking about?

[analog]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I'm mixed on the whole thing...

My favourite story though was of the guy who used a shotgun to blast a hole in his roof so he could get out of his attic... That's just so American.

What's so American? Fighting for survival? I agree, it's an admirable trait.

[meembo]

Originally Posted by shakran

Before we get on our collective high horse and sit here in our safe, warm, dry houses condemning those who have just lost every possession they own, let's sit down and think for a moment shall we?

New Orleans has a LOT of poverty. Many in that town do not have a car. Or if they do have one they cannot afford to fuel it or to fix it. Assuming they found a magic carpet to get them out of town, they cannot afford to pay for a motel, or for meals in restaurants since they won't have a kitchen. In short, they do not have the ability to leave.

And even those that do have the ability have to weigh their options. Do I leave so I don't possibly wind up on a roof waiting for a chopper, or do I stay so I can try and protect my house and all that I own from the inevitable looters?

I can see being pissed at the idiots who were surfing in the waves kicked up by the hurricane, but to be pissed at people for not taking options that are not available to them is ludicrous.

Well said.

[barenakedladies]

i agree with you.,

harsh,,, but i agree..

darwinism baby

ween out the stupid

[Psycho Dad]

Originally Posted by shakran

And even those that do have the ability have to weigh their options. Do I leave so I don't possibly wind up on a roof waiting for a chopper, or do I stay so I can try and protect my house and all that I own from the inevitable looters?

That is what I would likely wrestle with. In the end though I suspect I would go. Not much point in risking my life for an underwater house.

[pattycakes]

protect myself from looters is really silly. What would be the point? if it missed everyone would be back, 12 foot of water who cares is they take my eletronics. take yoru damn jewerly with you. looters are going after busnesses not individual houses.

even if you stayed there and your house was the only house that wasnt hit you wouldebt be able to protect against "looters" 1 of you or 2 or more with kids versus 10 15 who would win

*stays on high horse*

[shakran]

Originally Posted by pattycakes

*stays on high horse*

You addressed one point (and the smallest one might I add) in my post. Your perch on your high horse is rather tenuous at best.

[mirevolver]

Arizona has an interesting law that is along the lins of pattycakes' thinking. It doesn't apply to people who stay behind after an evacuation, but rather to drivers.

It's called the "Stupid Motorists Law." The way it works is if the athourities determine it necessary to close a road (most often here it's because a section is underwater from a flash flood), and the motorist ignores the warning and then later is stranded and needs rescue, the stranded motorist must pay for the rescue.

I personally like the law in regards to motorists, if you see a blockade and a sign that says, "Road flooded, do not enter," and then drive around the blockade and get stranded in the flooded road, then it's your own damn fault that you need to be rescued, the taxpayers shouldn't be forced to fund your rescue.

But in the case of staying at home after an evacuation, there would need to be more to a law like that. There would need to be a clause along the lines of, if you do not evacuate or are unable to evacuate and you decline an offer from the state or government to help you relocate, then and only then would you be required to fund your own rescue.

[God of Thunder]

I agree with the fact that some people couldn't leave. I think the point here is the idiots who CHOOSE to stay. They are usally the first to bitch that no one came to save their sorry ass. The people who couldn't leave are usually grateful for whatever help they get.

Up here in Michigan (and I'm sure in other places where ice fishing is possible) Darwin nominees constantly have to be rescued from the ice despite repeated warnings of thin ice. They must think "those warnings are for inexperienced fishermen"

A few years ago the state passed a law that anyone who had to be rescued after the warnings were issued would get charged for the rescue. And it still happens several times a year.

[pattycakes]

Originally Posted by shakran

Before we get on our collective high horse and sit here in our safe, warm, dry houses condemning those who have just lost every possession they own, let's sit down and think for a moment shall we?

New Orleans has a LOT of poverty. Many in that town do not have a car. Or if they do have one they cannot afford to fuel it or to fix it. Assuming they found a magic carpet to get them out of town, they cannot afford to pay for a motel, or for meals in restaurants since they won't have a kitchen. In short, they do not have the ability to leave.

And even those that do have the ability have to weigh their options. Do I leave so I don't possibly wind up on a roof waiting for a chopper, or do I stay so I can try and protect my house and all that I own from the inevitable looters?

I can see being pissed at the idiots who were surfing in the waves kicked up by the hurricane, but to be pissed at people for not taking options that are not available to them is ludicrous.

