Asian Americans: Math Genes or Better Students?
 

While I can't say his generalization is true since I know many asians that do have a hard time with studies, and many that don't have the drive or desire to push themselves on their own or from their parents.

While I'm trying hard to not further stereotype, it's those that are easily influenced and focused on current trends and fashions, it was true when I was growing up and I see it in todays asian american youth as well.

And quite honestly, I sucked at math. I even failed pre-calc for most my senior year, and passed it barely but failed physics instead.

Why do Jews seem to do better in school?

Why do so many children of recent immigrants?

I think its because their parents push and encourage them. I see dozens of kids of school age a day as patients and the only ones that talk about their grades/tests tend to be Asian/Indian. I see a lot more concern about sports in my white/black parents then I do in other groups, being 'popular' seems pretty high up there too. So while I am not 100% convinced that genetics may not play a role, much of it is on the upbringing.

Edit:One thing I've seen too, is the longer they have been in the country the less well Asians seem to do in school (this is from remembering my friends while in school). Being 'more American' isn't always a good thing.

When I returned to University, I had been away from academics for 5 years. I was gathering "Valuable Life Experience" instead...

I got 63% in Calculus in grade 12, but I think that was because I was infatuated with girls, and not first derivatives. It was by far my lowest mark, and it did not count towards my university entrance average. I took it as it was: no big deal.

1st year University came around, and studying economics and anything "On the Margin" requires a healthy dose of Calculus. I was counting myself fortunate that I didn't have to wrote a thousand essays like those poor SOB's in History or English.

The Professor entered the lecture theatre (seats about 200 students) and anounced in a very heavy asian Accent: "Today, we review High School Math..." and with that, he turned and faced the board, and started writing formulae. I was shit scared, and frantically wrote down everything he put on the board. Everything. My hand was cramping at the end of the lecture!

I couldn't understand the words coming from his mouth. I went up to him after class (I was keen. Mommy and Daddy were not paying my way. I was 'financially motivated') and asked a question about one of the fomulas. His response?

"I don't speak English." and he walked out. I was OUTRAGED! How can someone secure tenure at an institution in North America if they do not communicate in the fucking native language?

I went to the department head of Mathematics and Statistics to complain. He was a good Scotsman, and would surely sympathize. He would be as shocked as I was! He was not only harsh, but taught me a good lesson on university.

"Son, I want you to go to the library and search this professors name. If at that point you want to change classes, I will arrange it. You should feel privledged that you are in his class. I think 30 years from now, you will brag to your colleagues that you attended one of his classes..."

Before I left the office (with my tail between my legs) the Department Head quipped "You don't need to speak to understand math. Read the text, then read his notes, then do the homework."

I researched the prof. I was shocked to see that he was quite published, in journals that were written in english, french, Chinese, Italian. This guy was a fucking genius.

I studied. 3 hours a day on math alone. I completed every question in the damn textbook. I attended every class. At the end of the semester, I was one of 24 students left in the class. We took up 1 row in the lecture theatre. The first row.

My mark? a 74. A well earned 74. I am more proud of that mark than any of the "100% Good Job!" bullshit cop-out marks in other classes.

And I love Math to this day.

I promise here and now: I will instill a respect for academics into my children. I will require hard work, and demand good results.

Ben, are you Asian?

Just kidding, good post, nicely written. It's like a script or short story. Nice job.

The article supports the idea that Asians in the US are better in math because of cultural reasons well, but it does nothing to disprove that genes are not a factor, other than saying "they just aren't". While I'm sure culture is an important factor, it seems wrong to simply discount the influence of genes in intelligence when they are a scientifically-proven factor in so many other traits - baldness, mental illness, heart disease, etc. There are also many traits that are found in specific ethnic/racial groups (which I believe is not the same as "race" alone, because of the fuzzy boundaries that it implies) much more commonly than in the general population - sickle-cell anemia in blacks and Tay-Sachs disease in Jews from Eastern/Central Europe, among others. I don't see why intelligence is automatically different. It should be studied more, and not just dismissed so we can all feel good about ourselves. Granted, it's a lot harder to measure than simply looking at the shapes of one's bloodcells, as in anemia, but if a common standard is used, the results will have some validity.

When PC and science colide. The concept of being 'superior' by birth was torpedoed by the backlash to the Nazi's and then utterly sunk by such works as 'The Bell Curve'. Because of the racial undertones we are not allowed to even LOOK at such factors as race unless it involves a disease of some kind. You may see 'good genes' but you are not allowed to comment on them, and must credit only development lest you be labeled a racist, etc.

The effects of genes on development are hugely diverse, and math equally so, that it would be foolish to suggest that gene X made you a better mathematician. It's not PC, to have a fixation with race, but it is scientifically flawed. It would be akin to saying that computers that used a certain brand of wire were better at running Halflife, or that items with a W in their names were naturally better at floating.