1. they could be safe in a warm dry hotel
2. their personal kitchen will be under water so no go
3.If transportation is an issue there should be a law that during an evacuation public transportation MUST provide free rides.
( i think i read somewhere abour transportation but i cant find it right now )

If no transportation would be provided at all then yes those ppl should be rescued,

BUT if they just chose to stay... F-EM

[pattycakes]

link

Improved evacuation of low-mobility groups Transportation infrastructure in the U.S. has developed to serve vehicular traffic. While reliance on personal transportation works reasonably well under routine conditions, it can cause significant challenges for emergency management officials. The number of people without access to transportation in New Orleans has been estimated as high as 25-30% of the population and includes over a quarter million people. In addition to people without vehicles, potential evacuees can include the indigent, elderly, prisoners, the infirm and tourists. Evacuation of these low-mobility and special needs groups is an area that, while included in most state emergency operation plans, has been largely unaddressed by DOTs. Busing has been the most common mode of transportation for low-mobility groups, and in the past emergency management agencies have contracted with local transit authorities, school districts and tour operators with varying levels of success. However, many heavily populated cities do not have a sufficient supply of buses to move all low-mobility evacuees. The total number of buses in all of New Orleans would provide only a fraction of the capacity needed to transport all of these people. To counter this problem, Louisiana emergency management officials are working through local churches to encourage “good neighbor” strategies in which neighbors with means of transportation would assist those without during an evacuation.

this is all i could find, but it appears that they have \ had \ should have had this plan in affect

similar link

there was also 10 last resort shelters
link

[shakran]

Originally Posted by pattycakes

1. they could be safe in a warm dry hotel

Paid for how?

2. their personal kitchen will be under water so no go

They didn't know that - remember, the flooding is somewhat of a surprise and only happened because the levees failed.

3.If transportation is an issue there should be a law that during an evacuation public transportation MUST provide free rides.

Hey, I agree, but if there isn't one, or if the public transportation system can't handle anywhere close to the number of people it would need to in order to get them out, then we shouldn't be too angry at those who can't leave, now should we?



It's amazing to me that the group that is most villified here are the victims. What the hell is wrong with a society which expresses more indignation over this group than over the looters and price gougers?

[pattycakes]

i believe that they sit 7 feet below sea level so it should be assumed that with a cat 5 there will be flooding, i rember hearing the worst case on the news. maybe it was to late for them to hear it, but we dont know because we wernt there

i dont like the looters, but oh well nothing we can do is there? nothing that the coast guard wants to do or the officers

[pattycakes]

then we shouldn't be too angry at those who can't leave, now should we?

Im not mad at those that " had to stay" just pissed at those who chose then act like we owe them to save em

[Kalnaur]

How could you not leave? What's so hard about running for your life?

[ratbastid]

Look, people have bad judgement sometimes. Doesn't mean I want them to drown in their attics. The penalty seems a little out of line with the crime, if you ask me.

[aberkok]

I can't claim to fully understand the motives of those who stayed behind. My guess is that poverty had a lot to do with it, as has been mentioned above. People just don't have the means to sustain themselves outside of their homes. There's also the surprise factor. After all, how much do you guys trust weathermen.

For me, I realize that I'm in a completely different social class. I don't have 2 jobs just to make ends meet, and being for the most part a white 26 year old male, haven't been in too many situations where the system has failed me. I have time to sit here pondering the issues and to post my thoughts on the internet. I think that goes for more than a few of us here. Therefore I can't fully understand the motives behind staying behind, but I would err on the side of "they've got good reasons even though I can't empirically understand what they are."

Could it be that the offer of rescue is received with mistrust? Also, for the poor, the question of whether to stay and defend your property, no matter how waterlogged it might be, is a more important and relevant one than many of us here make it out to be.

In short, things aren't as simple as they seem, and there are more important things to do than lay blame on those who made the potentially wrong choice of staying behind.

[Bagezio2]

Originally Posted by aberkok

I can't claim to fully understand the motives of those who stayed behind. My guess is that poverty had a lot to do with it, as has been mentioned above. People just don't have the means to sustain themselves outside of their homes. There's also the surprise factor. After all, how much do you guys trust weathermen.

well when their radar and satellites show a category 5 hurricaine, and they tell me its headed right for my town, I would think that they know what they are talking about....

[Arroe]

i'm sure anyone would have the means to go to one of the shelters set up around the city... walk a few blocks to the damn super dome if you have to. it's sad that people are dying for their stupid mistakes.

[aberkok]

Originally Posted by Bagezio2

well when their radar and satellites show a category 5 hurricaine, and they tell me its headed right for my town, I would think that they know what they are talking about....

Yes, you are right Bagezio2. I was, however, joking!

[ratbastid]

Two things to add to this thread:

First: George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

Second: This was posted on boingboing.net this morning, from an email attributed to a NOLA rescue worker:

<blockquote>The poorest 20% (you can argue with the number -- 10%? 18%? no one knows) of the city was left behind to drown. This was the plan. Forget the sanctimonious bullshit about the bullheaded people who wouldn't leave. The evacuation plan was strictly laissez-faire. It depended on privately owned vehicles, and on having ready cash to fund an evacuation. The planners knew full well that the poor, who in new orleans are overwhelmingly black, wouldn't be able to get out. The resources -- meaning, the political will -- weren't there to get them out.

White per capita income in Orleans parish, 2000 census: $31,971. Black per capita: $11,332. Median *household* income in B.W. Cooper (Calliope) Housing Projects, 2000: $13,263. </blockquote>

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

C'mon rat...cut the guy some slack, wouldja? He is, afterall, still on vacation...not?

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by analog

What's so American? Fighting for survival? I agree, it's an admirable trait.

Relax... don't get your stars and stripes in a bunch.