A scientist who suggests race being a single factor in a person's intelligence or proficiency at mathematics, art, singing or kung fu is either not looking properly at their results, or they are ignoring cultural, developmental, personal, educational and a multitude of other factors at their peril.

Bingo!

All, and I mean ALL of my friends, including myself who had asian/immigrant parents went to either Math tutorial or ESL classes, not just during school, but on the weekends.

I spent every Saturday morning at the Kumon centre for years. And this is during public school. As far as I know, our parents understood that the route to a respectable (interpret as high paying/professional and therefore self-sufficient) job or career was never, ever limited by having ability in mathematics.


I started Kumon in grade 3 and kept going to Grade 10. By that time, math was such an automatic thing for me, it was only through diligence that I could lower my mark (missing tests etc).


As my parents stated it, the funnel of opportunity is widest when you have all your maths and sciences, as well as your musics and languages. And you don't necessarily have to be super intelligent to do well, just disciplined and get the work done.


note: just to add a post script, being a girl, growing up in downtown Toronto, with very conservative parents, I was not allowed to go out. At All. If i wasn't involved in a school activity I was expected to be at home, either doing homework or helping with dinner etc. In the summer I was not allowed out either. the only time I could get to be doing my thing was if i was in a school club. which would explain why I joined the string orchestra. Others were in the same boat, and joined school clubs that they could get into (maybe explaining the math club memberships) based on their capabilities. the 'chinese sixpack' as they called it in Grade 13 was good for something (algebra, functions&relations, calculus, Biology, physics, chemistry)...

I remember reading a while back in a consumer behaviour book, that this question already has an answer.

So there was this study, i forget where it was taken place but nontheless it did take place and with was with students studying maths. Now the experiment continued for the duration of one yeah, where each class was equally weighted with Asian Males. Asian Males were always stereotyped as being good at maths. Now one class was constantly reminded of this stereotype, the teacher would always repeat and reenforce this idea that the Asian Males would find it easy, or for you guys especially that was probably very easy...blar blar. Contently feeding them the image that they were of a particular cultural and ethnic background this would help them.

The other class with the same number of Asian Males were never alerted to this stereotype and it was never mentioned in the class. So everyone just worked as normal and no one was getting any particular praise.

The result of this (and this shows you how powerful marketing/conditioning is) was that the control group was found to have a normal distribution of results with no particular class, gender, ethnicity, culture and the rest of it doing anything significantly better than anyone else. Whereas the Asian Males in the other class did significantly better than their Asian counterparts in the other class and were all top of the class.

So we can conclude from that, that it is not genes. It is more a case of what is expected of you and what people around will say you will be able to do, if you hear it enough you believe it and in the case of maths if you believe you can do it, then chances are you'll work at it till your belief is fulfilled.

If it is proven to be genetic thing... fine... in fact, excellent. That said, to speculate upon genetics without some sort of proof is treading on dangerous ground, a la The Nazis and all the superior race inherent in it.

I'm not saying it is wrong to speculate only that it is dangerous ground and one *should* tread carefully.

<- Worked in a genetics lab for 2 years.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. I think development has a GREATER factor than any genetic ones at present, but it would be foolish to assume that while we have genes that make you sick, or make you tall, or make you bald, we don't have genes that make math easier. Phenotype due to genotype with intelligence is very hard to measure and right now its not PC to do so, but would it be shocking to learn that there are differences? Do you think people like DaVinci just worked hard and had good learning enviroments?

Tallness is a direct function of body development, that's what genes do. Baldness likewise. Yes there are some genetic defects such as Downs' Syndrome that effect mental development. But races are hugely diverse populations - some chinese people are taller than some black people, some white people can jump etc

My point is that the link between race and genetics isn't even closely defined yet. Yes, you can trace your maternal line down your mitochondrial line genetically, and yes you might be able to make some geographical analysis of where a particular gene in your body is most likely to originate, but the fact remains that races are populations of individuals, and are vastly diverse within those populations.

There may be a gene (or more likely a multitude of genes coupled with environmental factors) that makes you smart, but it wont be racially exclusive.

The thing is, you can look at a particular aspect of mathematics in so many ways, that one mode of thinking that might be gene related (and that's still a big if) is no better than another, entirely different one. What I mean to say is that even if the brain works differently for different races, then you still can't make the judgement that one is better than the other, but you can suggest different ways of teaching the same things.

Then there's the link between autism and mathematics - whether autism is genetic or not I don't know, but it is commonly seen as an inability to cope with or appropriately categorise large amounts of information. The reason mathematics is supposed to express itself with these people is that they find comfort within its safe, predictable logical structures. Does that mean that math is being expressed by <i>less</i> or more capable brains? And are there more autistic people of one race or another? If there are is this likely to be genetic, or environmental? And you come back round to the original point that races are populations of individuals with a wide range of genotypes, and an exponentially larger range of phenotypes - this is why it doesn't make sense to make racial projections.