Have you never seen a Hollywood film? The hero, when trapped in an attic with rapidly rising water will always blast his way out onto the roof.

It is an American stereotype. The hero and his big gun.


Had he used an axe it wouldn't have been as funny...

[Troublebot]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Two things to add to this thread:

First: George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

Second: This was posted on boingboing.net this morning, from an email attributed to a NOLA rescue worker:

<blockquote>The poorest 20% (you can argue with the number -- 10%? 18%? no one knows) of the city was left behind to drown. This was the plan. Forget the sanctimonious bullshit about the bullheaded people who wouldn't leave. The evacuation plan was strictly laissez-faire. It depended on privately owned vehicles, and on having ready cash to fund an evacuation. The planners knew full well that the poor, who in new orleans are overwhelmingly black, wouldn't be able to get out. The resources -- meaning, the political will -- weren't there to get them out.

White per capita income in Orleans parish, 2000 census: $31,971. Black per capita: $11,332. Median *household* income in B.W. Cooper (Calliope) Housing Projects, 2000: $13,263. </blockquote>

Rat, it has struck me that in alot of the pictures and video I've seen, the people being rescued and fleeing the area are black. I'm not one to believe in conspiracies, but dang.

[Giant Hamburger]

It is in situations like these were you can learn a lot about your fellow man.
Who acts with intelligence and who with ignorance and foolishness.
Who shows themselves to be caring and who greedy and selfish.
It's also good for pointing out the jerks.

[BigBen]

I dunno rat, I think you are stretching a bit with the whole "Racist hurricane / hurricane planning" thing.

Okay, the poor are left to fend for themselves. That sucks.
The rich have not made arrangements to protect their fellow man. That sucks.
The government has not planned for evacuating the poor. That is stupid.

To say that it is a black/white thing? No, I am not going to follow you down that road.
How about we look at the voter turnout in those areas? Maybe the government is ignoring those that ignore them...

[stevo]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Two things to add to this thread:

First: George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

Second: This was posted on boingboing.net this morning, from an email attributed to a NOLA rescue worker:

<blockquote>The poorest 20% (you can argue with the number -- 10%? 18%? no one knows) of the city was left behind to drown. This was the plan. Forget the sanctimonious bullshit about the bullheaded people who wouldn't leave. The evacuation plan was strictly laissez-faire. It depended on privately owned vehicles, and on having ready cash to fund an evacuation. The planners knew full well that the poor, who in new orleans are overwhelmingly black, wouldn't be able to get out. The resources -- meaning, the political will -- weren't there to get them out.

White per capita income in Orleans parish, 2000 census: $31,971. Black per capita: $11,332. Median *household* income in B.W. Cooper (Calliope) Housing Projects, 2000: $13,263. </blockquote>

Hate to burst your bubble here, but 70% of NO's population is african american, so yes, the majority of the poor are black.

Originally Posted by pattycakes

I think that every one stuck in their attics deserve to be left there so they learn a lesson, that when told to evacuate they should.

NOW we have to spend even more money to rescue their sorry asses. Now if they wernt warned and told to evacuate, i wouldnt care, but they dont listen and then they think that they deserve to be rescued.

if they want to be rescued, they should have to pay the rescue bill.

end of my rant anyone elses opinions ?

now im not this huge jerk who thinks my wy is the only way, but why should you and i have to foot the bill for these people who dont listen. i cant feel bad for these people who died that stayed when they were told to leave. plus everyone knows its below sea level so wf did they expect

And I, for one, am disgusted at the level of inconsiderate, childish ranting on this board about how it is people's own falut.

People did evacuate to high-rise hotels, they still died.

There was only a 18-36hr evacuation notice. I was in the area last weekend before the storm hit. The highways were parking lots when I was trying to get home. Some people decided to stay that could have left, but many people couldn't evacuate, had no means to evacuate, or had special needs that prevented them from evacuating.

Some folks were miles inland (read: above sea level), yet the water still killed them. A 30ft storm surge will cover miles of land.

And yes, we do owe it to those people stuck in their attics and on their roofs to save them. They are humans, like you, like me.

Is this what it is about to you? money? you make me sick to my stomach.

The dead have not even begun to be counted and the toll is at 100. Don't be suprised if it passes 1,000.

This storm touched many more than you will know. Left thousands familyless and more than a million homeless. You have no consideration what so ever.

This is a disaster of proportions this country has never experienced. We should be coming together with our prayers and thoughts and doing whatever we can to help those poor, unfortunate souls. and all you can think about is how they deserve to die.

excuse me while I throw up.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Relax... don't get your stars and stripes in a bunch.

Have you never seen a Hollywood film? The hero, when trapped in an attic with rapidly rising water will always blast his way out onto the roof.

It is an American stereotype. The hero and his big gun.


Had he used an axe it wouldn't have been as funny...

maybe he doesn't own an ax. Did the shotgun save his life? ok, he made the right decision. I know in canada, lots of people have axes, they have fireplaces and need to split wood. he might not own an ax. I'm sure he didn't take the shotgun for the cool factor. He took it because it's a life saving tool.