Trying to negate a group difference by stating individual exceptions is very poor logic indeed.

"There may be a gene (or more likely a multitude of genes coupled with environmental factors) that makes you smart, but it wont be racially exclusive."

Intellegence is not decided by enviroment, knowledge is. There have been multiple tests created to test intellegence cross culturally so as not to involve possible enviromental effects into the equation.

"What I mean to say is that even if the brain works differently for different races, then you still can't make the judgement that one is better than the other, but you can suggest different ways of teaching the same things."

I would say that if you take a large enough number of people from each race and give them the same problems with the same educational experience across the board you would be able to judge such a thing quite easily.

All in all, any scientist who would like any future funding at all stays away from any possible testing or proving of anything besides the thinking that we are all exactly the same but look different. Though, lets not talk about the fact that our skeleton structures, brain size, cranial structure, musculature, hormonal levels and even longevity are quite easy to see are different. Why in the world would everyone want to be the same anyway?

Zen_tom all genes either go to fixation or extinction. Its how the math works, and on the way they will be expressed differently in a population. It is quite possible that in the Asian population there would be a greater concentration of the 'math' gene or genes. This would not mean that every Asian was good at math, but it would mean that a higher % of the population would be. I am not saying this is even true but it is possible and feasable that such differences exsist.

OK, let me try another tack. A gene might alter a particular characteristic, like height, eye colour, nose-size etc - and all of these things are intrinsically measurable. If you are 5'9" in your socks at age 25, then that's that - you are taller than someone who is 5'7" in their socks - no argument.

How though do you test someone's affinity for trigonometric problems, matrix theory, plain old algebra, calculus, topological geometry, set theory and all the myraid of other, all entirely different branches of mathematics against someone else's?

How do you choose whether one dancer, musician or artist is better than another one when there are so many different branches of dance or music, or art around?

And even if you could, how are you going to even begin to isolate which racially prominent genes are supposedly responsible in combination with which other racially prominent genes, when all the environmental factors get in the way. And even if you manage all that, at the end of it all, what usefull information will you have uncovered?

Yes genes are fixated or become extinct, however, this happens entirely at random, and in combination with nearby or otherwise associated sets of genes. There is a lot of redundant genetic code that we drag along that has remained fixated for millions of years that appears to have absolutely no 'use' whatsoever, except to absorb mutaions and defects without spoiling the important parts that are expressed.

True, a population is likely to have a closer clustering of similar gene combinations, but the rings or boundaries you draw to delineate them are entirely arbitrary. Not that that matters.

My final point is to repeat that math involves such a complex web of behaviours, conceptions, motivations and methodologies, that aproaches to it are as individual as there are people. Some people may have especially clear conceptions of mathematics, but they will all conceptualise things in their own way. That and extreme variations within populations vary so much more than they do between populations, that I can't imagine a statistically reliable, racio-genetic linkage could be proven except by someone with an axe to grind.

It's not PC, it's sensible, practical science.

We are in basic agreement but your primary argument seems to be that its hard to measure intelligence unlike height.

While thats true, it does nothing to change the possibility of there being genetic differences, nor the likelyhood that their will be clusters in familes/populations.

I would be very surprised if there weren't such differences.

This makes more sense. No doubt there are some genes that are "coded for math proficiency", but I do not think it is "race" based. For example, Mozart, Einstein, Hawking, Nash etc are probably "genetically" predisposed for more math proficiency. No amount of training and discipline for me (average genetics) could render me "equal" with those guys at math. But I bet I could kick both their asses at basketball (just kidding...sort of).

Personally, I think "race" is crock-science.

I think you can insofar as current testing measures are devised. Think prodigies and special schools. They are tested for their aptitude and proficincies and placed in special classes.

In short, this subject is complex with a myriad of factors: culture, genetics, migration patterns, emotional development, etc...

It is lazy and idiotic to attribute to something as outdated and scientifically false as "race".

I guess I'm a rare case. I'm Chinese and really suck at math (That's why i went to art school heh). I did poorly in grade school, got crappy SAT scores, but somehow got into into good colleges. I didn't want to be a doctor, programmer, or pharmacist. I'm good with computers and design though. Maybe those was genetically coded in my genes. :thumbsup:

Mozart was a mathematician?

What does "scientifically false" mean? I'm caucasian, and I really doubt you could find anybody who would confuse me or anybody else in my family for another race. The same can be said for most people. There are clearly different sets of inherited traits which we can (reliably) use to categorize people into one race or another. Why is it so hard to believe that these (physical) traits don't go together with certain mental ones (on average)?

I'm certainly not saying that mental differences are entirely due to race. I think (at least in this case) that most of it is cultural, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that certain mental characteristics are correlated to race.

Well perhaps race is best defined as a cluster of certain genes which lead to a phenotype which is easily identified.

Races are due to a cluster of these genes, which moved to fixation in a small population.

In a way, yes I suppose (maybe not literally). There is a very strong correlation between math and music. Mozart's music is often referred to as being "mathmatically perfect". Some people consider a piano to be an adding machine. Pretty neat huh?

Alot of the child prodigies with a proficiency for math are also excellent in music. It's not a 1:1 ratio, it's just a correlation. I can't quantify it (maybe someone else can).

I guess it's the way they are wired.

Although I'm not sure it goes the other way. I've never heard of Einstein writing no symphonies or playing piano (then agian, he was a physicist, not a mathematician).

That is a good question. No doubt there are variable degree of "traits" one can ascribe to the HUMAN RACE. (i.e. - a spectrum of skin pigmentation). When I say "scientifically false", I mean race is a social construct as opposed to anything scientifically meaningful.

You mention yourself to be caucasian. What does that mean? From the Caucasus region? Are you Russian? Georgian? Ukranian? (which are nationalities, not races). Or are you white? Are Irish folk caucasian too? They say Indians (from India) are Aryan. If Germans are Aryan (white), does that make them Caucasian too? If so, are Indians Caucasian?

There really isn't any scientific basis for "race". We are all variations (that is, insignificant phenotypes) of one human race.

In regards to your second part, I've never heard of nor read of any correlation between physical traits and mental. Does that implie (and correct me if I did not understand your post) for example, the lighter the skin, the smarter the person? Or how about the slantier the eyes (physical trait) the better at math (mental trait)?

I understand what you are saying about inherited traits (skin color, etc) but how does that make one better at math than another?

If it was that easy, if we could just slap everyone into neatly ordered groups like oh, race, then racial profiling would make sense. Gender bias would make sense because there would be scientific proof and basis or grounds for discrimination. For example: All accountants would be Asian. Hmmm....maybe that's why Enron happened. Those silly causcasians aren't good at math so that's why their company screwed up. We should let all the Asians take over. And those poor blacks. Don't they know that they are genetically inferior? Forget med school or law school. Stick to dancing and singing or sports. Maybe manual labor too if it's not too difficult mentally. And how about those Latinos? Can you even give me an accurate description of one? You see how this is flawed right? If I told a cop that I was mugged by a Latino chick, how would he recognize or draw a picture or describe it? Can anyone? Latino is probably one of the worst "racial" or whatever descriptions ever constructed. No two alike. Two famous Latinos look nothing alike: Sammy Sosa and Ricky Martin. Tell me: What physical traits do they share? How could anyone then, correlate mental traits to go with these supposed physical traits?

I think one of the problems in these type of discussions is the oversimplification of complex subjects. We could probably spend hours just trying to define "race" etc. I don't know how old you are, so you may not remember or know what I am talking about next. When I was in 8th grade, our biology book classified the human race in 3 categories: negroid, mongoloid, and caucasoid. In 10th grade, they added a 4th, australoid (I think it referred to the aboriginal group). 15 years later, in anthro class, we are informed that the previous classification is no longer valid etc and all this other stuff. That was a cool class, we got to study DNA, genetics etc and worked with a lot of primate skeletons. Anyways.... I felt like an idiot cause I was still stuck in the whole 3 (or 4) races mentality and I felt dated. :)

I think it's funny how so many people talk about genetics without really having the first clue what they are and how they work.

That aside, I don't think most people really understand how incredibly powerful culture can be in forming a person in terms of drive, motviation, and determination. And the traditional culture of many asian communities does not tolerate failure or anything less than perfection. Sure, there's lots of asian students who do not do well, but there you get into distinction between american asian etc, whatever. They have a very structured lifestyle in that case.

It doesn't matter what your genes are, we all know stupid people who make straight A's and geniuses who fail. It's about your environment, and most importantly, your motivation to do well that matters most.

On the genetics question: let's accept for the sake of argument that there are "math genes" and that "math ability" is a quantitative trait like height. Is it possible that the average "asian" has more math genes than the average person in the general population?

One way this could happen is through a founder effect. The founding "asian" population, purely by chance, might have had more math genes. But what is the likelihood? Well the variance in the mean of a quantitative trait scales with the inverse of the square root of effective population size. So if the genetic variance in math ability is about, say 20% of the mean, and if the founding population effective size was, say 1000, then the variance in the mean of the asian founding population would be around 0.02 of the mean mathematical ability. That's a pretty small number; in other words the founding population might have had a higher genetic ability than average by a few percentage points, purely by chance.

But even if this were true, this tiny difference would have been utterly obliterated by mutation in the 100,000 years or so since the asian population was founded. So the founder effect in the establishment of the "asian" population is probably incapable of producing any genetic basis to a mean difference in math ability observed today.

The only other possible mechanism is natural selection within the "asian" population. But there is no such thing as an asian population, rather there are many subpopulations that intermix within other "asian" populations to varying degrees, and that mix also outside the "asian" population to varying degrees. So if such selection existed, it would have to be uniform across a very large geographical area, and strong enough not to be swamped by the gene flow that has been ongoing within and without the "asian" population for the last 100,000 years. More likely any such selection would be very weak and obliterated by gene flow.

That doesn't mean that there aren't any genetic differences in other traits; most visible physical "asian" characteristics are indeed genetically based. The explanation for these I think is natural selection on reproductive fitness; human beings tend to choose mates based on facial features that resemble those that surrounded them as children. These features however are very superficial and certainly not linked to mathematical ability.

The same argument applies to any of the so-called "races".

That definition doesn't really work; you'd have all sorts of ridiculous "races", like red-haired people with freckles who sunburn easily.

Something is "scientifically meaningful" as long as it is sufficiently well-defined. Whether it is useful or not is another question, and that depends on what exactly you want to use it for.

I am actually of Ukranian and Russian descent, but I was using race in the common sense. Although not the definition preferred by physical anthropologists, it is easy to use and mostly unambiguous. Feel free to substitute another definition if you want. I have no idea which is most useful for what I'm talking about.

It doesn't. Or at least it's not obvious that it does. It is possible that genes controlling some physical characteristics could also influence mental ones. Who knows?

The simpler and more likely mechanism is that different races have slightly different 'gene pools.' People of one race tend to marry into the same race (at least until very recently). This has been happening for so long (where "race" initially had a geographic meaning) that the features we now identify with each group were able to become nearly universal. Why shouldn't other characteristics have evolved along with the obvious ones in this time? It is known, for example, that certain genetic problems are much more prevalent among particular races.

It might make sense if all [insert group A] were better than all of [insert group B] at some task, but that's a ridiculous oversimplification.

I don't ever remember a group of Asians marching around with signs and placards demanding equal rights and justice.

Like the Celts?

Race is relative. While there is a greater difference in phenotypic expressions between a black man from south Africa and an Eskimo due to longer periods of genetic isolation from each other and different environmental factors driving some of those factors, but there are obvious differences. When people say someone looks Swedish or Irish, or Italian, they are not talking about their system of government, but characteristics. The fact that they all have white skin makes them Caucasian, and genetically there is less difference between other 'races' but they are still distinct in their genetics. We officially draw the line on race around skin color, but that is just as arbitrary as any other method.

Some environmentalists are trying to use such differences in animals to prevent any sort of expansion. If they find a type of fish in a river with a single non-phenotypic genetic variant they are trying to argue its a sub-species and needs to be protected and that is a bit absurd.

Sure, the Celts would qualify by that definition, plus probably millions of other similar groupings.

Defining "race" by virtue of genetic clusters alone commits one to recognizing every family group as a different race.

Which is why race is relative. We base it off skin tone, but it could be based off anything. At some point our brains say 'close enough'.

Yes: it is arbitrary where you draw the line, and the traits you use to make any delineation are also completely arbitrary. I agree completely.

That is why your "best definition of race" doesn't have much utilitarian value.

It may be true that many people talk about genetics without really having the first clue what they are and how they work.

Personally, I think it's funny how so many people talk about "culture" without having the first clue what it is and how it works. "Culture" is so frequently tossed around as an explanation, but it isn't an explanation at all (any more than saying something is "genetic" or "evolved"). What are the specific environmental inputs that are represented by the concept of "culture" and how do they work to form "a person in terms of drive, motivation, and determination"? And how do these cultural factors accomplish this independent of any heritable factors? And how do we demonstrate this causal independence?

I didn't read all the shit about genetics because doing well in school doesn't really depend on being intelligent or having some smart gene. Doing well in school just needs a lot of hard work and good habits. That is basicly how most things work in life.

I asked my friend, a former tissue-typer at a human organ transplant facility, about this. He said that you could call it arbitrary, but that they had very well-defined guidelines for what is commonly called a "good match."

Less well-defined is the definition of a "dark" individual, versus a "light-skinned" individual, but that concept is useful as well, in regard to predicting skin cancer.

Both of these would appear to have utilitarian value to me.

Getting back to earlier statements, some years ago I saw a study whose results concluded that many American immigrants are what could be called "overachievers," and that it often carried over to the second generation.

By the third generation, statistically, there was very little difference in their performance in comparison to those whose grandparents, etc. were born here. I haven't seen this in years, and a brief seach didn't locate it. Sorry. :o

So now I'm on both sides of the genetics debate. :crazy:

Yes, but I don't see that this has anything helpful to say about "race". There are dark skinned lineages on every continent.

Same response. I don't see what this has to do with "race" as it is usually applied to human populations. There's no such thing eg. as a Hispanic kidney.

"Hispanic" is a very poorly-defined race. In the United States, anyone from the palest Jew from Argentina to the darkest baseball player from the Dominican Republic is considered Hispanic simply because they speak the same language. Basing a race on language is foolish.

Yes, that's why Hispanic was eliminated as a race in the 2000 U.S. Census. Yet it is still commonly used (eg. on affirmative action checklists).

And the same can be said for all the "official" races recognized by the U.S. None is a monophyletic grouping.

I think the best interpretation of human genetic variation is a clinal interpretation: most traits vary clinally (ie. gradually) from place to place. There are no sharp distinctions, no boundaries, and no barriers to complete mixing.

Aren't people from brazil considered hispanic too, and they speak portugeze, so it isn't just language.

No. There was a movement that wanted to use the word "Lusitanic" for Portuguese-speakers in the way that "Hispanic" is used for Spanish-speakers, but it failed.

I think they're referred to as "Hispanio?"

In any case, it just show how ridiculous labels are. Brazilians are incredibly diverse. There is no stereotypical Brazilian; they run the gamut of all phenotypes and physiological traits.

Latinos are not monolithic nor unified. The rivalries between Cubans and Puerto Ricans, Colombians and Bolivians, Peruvians and Ecuadorians, Chileans and Argentinans, Guatemalans and Hondurans (I'm not sure here) etc..etc... are notorious. The only think they sort of share is Spanish language and even that differs form place to place.

If I were of Mexican descent, and needed a kidney, I would certainly appreciate it if the appropriate agency concentrated their search among other Mexicans, as opposed to including fair-skinned redheads in their efforts.

While your desire to do away with racial classifications has much to be said for it, I can see the potential for harm as well.

"Mexican" is not a race. It would be even better if they found someone within your own family, but your own family is also not a separate race.

Genetic relatedness certainly does create genetic clustering, but if you defined race by genetic relatedness, you either (1) end up with every family being a separate race; or (2) your divisions again are completely arbitrary.

Many black people play the black card like its their birthright. Some do not, and I have great respect for them. But low class, trashy people, black white asian hispanic whatever, are low class trashy people. Black culture promotes this--it's getting to the point where whites are discriminated against for jobs and scholarships and college acceptances because poorer, minority students have to be accepted to sate the vocal race-x card bullshit.

Blah.

Just so that I understand you clearly...

WTF is "The Black Card..?" Whites being discriminated against..? Have you lost your mind..? Black culture promoting the low class..? Man, that statement is full of ignorant shit...Wow...

The Black Card aka The Race Card is when someone brings up their race as the reasoning for whatever is happening to them be it not getting a job, someone not dating them, being arrested, etc. It has become quite popular to do this even if race has nothing to do with what happened since many people fear being labeled as racist.

Whites are discriminated against in pretty much any government and many privately owned businesses and industries. racial quotas being the main reasons. Some people call it "diversity" but its really just making sure there are a higher percentage of minorities represented in a given area beyond actual "diversity" levels in average america thereby they cannot be labeled as racists.

Has he lost his mind? This is always up for debate :p

Black Culture promoting the lower class- this is shown in the glorification of "ghetto", "thug", "street" life where its usually the violent undereducated criminals who are the main characters. Some black culture isnt like this at all, but this is what most of america gets to see and many easily led people fall into.

Man, that statement is full of ignorant shit- Well, I get to deal with statements full of ignorance when dealing with people just spouting things they have no facts on other than what someone else told them is the truth. This also is not a good way to win an argument, calling someone else's statement such things without any facts or even ideas of your own to refute them is usually seen as the losing side.

I'd bet neither of you are black...Neither of you have a clue, as to what it's like to be black, and you never will...

You should both refrain from saying things that you have NO idea what they mean, and what they may mean to someone else...You saying a white person is being discriminated against is about as far fetched as us having a black president...

It isn't discrimination, when people hire people based on what they can identify with...If you are a middle aged white male, and grew up in a suburbian area, you are more likely to hire someone your same age and of the same background...And since the average business or corporation is ran by middle aged white men, how do you expect minorities to get ahead..? Whites are the majority by far in this country, non sub ethnic groups included...

Also, are you aware that Afro Americans are the only race that hasn't recieved some sort of reparation for widespread nation wide abuse and oppression of a race..? Do you find fault with the Native American being able to go to any major university free of charge..? What is the difference between the way native americans were treated and the way blacks were treated..?

I hate when people speak like they haven't ever picked up a history book...Slavery lasted 400 years...There was no 40 acres and a mule...This country was built upon the backs of my ancestors, and they were hung and whipped, raped and murdered, yet it is easy for you to forget faces like young Emmit Till...Black men hung, and burned alive while women and children stood laughing and smiling...

I don't expect you to know what that's like...Don't just assume that every time someone plays a race card, they are exaggerating...yYou can't look at society, and tell me that white don't have an advantage...It has NOTHING to do with racism...But if you think racism is dead...Shit, you got that all wrong...Even though slavery has been outlawed by the federal gov't since the 1800's, the state I live in just abolished slavery from the state law, it BARELY PASSED, by a 3-2 vote...This was in the 1990's...

And about that thug life and all that...Please don't EVER say that in a public forum again, you have NO idea what it says for your character to make such a brass assumption...

So, you are saying that it is alright for someone to be hired that isnt as highly qualified as a supposed "majority" person simply based upon the fact that he isnt part of the "majority". How about we all go by quality of work, experience, personality... you know, things that will actually be useful for the business? That doesnt work for me in my mind. Perhaps you are one of those people who thinks that you can only be racist against those of a specific "minority"? Yes the whites are the majority in this country, at least for now. Then again, "white" counts for anyone who isnt black or asian.
Reparations is basically false in my mind too when so many generations has gone by. Not every people, race, person who has been enslaved throughout history gets something to show for it. Take equality where it stands and quit asking to be given more.

I also remember black men like those of Haiti where around 40,000 white people were killed in their revolt now look at the country. "Black men hung, and burned alive while women and children stood laughing and smiling..." let me ask you if even your worst enemy was burning alive, would you laugh and smile? I think this is an exaggeration for the women and children at least. I also remember that the only place in the world where slavery is still widespread is africa.

States also have alot of useless laws on the books that are barely known of and never enforced, the fact that they didnt do it til now is more than likely an oversight that was touted all too much in the press by the person pushing the bill. So this proves nothing but your legislatures inefficiency in book keeping which seems to be nationwide.

I have looked at history books and I have read a bit about most of history, slavery isnt a new thing, but i wonder something. When will people quit using it as an excuse? This is honestly something i want to know. How many more generations before it doesnt matter any more? when you can answer me that honestly with a time other than never, I think blacks in general will take a step forward.
You know, I'm not black and never said I was but this just means that you inversely know nothing about being white or anything other than what you are.

"And about that thug life and all that...Please don't EVER say that in a public forum again, you have NO idea what it says for your character to make such a brass assumption..."
Watch MTV or even BET to see exactly what I mean, if you dont see it then maybe you are just used to it. Glorification of crime is degredation of society, simple as that. I also know exactly what it says about my character, I speak what I believe to be the truth.

and to end this, this is far off topic of the original post and I apologize for helping the thread deviate. If you wish you further discuss facts beliefs and such AYHJA just send me a message :D

Jaco...You missed the point entirely...You probably can't even properly define racism, no offense...Not many people can...

The point is that you hire what you can relate to...The studies have been done, I'm not making this stuff up...If two people apply for a job that have the same qualifications, an insane amount of time the employer will hire a person w/t same ethnic background as them...I'm not saying that's wrong or racist...Consider this...

The vast majority of professional athletes in football are afro american...The same is true, for collegiate football...Would you be so brash as to say that of the hundreds of thousands of scholarship athletes that pass through college can't coach the sport they played..? That's nonsense...There are 3 Division I head coaches that are Afro American...3 out of 112...

That's because you don't know your ancestors...I do...We are not that many generations gone from slavery...


WHAT..??? If there were ever at time in HISTORY where 40K white people were killed, it was by other white people....Wikipedia rocks...And as far as laughing and such goes, you don't have to ask me that...Ask the people that were burning that poor boy alive in the FIRST Waco Texas incident...Better yet, post me a link of ANY group of people celebrating over the inhumane treatment of whites...I bet you that I can post 100 pictures before you find 10...

So...You're saying it's an excuse for BARELY passing an already defunct law..??? LoL...I see, you've never been to Mississippi before, or read nothing about the state...

An excuse..???? I hope you NEVER experience a personal loss, because once you multiply that times 400 years, you may get an idea...These were my kin, and the kin of others being treated worse than pets...It will ALWAYS matter, because people like you refuse to accept what happened...It's not Afro Americans so much, as it is people saying, "Get over it already," When the shit is still going on...But, it's not stopping you, so you don't care...Touche...

It wasn't me making these wild assumptions about whites, that started this...Scroll up...

Glorification of crime isn't a damn "black" thing...I bet that the people that write the Sopranos are aren't black, the makers of the Grand Theft Auto Video Games aren't black...CSI Miami and all that...? WTF are you talking about..? What about all these movies coming out that "glorify" dudes walking around with big ass guns, shooting people..? Are they black..? That's something you can attribute to SOCIETY Son, please...Stop it...

MTV and BET...Shit...Do you think the majority of the people that are buying the very music and what not you speak of...Are black..? LOL...Heh...

Just because I'm not ashamed of the fact that I grew up in a poor enviroment, obviously unlike all others, I'm glorifying it..? That makes sense to you..?

I would like to know how you percieve my misinterpretation of the term racism. I also agree that people are more than likely to stick to what they know, human nature. I dont see much relevence in the fact that there are few black coaches compared to a severe majority of black players, then again I dont watch college football to know anything about it.

I do know my ancestors quite well as i have done research because i believe in knowing all you can about your history to learn from it especially those directly related to you.

You know, i can't find a link to any site about the haitian revolt that reports actual numbers besides the fact that any frenchman caught was slaughtered. The inhumane treatment of whites by other than whites you mean? because we have been killing one another quite efficiently for quite a long time. Other than whites doing it i can point to any anti white group the same as you can point to any anti black group *shrug* so goes the hate.

Yes, I go to Mississippi quite often seeing that I live very near New Orleans and my state is just as messed up as yours I promise you.

Yes, an excuse. That is all it will be for anyone who says they were directly impeded by it in modern america. But you think slavery is still going on? or perhaps i am misreading you.

I never said glorification of crime is exclusively a black thing, i was only expounding upon the answer i already gave to your question towards kangaeru "Black culture promoting the low class..?" and yes, i see current trends in black music as such a thing. I never said anything about who buys this music since i know who does it and so do the record executives spewing out the stuff to the white kiddies. I also grew up poor, that has nothing to do with this argument.

good to meet a black man from mississippi willing to talk race semi-calmly :thumbsup: and once again i apologize to the original poster and wont further my threadjacking.

I'd forgotten all about the threadjacking bit, I'd like to aplogize as well, though, this is somewhat on topic...

LoL...OK, it's ALL the way off topic...Sorry...

Just so you know, I am calm, it just amazes me sometimes the things I read, and it just takes a little more explanation sometimes to get things to come out the right way...This is the internet, and it's hard to communicate these things...

PM on the way... :D

jaco, AYHJA - I just wanted to say that was quite possibly the most interesting thing I've read here for a while. Thanks to you both for having the balls to stand up and say what you think whilst at the same time keeping an appropriate tone.

Seriously, I'm impressed, and have come away with a much better understanding of both points of view. :D

It ALWAYS help to hear someone else out, even if you don't agree...Tempers don't have to flare, and flaming need not happen, as long as the two folk involved are smart, and open minded... ;)

I wish there was a forum for this type of thing...It would probably answer lots of questions between races, and improve point of view...

Under the Mission category we have a Coming Together forum for "Bridging the gender gap." Perhaps we should add a couple more forums in that category, one for bridging the "race" gap, and one for bridging the "religion" gap? That pretty much covers the major areas causing strife for humanity, and the major areas that will be fundamental to any social evolution that we achieve.

[QUOTE=Marvelous Marv]If I were of Mexican descent, and needed a kidney, I would certainly appreciate it if the appropriate agency concentrated their search among other Mexicans, as opposed to including fair-skinned redheads in their efforts.
QUOTE]


why? If i was in such dire straights I would be more concerned with compatibility with respect to blood type, rather than cultural types. I'd hate to have to go through that operation more than once because my preference for a close cultural match was rejected by my body.

while the current hip hop scene is not to my liking (rock chick here) I can understand that musical styling evolves, simmers, remixes and comes to the fore in different forms over time.

Wasn't the blues and r&b originally considered to be a low class type of music? The calypso & pan bands in trinidad were originally 'low' class outlets of energy... punkers in New York and England in th '70's were not necessarily students classical music.

I don't think that black culture promotes low class tendencies. Maybe the disenfranchised milieu tends to exercise outlets which are considered 'hobbies' or non-serious by those who have to focus on the path to success (education, good job/career) to such an extent that they become good at it, and therefore successful in their own way, regardless of race.

One of the smartest person I’ve met was a classmate in my Jr. high school. This guy scored 798 out of possible 800 (8 subjects/100's of questions) twice in three years. Last I’ve heard he is now a head pediatrician in one of the most acclaimed hospital in Taiwan. I recalled he wasn’t a “true” math wiz but he studied very, very hard.

Math was never one of my favorite subjects but I did quite all right in school. I had taken adv. Algebra, adv. Trig. and pre calculus before coming to US so math classes were easy for me, other than the word problems.

I wouldn’t say Asians are better in math - genetically, but Asian kids are generally pushed harder by their parents. The parents themselves often first generation Asian Americans. They know what it’s like to struggle first hand. Incidentally many of these parents were graduate students, highly intelligent but limited by the language barrier.

And there it is...Nuff said...